Poliwrath doesn't get Close Combat. If it did, I would definitely run it.
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Rain Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Cloud 8
- Start date
I wasnt quite sure about Poliwrath but I think I will add it after I finish writing up the main ones.You seem to be missing one of the most useful Ran Abusers (at least on my Rain Team)
Politoad's long forgotten brother can definitely use the Rain.
Poliwrath (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Belly Drum
- Waterfall
- Brick Break
- Earthquake
When combined with Uxie's Memento, Poliwrath can set up and sweep on a significant amount of pokemon. +6 Waterfall is immensely powerful, doing 91.9% - 108.3% to +Max/Max Cresselia in the rain. Max speed is there so that he can outspeed +1 Yanmega in the rain. This thing can wreck almost everything in the tier. If only Ice Punch was legal with Swift Swim :/
Quick nitpick, why list Hp Fire as an option on Sharpedo for a Rain-focused thread? With rain+stab, Hydro Pump is only hitting Ferroseed for like 5 BP less than Hp Fire isn't it?
Anywho, I thought that I might mention a couple pokes that I've found to be rather effective for rain that you might have overlooked. First off, Rotom-C has functioned rather well for me in terms of Rain supporters. It can set up rain, burn pokes via Wow, scout switches with Volt Switch and has semi-reliable recovery in Pain Split. The whole Bug weakness isn't all that appreciated, but otherwise it's a fair choice. As for offensive options, I'd say the most notable one I that is yet to receive mention is Qwilfish. Water/Poison offer respectable neutral coverage and can hit like a tank after SD. Moreover, with access to (T)Spikes/TWave/Taunt/DBond he can also fill a speedy supportive role as well. A set of just Waterfall/Poison Jab/SD/TSpikes would be incredibly effective if I played correctly (which I rarely manage, but assuming for a more talented player then it should be fine haha).
Anywho, I thought that I might mention a couple pokes that I've found to be rather effective for rain that you might have overlooked. First off, Rotom-C has functioned rather well for me in terms of Rain supporters. It can set up rain, burn pokes via Wow, scout switches with Volt Switch and has semi-reliable recovery in Pain Split. The whole Bug weakness isn't all that appreciated, but otherwise it's a fair choice. As for offensive options, I'd say the most notable one I that is yet to receive mention is Qwilfish. Water/Poison offer respectable neutral coverage and can hit like a tank after SD. Moreover, with access to (T)Spikes/TWave/Taunt/DBond he can also fill a speedy supportive role as well. A set of just Waterfall/Poison Jab/SD/TSpikes would be incredibly effective if I played correctly (which I rarely manage, but assuming for a more talented player then it should be fine haha).
Lol. I just copied it from the Sharpedo thread. I literally changed it like 5 minutes ago. I was thinking about Qwilifish but I dont get what the poison typing is hitting that Kabutops' rock typing isnt. Qwilfish doesnt have any way to hit Ferroseed either. The only thing that Qwilfish can do is absorb Toxic spikes. Speedy support would be interesting I guess but I would rather use Omastar for that and with limited turns of rain its hard to really support. Rotom-c does seem really nice for Rain Dance support; I will probably add it once I finish the ones I currently have.
oh, and while Rotom-C does have the resistances to make it useful, it cannot really hit the Electric/Grass-types that threaten rain teams.
Btw, do you think that a type-resist berry/Air Balloon would help Omastar set up? I've been having trouble setting up a Shell Smash, and Life Orb is causing me to die too fast as well.
Btw, do you think that a type-resist berry/Air Balloon would help Omastar set up? I've been having trouble setting up a Shell Smash, and Life Orb is causing me to die too fast as well.
you can use focush sash or white herb as well
I feel that a sash won't prove to be all that useful, simply because SR is almost always up to try to fend of Mega, supplemented by the fact that Omastar still retains respectable physical bulk with a low investment. White Herb seems all well and good, but outside of taking that first hit after the Shell Smash I can't see it proving too useful. Keep in mind that after a Shell Smash in the rain Omastar's speed is quadrupled, meaning that only the rare Gurdurr will threaten him with his priority Mach Punch. I would say that Air Balloon/Chople Berry might be worth looking into, though Wacan and such would be more or less pointless, as Omastar can't take hits from the special end of the spectrum either way.
