R.I.P. Leads and Scouting

Pretty much what I mentioned before Nitpicker as far as what Dark Froslass said.

weaker players will suffer the most with this change.
 

Super

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I don't get this less prediction argument. If anything its less blind guesswork. You still have to predict what they could possibly switch in, and metagaming (what people call mindgames) will still exist. The difference is that the number of possibilities is much smaller.

Also, if this feature is significantly used, I can safely say that it will be implemented in Shoddy Battle's successor. If its impossible to turn off ingame, I can also safely say that ladders will run this feature. The point of these simulators is not to "make up" a game, but to make convenient what the cartridge games already provide us with.
 
Gotta love all the crazy overreaction to every bit of news/rumor. :) If true, it should help foster more creative sets for surprise factors and discourage bog standards up and down the lineup.

A tangential question: is it confirmed that the "see your opponent's six, pick your lead" format is still 6v6 in FC matches?
 
All of you people who think this is going to ruin the game need to try it before you make a judgment. Your doom and gloom is completely unwarranted. As someone who's played for years using this rule, I can tell you that it does promote prediction and skill.
This. Try it out before complaining. If it's bad, get used to it, adapt or, if if it's too horrid, witch I doubt, stick with the DPP meta. If it's fine, then that's it. Let's wait with the complaining untill we get a chance too try it out.
 
So once you've scouted your opponent's entire team, there's less prediction involved? What a joke.

Im pretty sure if you've scouted your opponent's ENTIRE team, that the only thing you'll be predicting afterwards is what movesets, and what your opponent will be doing himself instead of having to guess, and predict what he may send out.

yea, nice example.
 
I see both a few positives and negatives. Both have different types of skill, and both require guessing. I strongly dislike the fact that I can't hide my pokemon, and save one or two for a late game sweep. This was an awesome strategy. I know that it leaves my opponent at an equall disadvantage, as he can't hide a sweeper either. Both pretty much require the same guessing, except in 4th gen, you might try to guess a switching that hasn't been revealed yet. In both gens, you still need to predict correctly what will be switched in even if you know the pokemon on your opponent's team, like the Electivire senario that GLS posted, it can go wrong in both gens. I like the new skill of needing to select a lead based on the other person's team, it adds team building strategy. Overall, I think I will enjoy the 4th gen version more, but I say that without having played PBR or the 5th gen yet. Maybe I will prefer knowing the other team, only time will tell.
 
I love all these "try it out before judging" comments as if this was something so unique no one could fathom how it would work before doing it.
 

DarkSlay

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Wow, this is a pretty huge change. It seems that most of the skill and strategy, besides actually choosing moves in case a strategy goes wrong, will be determined before the match even begins. I'm pretty certain this won't make playing any easier: on the contrary, being able to have a consistent game plan constantly, while knowing your opponent's team (remember, just because you know your opponent's team doesn't mean you can effectively beat it easily), will take tons of patience, prediction, and strategy.

Another thing: unless I am mistaken, this still won't tell you movesets. Sweepers may lose the element of stalling until late game, but that doesn't mean that sweepers won't be unpredictable. There is a sizable difference between Swords Dance Lucario and Agility Lucario, and things like TSpikes Roserade and Sp. Defensive Spiker Roserade. Unless this metagame turns out to be extremely one-dimensional, there will still be a lot of surprises in store no matter what you send out.

While I believe leads may be "non-existant" because of this, I predict that most teams may have a "core lead" system, like Machamp + Heatran is currently. If a pair can take out a majority of the common leads, then this may be the way to go. Plus, this in itself takes extreme prediction. As far as scouting goes, I think scouting may be more useful than thought. While the OP is true in the fact that a whole team will be known, and the lead will be chosen immediately by scouting the whole team, this won't stop certain Pokemon shifts from happening. I predict that Roar / Whirlwind will still be used for its pHazing purposes, while U-Turn and the new Electric scouting move (Volt Change, is it?) will still be quite useful in easing prediction of switches.

It's a huge change that pretty much shifts the timing of prediction and skill, but overall, Pokemon will still remain as challenging as it was before.
 

