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Research Group #2 - Magmar, Lapras, Exeggutor

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by DTC, Jul 16, 2012.

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  1. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Mentor

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    Introduction:
    NU is a tier where many Pokemon are usable, and there are a ton of different options. Research Group aids in helping explore the tier. Who knows, maybe in future tier changes one of these Pokemon can be incredibly useful, potentially being able to check the new threats well. Maybe one of these Pokemon may find uses in other tiers and is not just a simple throw-away Pokemon, unlike some unfortunate Pokemon in NU.

    Some rules:

    • Be open-minded. Don't just say something is terrible and walk away; at least look into them and see what options they may be able to utilize.
    • Feel free to theorymon, but make it clear that you are theorymon'ing. At the end of the week, however, I want discussion to move towards how useful the Pokemon actually are in NU, and what sets are effective on them.
    • Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's quite possible that something might have gone unnoticed or is missing.
    • Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon I choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. I want discussion to stay on topic about the 3 Pokemon we are "researching". You'll be able to vote on what Pokemon you want the next Research Group right before it starts (out of a ballot that is determined by me)

    The 3 Pokemon that we will be looking into this Research Group are:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    How useful are these Pokemon in NU? What sets can they run effectively? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon? How well do they work in the metagame? If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning. Remember, discussion is not limited to this topic, you are encouraged to talk about these Pokemon in #neverused/#pokemon as well!

    Please include more substance in your posts than just "in" and what Pokemon you're using. What sets are you planning on using? What interests you about whatever Pokemon you're using?
  2. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Note: because PO is dead and PS isn't up and running and the ladder system keeps on changing because Zarel is making many modifications to it, there will be no points given out based on ladder this Research Group.

    There will now be a point system in Research Group. Whoever has the most points at the end of 10 Research Group's will get a special prize. You can get points through the following methods:
    • Get one of these 5 awards for Research Group: "Best Forum Discusser" (this topic only), "Best IRC Discusser (#pokemon or #neverused)", "Most Innovative", "Most Interesting Set", and "Game-breaking discovery". Each of these will give you 5 points.
    • Win Pokemon challenges. These challenges would be something like "use Synthesis Simisage effectively". Each challenge you complete successfully you get 1 point for.
    • Possibly some additional bonus points~

    Pokemon Challenges

    Rules:
    • You must test the sets that you post out
    • You must talk about what the sets do and your experiences with them
    • You may not use any slashes

    Note: this is a trial run, so there may be a lot of changes in future Research Group's.

    [​IMG]
    • Create a set that uses only physical attacks for attacking moves.

    [​IMG]
    • Create a set that uses Substitute | Restriction: It can't use Dragon Dance on the same set.
    • Create a set that abuses Rain Dance

    [​IMG]
    • Create a set that sets-up sun then abuses it defensively
    • Create a set that abuses Stun Spore

    Points Leaderboard (open)

    1. CrashinBoomBang - 16 points
    2. FLCL - 10 points
    3. Annoyer - 4 points
    4. Tribute - 2 points
    5. Shovel - 1 point
  3. FLCL

    FLCL
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    in

    EXEGGUTOR

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Edit: Tree Comments and initial thoughts.

    Exeggutor has always been one of my favorite Pokemon to use in NU. It's one of the tier's most versatile Pokemon, being able to run a powerful Choice Specs set, speedy Sunny Day set, or bulky Harvest set. Although I haven't utilized the Sunny Day or Harvest sets effectively yet, I can still testify to Exeggutor's effectiveness through the sheer power of the Choice Specs set. There are few Pokemon in the tier who can switch into it safely and they can all be crippled by Sleep Powder. It's one of the premier wall-breakers in the tier and gives stall a really hard time.

    On the other hand, Exeggutor is usually very slow and prone to revenge-killing. It is weak to both Pursuit, which allows Absol and Skuntank to trap it, and U-Turn, which allows something like Cinccino or Swellow to come in after a kill and completely gain back the momentum. It is extremely bulky though, and can survive Pursuits if it chooses not to switch out or weaker unstabbed U-Turns. I'm planning on using a Substitute set with Stun Spore to eliminate some of these factors while still hitting hard.
  4. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    all three

    edit: nvm fuck that all three suck
  5. drakon136

    drakon136

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    Using Magmar.

    also I used physical Magmar before it was cool js
  6. CrashinBoomBang

    CrashinBoomBang Aye I got Swagger, Koga 87
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    I'll definitely use Exeggutor because I already had positive experiences with it. Sunny Day is amazing right now.