Also, it is basically true that Kabutops is the bigger threat when thinking purely offensively. However, if you do happen to face troubles with Tspikes, wish to lay down (T)Spikes or enjoy the safety that a speedy DBond offers, Qwilifish is your go-to poke. Moreover, he does make for a generally better switch-in to Moltres, as situational as it is.
Also, it is basically true that Kabutops is the bigger threat when thinking purely offensively. However, if you do happen to face troubles with Tspikes, wish to lay down (T)Spikes or enjoy the safety that a speedy DBond offers, Qwilifish is your go-to poke. Moreover, he does make for a generally better switch-in to Moltres, as situational as it is.
Great pokemon set but walled by Quagsire.You seem to be missing one of the most useful Ran Abusers (at least on my Rain Team)
Politoad's long forgotten brother can definitely use the Rain.
Poliwrath (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Belly Drum
- Waterfall
- Brick Break
- Earthquake
When combined with Uxie's Memento, Poliwrath can set up and sweep on a significant amount of pokemon. +6 Waterfall is immensely powerful, doing 91.9% - 108.3% to +Max/Max Cresselia in the rain. Max speed is there so that he can outspeed +1 Yanmega in the rain. This thing can wreck almost everything in the tier. If only Ice Punch was legal with Swift Swim :/
Seismitoad, having a Niche as a Swift swimmer with it's unique typing water/ground, gives it an immunity to thunder-wave, a good player will try to paralyze your rain sweepers, It's difficult to Paralyze Seismitoad unless it by secondary effect (eg body slam) or by a non-electric move (Eg stun spore or glare)
Slap on a Choice Specs and Seismitoad's Hydropump hits like a tank. Earth power, Grassknot and Focus Blast and Hidden Power for coverage
Sadly it doesn't get a physical water type move so A Choice band set is kind of useless with that double stab waterfall in the rain. It'd be pretty good surprise set with a choice band having Earthquake, Drainpunch and Rockslide.
Moveset Name: Specs Swim
Move 1: Hydro pump / Surf
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Grass Knot / HP - Ice
Move 4: Focus Blast / HP- Ice
Item: Choice Specs / Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
Nature: Modest / Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Hydro pump for Power, Surf for reliability
Earth Power for 2nd STAB.
Grass knot for opposing waters especially Gastrodon and Quagsire.
Focus Blast for Ferroseed
Hidden-Power Ice Only really Hits Altaria (Cloud 9 Altaria could probably wall Seismitoad), Rotom-C and other grass types super effectively
Other Options:
Brick Break could be used to hit evolite Munchlax but remember to change your nature to Mild/Rash. I don't know how effective a Specs Focus Blast or Hydropump in the rain would do to Munchlax and I'm too lazy to do the Calculation.
Floatzel also has a niche as a Swift Swimmer, the Move Switcheroo, so you can Run Choice Band without being stuck permanently on a move and cripple another pokemon with a Choice band.
Moveset Name: Switch Swim
Move 1: Switcheroo
Move 2: Waterfall
Move 3: Return / Ice Punch
Move 4: Low Kick / Aqua Jet
Item: Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Att / 4 Spe
Maximum Bulk and Attack for Longevity and Power since your fast enough to out speed everything in the rain, Speed can be invested if you are cautious about losing the weather and having to battle outside of the rain.
Switcheroo to cripple walls like Gastrodon
Waterfall Mandatory STAB
Return gives you neutral coverage on everything except Ferroseed and Frillish
Ice Punch to Hit Grass types
Low Kick to hit Ferroseed
Aqua Jet for Priority.
You can Bluff a Swift swim set and Run a Waterveil Floatzel instead because Floatzel is already fast enough to out speed most of the Tier anyway but then Floatzel can not use Ice Punch or Low Kick and has to resort to using Ice Fang and Brick break which may give away your set but at least you don't have to worry about being burnt by bulky ghost types like Noir and Coffin, and the very rare evolite Frillish.
Ok so, so far people think these Pokemon should be added:
Swift Swimmers: Poliwrath, Qwilfish, Seismitoed and Floatzel
Rain Dance users: Rotom-C
Rain Dance Counters: Someone mentioned Rotom-C too.
