You forget that our Porygon-Z has paralysis support, so it doesn't need to worry about any of Pokemon you mentioned except Roserade. If offensive Roserade was more common I micht consider it but with specially defensive Snorlax and Crobat on the same team Roserade doesn't get anywhere. I appreciate that Timid LO is better on an offensive team but on the team TrollFreak and I are using, which is essentially Semi-Stall, Modest provides that extra little smidgin of power that allows us to 2HKO common specially defensive Pokemon even with leftovers. This whole item/nature debate is really depndent on the team IMO, since all things silk scarf does can be achieved by Spikes supporp, with the exception of Flygon who still weakens himself spamming U-Turn. I will probably test Silk Scarf but I doubt I'll like it more.
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Research Group #4 - Porygon-Z, Zoroark, Venomoth
- Thread starter kokoloko
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Joining under the alt: Sans Serif
using porygon-z and maybe venemoth probably would use a pass if I use moth
Edit: Damage
Doing a quick calculation a modest +2 life orb tri-attack has the chance to 2HKO Specially defensive heatran doing 45.9% - 54.1% and +3 having a guarunteed 2HKO doing 57.3% - 67.4%
Also a +2 just barely misses the OHKO on tank lax dealing 82% - 96.7%
Guaranteed OHKO with on zapdos at +2.
using porygon-z and maybe venemoth probably would use a pass if I use moth
Edit: Damage
Doing a quick calculation a modest +2 life orb tri-attack has the chance to 2HKO Specially defensive heatran doing 45.9% - 54.1% and +3 having a guarunteed 2HKO doing 57.3% - 67.4%
Also a +2 just barely misses the OHKO on tank lax dealing 82% - 96.7%
Guaranteed OHKO with on zapdos at +2.
destinyunknown
Banned deucer.
I have been using Porygon-Z and needless to say, it's pretty good! At first I tried Choice Specs but it didn't work too well since Porygon-Z has a hard time switching in (and Normal isn't exactly the best STAB in UU atm). However, I started using Agility with hazard support, and really got impressed. Against slower teams, Porygon-Z can act as a nuke, especially if it can switch in on something like Slowbro and grab a Download boost, while against balanced or offensive teams it can set up on pokemon like Gligar or some non STAB choiced moves (usually after letting something die though, but Agility Porygon works better in the lategame so it hasn't been a big deal really). It's especially good as a cleaner with hazard support, even more with a Download boost.
I may try Zoroark if I get time, as I have used Venomoth some times in the past.
I may try Zoroark if I get time, as I have used Venomoth some times in the past.
I've been playtesting with all three Research Week mons, and I have to say Venomoth has been a bit of a letdown for me. Relying on Sleep Powder to cripple opponents is never fun, and Venomoth's Speed is rather underwhelming as well. Porygon-Z and Zoroark, however, never cease to amaze me. Porygon-Z is extremely powerful - I favor the double dance variant, as it can actually set up on more targets than you might think. After an Agility, it outspeeds even fast Choice Scarf users - and this is with a Modest nature. Tri-Attack literally obliterates everything that doesn't resist it, and some frailer things that do. Zoroark is always fun to play with, as if you bring it out mid- to late-game, sometimes the opponent will have forgotten about it, and you can easily surprise them - multiple times if you play intelligently. Dark Pulse / Grass Knot / Flamethrower all provide excellent coverage. Overall, I'm really pleased with the results of playing with Porygon-Z and Zoroark, but not so much Venomoth.
Yeah, Venomoth usually needs two QDs before it can do anything. Reflecting this, I think the standard spread could use bit of alteration, calling for enough bulk to survive a Scarf/Leftovers Heracross Stone Edge and dance again. The speed is a bit tricky, depending on how high you want to go. I'd say, go Timid and up to at least 264 to outspeed base 130s after one dance to get the jump on rare Crobat and Aerodactyl. Failing that, 248 Speed is enough to get past Scarf Flygon after two boosts.
Though I haven't used Venomoth, I've played against it a lot lately and it really depends on what kind of team Venomoth is playing against. Tinted Lens Bug Buzz is just godly, but Venomoth's problem is that it can't run bulk and power at the same time since it needs max or near max Speed.
With a Quiver Dance, Venomoth wreaks havoc against faster teams that rely on resistances to handle it, and it even can cripple a potential counter with Sleep Powder. I think a mono-attacker with Substitute could be viable, since often Venomoth isn't able to QuiverPass.
