This is shit, actually. For starters it means battles will take longer to start as everyone will be writing down the other dude's team, and for seconds it just takes away surprise factor and the whole "revealing your team" thing. [You know, like how you wanna avoid switching in something he hasn't seen, trump card dilemna basically]
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
R.I.P. Leads and Scouting
- Thread starter TheMaskedNitpicker
- Start date
PBR has a fairly short time limit on the team selection screen. I'd be surprised if the same wasn't the case for B&W, considering that it's also adding a time limit for move selection IIRC.
I edited my post, but basically we could have our simulator works as it does now by saying this is what would have happened in the analogous "real game" scenario.
1. Battle is about to begin.
2. A neutral Judge covers the top screen of both link players.
3. Both battlers proceed to pick their teams.
4. Battle begins.
Many fighting games use similar procedures in tournament play for both fighters to pick characters, so that they can't metagame each other. "Blinding" the battlers is a perfectly reasonable proposition since it doesn't actually mandate any software changes to the game.
The reason this kind of thing is okay when eliminating critical hits, etc. is not is because it can be easily done "in real life" without modifying the cartridge in any way.
I can't imagine myself writing down someone's team. I might check smogon's analysis of those pokemon, but I would have done that the old way too.
I don't have strong opinions either way on this without playing with it some, but I think saying this is going to cause more or less skill to be involved in the game is probably misguided. Though I definitely agree that the skills tested are different.
Trying to make educated guesses about your opponents unrevealed Pokemon was a dying skill that has won many matches over the years, but I think in the end it's just that - a guess. As the pool of potential Pokemon increases those guess/predictions are going to get even less accurate, so I'm not so concerned that information is going to be narrowed down at the beginning of the match. While that skill goes away, another skill I have noticed rapidly declining in many players is the ability to plan an end-game - that is, not just trying to randomly beat up the Pokemon on the other team, but to wear the correct holes in the opponents team to enable a set of conditions for your side to sweep up what remains. I think this skill being tested more isn't such a bad thing either; though I'm not sure exactly how people will react to knowing the risk/reward of their actions a little better. Might be less likely to sacrifice those Steels knowing absolutely your opponent has some Dragons waiting in the wings.
Pokemon is ultimately a game of gaining information and then using that information to try to create desirable situations for your team. Most of team building is trying to avoid those situations for your opponent(making a relatively balanced(or unbalanced, as the strategy sometimes is) team that is difficult to play against and set-up on) and creating them for yourself(offensive team strategy, creating opportunities for offensive Pokemon to come in and for sweepers to clean up at the end), which I think is tested even more now that the element of surprise isn't so much there - people are going to see giant holes if they exist, so best make teams that don't have them. The midbattle predictions are always the best in the first four generations, anyway, when you have enough information to make at least educated guesses/predictions rather than just throwing shots in the dark.
I'm reserving judgement until we see how this plays out, but it might not be a bad thing. Definitely interesting.
Trying to make educated guesses about your opponents unrevealed Pokemon was a dying skill that has won many matches over the years, but I think in the end it's just that - a guess. As the pool of potential Pokemon increases those guess/predictions are going to get even less accurate, so I'm not so concerned that information is going to be narrowed down at the beginning of the match. While that skill goes away, another skill I have noticed rapidly declining in many players is the ability to plan an end-game - that is, not just trying to randomly beat up the Pokemon on the other team, but to wear the correct holes in the opponents team to enable a set of conditions for your side to sweep up what remains. I think this skill being tested more isn't such a bad thing either; though I'm not sure exactly how people will react to knowing the risk/reward of their actions a little better. Might be less likely to sacrifice those Steels knowing absolutely your opponent has some Dragons waiting in the wings.
Pokemon is ultimately a game of gaining information and then using that information to try to create desirable situations for your team. Most of team building is trying to avoid those situations for your opponent(making a relatively balanced(or unbalanced, as the strategy sometimes is) team that is difficult to play against and set-up on) and creating them for yourself(offensive team strategy, creating opportunities for offensive Pokemon to come in and for sweepers to clean up at the end), which I think is tested even more now that the element of surprise isn't so much there - people are going to see giant holes if they exist, so best make teams that don't have them. The midbattle predictions are always the best in the first four generations, anyway, when you have enough information to make at least educated guesses/predictions rather than just throwing shots in the dark.
I'm reserving judgement until we see how this plays out, but it might not be a bad thing. Definitely interesting.
Why would you need to write things down to remember six names?
When the battle starts is a fairly arbitrary distinction. As far as I'm concerned, the match starts when I view my opponent's team and start to choose my lead(s). It's been confirmed that in all Wireless and Wi-Fi matches, you can see your opponent's team before the match. So what we'd be simulating is artificially covering up the screen during that time? Why not cover up the screen before the first three rounds of battle as well? It's just as arbitrary.