    I might use Magmar, in particular BELLY DRUM, even though it doesn't get Mach Punch. It still sounds good I guess, just not as good as it could be.
  7. Full2Half

    Full2Half

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    In, using magmar and maybe the other two. my alt should be Full2Half RG

    EDIT: Alright, havnt gotten around to playtesting yet, but Im going to try to use all 3. But as for my thoughts, ive used then all to some degree before with mixed results.

    Show Hide
    Exeggutor, I love. It is always reliable and can run a ton of differant sets. Whether its the fucking annoying harvest subseed, or the all-powerful specs exeggutor, or the chlorphyl sweeper set, or the lumrest set, you know it has the potential to carry the weight of the team with it's massive spA, its solid defenses, usable speed, and great STABs. I personally will be trying out a more defensive duel status eggy to abuse stun spore, but you can always go with other things. I consider exeggutor to be one of the best and most versitile pokemon in the tier, and one that i usually have on my team.


    Show Hide

    As for lapras, it is also a diverse gen 1 poke. Dispite it being one of few water types that DOESNT learn scald (it would be a pretty damn good abuser imo) it's also got quite a good movepool and can do a number of things. It can abuse its great HP and solid defenses for a more defensive set (it even gets rest/rain dance/hydration with heal bell!) Or it can use solid attack, nice bulk, and awesome STABs offensively too, running devistating DD and tank sets. I plan on using a sub + 3 attacks set, abusing its good spA and fantastic STAB coverage and access to Tbolt.


    Show Hide
    Finally, we get to magmar. Magmar is something ive always wanted to use correctly, but could never find how. I used it a bit and i wasnt entirely impressed, but im willing to give it another shot. Its a fast and pretty strong fire type in NU, something we've been missing sinse magmortar's leaving. However, magmar hold the option of going mixed or fully physical. Access to belly drum helps out this cause, even if its illegal with mach punch. It only makes it better that it has access to the ability Vital Spirit and has solid enough spD to reliably switch into one of our biggest threats, amoonguss. Im either going to use a fully physical set, or a mixed one. (idgaf about losing a point)
  8. ChaoticaMortis

    ChaoticaMortis

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    While I don't intend on breaking any new ground, I'd definitely enjoy taking up a challenge like this. I'll take a swing at using all of them (although I doubt I'd risk all three at the same time). Definitely in on this. Alt: chaotica_mortis

    I'll add to this as I go about building sets, testing them, etc.

    EDIT: Ok, I'm going to try this Lapras set:

    Lapras @ Leftovers
    Trait: Hydration
    EVs: 240 Spd / 252 SAtk / 16 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Substitute
    - Heal Bell
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Beam

    EV's are similar to the Dragon Dance set, although I wanted to go for a Special attacker to see if it was worth anything. Substitute for the challenge. BoltBeam for offensive coverage. Heal Bell because I like having a cleric, although I might change this to another attacking move if it doesn't work out very well.

    Also, this Exeggutor set:

    Exeggutor @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Harvest
    EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Stun Spore
    - Giga Drain
    - Substitute
    - Extrasensory

    This is basically the on-site SubSeed set with a few different moves. Stun Spore to see how well I can "abuse" it, along with Giga Drain instead of Leech Seed because I have no skill at all with actual SubSeed sets. Extrasensory is only slightly weaker than Psychic and gives me a slightly higher shot at keeping the opponent from moving. I little gimmicky, but I like that sort of thing, and this will no doubt be fun to try out.
  9. Fun With Knives

    Fun With Knives

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    Definitely Magmar, not sure on the other two yet.

    An Eviolite Tank looks promising, compensating for its weaker Defense stat with the potential to burn and Barrier as an egg move. STAB Lava Plume with 100 base SpA will roll through Amoonguss and put a dent in Torterra, along with a 30% chance to burn, plus Flame Body to boot. Confuse Ray is an added bonus for physical sweepers who might come in on it. Alomomola may pose a threat, but can be disposed of through the newly tutored ThunderPunch.
  10. drakon136

    drakon136

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    Umm, Magmar can't touch Alomomola, even if you use ThunderPunch.

    ThunderPunch: 180-214 (33.7 - 40.07%) -- 34.96% chance to 3HKO

    That is assuming Adamant AND Choice Band btw, so I don't really think ThunderPunch has much merit over something like Cross Chop.
  11. Pokelol

    Pokelol

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    Might be in on this. I really want to learn the NU metagame.

