oh my lord this is probably the best post PU has had since forever
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Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Anty
- Start date
Magnemite said to get stuff in before final update and tier shift, so Krokorok from c- to C/C+
This thing has fair bulk coupled with eviolite which lets it be a different taunt/rocks user than suicide leads like Barbaracle and Monferno. Knock off+EQ is a fun STAB combo that lets it check a lot of threats, and with intimidate it's enough for an offensive-ish balance team to check some threats and lay down rocks. The main drawbacks are being weak to water/fighting/a lot of other stuff and the inability to run pawniard with it, but it's definitely solid. It also can take on things like lead golem and dwebble. I'd say C+ is a good spot, but if this isn't enough testimonial then C is fine, but this definitely should go over Gabite and Glaceon. I know GasQuake has used it a lot, so if I missed something good about it then point it out pls
edit- can we drop ditto? Like I get it can copy, but I really have never found a time when it would be a good mon to use. Like, why B for it, just meh
This thing has fair bulk coupled with eviolite which lets it be a different taunt/rocks user than suicide leads like Barbaracle and Monferno. Knock off+EQ is a fun STAB combo that lets it check a lot of threats, and with intimidate it's enough for an offensive-ish balance team to check some threats and lay down rocks. The main drawbacks are being weak to water/fighting/a lot of other stuff and the inability to run pawniard with it, but it's definitely solid. It also can take on things like lead golem and dwebble. I'd say C+ is a good spot, but if this isn't enough testimonial then C is fine, but this definitely should go over Gabite and Glaceon. I know GasQuake has used it a lot, so if I missed something good about it then point it out pls
edit- can we drop ditto? Like I get it can copy, but I really have never found a time when it would be a good mon to use. Like, why B for it, just meh
Could Clefairy be moved up? The Specially Defensive Rocks set as well as CM set are pretty solid and it's a bulky mon overall while it's far more splashable onto teams than anything in its current ranking. it's a good check to poli/fighting types and provides utility with thunder wave, knock off, and SR. idk it just seems a lot better than most of the current B- mons (it should probably move up to B or B+).
Yeah I just don't see why clefairy is b- lol
edit- also ditto is good to help stop setup sweepers such as np tales, stout in sand etc etc. it's niche but it has a specific role and performs it the best.
agreeing w/ fletchling not being ranked because lol
Yeah I just don't see why clefairy is b- lol
edit- also ditto is good to help stop setup sweepers such as np tales, stout in sand etc etc. it's niche but it has a specific role and performs it the best.
agreeing w/ fletchling not being ranked because lol
Imo drop Murkrow to at least B-
I actually had the opportunity to use it and it isn't nothing of special, and most of the times I just felt like literally playing 5v6. Its defences are horrid, and the fact that it has to run Life Orb and a Naive nature to at least run a Mixed set, which in my opinion is the best one, and put up some work, just makes its bulk even worse. Its damage even when carrying a Life Orb and full Attack investment is not that high, outscaled by other offensive Pokemon in the tier, and its offensive movepool also lacks a reliable Dark-type move outside of Dark Pulse lol. All of that makes it pretty much mediocre and difficult to splash in a team, as its only use most of the time is relegated to only spam Thunder Wave, with Prankster, which is in my opinion is a very good niche and still keeps Murkrow not THAT bad along with its high Speed, but still not worthy of a B rank.
Here's the final update before the upcoming tier shift:
Ninetales from S to A+
Barbaracle from A+ to S
Roselia from A+ to S
Leafeon from A+ to A-
Misdreavus from A to A-
Mightyena from A- to B+
Mr. Mime from A- to B+
Pelipper from A- to B+
Torterra from A- to A
Armaldo from B+ to B
Avalugg from B+ to B
Basculin from B+ to B
Beheeyem from B+ to B
Chatot from B+ to B
Leavanny from B+ to B
Marowak B+ to B
Swanna from B+ to B
Stunfisk from B+ to A-
Arbok from B to B+
Carbink from B to B-
Ditto from B to B-
Drifblim from B to B-
Fraxure from B to B+
Heatmor from B to B-
Hippopotas from B to B-
Lunatone from B to C+
Sawsbuck from B to B+
Torkoal from B to B-
Volbeat from B to B-
Clefairy from B- to B
Dusknoir from B- to C+
Flareon from B- to C+
Gogoat from B- to C+
Simisage from B- to B
Lots of changes this time around because people were saying that the rankings were a bit inflated, which I don't disagree with.
Ninetales from S to A+
Barbaracle from A+ to S
Roselia from A+ to S
Leafeon from A+ to A-
Misdreavus from A to A-
Mightyena from A- to B+
Mr. Mime from A- to B+
Pelipper from A- to B+
Torterra from A- to A
Armaldo from B+ to B
Avalugg from B+ to B
Basculin from B+ to B
Beheeyem from B+ to B
Chatot from B+ to B
Leavanny from B+ to B
Marowak B+ to B
Swanna from B+ to B
Stunfisk from B+ to A-
Arbok from B to B+
Carbink from B to B-
Ditto from B to B-
Drifblim from B to B-
Fraxure from B to B+
Heatmor from B to B-
Hippopotas from B to B-
Lunatone from B to C+
Sawsbuck from B to B+
Torkoal from B to B-
Volbeat from B to B-
Clefairy from B- to B
Dusknoir from B- to C+
Flareon from B- to C+
Gogoat from B- to C+
Simisage from B- to B
Lots of changes this time around because people were saying that the rankings were a bit inflated, which I don't disagree with.