The difference is that Fighting games reveal the character that you have selected as soon as you selected, giving an automatic advantage to the player who waits for the other player to select and then counterpicks it.
Since This just shows which pokémon are on your team after a point where you can no longer change them, and it doesn't show which one you are leading with, the situations are not even remotely comparable.
Bingo. I was about to say this exact thing, but you saved me the trouble.
I agree with this whole-heartedly. Very well put Synre.
Lol, Well I don't use entry hazard leads or entry hazards at all anyway. Fine with me. It does suck that I might have only one switch in to some fighting attack, and they'll just bluff and double switch or something.
Gen II brought the Special split.
Gen III introduced abilities, IV/EV overhaul.
Gen IV gave us the physical/special move split.
And here I was, sad that Gen V was IV with new Pokemon, moves and abilities.
Then this came along and made my day.
For most of the latter half of Generation IV I solely battled on PBR. Things had just gotten too stagnant on Shoddy, and PBR always allowed for more creativity. Lesser used Pokemon actually provide a higher shock value, giving them an advantage over the otherwise stronger more used Pokemon. You see the opponent has a Scizor? It was probably some Swords Dance or Bullet Punch variant. Select Gyarados, move on. You see the opponent has a Quagsire? What the hell is that going to do?
This... is Generation V.
Gen III introduced abilities, IV/EV overhaul.
Gen IV gave us the physical/special move split.
And here I was, sad that Gen V was IV with new Pokemon, moves and abilities.
Then this came along and made my day.
For most of the latter half of Generation IV I solely battled on PBR. Things had just gotten too stagnant on Shoddy, and PBR always allowed for more creativity. Lesser used Pokemon actually provide a higher shock value, giving them an advantage over the otherwise stronger more used Pokemon. You see the opponent has a Scizor? It was probably some Swords Dance or Bullet Punch variant. Select Gyarados, move on. You see the opponent has a Quagsire? What the hell is that going to do?
This... is Generation V.
Now that I read some comments on this, Pokemon Online had the ability to let others see your team or not before you challenged them. Or let them see it when they challenge you. It didn't seem to change that much to me. I had MY team, he/she had THEIR team. We didn't seem to play any different than normal
Lesser used Pokemon don't become less predictable if you see them in advance. Most lesser used Pokemon that work in the upper tiers have limited options there, so it's easy to figure them out and prepare if you know in advance. The only possible way they can surprise your opponent, which is usually important for them to do their job properly, is if your opponent doesn't know about them until the turn they hit the field.
The result of this is that the change removes viable strategies, and I don't see it adding too many. Now, correct me if I'm wrong about both this and the previous point, but is increasing the number of viable strategies not a goal of this site?
Not by changing the core mechanics of the game.
If a moveset requires your opponent to be unaware of what your Pokemon is or is capable of doing, then it isn't a viable strategy to begin with. Smogon has never been very supportive of gimmicky movesets. Just because sometimes a moveset will work if you catch your opponent off-guard doesn't mean it deserves a place in any metagame. I think "viable" is misleading, anyway. Viable doesn't necessarily mean "best" or even "good."
Since this has been brought up a few times, what seems to be the assumption implied here is that "non-OU Pokemon" are only worth using if they have some unexpected surprise to throw at players. This is an unfortunate way to look at the less used options in this game. Pokemon shouldn't be selected because they have some surprise gimmick you might be able to catch an uneducated opponent with, they should be selected because they fit a role on the team, so that even once your opponent has a pretty good idea of what you're carrying, the Pokemon is still useful to you. If a Pokemon would be near useless in match 2 of a best of 3 because your opponent has seen it once, it probably wasn't all that "viable" or good to begin with.
I know "gimmick" was never really mentioned by anyone who has posted whining that this is going to make the lesser pokemon less usable, but it sure seems to be implied there. I don't think this makes many pokemon more or less viable(outside of some niche cases like Shedinja, since to be a factor it pretty much requires your opponent to screw up and that'll be even rarer now), it just makes it more important to make sure you're using Pokemon for the right reasons. I think it is important to keep in mind non-OU Pokemon aren't necessarily eating low usage because they are bad and only useful if you have some unexpected curveball to throw, usually they are in those tiers because they fit specific niches that aren't needed on most teams. For the Pokemon who aren't directly outclassed by higher-tier brethren, it's a matter of using them on teams where they fit. This is the difference between fitting an Abomasnow on you stall team and using a FEAR Pokemon. At least to me. Cases like that one will still be there if you look.
Doubles and Triples will probably be emphasized more in this gen than in any other, too, and there's always plenty of opening for fitting in the "right" Pokemon there, even if the BST or usage is lower. That's going to be the fun in all metagames with so many Pokemon available, I think. Lots of choices to fill slots on teams.