With a Quiver Dance, Venomoth wreaks havoc against faster teams that rely on resistances to handle it, and it even can cripple a potential counter with Sleep Powder. I think a mono-attacker with Substitute could be viable, since often Venomoth isn't able to QuiverPass.
Anything you pass to with Venomoth needs to be really bulky, which will make it harder to revenge via Scarfer or priority, and guarantees survival upon pass. For instance, anything Venomoth will die to Azelf will die to. Pass to something like Suicune instead, who is decently powerful, has adequate coverage, and is next to impossible to OHKO. I've used Nidoking as my main recipient for a very long time, but the advent of Scarf Darmanitan has discouraged this somewhat. Nidoqueen might work a little better in this metagame, but she's not really bulky enough to justify that noticeable drop in Speed.
I have found that venemoth passes very well after 1 to 2 boosts to Nidoking as Crew said. also I tested Suicune and if you can pass it well on the switch it can sweep without any issues. Zoroark can handle teams on his own if you play smart with him. I used Gallade as his cover because of a potential psychic attack allowing Zoroark to switch in easy. Also Tinted Lense Bug Buzz is good on the bad switch. Gligar after two boosts becomes a satanic wall. Not peaking high on the ladder but that is more bad playing and bad luck than the pokemon themselves. These guys all work quite well on teams if played right.
Had some fun with all 3 mons though the UU ladder has honestly been too dead to really get any meaningful games in, it's honestly in a state of constant undead.
Zoroark-
A few things I'd say about him.
I'd have to agree with what has been said that you should reserve your Zoroark for mid game as that is where it excels in. However I'd also say always run him as the lead of your party. Reasoning is that during team preview you can simply switch your lead but the tendency is that your opponent will always assume you're leading with Zoroark and fall into a trap straight off the mark. Obviously replace your lead Zoroark with something that doesn't have a ability that gives it away.
Substitute should be a common requirement on him, it's too useful for scouting and keeps your Illusion intact allowing you to play longer with your opponents. This is amplified in usefulness if you run him alongside a effective mon who is also known for running subs.
In theory running a ghost as Zoroark's partner should be brilliant due to the defensive type synergy and Illusion. In practice it's very limited as even if you run something like U-Turn Zoroak w/ Crobat for extra annoyance they can still smash both in the face with a Stone Edge. He actually pairs better with offensive mons who are strong enough to force switches simply through the threat of them being there.
Porygon-Z
Bigger fan of Specs w/ Download to be perfectly honest. Double dance Pory just takes too much risk to get going and lacks coverage and is prone to priority revenge kills. With Weaville, Azumarill, Technitop, Bisharp and physical Mew (How the fuck is this thing still in UU?) seemingly becoming popular again lately this is a major point.
It's honestly not that hard to pick off the things that Spec Pory dislikes, they amount to Steel/Ghost, most Rock's will still get 2HKO'd by the Tri Attack. Most annoying really is that you have to build round to support Pory-Z to get it into play and its tendency to be easily picked off. But I'd say if you make the effort Pory-Z is utterly frightening and one of the most difficult to counter things out there.
Venomoth
Quiver Dance BP'd to Pory-Z is downright sexy, not really easy or practical to do but still sexy nevertheless. Otherwise there isn't much to say about Venomoth because he just does what is said on the tin. As others have said Venomoth needs the +2 to attempt a sweep himself. But often the sane thing to do is just get the +1 and BP it off to something else.
He's honestly best partnered up with some bulky stuff who lack that extra bit of power to be threatening. Seeing things like Quiver Danced Empolean/Roserade/Raikou/Milotic/Gardevoir can almost instantly leave you de-moralized enough to insta-forfeit.
Zoroark-
A few things I'd say about him.
I'd have to agree with what has been said that you should reserve your Zoroark for mid game as that is where it excels in. However I'd also say always run him as the lead of your party. Reasoning is that during team preview you can simply switch your lead but the tendency is that your opponent will always assume you're leading with Zoroark and fall into a trap straight off the mark. Obviously replace your lead Zoroark with something that doesn't have a ability that gives it away.
Substitute should be a common requirement on him, it's too useful for scouting and keeps your Illusion intact allowing you to play longer with your opponents. This is amplified in usefulness if you run him alongside a effective mon who is also known for running subs.
In theory running a ghost as Zoroark's partner should be brilliant due to the defensive type synergy and Illusion. In practice it's very limited as even if you run something like U-Turn Zoroak w/ Crobat for extra annoyance they can still smash both in the face with a Stone Edge. He actually pairs better with offensive mons who are strong enough to force switches simply through the threat of them being there.