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Okay since some people have been wanting explanations on a few of these changes, I'm going to post them here. Feel free to respond if you disagree with a change or my reasoning, that's what the thread is for.
Roselia rose to S rank because of many traits that make it a defnining Pokemon of the PU metagame. First and foremost, it fits on and does well on almost any team you put it on thanks to its ability to run both offensive and defensive sets very effectively, its great typing that lets it check threats like Poliwrath, Simipour to an extent, Tangela, Raichu, and slower Rock and Ground types like Golem and Probopass, and most importantly its ability to set Spikes or Toxic Spikes. PU is a very hazard-centric metagame right now, and Roselia is a huge part of that. As previously stated, Roselia fits well on almost any team, meaning that just about any team can make use of Spikes or Toxic Spikes, which is further augmented by the fact that PU's hazard removers have all seen a pretty heavy decline in both popularity and effectiveness lately, not to mention the fact that they're quite difficult to fit on a team. Roselia also has a few other very useful tools going for it, including the amazing utility of Sleep Powder, its good power and offensive typing, and Natural Cure. There isn't one particular thing about Roselia that makes it S rank worthy, but everything it has adds up to make it a very metagame defining Pokemon.
Barbaracle moved up to S rank as well because of the fact that if it sets up and the opposing team is worn down a small amount, it's almost guaranteed to sweep any team lacking the rare and otherwise relatively inferior Scarf Simipour or Raichu (the former of which fails to beat Jolly Barbaracle). This wouldn't normally be that big of a deal, but Barbaracle's deceptive bulk with White Herb (which it can easily afford to use over a boosting item as unlike Carracosta it does not rely on the weak Aqua Jet to sweep), ability to force out a lot of Pokemon with its good coverage and power, and the fact that one of the best Pokemon in the tier can use Memento let it set up on a surprising amount of the tier. The following calcs illustrate Barbaracle's bulk:
252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barbaracle: 96-114 (33.6 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Knock Off does less because White Herb gets used up)
252+ SpA Poliwrath Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 110-132 (38.5 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barbaracle: 74-87 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Rapidash Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barbaracle: 190-224 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With Memento support, it can easily set up on anything lacking a super effective move (and even quite a few things that do, such as this: -2 252 Atk Ursaring Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barbaracle: 116-138 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO), and one it does set up it's incredibly difficult to stop, making it an incredibly effective Pokemon in the metagame and one that is worthy of S rank.
Ninetales is moving down because of the recent increase in popularity of faster Pokemon such as Rapidash, Jumpluff, Zebstrika, Simipour, and Floatzel. This means that Ninetales is hard-pressed to sweep most offensive teams, as does the fact that it has few setup opportunities in the current metagame. It's still a great Pokemon, but it's no longer quite as metagame defining it once was.
Leafeon dropped because the metagame is very prepared for it in general. Like with Ninetales, a lot of prominent threats outspeed it, and it has few setup opportunities outside of forcing things out. In general, Leafeon is hard pressed to sweep at all outside of sun in this metagame, much more so than Ninetales, which is the big reason why it dropped.
Stunfisk rose because it is a fantastic check to Zebstrika and Raichu, both of which are very hard to effectively prepare for otherwise, as well as being an excellent spreader of paralysis that is especially useful in such an offensive metagame. Most of the Pokemon that are immune to paralysis do not want to switch into Stunfisk as well, since they tend to be either walled by it or hit hard by Earth Power, further increasing its effectiveness at spreading paralysis.
Most of the rest of the changes were made because we (galbia, anty, and I) thought the rankings were getting a bit inflated, so we moved a lot of stuff down a rank in order to be more accurate with the rankings as a whole and avoid ranking inflation.
Anyway, I apologize for making sudden changes like this without providing explanations, but from now on I'll try to explain at least the important changes, and remember that as always you can ask me why any particular change happened or post in disagreement to it.
Roselia rose to S rank because of many traits that make it a defnining Pokemon of the PU metagame. First and foremost, it fits on and does well on almost any team you put it on thanks to its ability to run both offensive and defensive sets very effectively, its great typing that lets it check threats like Poliwrath, Simipour to an extent, Tangela, Raichu, and slower Rock and Ground types like Golem and Probopass, and most importantly its ability to set Spikes or Toxic Spikes. PU is a very hazard-centric metagame right now, and Roselia is a huge part of that. As previously stated, Roselia fits well on almost any team, meaning that just about any team can make use of Spikes or Toxic Spikes, which is further augmented by the fact that PU's hazard removers have all seen a pretty heavy decline in both popularity and effectiveness lately, not to mention the fact that they're quite difficult to fit on a team. Roselia also has a few other very useful tools going for it, including the amazing utility of Sleep Powder, its good power and offensive typing, and Natural Cure. There isn't one particular thing about Roselia that makes it S rank worthy, but everything it has adds up to make it a very metagame defining Pokemon.
