Return'd

[The Immortal]

Sponging priority would mean a lot more if it outsped anything. As of right now, it'll outspeed Azumarill sets that don't invest in Speed at all, and... I guess if someone's running banded Quick Attack/Mach Punch they'd be afraid to spam it. But many of those mons will inevitably be carrying coverage moves that will fuck Jellicent up. Point is that Jellicent comes in to take a priority move and has to switch out of the coverage move that comes after it.

With Knock Off potentially being common, Jellicent is probably not going to be effective.

Gengar might be more what you're looking for. It can only take on Normal- and Fighting-type priority moves, but at least it can use its typing and speed to get the drop on stuff. And with a sash, it can at least get off a WoW on the target or drop a Destiny Bond on the way. Beyond that, nothing really qualifies as a 'priority sponge' in a meaningful way. I guess Starmie can run fast defensive sets to take Aqua Jets, Bullet Punches, Mach Punches, Ice Shards, and Vacuum Waves, though it might not have the power to properly retaliate without SpA investment.

Defensive Starmie can use Return'd Scald to burn physical attackers. The power boost makes up for the lack in SpA investment.

Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Psyshock / Reflect Type

Literally copied from OU.

 

[Scyther NO Swiping]

What about SmackDown in this meta? A lot of Rock-types typically suffer from not having a good STAB move, and now they get a great one at base 102 SmackDown with the benefit of knocking the foe down (although the majority of Flying-types just fear a strong Rock-type move and don't mind the secondary effect quite as much). I see this as a possible move on Rock, Ground, and maybe Steel-types, paired with Earthquake to hit anything hard such as Skarmory that don't mind being hit with a strong Rock-type move as much.

e: Thought about it more and Rock Tomb could be good too for things that just need help in terms of speed.

 

[The Immortal]

We got a super cool banner thanks to Litra!

@ above, somehow I missed Rock Tomb when looking up stat dropping moves. Added it to the list!

 

[Dr. Phd. BJ]

Since the thread has been on a hiatus, I thought I would contribute an idea. Bisharp. This thing was scary in ou, but even scarier in return'd. It has multiple viable options for using the 100 bp. It can fire off insane knock offs, harder sucker punches, or even run pursuit so that u consistently trap stuff without risking much. Priority might be a pain, but it sounds like a solid mon with potential.

 

[The Immortal]

I've coded Return'd and added it to the second post so that any server can make it playable! If you do, let me know so I can link it.

For those who play, post any weird interactions you might find that need clarifying, or any issues.

 

[Stocke]

Just noticed that Cross Chop is in the OP under the category of moves with high critical hit ratios; why is that? Cross Chop already has 100 BP, there's no noticeable benefit to using it in your first slot, particularly since priority moves get boosted too.

also:

I've coded Return'd and added it to the second post so that any server can make it playable! If you do, let me know so I can link it.

For those who play, post any weird interactions you might find that need clarifying, or any issues.

cool! Hope this gets implemented on a server soon.

 

[The Immortal]

It's playable on http://rom.psim.us!

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

It's playable on http://rom.psim.us!

First match!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-returnd-940
So, it looks like acro is hard coded to 55. Rip. Other than that it works perfectly!
Pinsir puts in work, man.

 

[The Immortal]

First match!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-returnd-940
So, it looks like acro is hard coded to 55. Rip. Other than that it works perfectly!
Pinsir puts in work, man.

Yeah... PS! hardcodes it to 110 instead of doubling. If it wins OMotM, I'll fix it on main with a mod. I think a few other moves with base power effects will be broken too, such as Hex.

 

[xJownage]

Can we PLEASE quickban mega pinsir? Protect mega pinsir is basically impossible to revenge at +2. It can get away with running feint, EQ, protect, and Sd just because Feint KOs most of its resistances. Sdef Zapdos is literally one-shotted after rocks. Standard Metagross takes about 80% from +2 feint alone. Thundurus? You're dreaming, it's an OHKO and its not even close. Protect shields it from Mega Lopunny, which is the one thing that could actually revenge it. Mega Diancie is OHKO'd. Hell, I'm basically resorting to running scarftran to beat it, but scarftran has a 50% chance of being one-shot after rocks. Klefki can only paralyze it if it hasn't taken prior damage. Raikou is dead. Rotom-W is dead. You see a pattern here?

Mega Pinsir with feint doesn't only lack counters, it lacks checks. Resists can't live unless they're unnaturally bulky or highly invested, and even then those resists are easily 2hko'd and many standard bulky mons are just one-shot before they can blink. It basically forces you to run Ditto just to get off easily, because if it gets off an SD, it will 6-0 almost every team you put out there.

