[QC REJECTED 1/3] Arcanine

[Epikhairz]

such power
much fire
many delay (sorry)
wow

[Pros]

<ul>
<li>Good 110 base Attack</li>
<li>Decent 95 Speed</li>
<li>Wide and powerful physical movepool consisting of STAB Flare Blitz, Close Combat, and Wild Charge</li>
<li>Access to one of the best priority moves - ExtremeSpeed</li>
<li>Has a good support movepool consisting of Will-O-Wisp and Morning Sun</li>
<li>Can use both its primary abilities (Intimidate and Flash Fire) excellently and both are good depending on what you want Arcanine to do.</li>
</ul>

[Cons]

<ul>
<li>90/80/80 defenses are not too good for OU standards.</li>
<li>Weak to Stealth Rock and also vulnerable to other hazards.</li>
<li>Predictable</li>
<li>Takes heavy recoil from Flare Blitz and Wild Charge, especially when used in conjunction with Life Orb</li>
</ul>

[Set Recommendations]

<p>name: Physical Attacker<br />
move 1: Flare Blitz<br />
move 2: ExtremeSpeed<br />
move 3: Close Combat<br />
move 4: Wild Charge<br />
ability: Intimidate / Flash Fire<br />
item: Life Orb / Choice Band<br />
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe<br />
nature: Adamant / Jolly</p>

• Uses extremely potent and wide physical movepool to spam attacks ruthlessly
• Flare Blitz is the main STAB and puts holes in most Pokemon, especially after a Flash Fire boost
• ExtremeSpeed can pick off faster/and or weakened foes due to +2 priority rarely being prioritized by anything else
• Close Combat gets rid of Rock-types who resist Flare Blitz and ExtremeSpeed
• Wild Charge gets rid of pesky Water-types such as Tentacruel
• Intimidate can weaken physical attackers on the switch, thus making Arcanine harder to take down, while a successful Flash Fire boost will cause Arcanine to fire off absurdly powerful Flare Blitz attacks
• Life Orb is the preferred item for versatility, though Choice Band allows Arcanine to hit extremely hard, having a good chance to OHKO Talonflame after Stealth Rock damage
• Would like something to get rid of Water-, Ground-, and Rock-types that Arcanine is weak to, such as Mega Venusaur and Chesnaught are good at this.
• WishPasser such as Vaporeon, Sylveon, or Florges are good teammates to heal off the excessive recoil damage this set takes
• Rapid Spin / Defog user such as Tentacruel or Mandibuzz are good teammates to clear hazards
• 29 HP IVs can be used with Life Orb variants to lessen its recoil damage

<p>name: Physically Defensive<br />
move 1: Flare Blitz<br />
move 2: Roar / Wild Charge / ExtremeSpeed<br />
move 3: Morning Sun<br />
move 4: Will-O-Wisp / Toxic<br />
ability: Intimidate<br />
item: Leftovers / Rocky Helmet<br />
evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD<br />
nature: Impish</p>

• Intimidate + Will-O-Wisp bolsters Arcanine's defense and makes it surprisingly bulky for a Pokemon with base stats so frail that is able to check/counter physical juggernauts such as Talonflame
• Wide movepool both in support and offense allows it to cripple physical attackers and walls, while also bringing down special attackers with its strong physical moves
• Flare Blitz gives it a powerful STAB attack that Arcanine can spam on others
• Roar can be used instead to phaze out threats to this set or to prevent certain Pokemon from setting up
• Wild Charge can be used instead as it allows Arcanine to hit Talonflame and other Water- and Flying-types hard even without Attack EVs
  
• ExtremeSpeed is a reliable priority move and can be used instead to pick off faster and/or weakened foes
  
• Morning Sun gives it recovery, but is harder to use in OU with Hippowdon and Tyranitar being everywhere
• Will-O-Wisp cripples non-Fire type physical attackers severely, rendering them possibly incapable of dealing serious damage for the rest of the match
• Toxic can be used instead to cripple non-Fire types and other walls as well as killing them off faster with the poison damage stacking up
• Leftovers is preferred for constant recovery, though Rocky Helmet will put the hurt on Mega Kangaskhan
• Prefers teammates that can get rid of weather and/or get sun up so Arcanine can use Morning Sun effectively (Charizard Y and Ninetales)
• Rapid Spin / Defog user such as Tentacruel or Mandibuzz are good teammates to clear hazards
• 248 HP EVs produce a Leftovers number while the other EVs maximize physical bulk and a tad bit of special bulk

[Checks and Counters]

• Checks and counters may vary between both sets because they both fill vastly different roles
• Bulky Water-types such as Blastoise and Slowbro sponge attacks easily and fire back with STAB Water-type attacker
• Gyarados (Intimidate + Water STAB) - needs to watch out for Wild Charge
• Chandelure absorbs Flare Blitz and is immune to ExtremeSpeed and Close Combat, but needs to watch out for Crunch
• Mega Charizard X is neutral to or resists all of Arcanine's usual moves, and can fire off Earthquake
• Hippowdon takes on the physical attacker set easily, but is easily crippled by physically defensive set

 

[Shroomisaur]

such power
much fire
many delay (sorry)
wow

Honestly I was beginning to wonder if you were still gonna write up Arcanine, but this still gave me a laugh! Anyway, let me share my thoughts...