Barbaracle moved up to S rank as well because of the fact that if it sets up and the opposing team is worn down a small amount, it's almost guaranteed to sweep any team lacking the rare and otherwise relatively inferior Scarf Simipour or Raichu (the former of which fails to beat Jolly Barbaracle). This wouldn't normally be that big of a deal, but Barbaracle's deceptive bulk with White Herb (which it can easily afford to use over a boosting item as unlike Carracosta it does not rely on the weak Aqua Jet to sweep), ability to force out a lot of Pokemon with its good coverage and power, and the fact that one of the best Pokemon in the tier can use Memento let it set up on a surprising amount of the tier. The following calcs illustrate Barbaracle's bulk:
252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barbaracle: 96-114 (33.6 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Knock Off does less because White Herb gets used up)
252+ SpA Poliwrath Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 110-132 (38.5 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barbaracle: 74-87 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Rapidash Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barbaracle: 190-224 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With Memento support, it can easily set up on anything lacking a super effective move (and even quite a few things that do, such as this: -2 252 Atk Ursaring Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barbaracle: 116-138 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO), and one it does set up it's incredibly difficult to stop, making it an incredibly effective Pokemon in the metagame and one that is worthy of S rank.
Ninetales is moving down because of the recent increase in popularity of faster Pokemon such as Rapidash, Jumpluff, Zebstrika, Simipour, and Floatzel. This means that Ninetales is hard-pressed to sweep most offensive teams, as does the fact that it has few setup opportunities in the current metagame. It's still a great Pokemon, but it's no longer quite as metagame defining it once was.
Leafeon dropped because the metagame is very prepared for it in general. Like with Ninetales, a lot of prominent threats outspeed it, and it has few setup opportunities outside of forcing things out. In general, Leafeon is hard pressed to sweep at all outside of sun in this metagame, much more so than Ninetales, which is the big reason why it dropped.
Stunfisk rose because it is a fantastic check to Zebstrika and Raichu, both of which are very hard to effectively prepare for otherwise, as well as being an excellent spreader of paralysis that is especially useful in such an offensive metagame. Most of the Pokemon that are immune to paralysis do not want to switch into Stunfisk as well, since they tend to be either walled by it or hit hard by Earth Power, further increasing its effectiveness at spreading paralysis.
Most of the rest of the changes were made because we (galbia, anty, and I) thought the rankings were getting a bit inflated, so we moved a lot of stuff down a rank in order to be more accurate with the rankings as a whole and avoid ranking inflation.
Anyway, I apologize for making sudden changes like this without providing explanations, but from now on I'll try to explain at least the important changes, and remember that as always you can ask me why any particular change happened or post in disagreement to it.
Can we just discuss about Servine moving up to B/B+?
With Eviolite & the right Team support, ie. Screens, like Reflect & Light screen w/ Meowstic, it is extraordinarily bulky.
And by utilizing HP rock or HP Fire, it can damage almost all pokemon neutrally.
Leaf Storm puts its Spa Sky high at 438 which is exactly a base of 150.
Especially with a move that has 130 BP and gets stronger and stronger, Servine's bulkiness makes up for its average/decent speed.
Nothing will take a Leaf Storm at +2 +4 +6 nicely to the face.
Bulkiness stats:
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Servine: 218-260 (83.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Slaking Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Servine through Reflect: 181-213 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Servine through Light Screen: 144-169 (55.1 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Servine through Reflect: 181-214 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Because a Modest nature at 150 Base Spa is enough to portray its massive Atk stats, I won't go in detail for that.
Yes, Servine needs support from screens and other team support, and needs one Leaf Storm to get going, but B- is way too low for that ranking. With its massive Special Attack and Bulk, it can easily sweep large portions of unprepared teams.
Additionally, although there are a few counters, like possibly Regice & Roselia, Servine often carries HP Fire or HP rock for Regice that will deal a decent chunk with +2.
Servine moves up to B/B+
With Eviolite & the right Team support, ie. Screens, like Reflect & Light screen w/ Meowstic, it is extraordinarily bulky.
And by utilizing HP rock or HP Fire, it can damage almost all pokemon neutrally.
Leaf Storm puts its Spa Sky high at 438 which is exactly a base of 150.
Especially with a move that has 130 BP and gets stronger and stronger, Servine's bulkiness makes up for its average/decent speed.
Nothing will take a Leaf Storm at +2 +4 +6 nicely to the face.
Bulkiness stats:
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Servine: 218-260 (83.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Slaking Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Servine through Reflect: 181-213 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Servine through Light Screen: 144-169 (55.1 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Servine through Reflect: 181-214 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Because a Modest nature at 150 Base Spa is enough to portray its massive Atk stats, I won't go in detail for that.