 

[Dr. Phd. BJ]

I also think it needs quick ban. Look at the teams. Look how overcentralizing it is. Two scarfzones, ditto, and specifically pledging not to use mega pinsir pre game. Lots of the things that revenge it can't switch in. On another note, water types are so strong. My team originally had Pinsir, but then since I was told not to use it, I threw on a random blastoise. And oml it hits like a truck. Other water types consist of banded azu / crawdaunt. Peep the calc in the chat at turn 16. That is insane. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-returnd-958

 

[The Immortal]

Looks like priority: the meta.

I'm (by me I mean Marty) going to look into a couple of moves to see how they work in-game when their base power is changed. It's quite possible that Pursuit, for example, is fixed.

Also, yeah, definitely Mega Pinsir will be looked at once everything is in running order.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Looks like priority: the meta.

I'm (by me I mean Marty) going to look into a couple of moves to see how they work in-game when their base power is changed. It's quite possible that Pursuit, for example, is fixed.

Also, yeah, definitely Mega Pinsir will be looked at once everything is in running order.

TBh, I don't think M-Pinsir is *that* big an issue. First off, it has only one good option- it cant afford to buff knock off, or any other neat tools. Secondly, it isn't stupidly fast, so it can be outsped. The real reasons, however, are keys and 4 mss.

First off, M-Pinsir requires feint. Its the only reason it is good. It needs protect, too, or else it dies to mlop. This gives it 2 move to play with. No matter what it picks, it gets walls- Without eq it is blocked by meta/mmeta (it still is, but less so) & doublade, without close combat skarmory ignores it, without rock slide/koff it is walled by Zapdos.

Secondly, Its just a little too weak. With Banded Zor, Mmeta, and Azu all being easily able to live a hit (while being impossible to switch in on), Pinsir often finds itself sacking its teammates. MMeta is the worst of these, as it can switch in on any move bar eq/koff quite comfortably.

Finally, there are the keys. They can twave, magnet rise, ignore attacks, and drain with draining kiss. Pinsir is forced out by them, and they can easily provide their teammates with setup opportunities. It might still be ban worthy, but it isn't as OMG I'm broken plz bad as everyone is claiming.


On a similar note, Banded metagross is obscene. It hits over 600 attack, has a 100 bp, spammable stab priority, and can just rip open pinsir/Azu/what have you. Its perhaps the best revenge killer in the tier rn, easily able to take on most of the sets theorymonned thus far with ease.

 

[yoman5]

TBh, I don't think M-Pinsir is *that* big an issue. First off, it has only one good option- it cant afford to buff knock off, or any other neat tools. Secondly, it isn't stupidly fast, so it can be outsped. The real reasons, however, are keys and 4 mss.

First off, M-Pinsir requires feint. Its the only reason it is good. It needs protect, too, or else it dies to mlop. This gives it 2 move to play with. No matter what it picks, it gets walls- Without eq it is blocked by meta/mmeta (it still is, but less so) & doublade, without close combat skarmory ignores it, without rock slide/koff it is walled by Zapdos.

Secondly, Its just a little too weak. With Banded Zor, Mmeta, and Azu all being easily able to live a hit (while being impossible to switch in on), Pinsir often finds itself sacking its teammates. MMeta is the worst of these, as it can switch in on any move bar eq/koff quite comfortably.

Finally, there are the keys. They can twave, magnet rise, ignore attacks, and drain with draining kiss. Pinsir is forced out by them, and they can easily provide their teammates with setup opportunities. It might still be ban worthy, but it isn't as OMG I'm broken plz bad as everyone is claiming.


On a similar note, Banded metagross is obscene. It hits over 600 attack, has a 100 bp, spammable stab priority, and can just rip open pinsir/Azu/what have you. Its perhaps the best revenge killer in the tier rn, easily able to take on most of the sets theorymonned thus far with ease.

Is there a significant power jump from TC megagross to banded metagross?

Unrelated: if acro isn't hardcoded talonflame sounds obnoxious. Facade sounds like another possible issue as well, though I'm unsure how good the abusers are in a meta filled with such absurd priority.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Is there a significant power jump from TC megagross to banded metagross?

Unrelated: if acro isn't hardcoded talonflame sounds obnoxious. Facade sounds like another possible issue as well, though I'm unsure how good the abusers are in a meta filled with such absurd priority.