On the offensive set, Wild Charge should probably be alone in the final slot. You say Crunch is for Ghosts, but a neutral Flare Blitz is stronger than a SE Crunch, and Gourgeist/Trevenant are weak to Fire anyway. Crunch only covers Chandelure, while Wild Charge gives more important coverage, OHKOing Gyarados, 2HKOing 252/252+ Tentacruel, and even 2HKOing 252/252+ Mega Blastoise and Vaporeon (w/ Choice Band). It's also stronger against Slowbro, having a good chance to 2HKO and guaranteed with SR.

You should also mention that Adamant CB ESpeed deals (49.2 - 57.9%) to 192/0 Talonflame, which is an 87.5% OHKO with SR of course.


On the defensive set, I don't like Extremespeed much. Without investment, ESpeed is terribly weak and can only pick off severely weakened sweepers (it deals a pitiful 36% max to Greninja, for example). Arcanine would be complete setup fodder for many boosters, including SD Talonflame, something Arcanine should counter. Wild Charge would fix that problem...

0 Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 83-98 (24 - 28.4%)
0 Atk Arcanine Wild Charge vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 186-220 (53.9 - 63.7%)

...however, there are plenty of other boosters to worry about. Roar is an excellent option to force out setup Pokemon, and it helps Arcanine spread burns and hazard damage. I'd probably slash it over ESpeed there.

 

[flamewizzy21]

Back in Gen 4, I used to like to pair it with Scizor to absorb Fire attacks with Flash Fire. I used to run Arcainine more mixed so that if Scizor ran into problems with a physical tank, Arcainine could help bail it out. Idk how it'd fare now, but it used to function decently well.
(i.e. I recommend pairing with Scizor as a teammate.)

 

[TONY MONTANA]

I think Rocky Helmet could be used on the defensive set. It's nice to get that damage on u-turning genesects, scizors and other u-turning pokemon. Mega Kangashkan doesn't like that Rocky Helmet, too. On some teams it could be worth loosing the extra recovery that leftovers provides.

just my two cents

 

[Fuzznip]

I wouldn't even slash Crunch. All Ghosts are roasted by Flare Blitz anyways, aside from Chandelure which isn't entirely relevant in OU atm. Arcanine needs Wild Charge in almost all cases, preventing the likes of Gyarados, Talonflame, and Azumarill from getting free switch-ins basically.

Also slash Rocky Helmet on the defensive set. It's definitely a legitimate and worthwhile option over Leftovers.

 

[Anartya]

<li>90/80/80 defenses are not too good for OU standards.</li>

I have made a post regarding Physically Defensive Arcanine here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-the-thread-no-shitty-gimmicks.3489313/page-6

Feel free to add anything from there.

But I'd like to mention that Physcially Defensive Arcanine, once intimidate is taken into account is very bulky by OU standards.

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 160-188 (38.09 - 44.76%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 138-164 (36.03 - 42.81%) -- 96.41% chance to 3HKO

I mentioned this in the link given above.

 

[Epikhairz]

changes implemented

for the defensive set the move slashing might be a little weird so if you disagree post in thread pls ty

 

[Anartya]

For physically defensive set, Morning Sun is a must. Roar should be slashed after Wild Charge.

 

[Epikhairz]

ok done. That was a concern of mine too

 

[Shroomisaur]

For physically defensive set, Morning Sun is a must. Roar should be slashed after Wild Charge.

Agreeing with this. Morning Sun should be alone in that slot, with Roar slashed in the second slot as I suggested earlier. I would probably make the slashes like:

- Flare Blitz
- Morning Sun
- WoW
- Roar / Wild Charge / Espeed

Oh, and for the offensive set you should probably put the token 4 HP EVs into Def, and mention that Life Orb variants should use a 29 HP IV for less recoil. I greatly prefer CB over Life Orb on that set because Arcanine gets worn down quickly and needs that extra power, although I'll leave that up to QC to decide!

Edit: semi-greninja'd. Also, no mention of special attacks anywhere?