Porygon-Z
Bigger fan of Specs w/ Download to be perfectly honest. Double dance Pory just takes too much risk to get going and lacks coverage and is prone to priority revenge kills. With Weaville, Azumarill, Technitop, Bisharp and physical Mew (How the fuck is this thing still in UU?) seemingly becoming popular again lately this is a major point.
It's honestly not that hard to pick off the things that Spec Pory dislikes, they amount to Steel/Ghost, most Rock's will still get 2HKO'd by the Tri Attack. Most annoying really is that you have to build round to support Pory-Z to get it into play and its tendency to be easily picked off. But I'd say if you make the effort Pory-Z is utterly frightening and one of the most difficult to counter things out there.
Venomoth
Quiver Dance BP'd to Pory-Z is downright sexy, not really easy or practical to do but still sexy nevertheless. Otherwise there isn't much to say about Venomoth because he just does what is said on the tin. As others have said Venomoth needs the +2 to attempt a sweep himself. But often the sane thing to do is just get the +1 and BP it off to something else.
He's honestly best partnered up with some bulky stuff who lack that extra bit of power to be threatening. Seeing things like Quiver Danced Empolean/Roserade/Raikou/Milotic/Gardevoir can almost instantly leave you de-moralized enough to insta-forfeit.
Update:
Venemoth
I believe venemoth has found one of the best passers it could possibly want in Octillery. With Suction Cups he cannot be roared out. a LO boost and a +2 and if possible +3 QD boost Octillery has forced many a quit. After the boosts he becomes fast enough to outspeed even base 130s. He also reaches 618 at +2 and 772 at +3 which is enough to power through everything sans Blissey with ease.
He has wondeful coverage with Ice Beam , Energy Ball, Flamethrower, Surf there is not a single pokemon that resists his set and he does super effective damage to over 2/3 of all pokemon. Venemoth gives octillery everything he needs to be a god. venemoth does great with a focus sash. QD, survive the hit. sleep powder QD on the sleep or switch. QD another if he can stand it pass if he cant and you are on your way.
Venemoth
I believe venemoth has found one of the best passers it could possibly want in Octillery. With Suction Cups he cannot be roared out. a LO boost and a +2 and if possible +3 QD boost Octillery has forced many a quit. After the boosts he becomes fast enough to outspeed even base 130s. He also reaches 618 at +2 and 772 at +3 which is enough to power through everything sans Blissey with ease.
He has wondeful coverage with Ice Beam , Energy Ball, Flamethrower, Surf there is not a single pokemon that resists his set and he does super effective damage to over 2/3 of all pokemon. Venemoth gives octillery everything he needs to be a god. venemoth does great with a focus sash. QD, survive the hit. sleep powder QD on the sleep or switch. QD another if he can stand it pass if he cant and you are on your way.
Mach Punch and Quick Attack to name a couple.
Anywho, after some testing I must make my statement about the two I have been testing, Venomoth and Porygon-Z.
First off, Venomoth. This thing is freakin' awesome! I can not begin to describe how great it is to have a pokemon that can abuse Tinted Lens and Quiver Dance and when the going gets rough, Baton Pass off to something that will threaten Venomoth's "Counter". I personally use a Special Victini to pass the boosts to and i've also been experimenting with passing the boosts to a mixed Flash Fire Arcainine. Both destroy their usual counters by attacking on the special side. Venomoth can even sweep with Bug Buzz alone, due to Tinted Lens. Honestly, I don't see why Venomoth isn't UU.
Secondly, Porygon-Z.....This guy has been a mixed bag of tricks for me. His normal typing leaves much to be desired and his average bulk makes him vulnerable to most attacks. I have had the most success running a Choice Scarf on P-Z. With Trick Scarf P-Z effectively cripples the Snorlax and Bronzong that love to jump in on the fun trying to absorb a Tri-Attack. Speaking of Tri-Attack, this move is honestly the most beastly move that Porygon-Z can abuse. Even with a Timid nature P-Z can 2HKO most pokes in the tier that don't resist it. However, with all the Snorlax and Bronzong running around P-Z ends up having to wait till late game to sweep. If used right P-Z will be amazing, however, if you don't know what you're doing and don't know when to double switch you might notice P-Z being a dead weight Pokemon.
All in all, I think these two are great research worthy pokes that are extremely fun to use in UU.