Since this has been brought up a few times, what seems to be the assumption implied here is that "non-OU Pokemon" are only worth using if they have some unexpected surprise to throw at players. This is an unfortunate way to look at the less used options in this game. Pokemon shouldn't be selected because they have some surprise gimmick you might be able to catch an uneducated opponent with, they should be selected because they fit a role on the team, so that even once your opponent has a pretty good idea of what you're carrying, the Pokemon is still useful to you. If a Pokemon would be near useless in match 2 of a best of 3 because your opponent has seen it once, it probably wasn't all that "viable" or good to begin with.
I know "gimmick" was never really mentioned by anyone who has posted whining that this is going to make the lesser pokemon less usable, but it sure seems to be implied there. I don't think this makes many pokemon more or less viable(outside of some niche cases like Shedinja, since to be a factor it pretty much requires your opponent to screw up and that'll be even rarer now), it just makes it more important to make sure you're using Pokemon for the right reasons. I think it is important to keep in mind non-OU Pokemon aren't necessarily eating low usage because they are bad and only useful if you have some unexpected curveball to throw, usually they are in those tiers because they fit specific niches that aren't needed on most teams. For the Pokemon who aren't directly outclassed by higher-tier brethren, it's a matter of using them on teams where they fit. This is the difference between fitting an Abomasnow on you stall team and using a FEAR Pokemon. At least to me. Cases like that one will still be there if you look.
Doubles and Triples will probably be emphasized more in this gen than in any other, too, and there's always plenty of opening for fitting in the "right" Pokemon there, even if the BST or usage is lower. That's going to be the fun in all metagames with so many Pokemon available, I think. Lots of choices to fill slots on teams.
I can't really say I support anything that pushes people to use safe, strong pokemon. Being unable to use Pokemon in their peculiar niches or surprise your opponent makes the game a little pointless, I think.
Also what's the point of a pokemon like Zoruark if you know exactly what it's disguised as?
Also what's the point of a pokemon like Zoruark if you know exactly what it's disguised as?
I was thinking about 3 vs 3 in that case (ala PBR random battles and apparently B/W random battles), where you wouldn't be able to take all of your Pokemon into the fight. It's a fair bit tougher to prepare for something when you don't have a clue on what it can do, which was my point there. I don't have much experience with doubles and certainly not triples, but it seems like the VGC's are pretty happy about this change.
You can still use Pokemon in their niches and surprise your foe? More than ever with the alternate abilities of old Pokemon and new Pokemon, moves and abilites. If there wasn't something like this matches would be shots in the dark, often you wouldn't know what your opponent was up to until it was too late.NDenizen said:
You know, I honestly feel that this mechanic shows that Nintendo is finally giving a nod to competitive players. Combine that with the fact that there are many, many good Pokemon in Gen V, coupled with some strategic and extremely powerful new moves and abilities, won't hurt strategy. It'll make it better.
The metagame might be a bit more centralized, at least in OU, but I'm thinking UU is going to resemble D/P OU quite a bit. I'm really excited for B/W.
The metagame might be a bit more centralized, at least in OU, but I'm thinking UU is going to resemble D/P OU quite a bit. I'm really excited for B/W.
I would also say that anything that removes the little quirks of battling makes said battles that much more boring. Surprises can be fun, they can challenge you. And gimmicks can be useful as well. Tell the Saints that a gimmick play like an on sides kick doesn't belong in a professional match up. They can work and they can win you games when playing it safe can lose you them.
i think that actually this mechanic was designed with zoroark in mind. his ability to lure counters to a specific pokemon is incredible and almost uncounterable - at least if you know the pokemon he's disguised as, you have a chance at combating this tactic.
anyway i think this is not as bad as it may seem. yeah you're not gonna get away with sneaking in a last-minute lucario sweep as easily as before, but at the same time there is entirely no need to scout so you can start constructing and executing your strategy from the very beginning of the battle. good news imo!
anyway i think this is not as bad as it may seem. yeah you're not gonna get away with sneaking in a last-minute lucario sweep as easily as before, but at the same time there is entirely no need to scout so you can start constructing and executing your strategy from the very beginning of the battle. good news imo!
I think people should embrace this change. People saying it ruins competetive battling are idiots as PBR has done fine and even if PBR never happened...that's just a stupid assumption to make. I'm kinda happy about this considering there wasn't a big change in competetive battling this generation like there's been in all the other ones (Special Split, Abilities, Special/Physical split)
I know I don't want more of the same Gen 4 stuff...
My biggest problem with this is that it doesn't really make sense for the opponent to see your team in a pokemon battle. The pokemon are in pokeballs...why would your opponent see them beforehand?
I know I don't want more of the same Gen 4 stuff...
My biggest problem with this is that it doesn't really make sense for the opponent to see your team in a pokemon battle. The pokemon are in pokeballs...why would your opponent see them beforehand?