Yes, Servine needs support from screens and other team support, and needs one Leaf Storm to get going, but B- is way too low for that ranking. With its massive Special Attack and Bulk, it can easily sweep large portions of unprepared teams.
Additionally, although there are a few counters, like possibly Regice & Roselia, Servine often carries HP Fire or HP rock for Regice that will deal a decent chunk with +2.
Servine moves up to B/B+
Well I have been seeing recently Passho berry Ninetales... So, I guess is a kinda valid calc... Also, Servine at +2 can take more than half of Ninetales health with HP Rock... And that would be the real option since HP Fire isn't that good on PU, considering that one of the two relevant steel types (probopass) is hit harder by Leaf Storm...
Even with that, I think Servine is good enough for B but not for B+ I guess...
See ya!
Even with that, I think Servine is good enough for B but not for B+ I guess...
See ya!
agreeing w/ the servine rise, it can pressure teams altho it's a bad mon in general and the meta does not favour it. i mean that would normally prolly be a reasoning for drop but it's still up there w/ B ranks mons for sure; it has a solid niche and is usable in case you're not able to break through bulkier teams (it provides a solid wincon vs. slower balance etc.) it does have its problems but lol i feel that b rank is definitely not pie in the sky :O
Mightyena to A-
B+ is way too much restrictive for Mightyena let's be real, in my opinion this should just be brought back to A- at least. It has enough speed and an hella good ability in Moxie, which allow it to rack up boosts with ease coming in revengekill against slow paced foes, and tear apart defensively-oriented and stall teams, if you pair all of this with an equally good movepool, which includes moves such as Sucker Punch, that makes Mightyena effective even against offensive teams, and others such as Play Rough and Iron Tail, to effectively hit common switch ins such as Poliwrath and Togetic, what you get is an actually good lategame sweeper and cleaner, which with the departure of Throh and Sneasel has gotten even better so yeah.
Zweilous to B+
I was just lurking around VR a little more and saw that Fraxure was B+, when Zweilous was actually B. Now, I'm not saying Fraxure is bad or anything, because I tried it and it actually worked really well as a Dragon Dance sweeper in my team, just wanted to point out that for me these two should be at an equal rank, being both the only two viable dragons in the tier and have p much similiar roles, with the addiction that Zweilous can also run a Specially Defensive set, which is always appreciated, as it makes it also splashable on defensively-oriented, but most of the time is blind thanks to Hustle, which isn't a totally drawback, as it makes it also hit extremely hard along with a Choice Band, therefore I think Zweilous too is worth a B+ rank.
B+ is way too much restrictive for Mightyena let's be real, in my opinion this should just be brought back to A- at least. It has enough speed and an hella good ability in Moxie, which allow it to rack up boosts with ease coming in revengekill against slow paced foes, and tear apart defensively-oriented and stall teams, if you pair all of this with an equally good movepool, which includes moves such as Sucker Punch, that makes Mightyena effective even against offensive teams, and others such as Play Rough and Iron Tail, to effectively hit common switch ins such as Poliwrath and Togetic, what you get is an actually good lategame sweeper and cleaner, which with the departure of Throh and Sneasel has gotten even better so yeah.
Zweilous to B+
I was just lurking around VR a little more and saw that Fraxure was B+, when Zweilous was actually B. Now, I'm not saying Fraxure is bad or anything, because I tried it and it actually worked really well as a Dragon Dance sweeper in my team, just wanted to point out that for me these two should be at an equal rank, being both the only two viable dragons in the tier and have p much similiar roles, with the addiction that Zweilous can also run a Specially Defensive set, which is always appreciated, as it makes it also splashable on defensively-oriented, but most of the time is blind thanks to Hustle, which isn't a totally drawback, as it makes it also hit extremely hard along with a Choice Band, therefore I think Zweilous too is worth a B+ rank.
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It beats top tier threats such as
Poliwrath - Max Attack Waterfall Hurts
Ninetales - Twave + Seismic Toss generally, be sure to be healthy
Simipour - TWave + Seismic Toss, be careful of Knock Off
Rotom-F - You stall it out easily and break Substitute with Seismic Toss if Substitute + Pain Split
Zebstrika - Seismic Toss and this tickles you back
Kadabra - TWave + Seismic Toss
Raichu - Seismic Toss, kinda loses to Nasty Plot but you 3HKO or 2HKO with hazards
Regice - Twave + Seismic Toss
Floatzel - The Specs set is walled
Victreebel - INSOMNIA MEANS NO SLEEP AND TWAVE + SToss
and a lot of lower rank shit
It is kinda like Grumpig for the utilities it brings with Thunder Wave and the Fighting resistance but has the bulk and recovery Lickilicky has. It also has great options such as Baton Pass and Nasty Plot to be more effective on balance.