Its about 20% (assuming best sets), plus not taking a mega.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 260-308 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 314-372 (97.2 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
If megagross is adamant as well (not reccomended), then it is 10%.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 288-338 (89.1 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO


Ofc, Megagross is bulkier, way faster, and not choice locked, but hey.

 

[xJownage]

TBh, I don't think M-Pinsir is *that* big an issue. First off, it has only one good option- it cant afford to buff knock off, or any other neat tools. Secondly, it isn't stupidly fast, so it can be outsped. The real reasons, however, are keys and 4 mss.

First off, M-Pinsir requires feint. Its the only reason it is good. It needs protect, too, or else it dies to mlop. This gives it 2 move to play with. No matter what it picks, it gets walls- Without eq it is blocked by meta/mmeta (it still is, but less so) & doublade, without close combat skarmory ignores it, without rock slide/koff it is walled by Zapdos.

Secondly, Its just a little too weak. With Banded Zor, Mmeta, and Azu all being easily able to live a hit (while being impossible to switch in on), Pinsir often finds itself sacking its teammates. MMeta is the worst of these, as it can switch in on any move bar eq/koff quite comfortably.

Finally, there are the keys. They can twave, magnet rise, ignore attacks, and drain with draining kiss. Pinsir is forced out by them, and they can easily provide their teammates with setup opportunities. It might still be ban worthy, but it isn't as OMG I'm broken plz bad as everyone is claiming.


On a similar note, Banded metagross is obscene. It hits over 600 attack, has a 100 bp, spammable stab priority, and can just rip open pinsir/Azu/what have you. Its perhaps the best revenge killer in the tier rn, easily able to take on most of the sets theorymonned thus far with ease.

Uhhhhh

If Mega Pinsir gets off an SD for any reason, lets look at some calcs of would be revenge killers. These are common mons put on teams to attempt to beat this. I think you aren't comprehending how ridiculously powerful feint is after a boost, and how easily this beats would-be checks.

+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 311-366 (81.2 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 361-426 (120.7 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 258-304 (79.8 - 94.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (scarftran)
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 406-478 (118.3 - 139.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 654-769 (170.3 - 200.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 216-255 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (if you take any chip damage, you just die)
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 154-182 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Magnezone is so good this can just be rendered irrelevant)
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Klefki: 294-346 (92.7 - 109.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 207-244 (65.2 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This thing's very few checks have to sacrifice almost all of their health in the process of just checking it. Furthermore, many common, viable resistances are just RAPED by its obscene power. Anything with +2 priority that is doing THIS to mew should not be legal:
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 543-640 (159.2 - 187.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For reference, that is over 50% stronger than Altarianite Dragonite's +1 Espeed in Mix-and-Mega
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 348-411 (102 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's stronger than AAA Adaptability +2 Bisharp's Sucker Punch
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 486-572 (142.5 - 167.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's stronger than +2 Mega Lucario's Close Combat
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 542-638 (158.9 - 187%) -- guaranteed OHKO

When something has +2 priority that is stronger than the most powerful attack of an UBERS WALLBREAKER, you have a HUGE FUCKING PROBLEM. NO, this is NOT manageable and it's basically impossible to switch into period even running something like Skarmory. It's few reliable checks have to cripple themselves to beat it, and offensive teams literally get 6-0'd because it's so obscenely powerful. Get this shit out of our tier.

 

[Dr. Phd. BJ]

Uhhhhh

If Mega Pinsir gets off an SD for any reason, lets look at some calcs of would be revenge killers. These are common mons put on teams to attempt to beat this. I think you aren't comprehending how ridiculously powerful feint is after a boost, and how easily this beats would-be checks.

+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 311-366 (81.2 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 361-426 (120.7 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 258-304 (79.8 - 94.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (scarftran)
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 406-478 (118.3 - 139.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 654-769 (170.3 - 200.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 216-255 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (if you take any chip damage, you just die)
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 154-182 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Magnezone is so good this can just be rendered irrelevant)
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Klefki: 294-346 (92.7 - 109.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 207-244 (65.2 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This thing's very few checks have to sacrifice almost all of their health in the process of just checking it. Furthermore, many common, viable resistances are just RAPED by its obscene power. Anything with +2 priority that is doing THIS to mew should not be legal:
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 543-640 (159.2 - 187.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For reference, that is over 50% stronger than Altarianite Dragonite's +1 Espeed in Mix-and-Mega
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 348-411 (102 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's stronger than AAA Adaptability +2 Bisharp's Sucker Punch
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 486-572 (142.5 - 167.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's stronger than +2 Mega Lucario's Close Combat
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 542-638 (158.9 - 187%) -- guaranteed OHKO

When something has +2 priority that is stronger than the most powerful attack of an UBERS WALLBREAKER, you have a HUGE FUCKING PROBLEM. NO, this is NOT manageable and it's basically impossible to switch into period even running something like Skarmory. It's few reliable checks have to cripple themselves to beat it, and offensive teams literally get 6-0'd because it's so obscenely powerful. Get this shit out of our tier.