@ Wigga: Octillery's base Speed and defenses are all remarkably low. +2 Speed still puts him in a position to be revenged by Scarf Flygon, Victini, Raikou, or Darmanitan. Some players will be confused by the sight of Venomoth and react improperly, which leads to a lot more wins than I care to admit, but I imagine any attack meant to threaten Venomoth would crush Octillery as well. Even if he doesn't die on the spot, with LO, he's not going to have much time to sweep afterward.
If it's coverage you want, Nidoking is your man (though relative frailty still applies). Togekiss seems to provide the best divide between coverage, longevity, and overall sweeping ability than any other recipient I've found.
If it's coverage you want, Nidoking is your man (though relative frailty still applies). Togekiss seems to provide the best divide between coverage, longevity, and overall sweeping ability than any other recipient I've found.
So I've been testing Porygon-Z for a week or two here, and I've come up with a few things.
I tested a few different variants of boosting sets on P-Z, and the most successful one I've found is a set consisting of Sub/NP/Tri Attack/Dark Pulse with adaptability. However, I was always finding myself hard-pressed to find a spot in the battle where i can bring in P-Z safely and set up. In theory, the double-dancing set (Agility/NP) would be a great late game sweeper, but finding two turns to safely set up is usually close to impossible.
Then I found my favorite Variant of P-Z that I've tried so far, the Choice Specs set. This set is one of my favorites because it packs alot of immediate power, and doesn't require turns of setup to get going. Another great aspect of this set is the fact that two extra spots are freed up for coverage moves, as opposed to the previously mentioned sets. This is crucial because of the fact that P-Z can carry HP Fighting, and no longer get the shit walled out of it by steel types. Also, access to trick can ruin some stall pokemon/walls, which is always good.
Lastly, on the Specs set, both adaptability and download have worked well. Adaptability helps Tri-Attack gets extremely powerful, but if download is used and P-Z can switch into a Special Attack boost, you will be at the same power as nasty plot with no turn of setup.
Yup, so thats what i found.
I tested a few different variants of boosting sets on P-Z, and the most successful one I've found is a set consisting of Sub/NP/Tri Attack/Dark Pulse with adaptability. However, I was always finding myself hard-pressed to find a spot in the battle where i can bring in P-Z safely and set up. In theory, the double-dancing set (Agility/NP) would be a great late game sweeper, but finding two turns to safely set up is usually close to impossible.
Then I found my favorite Variant of P-Z that I've tried so far, the Choice Specs set. This set is one of my favorites because it packs alot of immediate power, and doesn't require turns of setup to get going. Another great aspect of this set is the fact that two extra spots are freed up for coverage moves, as opposed to the previously mentioned sets. This is crucial because of the fact that P-Z can carry HP Fighting, and no longer get the shit walled out of it by steel types. Also, access to trick can ruin some stall pokemon/walls, which is always good.
Lastly, on the Specs set, both adaptability and download have worked well. Adaptability helps Tri-Attack gets extremely powerful, but if download is used and P-Z can switch into a Special Attack boost, you will be at the same power as nasty plot with no turn of setup.
Yup, so thats what i found.
Thats means your using the double dance set wrong. Your not supposed to try and set up BOTH agility and nasty plot. What your supposed to do is pick your poison and use it mid-late game. Either your opponent is left with faster sweepers but frail you choose agility, when they are left with slower but bulkier tanks/walls, you choose nasty plot. Ive been seeing alot of people use that set wrong.
X (Porygon-Z) @ Silk Scarf
Trait: Adaptability
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Tri Attack
- Hidden Power [Fighting]/Dark Pulse
- Agility
- Nasty Plot
Ive found this to be the most productive way of using it. The choice between dark pulse and HP fighting is strictly based on how the rest of your team is built. Silk Scarf is a great bluff(specs) in case you want to switch in P-Z early and still have that great power behind it. But to repeat what I said early. Ive seen a couple of battles where people tried to set up with both, which is not gonna happen unless you get hax.
Sitting at 1379, #2 on the ladder. This team has been good to me :3 I Edit: I guess I'll post my team, feel free to use it if you want. Chandy / Heracross / Swampert / Zoroark / Mew / Flygon.
This has been a fun research round with some really interesting pokemon. It seems like all 3 can be used very successfully with proper support and everything. I couldn't quite put together a top ten team, but I did alright with my Porygon-z. Sub, NP, Tri Attack and HP fighting was my set I used. I had a few pursuit users so Dark Pulse was necessary, as killing ghosts is usually easier than killing steels and friends. It's extremely easy to bluff a choice item with p-z.. making it extremely easy to get a sub up later in the game and cause some serious damage.