that is what I'm talking about! Bringing in a new threat to help spice things up & keep people on their toes. I'll be sure to try this out in the future. Thanks for posting this dude.YELLOW JEWISH MAN (Hypno) should be B-
It beats top tier threats such as
Poliwrath - Max Attack Waterfall Hurts
Ninetales - Twave + Seismic Toss generally, be sure to be healthy
Simipour - TWave + Seismic Toss, be careful of Knock Off
Rotom-F - You stall it out easily and break Substitute with Seismic Toss if Substitute + Pain Split
Zebstrika - Seismic Toss and this tickles you back
Kadabra - TWave + Seismic Toss
Raichu - Seismic Toss, kinda loses to Nasty Plot but you 3HKO or 2HKO with hazards
Regice - Twave + Seismic Toss
Floatzel - The Specs set is walled
Victreebel - INSOMNIA MEANS NO SLEEP AND TWAVE + SToss
and a lot of lower rank shit
It is kinda like Grumpig for the utilities it brings with Thunder Wave and the Fighting resistance but has the bulk and recovery Lickilicky has. It also has great options such as Baton Pass and Nasty Plot to be more effective on balance.
And it kind of checks Jumpluff with thunder-wave since it avoids the 2HKO from acrobatics pretty easily and is immune to sleepYELLOW JEWISH MAN (Hypno) should be B-
It beats top tier threats such as
Poliwrath - Max Attack Waterfall Hurts
Ninetales - Twave + Seismic Toss generally, be sure to be healthy
Simipour - TWave + Seismic Toss, be careful of Knock Off
Rotom-F - You stall it out easily and break Substitute with Seismic Toss if Substitute + Pain Split
Zebstrika - Seismic Toss and this tickles you back
Kadabra - TWave + Seismic Toss
Raichu - Seismic Toss, kinda loses to Nasty Plot but you 3HKO or 2HKO with hazards
Regice - Twave + Seismic Toss
Floatzel - The Specs set is walled
Victreebel - INSOMNIA MEANS NO SLEEP AND TWAVE + SToss
and a lot of lower rank shit
It is kinda like Grumpig for the utilities it brings with Thunder Wave and the Fighting resistance but has the bulk and recovery Lickilicky has. It also has great options such as Baton Pass and Nasty Plot to be more effective on balance.
Also, I don't know if this is worth mentioning, but SubSalac Belly Drum Hypno is a usable set. The problem with Hypno is that it is really really passive and gives stuff like Probopass free turns to set up hazards or Togetic trying to defog, and this set can turn the tables on people trying to take advantage of how passive Hypno usually is. Since hypno forces switches on common pokemon like Poliwrath and 4 attacks Simipour, it isn't hard to get a free sub on the switch and then belly into salac mode. Drain Punch ofc is the only reason why the set is usable and makes it really hard to revenge-kill with a scarfed special attacker if it gets to abuse the recovery. Drain punch is also kind of nice just for bopping Pawniard on the switch.
Still, I don't think Hypno is worth B-, which is kind of a high ranking, when it faces such enormous competition from Licky, Pig, and Togetic and lacks a status-healing move. Hypno is very much a "niche" pokemon due to its passivity, and I mostly consider it an alternate choice for stall teams rather than a main choice.
Nastypass seems interesting though, but Hypno has an insane amount of illegal move combinations so we will have to check that out ^_^
Victreebel from B+ to A-
Sun is getting pretty popular, as people are realizing how mindless and good it is, and this guy is one of the main reasons for all of that. Victreebel is able to carry an entire game by itself, just with the help of Sun, as it provides to Victreebel the access to a way scary coverage in boosted Fire-type Weather Ball and Solar Beam, which along with Sludge Bomb and Sleep Powder, allow Victreebel to easily tear apart offensive teams and open holes even in defensively-oriented teams, therefore making easier the sweep for other teammates, such as Leafeon, which is A-, while this is B+ lol I can't realize why. Also, I want to note that Victreebel isn't totally Sun-dependant, as it can also run the mixed attacker set, which is extremely threatening, but of course less effective. This thing basically has no counters and teams, especially offensive ones, hardly find checks for it, A- worthy please.
also why did Volbeat drop with weather getting popular and finally recognised as good? Bring it back up.
Sun is getting pretty popular, as people are realizing how mindless and good it is, and this guy is one of the main reasons for all of that. Victreebel is able to carry an entire game by itself, just with the help of Sun, as it provides to Victreebel the access to a way scary coverage in boosted Fire-type Weather Ball and Solar Beam, which along with Sludge Bomb and Sleep Powder, allow Victreebel to easily tear apart offensive teams and open holes even in defensively-oriented teams, therefore making easier the sweep for other teammates, such as Leafeon, which is A-, while this is B+ lol I can't realize why. Also, I want to note that Victreebel isn't totally Sun-dependant, as it can also run the mixed attacker set, which is extremely threatening, but of course less effective. This thing basically has no counters and teams, especially offensive ones, hardly find checks for it, A- worthy please.
also why did Volbeat drop with weather getting popular and finally recognised as good? Bring it back up.