TheMaskedNitpicker

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I love all these "try it out before judging" comments as if this was something so unique no one could fathom how it would work before doing it.
Knowing how it works in a mechanical sense and knowing how it affects gameplay and strategy are two entirely different things. With a change this major, untested theorymon is complete garbage. Anybody who claims otherwise has too high an opinion of their intelligence.

EDIT: I apologize. That was a bit overboard. What I'm trying to say is that while theorymon has its place and you might have an idea of what a effects a change will have, the proof is always in the pudding. There have been countless times here on Smogon where everybody was so sure that a new element would bring about a certain effect, only to be proven entirely wrong. If I recall correctly, most people predicted that Rhyperior would be an unstoppable force at the beginning of 4th gen. Whoops.
 

skarm

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Knowing how it works in a mechanical sense and knowing how it affects gameplay and strategy are two entirely different things. With a change this major, untested theorymon is complete garbage. Anybody who claims otherwise has too high an opinion of their intelligence.
Agreed. I might not be overly happy about this, but I am not going to sit here rambling on about what happens when x meets x or I use y. We'll just have to play it out. If anything this helps the VGC environment in single elimination formats. We've always been able to take Pokemon 5 and 6 that fit the team to counter the regular counters, but never known when to use them. :p
 
I have two points to make.

1. Zoroark will be more useful with this change. It will be much, much easier to fake someone out into thinking you have a Zoroark out since they know you have one. If the match is 4v4, you can completely leave it off your team and totally screw them over if they pack a counter to it on their team. This is probably the most useful "bench" pokemon that has ever existed.

2. At the VGC's, once you got past the first few rounds, the good players were able to determine what teams you were running by asking their friends in the audience. This provided them with an unfair advantage, as the other player may not have this knowledge. This eliminates this form of cheating from being possible, and I highly approve.
 

Havak

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I kind of disagree with it diminishing the idea of a solid lead - obviously I'll use some generation four leads as examples here:

I have Azelf, Heatran, and Swampert in my team. I know of this mechanic and stick neither of them in the lead position before the match, or put one that actually isn't my lead in the first position. Does my opponent know which is my lead? They still have to guess which it is most likely to be. Sure, some players will be able to make the more educated guess after seeing the rest of my Pokémon, but they'd still have to guess which my real lead is when it could be a number of things.

This is interesting, though. Especially in the VGC aspect, as if it works this way in local wireless games, it's something that will take full effect and mean that in the Regional VGC tournaments especially our two back up Pokémon will much more important.
 
I'd imagine it effects gameplay similarly to when you get rematched against a player you just battled on the ladder in shoddy. Maybe not exactly since you'll already know some movesets and strategies but some of these would probably have been pretty obvious just by looking at the Pokemon.

Also, isn't PBR a bit different than this? I thought it showed all 6 of your opponents Pokemon but each of you then only chose 3 to battle with. 5th gen wifi is still 6v6, right?
 
Wow, I knew this community feared change but some of the responses in this thread are just idiotic.

I welcome this change if only for the fact that it drives these people out of the community. Maybe without them we can finally re-tier stuff properly.
 

Moo

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Just remember that if they can see your team, you can see theirs. But this does really mess up predictions, and scouting, which was pretty important in Battling.
(sorry if someone pointed it out, but too many replies to reead through Dx)
 
Wow, I knew this community feared change but some of the responses in this thread are just idiotic.

I welcome this change if only for the fact that it drives these people out of the community. Maybe without them we can finally re-tier stuff properly.
Indeed. I may not be a fan of it, but I'll go on and continuing to play competitive pokemon regardless of the change. Adjustments have been made since I started back in gen 2, so I'll just get used to it. xP

Maybe it'll bring in some fresh blood as well. Maybe less one-minded players as well.
 
I love all these "try it out before judging" comments as if this was something so unique no one could fathom how it would work before doing it.
Well, too me there's more than that. Firstly I'm not the most experienced around here, so I don't know how much actually will change, and don't feel able to make an educated guess. Secondly I prefer a "don't worry, be happy" approach to this. Why be so negative when there's clear oppinions on it being good? On the other hand I don't want to be overly excited in case I dislike the change only to get disappointed in th end.
 