Not to mention u can use teammates to handle its "answers." It is a mon that is way overcentralizing, and if u think u found a "100% answer," u are wrong. Another thing is that feint frees up a coverage move. This could be stone edge for Zapdos, or protect for mega lop. It also has insanely underrated physical defense (120) so it isn't vulnerable to other priority, if u get prioritized some how. If u have pinsirs return with +2 priority in any tier / om really, u know how broken it would be? If u don't qb it, the meta will turn into the same teams, with scarfzone, mpinsir, and 4 fillers. This makes the tier lose diversity, interest for many people, and it won't attract many people to play. On a different note, ditto sounds good in this meta.

 

[G-Luke]

Mega Pinsir was found to be broken in Sketchmons after gaining access to Extreme Speed, a 80 base power move prior to STAB and -ate boost.

Now in Return'd, it gets access to a 102 base power attack that BREAKS Protect + STAB + -ate boost and a +2 priority bracket. My comrades basically went over the sheer brokeness of Mega Pinsir, but I wanted to address certain moves in general.

In Move Equality, certain moves were proved to be too broken once gaining the boost in power. Banning Mega Pinsir might releave the stress of THAT issue, but after awhile, Im sure people will be screaming (Fake Out's too strong! Crawdaunt smashes resists! Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice wrekts everything! Diggersby broken! Ban Scald!! Priority is too strong!!)

Priority is too strong. This is the underlying issue with this meta. With Priority being very common and being extremely powerful, it REALLY limits teambuilding. Setting up is pointless, Stall is completely pointless, alot of things are completely pointless.

Fake Out does massive damage, is almost impossible to outprioritize and GUAREENTEES a free turn. Sure it can only be used once, but most viable users of Fake Out wouldnt want anything else to be boosted.

There is a reason Gamefreak made priority moves generally low in base power.

I believe something should be done about priority in this meta.

(Plus Mud Slap should be autobanned)

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Uhhhhh

If Mega Pinsir gets off an SD for any reason, lets look at some calcs of would be revenge killers. These are common mons put on teams to attempt to beat this. I think you aren't comprehending how ridiculously powerful feint is after a boost, and how easily this beats would-be checks.

+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 311-366 (81.2 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 361-426 (120.7 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 258-304 (79.8 - 94.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (scarftran)
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 406-478 (118.3 - 139.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 654-769 (170.3 - 200.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 216-255 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (if you take any chip damage, you just die)
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 154-182 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Magnezone is so good this can just be rendered irrelevant)
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Klefki: 294-346 (92.7 - 109.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 207-244 (65.2 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This thing's very few checks have to sacrifice almost all of their health in the process of just checking it. Furthermore, many common, viable resistances are just RAPED by its obscene power. Anything with +2 priority that is doing THIS to mew should not be legal:
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 543-640 (159.2 - 187.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For reference, that is over 50% stronger than Altarianite Dragonite's +1 Espeed in Mix-and-Mega
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 348-411 (102 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's stronger than AAA Adaptability +2 Bisharp's Sucker Punch
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 486-572 (142.5 - 167.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's stronger than +2 Mega Lucario's Close Combat
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 542-638 (158.9 - 187%) -- guaranteed OHKO

When something has +2 priority that is stronger than the most powerful attack of an UBERS WALLBREAKER, you have a HUGE FUCKING PROBLEM. NO, this is NOT manageable and it's basically impossible to switch into period even running something like Skarmory. It's few reliable checks have to cripple themselves to beat it, and offensive teams literally get 6-0'd because it's so obscenely powerful. Get this shit out of our tier.

First off, lol no. This is an offensive meta, but pinsir is freaing frail. It shouldn't have many- if any- chances to set up. Secondly, what are you ditching for swords dance?This requires you to set up rocks (hard, but not impossible), set up (since it only needs to live, this isn't *that* difficult), and it requires your opponent to not have good sets.
For instance, Metagross should run max hp or def, because it isn't outspeeding anything. Even if it doesn't, Mega metagross is solidly more bulky. Magnezone, which you use to beat skarm? Run shed shell, or heck a magnezone of your own, which easily beats pinsir, too.
And if you switch? Well, if the opponent gets rocks off at the same time you did, congratulations! Your pinsir is now at 25%- not counting how much they did while you set up. Since uninvested keys 3hko, well, gl with that.