Victreebel is insane, he may kinda rely on Sun to be at its best, but it's extremely worth it.Victreebel from B+ to A-
Sun is getting pretty popular, as people are realizing how mindless and good it is, and this guy is one of the main reasons for all of that. Victreebel is able to carry an entire game by itself, just with the help of Sun, as it provides to Victreebel the access to a way scary coverage in boosted Fire-type Weather Ball and Solar Beam, which along with Sludge Bomb and Sleep Powder, allow Victreebel to easily tear apart offensive teams and open holes even in defensively-oriented teams, therefore making easier the sweep for other teammates, such as Leafeon, which is A-, while this is B+ lol I can't realize why. Also, I want to note that Victreebel isn't totally Sun-dependant, as it can also run the mixed attacker set, which is extremely threatening, but of course less effective. This thing basically has no counters and teams, especially offensive ones, hardly find checks for it, A- worthy please.
also why did Volbeat drop with weather getting popular and finally recognised as good? Bring it back up.
You see, Victreebel against some teams ( most notably the one that lack priority that isn't Vaccum Wave from Specs Wrath ) is just a win condition due to his sheer power & the fact that it OHKOes or 2HKOes literally everything.
The Mixed Attacker outside of Sun is also very overlooked, and can put quite a lot of work, with Victreebel's coverage being still very good, allowing him to 2HKO a majority of the metagame with a specific move. Even SD+Sleep Powder deserves a mention with the existence of Sucker Punch, making Victreebel a much harder threat to revenge kill than you'd actually think (even through Dark Spam is gaining popularity)
and even unbosted, Victreebel's attacks will still hurt quite a lot due to his good Atk.
Okay making one small update before the tier shift:
Leafeon from A- to A
Mightyena from B+ to A-
Volbeat from B- to B
Hypno from C to B-
Sun stuff is something I decided on after people had a lengthy discussion on skype; I moved Leafeon up because it's versatile enough outside of sun, and I didn't move Victreebel up because it was decided that it should be a rank above Volbeat because it relies on its support to be good (not viable, but good). If you guys want to continue the argument in this thread that's cool, but this is what I decided on for now.
Leafeon from A- to A
Mightyena from B+ to A-
Volbeat from B- to B
Hypno from C to B-
Sun stuff is something I decided on after people had a lengthy discussion on skype; I moved Leafeon up because it's versatile enough outside of sun, and I didn't move Victreebel up because it was decided that it should be a rank above Volbeat because it relies on its support to be good (not viable, but good). If you guys want to continue the argument in this thread that's cool, but this is what I decided on for now.
Fully Evolved Pokemons only are ranked in this E Rank.
Pikachu being NFE, he's just unranked.
I discussed a lot of potential nominations with some other people, so here's a big drop of things we talked about.
Marowak from B to B-
Hippopotas from B- to C+
Dusknoir from C+ to B-
Glaceon from C to D (c- if your lame)
Meowstic-M from C+ to B-
I'm also gonna drop another reminder to at least consider moving Krokorok from C- to at least C, it hasn't just been forgotten the whole submission has been totally ignored. Anyway, something really controversial but pretty much everybody except the people on the council who actually decide these things agree with this.
Roselia back to A+
Seriously, this is just the council liking Roselia this much. Spikes are good. We know. But Roselia itself certainly doesn't warrant S if Ninetales doesn't. It has good bulk and nice offensive options + sleep powder, but is still 2HKOd by pretty much the entire offensive tier unless fully specially defensive, with the exception of Raichu and Zebstrika (good for rose but it still takes plenty from their coverage and can even be fucked by physical or encore variants of raichu). You can just look through the top viable mons and see that everything smashes it. It also stacks typing with some good mons like Gourgeist and Quilladin and Torterra, meaning that you cant run another physically bulky grass type and thus have a much harder time with shell smashers. When trying to switch into rose, it's fairly easy to do so because so many good mons on offense can come in. Sleep powder is annoying, but most teams have something to do about that with the prevalence of Jumpluff, and sleep takes away from some other good moveslot (stun spore is good though). You cant really find a team that doesn't naturally just build in 3 checks to rose minimum without even trying. Oh, and it doesn't really do much unexpected as shown by the recent TNBT nominations. Not every mon has to do different things, but having at least a little variety can't hurt. And just to scrape the bottom of the barrel, it has a shit matchup vs sun, so until that's banned that's one less reason to use it (but the last two weren't really main arguments). I discussed this with a lot of other people who agreed, so if they have anything else to say then please add it on.
Marowak from B to B-
Marowak used to be one of the tier's premier wallbreakers, but it kinda sucks now. It's easily checked by almost every offensive mon in the tier and especially has issues with Torterra. There are just a lot of good stallbreakers now like Ursaring, Simipour and Vigoroth making stall pretty hard to pull off, and it nearly always has a Marowak switchin anyway. Against offense it just sucks because slow and no very bulky. Torterra is just better now with its extra grass typing, ability to hold different items, defensive sets and access to Rock Polish, and it's becoming harder and harder to ever want to fit Marowak onto a team.
Hippopotas from B- to C+
This is mostly because sand just got worse with the dropping of Pawniard and Probopass to check Stoutland as well as the rise of opposing better weathers. Dusknoir and Gourgeist-XL are also pretty cool mons rn too, so there's that. I guess Haunter being gone helps, but Scarfchu getting better also hurts sand. Just meh.