    Got some sets on paper and will try using every pokemon on some different teams and stuff
  12. Fun With Knives

    Fun With Knives

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    It still puts more of a dent in Alomomola than Cross Chop would, and Magmar is still better off switching out.

    I will however, cede that as you said, Magmar can make decent use of Cross Chop, and could also have Brick Break, Clear Smog, Facade, Mach Punch, or Psychic, which would all provide a different manner of versatility.
  13. Machineae

    Machineae

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    If only Magmar got gluttony- Belly Drum+Salac would be pretty amazing.
    Probably going to use all three since ya know, F/W/G core.
  14. drakon136

    drakon136

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    Well, Magmar can still use a Belly Drum set, even though it doesn't have Gluttony. A set with Substitute|Belly Drum|Fire Punch|Cross Chop/Brick Break could be viable.
  15. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    I'm more interested in using Magmar like a mini Magmortar. I've used it in a few matches already and it exceeded my expectations. It's basically a faster Magmortar with much less Special Attack but more bulk thanks to Eviolite. I used Fire Blast / Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ice / Will-o-Wisp because it doesn't have Thunderbolt. :(

    For Exeggutor I'm mainly going to use Harvest sets because I've used Specs and Exeggutor in the sun a lot.

    Not sure what approach I'll take to Lapras exactly. Rain Lapras definitely interests me, though. I remember using Surf / Ice Beam / Thunder / Rest Lapras on a rain team a long time ago with quite a bit of success.
  16. Fun With Knives

    Fun With Knives

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    Yeah. I've looked at Magmar's special movepool, and it is at best underwhelming.

    I have a thing for accuracy, so I would be running a different set.

    I'd propose a set with Flamethrower/Lava Plume, Psychic, Clear Smog, and Hidden Power Grass, thereby having extensive coverage only resisted by Zweilous and being super-effective against all STAB weaknesses.

    Hyper Beam can replace Clear Smog if desired.
  17. TLCJR4LIFE

    TLCJR4LIFE

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    I won't be on #neverused because I got banned for saying an RU mon is bad but I will be on PS probably using Clear Smog Magmar.


    Magmar has big time Special Defense so I'll be trying it out as a wall...because I like stall. Perhaps Lapras too since I already have a rain stall team that's been working.
  18. drakon136

    drakon136

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    Yeah, a couple things wrong with that.

    • Clear Smog should NEVER be used offensively. 50 base power + no STAB = garbage.
    • Hyper Beam is no better; this isn't Porygon-Z we're talking about.
    • Focus Miss exists for a reason: to miss at the worst possible time to provide useful coverage. You should be using that over Clear Smog, even if you prefer accuracy. 84 > 50

    Also, I'm currently using a set of Substitute/Belly Drum/Fire Punch/Cross Chop that I mentioned earlier, and it is amazing. You can switch it in on something like Amoonguss or Tangela as they use Spore/Sleep Powder and force them out, giving you a chance to set up a Substitute and a Belly Drum. I'm probably gonna change Cross Chop out for Brick Break though. I usually prefer power > accuracy, but with a Belly Drummer, you only get one chance to sweep, and a miss is pretty much guaranteed to be fatal.
  19. Fun With Knives

    Fun With Knives

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    Clear Smog is there so that you can come in, haze, and sweep without letting an opponent set up.
  20. TLCJR4LIFE

    TLCJR4LIFE

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    Magmar isn't going to be sweeping anything with those special stats. And it has no way of boosting either.
  21. Shovel

    Shovel

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    Shovelin' (Shovelface activate :L)

    Magmar has a lot of love here >.> I'll prolly test them all.