 

[Epikhairz]

whoops forgot to change the 4 EVs to Defense from my Omastar analysis which I c/p'd here.

Also made other changes though I am going to keep Toxic as a slash for now, unless QCs have other ideas or whatever

also idk how to implement IVs in this set format so I just mentioned the 29HP in set comments

 

[SOMALIA]

Arcanine had issues running a defensive set in the 5th gen underused metagame (I am very experienced in 5th gen UU so this isn't a hunch or speaking from a theoretical point of view) so with all the more weather (especially sand) it finds it very hard to both recover off enough damage and find a safe turn to do so. In practise this thing is alot harder to use and I am doubting the legitimacy of it. Have you tested this? You say this thing handles Talonflame well, however if you lack Wild Charge an SD variant will get solid damage on you and you have to make sure there arent hazards on your side of the field or you are in trouble. You can argue that with its recoil from BB and the possible Rocky Helmet it will take shitloads but what about Arcanine itself. I understand that this looks promising in theory with Intimidate+Fire-typing but its putting alot of stress on the team to support it. You can hit it hard if you have Wild Charge..but then you lack Roar meaning that other offensive threats wreck you and you cant phase them such as CharizardX and Dragonite....

In brief, defensive Arcanine has no place currently with the nature of the 'metagame' due to its weakness to every hazard, unreliable recovery and weakness to many common types in addition to requiring too much support itself. The offensive set should be the only set.

You yourself state in the opening sentences,

<li>90/80/80 defenses are not too good for OU standards.</li>

alexwolf Plus ShootingStarmie PK Gaming ShakeItUp Fuzznip dragonuser opinions?

 

[Epikhairz]

I have tested both the sets I posted (I used the attacker set more but still). The defensive set works OK as one of the few physically defensive Fire-types, though I would say without a shadow of a doubt it is hard to use and requires an immense amount of support. However, if you can use it well, Intimidate + status will beef up Arcanine significantly on physical attackers, and Gen 6 introduced a lot more of those

Of course it might not be good enough to warrant its own set in the preview in the eyes of QC because of its flaws and need for support. If so, let me know.

 

[ginganinja]

IDK why I would use Arcanine in OU. Can someone tell me before I flat out reject?

 

[PK Gaming]

There's no appeal to using Arcanine in OU. It's not terrible by any means, but there's reason to justify using it in standard.

QC Rejected (1/3)

 

[flamewizzy21]

IDK why I would use Arcanine in OU. Can someone tell me before I flat out reject?

He doesn't do amazing in OU; he's probably going to be UU or something. But he can function in OU, should you choose to. Not a whole lot of things get Extreme Speed to inb4 all these Pranksters and Gale Wings Talonflames and other priority BS.

 

[ginganinja]

ok yea so pretty much no reason to use it then

QC REJECTED 2/3

 

[SOMALIA]

I feel that its offensive set has some merit but needs tweaking. Will test further, hopefully it isnt rejected again before that.

 

[Cheeze Ballz]

It didn't really gain much from this Gen, did it? Alot of Pokemon can drive this pokemon up the wall like Garchomp's EQ or Terrakion's Rock Slide being Choice Banded. But this Legendary Pokemon can still scrape the floor with a lot of good Pokemon out their like Scizor and a maybe to OU newcomer Azumarill will get 2HKO'ed with coverage.

Flare Blitz is the best move there but with horrible recovery, this Pokemon's gonna have poo brain with so many recoil damage. Skarmory get's owned almost being beat but the sturdy would of stopped ya anyway. (Hope for Burn) and then Lucario, Breloom plus Klefki if your lucky are dropped instantly too. Agree with someone else when they say that this move will One-Hit a lot of ghosts. Also watch out for Venus-Mega as it now resists Fire by 50%. Wild Charge is a must because hitting flying and waters pretty hard gets Gyarados out of the way unless they MegaEvo it and 2HKO's Azumarill at 252 HP and Def Ev's if your Arcanine is Adamant also stopping the new Belly Drum move it's got, plus punching a massive hole in many other pretty bulky Waters. Close Combat knocks rock and Dark if you can't get around them. Tyranitar goes down in short notice. But out of all of them you should consider Ice Fang. This Checks ground, Gliscor and most Dragon mons in OU after Stealth Rock chips away at them though Garchomp will be an adversary but I seriously doubt they would go all physical defense and Hp with those listed mons and Dragons anyway so OHKO's are possible if you can catch 'em.

These are the moves I'd mainly use for a Physical set like yours.

I say Life Orb because it gets you to 2-Shotting and Mostly One-Shotting with the right coverage and I also hear Arcanine's good in Sunny teams. Just watch that health.