Dusknoir from C+ to B-
Dusknoir's bulk, coverage and priority just makes it a really good option as a spin blocker for offensive and balanced teams. With the recent discovery of spell tag+will-o-wisp it's much harder to switch into as well, and trick is also fun for crippling things. Most physical walls do well against it, but more offensive teams have a hard time taking it on and it can hit things like Torterra and Pelipper that generally work well as defensive glue on balance with Ice/Thunderpunch. It's just kind of easy to slap on a team, not really overuse typings and have a solid offensive mon that can also check most offensive mons in the tier with its excellent bulk.
Glaceon from C to D (c- if your lame)
Almost every other ice type is just better than this, if not every. It's strong, but it doesn't have coverage, speed, or any cool things in its move pool outside of maybe wish. Rotom has its cool dual stab and wisp, vanilluxe isn't a bad scarfer whatever mag tells you, regice has amazing coverage with rock polish and even lapras has solid bulk and freeze dry along with being a nice simipour check. This just sucks at life.
Meowstic-M from C+ to B-
Just ignore this if we finally get smashpass banned
I'm also gonna drop another reminder to at least consider moving Krokorok from C- to at least C, it hasn't just been forgotten the whole submission has been totally ignored. Anyway, something really controversial but pretty much everybody except the people on the council who actually decide these things agree with this.
Roselia back to A+
Seriously, this is just the council liking Roselia this much. Spikes are good. We know. But Roselia itself certainly doesn't warrant S if Ninetales doesn't. It has good bulk and nice offensive options + sleep powder, but is still 2HKOd by pretty much the entire offensive tier unless fully specially defensive, with the exception of Raichu and Zebstrika (good for rose but it still takes plenty from their coverage and can even be fucked by physical or encore variants of raichu). You can just look through the top viable mons and see that everything smashes it. It also stacks typing with some good mons like Gourgeist and Quilladin and Torterra, meaning that you cant run another physically bulky grass type and thus have a much harder time with shell smashers. When trying to switch into rose, it's fairly easy to do so because so many good mons on offense can come in. Sleep powder is annoying, but most teams have something to do about that with the prevalence of Jumpluff, and sleep takes away from some other good moveslot (stun spore is good though). You cant really find a team that doesn't naturally just build in 3 checks to rose minimum without even trying. Oh, and it doesn't really do much unexpected as shown by the recent TNBT nominations. Not every mon has to do different things, but having at least a little variety can't hurt. And just to scrape the bottom of the barrel, it has a shit matchup vs sun, so until that's banned that's one less reason to use it (but the last two weren't really main arguments). I discussed this with a lot of other people who agreed, so if they have anything else to say then please add it on.
s/o to megazard for doing all the lower ranks
However i strongly disagree with roselia and find it to be much more 's' than both costa and baracle. I know mag said the rank definitions arent perfect however the S one describes roselia perfectly:
'These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.'
Roselia can perform two roles very successfully as the bulky one can switch into so many special attackers like poli/raichu/etc while the offensive set can check a decent portion of spatkers while hitting very hard, but the selling point of both sets that pushes rose to s is spikes and tspikes; both are amazing due to the lack of hazard removal (hazard setters are just better than removers in this meta) and how amazing toxic spikes are. Rose obviously has flaws like a low defense and weakness to fire types, however its defense isnt bad when invested and ever s-rank has types which just screw it (both smashers are just grass type switchins). I would honestly argue that roselia defines the metagame as much as poliwrath (now) as it what makes this metagame fairly hazard dominant.
I feel that costa and baracle should drop to a+, as the metagame is changing in an unfavourable way to these two. Although these pokes dont have many stops when boosted, they are having a much harder time setting up. Looking at s/a ranks the things they set up on are; pawn (costa hates losing life orb), rapidash (wisp varrients are more common), mightyena (only costa- and its rare for a costa to be out against a +0 yena), choiced locked stoutland,and togetic depending on set. Of course there are pokes that they force out (like regice) but that just goes into a prediction argument meaning you cannot conclude that the smashers set up on these, and some of the pokes they set up on put it in priority range. Also i have noticed checks for these pokes have been getting more usage (torterra/tangela/gourg), and i have even seen random unstandard moves to beat them like seed bomb arbok and even natural gift dodrio. There is no doubt that this metagame is just getting more prepared as even if they do set up, they still have many soft checks (not even counters i have listed above) like jumpluff/floatzel/simi for costa and scarf raichu/saws/simi for baracle (there are more ofc). Now that these pokes are no longer auto 6-0s (even kingler12345 packs a costa check!!!!) its often better to run other set up sweepers which give them competition for a moveslot.