Anyway good choices on the pokes. I hope next round is just as fun (;
Anyway good choices on the pokes. I hope next round is just as fun (;
Venomoth (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Sleep Powder
- Quiver Dance
- Giga Drain
- Bug Buzz
Here's the set I run on my semi Volt Turn team, not as a Baton Passer, but as a sweeper, and it does quite well. Volt Turn allows Venomoth to easily come in on a slower pokemon (base 90 is actually quite decent, outspeeding threats like Nidoking and Suicune) and put it to sleep. From then, you can sweep with a Quiver Dance or two. It's not that easy, because the omnipresent Scarf Flygon, Victini, and Darmanitan all outspeed and OHKO it at +1, but if those threats are eliminated, or your opponent slips up and lets you get to +2, it might as well be GG. +2 Tinted Lens Bug Buzz just about OHKOes everything in the tier that doesn't have massive special bulk. And since you really don't need coverage with Tinted Lens, you can run Giga Drain to heal Venomoth from all that Life Orb damage.
Bulky waters may be able to take a hit or two, but can do little in return. Even if they can phaze you out, you can heal with Giga Drain and hopefully come in another day. Really, the only common counter that isn't scarfed is Snorlax, who can take a Sleep Powder, isn't 2HKOed by +2 Bug Buzz, and OHKOes with Body Slam.
Now, it's actually hard to get to +2 against a decent opponent. So at +1, Venomoth is a quite a bit weaker, and especially a lot slower, easily checked by only a few, albeit very common pokemon. It also misses out on a few key OHKOes by just a couple %, which hurts. And I'm not going to even go into its horrendous physical bulk (although after a Quiver Dance it can actually take Heat Wave from a Zapdos).
Venomoth is quite an effective pokemon, and with the proper team support, can wreck through entire teams.
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I also run a Life Orb Zoroark on the same team, and it certainly does increase the pressure on the opponent dramatically. Sucker Punch is great for taking down Chandelure and heavily weakened Flygon, and Dark Pulse and Flamethrower have good coverage and power. And as always, U-Turn is great for scouting and grants you a ton of momentum. Illusion is a brilliant ability, but only if you play with it craftily and cleverly, much like Zoroark it is itself.
Can't wait for the next round of pokemon.
Trait: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Sleep Powder
- Quiver Dance
- Giga Drain
- Bug Buzz
Here's the set I run on my semi Volt Turn team, not as a Baton Passer, but as a sweeper, and it does quite well. Volt Turn allows Venomoth to easily come in on a slower pokemon (base 90 is actually quite decent, outspeeding threats like Nidoking and Suicune) and put it to sleep. From then, you can sweep with a Quiver Dance or two. It's not that easy, because the omnipresent Scarf Flygon, Victini, and Darmanitan all outspeed and OHKO it at +1, but if those threats are eliminated, or your opponent slips up and lets you get to +2, it might as well be GG. +2 Tinted Lens Bug Buzz just about OHKOes everything in the tier that doesn't have massive special bulk. And since you really don't need coverage with Tinted Lens, you can run Giga Drain to heal Venomoth from all that Life Orb damage.
Bulky waters may be able to take a hit or two, but can do little in return. Even if they can phaze you out, you can heal with Giga Drain and hopefully come in another day. Really, the only common counter that isn't scarfed is Snorlax, who can take a Sleep Powder, isn't 2HKOed by +2 Bug Buzz, and OHKOes with Body Slam.
Now, it's actually hard to get to +2 against a decent opponent. So at +1, Venomoth is a quite a bit weaker, and especially a lot slower, easily checked by only a few, albeit very common pokemon. It also misses out on a few key OHKOes by just a couple %, which hurts. And I'm not going to even go into its horrendous physical bulk (although after a Quiver Dance it can actually take Heat Wave from a Zapdos).
Venomoth is quite an effective pokemon, and with the proper team support, can wreck through entire teams.
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I also run a Life Orb Zoroark on the same team, and it certainly does increase the pressure on the opponent dramatically. Sucker Punch is great for taking down Chandelure and heavily weakened Flygon, and Dark Pulse and Flamethrower have good coverage and power. And as always, U-Turn is great for scouting and grants you a ton of momentum. Illusion is a brilliant ability, but only if you play with it craftily and cleverly, much like Zoroark it is itself.
Can't wait for the next round of pokemon.
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