    I seen a Magmar set on youtube (not taking credit c;) that I'm going to test, that goes something like this:

    Magmar @ Eviolite
    Trait: Vital Spirit
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpeDef
    Calm Nature
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Flamethrower
    - Hp Grass
    - Barrier


    I guess I could try and revert that into a physical set with Fire Punch (not Flare Blitz for the obvious sake of survival) and ThunderPunch, which I think it gets. Maybe Cross Chop though; for the sake of having the coverage over rock types (but then Charizard can take this set out with ease, as well as Swanna and Pelipper), but whatever. I'll be testing. (Not too entirely interested in Barrier, so, maybe both of the aforementioned moves)

    As for Lapras, I really like the idea of a rain abuser. I still need to test and tweak, but I think I'll try

    Lapras @ Damp Rock
    Trait: Hydration
    EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpeDef
    Careful Nature
    - Rain Dance
    - Rest
    - Dragon Dance/Ice Beam
    - Waterfall/Surf


    This set needs a LOT of work, obviously. It gets walled by any grass types, so I wasn't sure to run Dragon Dance or Ice Beam (with surf) yet. I'll be testing it as soon as I have enough time. If Avalanche is decided, an alternate spread with 134 spedef and 5o SpA with a modest nature just for that bit of extra power. But of course, that also needs to be tested. This set actually requires more support than most would want, but, I really dont mind trying to support a Lapras. So, we'll see how that goes.

    Edit: If Lapras already has rain support, then Thunder/Ice Beam/Surf/Rest (though I realize someone already said it) would be a lot better. But, whatever :L

    Ahh, the last one; Exeggutor. Th Jumpluff of bulk. I sincerely hate going up against this thing. Despite that, it's not all too bad to use :L I haven't put much thought into a new set, seeing as the standard sets are generally good, but, Ill see what I can do.

    Exeggutor @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Harvest
    EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Stun Spore
    - Substitute
    - Leech Seed
    - Hidden Power Ice


    Same set as subseed, but with Stun Spore > Protect. I actually think this one is viable, and has worked for me in the matches I've tried it. Stun Spore works as a pseudo-protect sometimes with parahax, and overall allows Exeggutor to (lol) outspeed without the sun. Since the grass types you'll generally see are Exeggutor, Tangela, and Amoongus, I think Hidden Power Ice should go over Psychic, because Psychic is neutral to one, Super effective on one, and not very effective on the other. Hp Ice is super effective on all three, though generally not a 2hko on any (grass type pokemon are almost always bulky). I only talk about grass types here, because they have an easy way to wall this set: by being a grass type. So, Hp Ice only helps. HelloCharizardGoAway.

    And, just like last time, the Grass type seems to be what looks to work the best for me ;-;

    Edit: By the way, a Sunny day team with both, Magmar AND Exeggutor would work out pretty well, and would actually relate..
  22. Fun With Knives

    Fun With Knives

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    Tried running my first set with Mach Punch alongside Wailord and Torterra, coverage and defensive ability complements fairly well.
  23. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    I see no reason to try and defend with Magmar. Yeah, it's surprisingly bulky, but it's incredibly easy to ware down. 100 base Special Attack is more than enough to justify using a special set. Also, why are you using Psychic, Fun With Knives? Psychic has no specific purpose on Magmar and is a waste. You're MUCH better off using Focus Blast despite its 70% accuracy. Clear Smog is a cool option in the last slot though because there's very little else that Magmar can use. I don't think it'll be better than WoW, though, because it's amazing being able to cripple stuff like Samurott on the switch. It's not as if Magmar does well against most set-up Pokemon anyways.
  24. Shovel

    Shovel

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    Wish support is definitely needed for a defensive Magmar, and Heal Bell is appreciated. I've only done about three matches, and of course Fire isnt the best typing to resist hits, but most pokemon that do use a super effective move can't ohko it, and it is a great counter./.check to the general sleep inducers, being Exeggutor, Tangela, and Amoonguss (along with less common bug type pokemon).
    A defensive set requires proper support, and can help sponge hits for a team.. Inferior to an attacking set? Some could say. Decent enough to use? Again, some would say.

    I myself like it, because it's good with the right team. Sun Support is pretty cool(hot), because it helps Magmar take water hits easier. Without sun, it can take a Surf from a Gorebyss that hasn't boosted, retaining a good 40 - 50% hp that can be wish healed by Alomomola or something of the sort. This is especially true if it's the less common subsmash set that runs Ice Beam instead of HpGrass. And, if it has Hp Grass, and you have a sun team, Exeggutor can properly handle it.

    Thatssituationalbutwhatever.
  25. The Reptile

    The Reptile CELEBRATE
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    Specially Defensive Magmar has HUGE competition with Specially Defensive Flareon, which needs less support and in fact supports the team with Wish and Heal Bell, not to mention can use Lefties because it doesn't need Eviolite.

    IMO, Magmar should go offensive to use his decent 93 base speed and his good 95 / 100 offenses.

    Anyways, I'll probably try these as soon as PS stops being broken for me.
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