I mentioned Qwilfish on 2 seperate occasions in this thread and talked about how the support set was generally outclassed by Omastar and that Toxic Spikes are pretty rare and the hyper offensive playstyle of rain isnt generally phazed by Toxic. I also talked about how I will add Qwilfish later but Kabutops is my first priority. The current ones that are listed are also more important than the ones listed above.
Swift Swimmers: Poliwrath, Qwilfish, Seismitoed and Floatzel
Rain Dance users: Rotom-C
Rain Dance Counters: Someone mentioned Rotom-C too.
I mentioned Qwilfish on 2 seperate occasions in this thread and talked about how the support set was generally outclassed by Omastar and that Toxic Spikes are pretty rare and the hyper offensive playstyle of rain isnt generally phazed by Toxic. I also talked about how I will add Qwilfish later but Kabutops is my first priority. The current ones that are listed are also more important than the ones listed above.
Accelgor should be mentioned as a Rain setup pokemon. It's basically a better Electrode with U-Turn instead of Explosion, and Encore instead of Taunt. Bug Buzz hits almost as hard as Electrode's Thunder and has better synergy with a rain team since its bug typing allows it to defeat Grass types that could otherwise block your sweepers. And it gets Hydration + Rest too, but with its terrible bulk that doesn't really matter.
Possible Rain Checks,
Lanturn is worth a mention, resist water and can hit back with super effect Tbolt or paralyze with T-wave or burn with scalds. Needs to be careful of Grass and Ground moves
Cradily has storm drain for water immunity and possible SpA boost and can hit back with super effective STAB Grass moves, it even has recover but has to be weary of Ice beam, Focus Blast and Superpower
Gardevoir with Trace either Ties or out speeds more Rain sweepers, as it traces swift swim and can hit them with super effective Tbolt, energy ball and grass knot (signal Beam for Ludicolo).
Loses to Swift Swim Golduck and Floatzel (Uncommon)
Ties with Kabutops and Seismitoad ( I'm gonna assume most rain sweeper to run positive Att or SpA natures for maximum power as they already outspeed everything else )
You can have Gardevoir to run a Scarf if you want to make sure it out speeds swift swimmers.
Anything Bulky that can paralyze, I Think the average Rain teams run 3 Swift Swim Sweepers and 3 Support pokemon to set up rain. so you either need to paralyze the swift swim sweeper to prevent the support pokemon from setting up the rain.
The 1st is probably easier to do because as the 2nd method requires a fast taunt or a strong attack that can OHKO. Murkrow could probably do both jobs with access with Pranksters Priority T-wave and Taunt but won't survive many Super effective Electric Attacks of Double stab Water moves in the rain.
Lanturn is worth a mention, resist water and can hit back with super effect Tbolt or paralyze with T-wave or burn with scalds. Needs to be careful of Grass and Ground moves
Cradily has storm drain for water immunity and possible SpA boost and can hit back with super effective STAB Grass moves, it even has recover but has to be weary of Ice beam, Focus Blast and Superpower
Gardevoir with Trace either Ties or out speeds more Rain sweepers, as it traces swift swim and can hit them with super effective Tbolt, energy ball and grass knot (signal Beam for Ludicolo).
Loses to Swift Swim Golduck and Floatzel (Uncommon)
Ties with Kabutops and Seismitoad ( I'm gonna assume most rain sweeper to run positive Att or SpA natures for maximum power as they already outspeed everything else )
You can have Gardevoir to run a Scarf if you want to make sure it out speeds swift swimmers.
Anything Bulky that can paralyze, I Think the average Rain teams run 3 Swift Swim Sweepers and 3 Support pokemon to set up rain. so you either need to paralyze the swift swim sweeper to prevent the support pokemon from setting up the rain.
The 1st is probably easier to do because as the 2nd method requires a fast taunt or a strong attack that can OHKO. Murkrow could probably do both jobs with access with Pranksters Priority T-wave and Taunt but won't survive many Super effective Electric Attacks of Double stab Water moves in the rain.