Im pretty sure if you've scouted your opponent's ENTIRE team, that the only thing you'll be predicting afterwards is what movesets, and what your opponent will be doing himself instead of having to guess, and predict what he may send out.

yea, nice example.
It's like talking to a brick wall.

pre·dict (pr-dkt)
v. pre·dict·ed, pre·dict·ing, pre·dicts
v.tr.
To state, tell about, or make known in advance, especially on the basis of special knowledge.
v.intr.
To foretell something; prophesy.

If you don't know anything in advance, it's not prediction, it's complete guesswork. My point is once you have knowledge, it doesn't mean it's turned dumb and predictable. If you think it is ABC, like you're telling us, then all we had to is scout and counter everything. It doesn't work that way.
 
Also, isn't PBR a bit different than this? I thought it showed all 6 of your opponents Pokemon but each of you then only chose 3 to battle with. 5th gen wifi is still 6v6, right?
The default rules for random wi-fi are PBR style: see the opponent's full roster of 6, pick your 3 (for singles) or 4 (for doubles) or 6 (for triples).

In friend code matches you can play 6v6 in any mode.
 

TheMaskedNitpicker

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Whatever you say, I'll bow out as I lack the "credentials" to discuss this it seems.

Edit: I'm not saying anything doom and gloom here. I never said I would never play again or anything. All I've said is I don't look forward to it.
I wasn't trying to say that you couldn't contribute. I just take strong issue with the idea that someone can know exactly how this change will play out and know exactly how much they'll enjoy the change without ever having played with it.

Also, isn't PBR a bit different than this? I thought it showed all 6 of your opponents Pokemon but each of you then only chose 3 to battle with. 5th gen wifi is still 6v6, right?
From what I've heard, WiFi random matches are 3v3 for single battles. I'm almost positive there's a way to do a 6v6 singles match with Friend Code wireless. Hopefully there will be a way to play 3v3 matches with Friend Codes as well, but I don't know for sure.

I was planning on starting another thread supporting the idea of having 3v3 be one of the standard metagames, but I wanted this thread to run its course first. I didn't think it prudent to address both issues right away, what with so many people threatened just by this change. Baby steps, baby steps...

EDIT:
In friend code matches you can play 6v6 in any mode.
Cool. Good to know. Do you have the option to play 3v3 in Friend Code matches?
 
It's like talking to a brick wall.

pre·dict (pr-dkt)
v. pre·dict·ed, pre·dict·ing, pre·dicts
v.tr.
To state, tell about, or make known in advance, especially on the basis of special knowledge.
v.intr.
To foretell something; prophesy.

If you don't know anything in advance, it's not prediction, it's complete guesswork. My point is once you have knowledge, it doesn't mean it's turned dumb and predictable. If you think it is ABC, like you're telling us, then all we had to is scout and counter everything. It doesn't work that way.
Did you even look over your example after you posted this definition? For your example, you stated that an entire team was scouted. Going off of your definition, if you HADN'T have scouted the entire team, then there would be more prediction by not knowing what pokemon they had. My point is the same point as yours other then the fact that you took mine to the extreme when all I stated was that it was less prediction, not all prediction was gone. If I thought it was all ABC's then I would have been able to list an entire outcome of event's afterwards, when I didn't, mentioning only movesets, and outplaying your opponent. So many other things factor into that. Does less prediction mean less mindgames? no, it doesn't. Does that mean that less prediction will supposedly become all "ABC" as you so claim that I see it as? No, it wont.

Your post makes it seem like your the one making things seem so "ABC" by basing all of this off of a horrible example that you posted, and the fact that I said less prediction was needed.
 
I absolutely love this.

How many times have you played until late game only to get swept by the one God damn thing that perfectly rapes you. Yes you can say in some way its skill, conserving your last poke and eliminating counters. Thats still possible. But now its less of a coin flip as to what that last Pokemn is. You can immediately formulate a plan for defeating your opponent instead of hoping you don't sacrifice the wrong thing.

This will also help to eliminate the early game clusterfuck of scouting and blind double switches. It instead jumps right into the strategic section of trying to out maneuver your opponent's moves.
 
its not better or worse its just different. just like when they added new types or abilities or the physical special split.

anyways there's no reason to get upset until we get confirmation from link battles.
 
then there would be more prediction by not knowing what pokemon they had in advance.
No, there wouldn't. That would be guessing, not predicting. What you are saying is that this eliminates some guesswork, not some prediction.
 

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