Im not gonna mention smashpass rn and not gonna mention much about sun (tho like all the sweepers should be a+ only bc they require a lot of support). However i do think sawsbuck should move up to a-, not only because of sun which puts it almost on par with victreebel, but also because the choice scarf set is now amazing as it has lost a bit of competition in haunter, and also people are starting to realise how nice scarfers are and saws can RK scary pokes like fraxure and barbaracle as even unboosted it hits pretty hard. I can also see victreebel rising (this is more so to do w/ sun as it has less competition than leaf and sawsbuck do), and the lo 3 attacks set is like b/b+ anyway so sun is good enough to push it over the edge (sorry about last time :{|})
The top ranks are looking pretty solid rn and i feel having only those two s ranks is for the best as they both are the best pokes in the metagame due to their utility and offensive/defensive presence. I do think zeb is the next best but i know everyone will disagree and i dont think it is on either of their levels (esp now every one is using stunfisk).
Servine is bad
However i strongly disagree with roselia and find it to be much more 's' than both costa and baracle. I know mag said the rank definitions arent perfect however the S one describes roselia perfectly:
'These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.'
Roselia can perform two roles very successfully as the bulky one can switch into so many special attackers like poli/raichu/etc while the offensive set can check a decent portion of spatkers while hitting very hard, but the selling point of both sets that pushes rose to s is spikes and tspikes; both are amazing due to the lack of hazard removal (hazard setters are just better than removers in this meta) and how amazing toxic spikes are. Rose obviously has flaws like a low defense and weakness to fire types, however its defense isnt bad when invested and ever s-rank has types which just screw it (both smashers are just grass type switchins). I would honestly argue that roselia defines the metagame as much as poliwrath (now) as it what makes this metagame fairly hazard dominant.
I feel that costa and baracle should drop to a+, as the metagame is changing in an unfavourable way to these two. Although these pokes dont have many stops when boosted, they are having a much harder time setting up. Looking at s/a ranks the things they set up on are; pawn (costa hates losing life orb), rapidash (wisp varrients are more common), mightyena (only costa- and its rare for a costa to be out against a +0 yena), choiced locked stoutland,and togetic depending on set. Of course there are pokes that they force out (like regice) but that just goes into a prediction argument meaning you cannot conclude that the smashers set up on these, and some of the pokes they set up on put it in priority range. Also i have noticed checks for these pokes have been getting more usage (torterra/tangela/gourg), and i have even seen random unstandard moves to beat them like seed bomb arbok and even natural gift dodrio. There is no doubt that this metagame is just getting more prepared as even if they do set up, they still have many soft checks (not even counters i have listed above) like jumpluff/floatzel/simi for costa and scarf raichu/saws/simi for baracle (there are more ofc). Now that these pokes are no longer auto 6-0s (even kingler12345 packs a costa check!!!!) its often better to run other set up sweepers which give them competition for a moveslot.
Im not gonna mention smashpass rn and not gonna mention much about sun (tho like all the sweepers should be a+ only bc they require a lot of support). However i do think sawsbuck should move up to a-, not only because of sun which puts it almost on par with victreebel, but also because the choice scarf set is now amazing as it has lost a bit of competition in haunter, and also people are starting to realise how nice scarfers are and saws can RK scary pokes like fraxure and barbaracle as even unboosted it hits pretty hard. I can also see victreebel rising (this is more so to do w/ sun as it has less competition than leaf and sawsbuck do), and the lo 3 attacks set is like b/b+ anyway so sun is good enough to push it over the edge (sorry about last time :{|})
The top ranks are looking pretty solid rn and i feel having only those two s ranks is for the best as they both are the best pokes in the metagame due to their utility and offensive/defensive presence. I do think zeb is the next best but i know everyone will disagree and i dont think it is on either of their levels (esp now every one is using stunfisk).
Servine is bad
I would have to continue supporting Servine because I want to list more points:
Servine loves Sticky Web, and after one Sticky web, it hits 435 speed, faster than basically every PU pokemon, except Ninjask.
Additionally, there's counters to everything, but comparing the other pokemon in B-, Servine outplays all of them, it definitely deserves to be at least B.
This amazing replay:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-231272598
Servine loves Sticky Web, and after one Sticky web, it hits 435 speed, faster than basically every PU pokemon, except Ninjask.
Additionally, there's counters to everything, but comparing the other pokemon in B-, Servine outplays all of them, it definitely deserves to be at least B.
This amazing replay:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-231272598
Just going to post something short as we already discussed Servine, so won't go in depth on the Pokemon itself. Sorry but the things you brought to the table, counting the replay, are pretty much irrelevant nowadays into PU. Sticky Web is not that great at the moment, as you can't afford losing a teamslot for a nearly useless Pokemon to set up something that is pretty much gonna be removed, and even if you manage to do it, Servine still finds an incredible difficulty in managing to sweep, you posted that replay, but I also want to note that in the battle you relied a lot on parahax to sweep your opponent(if he didn't get full paralysed with Arbok he woulda probably KO Servine), which yet had a bad team and sacced the only Pokemon that outpaced Servine, Drifblim, so he nearly had no answers to it. If against an at least decent team, you'll find out that Servine can be stopped really easily, because of its shallow coverage and Special Attack before a boost, not counting its subpar typing, which makes it have few switch in opportunities, and just needs a full team around it to perform decently?? not even that good, when there are WAY better options that can nearly sweep a team by themselves.