All vs Rotom-C with Max HP/ Max def or Sp. Def and positive nature, depending on the attacker, not including Stealth Rocks. All attackers have Modest/ Adamant nature + max Atk/ Sp atk + Life Orb
Ludicolo's Ice Beam: 51.97- 61.18% (most likely a 2HKO)
Omastar's Ice Beam: 61.18-72.37% (always 2HKOs)
Gorebyss' Ice Beam: The same as Omastar
Kabutop's Stone Edge: 48.68- 57.57% (most likely a 3HKO, but one SD gives it a 79.48% chance of OHKO)
Is there something I'm missing? O.o
In regards to Seismitoad I think it's best set is its stand alone Rain Dance Set. It's one I've used on my team to great success
Seismitoad@Life Orb
evs: 252 Spe / 252 SpA / 4 HP (you could tinker with these to get the best use of the Speed EVs)
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Hydro Pump
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: HP Grass / HP Ice / Focus Blast
ability: Swift Swim
This set can destroy teams as Seismitoad has good natural bulk which allows it to set up Rain and kill everything with Hydro Pump. The sheer power of Hydro Pump in Rain is ridiculous. Coverage moves are coverage moves and don't see much use because of the sheer power of Hydro Pump.
Seismitoad@Life Orb
evs: 252 Spe / 252 SpA / 4 HP (you could tinker with these to get the best use of the Speed EVs)
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Hydro Pump
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: HP Grass / HP Ice / Focus Blast
ability: Swift Swim
This set can destroy teams as Seismitoad has good natural bulk which allows it to set up Rain and kill everything with Hydro Pump. The sheer power of Hydro Pump in Rain is ridiculous. Coverage moves are coverage moves and don't see much use because of the sheer power of Hydro Pump.
The special sweeper's Ice Beam's hit Parasect for massive damage, and Kabutops can hit it super-effectively. Just because you resist the main STAB does not make you a counter people >.> (see my previous post, then note that Parasect is hit harder by all of those Ice Beams and factor in that its weak to Rocks)
It was in reference to Choice Scarf set. I assume it outspeeds slower things like Omastar especially if they dont run max speed.
All Swift Swim users will outspeed Choice Scarf Rotom-C in Rain... Isn't this whole discussion based off those 5/8 turns where Rain is actually up? :S
No, it is about *Rain teams* and how to counter them. Counters can easily come in after the rain stopped, and if your team does not have an answer, you are screwed.
Thats assuming they run max speed. Swift swim Omastar needs 228 Spe to outspeed Choice Scarf Rotom-c in rain. I guess thats a bad example though
Well, Gorebyss and Omastar do have Shell Smash, but I didn't know Omastar needed that much to outspeed without a Smash. Point taken.
On the topic of Seismatoad, I'm surprised he hasn't been mentioned for his ability to set up rain conservatively. With his respectable bulk and typing he can take almost any singular hit (bar a Grass one of course) and set up the rain. Something along the lines of:
Seismitoad (M) @ Damp Rock
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 180 Spd/ 136 SAtk/ 192 HP
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Grass Knot/Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]/Focus Blast
- Rain Dance
Basic stuff, not really too deeply researched or anything, but you get the idea. I suppose you could run Surf or Scald over Hydro Pump, but that means you lose the guarantee to OHKO Mega, as well as PZ after rocks. On a side note, I just noticed he received Sleep Talk. Though it isn't all that useful, it does make him a relatively viable sleep absorber in conjunction with Specs or something of the sort, though there are likely better options.
Seismitoad (M) @ Damp Rock
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 180 Spd/ 136 SAtk/ 192 HP
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Grass Knot/Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]/Focus Blast
- Rain Dance
Basic stuff, not really too deeply researched or anything, but you get the idea. I suppose you could run Surf or Scald over Hydro Pump, but that means you lose the guarantee to OHKO Mega, as well as PZ after rocks. On a side note, I just noticed he received Sleep Talk. Though it isn't all that useful, it does make him a relatively viable sleep absorber in conjunction with Specs or something of the sort, though there are likely better options.
You could use Blastoise as a rain counter. Mirror Coat/Rapid Spin/Hydro Pump/another attack preferably good against Ludi and/or Kabu.
Did you just suggest Blastoise as a counter to Ludi? Can he hit a Sub-Seed Ludi behind a sub? How much does he take from a Giga Drain off the standard offensive Ludi, or even a Seed Bomb from an SD set for that matter? Having water typing and good bulk doesn't instantly make them a counter, especially when almost all rain abusers, and even support for that matter, pack a Grass/Electric attack to provide coverage against Water types.