I just really hate the way that Arcanine has been getting the short end of the stick ever since Gen 3. It's not as bulk as others, it can still do with a little more moovpooling and even Aerodactyl got a Mega Evolution and that's squishy as goop! Hope this Pokemon makes it.

 

[UltiMario]

There's no appeal to using Arcanine in OU. It's not terrible by any means, but there's reason to justify using it in standard.

QC Rejected (1/3)

ok yea so pretty much no reason to use it then

QC REJECTED 2/3

Nononono. Physically defensive is a legitimate set. I've seen it on several stall teams already, and with Defog/Spin support and the fact that Arcanine will generally never be in against weather, it actually holds its own really well. The slashes with Roar/WoW need to be removed, AND Flamethrower > Flare Blitz on it... but this shouldn't be rejected. Physical attacker needs to go, but the defensive set SHOULD be on-site. It is incredibly underrated, and makes a very, very, VERY good alternative to Heatran for a Fire-type on stall. It's not standard or common by any means, but it's a very good set.

 

[PK Gaming]

Alright, i'll temporarily remove my rejection for now.

We'll test it on the ladder and see if it works as you say.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Yeah, I completely agree with UltiMario. You have to consider that if you're looking for a solid defensive Fire-type in a metagame without Heatran, Arcanine is a great choice. There's plenty of reason to use it: 2 excellent defensive abilities, reliable recovery, and WoW give it plenty of utility. I already explained the moveslot reasoning in my earlier posts.

As for the offensive set, again, Blaziken is gone and the metagame lacks Victini and Darmanitan. Char X is really the only powerful physical Fire-type around. Arcanine doesn't take up the Mega slot, can run CB, has powerful coverage moves, possesses powerful priority, and still has those two wonderful abilities to aid switching in.

 

[Fuzznip]

I like the defensive set. Arcanine's pretty damn bulky and it's definitely a viable defensive Fire-type, even over Heatran in the Pokebank metagame. Intimidate is generally an extremely useful ability and the support it provides is invaluable. I was running Flamethrower/Morning Sun/Will-O-Wisp/Roar. I feel like Arcanine needs these moves the most to ensure longevity, provide burn support, and to ensure it isn't setup bait by the likes of Talonflame. I'm still debating whether it needs to be using Flare Blitz, though.

 

[SOMALIA]

The defensive set does not work in practise as I have stated before. Avoid emphasising on its few positives that barely do it any good in the current metagame unless you tested it. After testing the offensive set I feel its good enough to be implemented.

Qc approved 1/3 this approval is only if there will be no defensive set or dismiss it if you plan on including the defensive set.

EDIT:

Well excuse me, but I did test it. I used it on a stall team and it didn't disappoint me. It literally tanks physical attacks really well--it's bulkier than 252 HP/ 252 Def Hippowdon with Intimidate. Sure it has a Stealth Rock weakness, but removing entry hazards nowadays is not even a difficult matter. It's also relatively bulky on the special side, so it's not completely vulnerable. Furthermore, because it's a Fire-type, it's not entry hazard bait against the likes of Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory. Lastly, the fact that it has Roar, Will-O-Wisp, Morning Sun, and Intimidate, it's a rather strong supporter in my opinion.

Supporter that threatens virtually nothing bar few defensive steel-types and cannot even take on the most common physical threats in the tier, right. The fact that it has the 4 moves you mentioned just emphasizes how much team support you need for this thing to be able to safely take 2 hits (1 could be boosted a good number of times) and then phase....what kind of answer is that. A base SpDef of 80 does not make it relatively bulky. I don't want to waste my time writing paragraphs supporting my case because I doubt it will change anything. I have tested this and concluded that it has no place in OU; the defensive set that is.

 

[Fuzznip]

The defensive set does not work in practise as I have stated before. Avoid emphasising on its few positives that barely do it any good in the current metagame unless you tested it. After testing the offensive set I feel its good enough to be implemented.

Qc approved 1/3 this approval is only if there will be no defensive set or dismiss it if you plan on including the defensive set.

Well excuse me, but I did test it. I used it on a stall team and it didn't disappoint me. It literally tanks physical attacks really well--it's bulkier than 252 HP/ 252 Def Hippowdon with Intimidate. Sure it has a Stealth Rock weakness, but removing entry hazards nowadays is not even a difficult matter. It's also relatively bulky on the special side, so it's not completely vulnerable. Furthermore, because it's a Fire-type, it's not entry hazard bait against the likes of Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory. Lastly, the fact that it has Roar, Will-O-Wisp, Morning Sun, and Intimidate, it's a rather strong supporter in my opinion.