Basically- Pinsir at +2 w/ rocks and rocks off its own side is broken if you don't have a counter. You can switch in while it sets up, for goodness sake. And nice job calcing a Resist as something Pinsir is stronger than.

 

[xJownage]

First off, lol no. This is an offensive meta, but pinsir is freaing frail. It shouldn't have many- if any- chances to set up. Secondly, what are you ditching for swords dance?This requires you to set up rocks (hard, but not impossible), set up (since it only needs to live, this isn't *that* difficult), and it requires your opponent to not have good sets.
For instance, Metagross should run max hp or def, because it isn't outspeeding anything. Even if it doesn't, Mega metagross is solidly more bulky. Magnezone, which you use to beat skarm? Run shed shell, or heck a magnezone of your own, which easily beats pinsir, too.
And if you switch? Well, if the opponent gets rocks off at the same time you did, congratulations! Your pinsir is now at 25%- not counting how much they did while you set up. Since uninvested keys 3hko, well, gl with that.

Basically- Pinsir at +2 w/ rocks and rocks off its own side is broken if you don't have a counter. You can switch in while it sets up, for goodness sake. And nice job calcing a Resist as something Pinsir is stronger than.

Excuse me, I changed Mew to typeless so it was neutral. Should've clarified - it's literally as strong as adapt luc's close combat without resistances or anything.

>isn't "THAT" difficult. If you honestly think that it's too hard to get one off versus offense, you haven't played much. It straps you to not go for draco meteor or potentially lose whatever is on the field just at the risk of letting it set up. It doesn't have "counters" either, because quite literally nothing walls it. Magnezone has to run scarf. Running shed shell skarm means you get 2hko'd again and the mag can just trap it more than once. Did you really just call it "difficult" to get rocks up? It's HARDER to control hazards in this metagame because you basically have to sack mons to get off a defog/rapid spin, and because of HO, every good team should be running a hazard setter in this meta.

Idk why you keep grasping; you haven't listed a single reliable counter to this thing considering klefki even gets 2hko'd after one move with EQ + Feint. And no, skarm doesn't laugh at it, because if you get skarm in on an SD, you basically have to run brave bird or else you take 50% in the process of whirlwinding. Getting off a SD is a prediction thing, and the threat of getting an SD off means the opponent is likely to stay in and sack a mon to your pinsir just to prevent it from setting up. Now stop this please. You're WAYYY stretching if you think that something with equivalent power to Mega Lucario at +2 priority is not broken. No. Just no.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Excuse me, I changed Mew to typeless so it was neutral. Should've clarified - it's literally as strong as adapt luc's close combat without resistances or anything.

>isn't "THAT" difficult. If you honestly think that it's too hard to get one off versus offense, you haven't played much. It straps you to not go for draco meteor or potentially lose whatever is on the field just at the risk of letting it set up. It doesn't have "counters" either, because quite literally nothing walls it. Magnezone has to run scarf. Running shed shell skarm means you get 2hko'd again and the mag can just trap it more than once. Did you really just call it "difficult" to get rocks up? It's HARDER to control hazards in this metagame because you basically have to sack mons to get off a defog/rapid spin, and because of HO, every good team should be running a hazard setter in this meta.

Idk why you keep grasping; you haven't listed a single reliable counter to this thing considering klefki even gets 2hko'd after one move with EQ + Feint. And no, skarm doesn't laugh at it, because if you get skarm in on an SD, you basically have to run brave bird or else you take 50% in the process of whirlwinding. Getting off a SD is a prediction thing, and the threat of getting an SD off means the opponent is likely to stay in and sack a mon to your pinsir just to prevent it from setting up. Now stop this please. You're WAYYY stretching if you think that something with equivalent power to Mega Lucario at +2 priority is not broken. No. Just no.

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mew: 564-664 (165.3 - 194.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 495-583 (145.1 - 170.9%) -- guaranteed OHK

Pinsir will never run adamant, or it dies to other Pinsir. Even if it did, well, lucario can run that too.

Outside of that, I think that their is something that you are fundementally not understanding. Pinsir doesn't break stall any harder than it did before. Geuss what? It already had a 102 bp aerialted stab, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't need that +2 priority to outspeed stall. Thus, taken from smogon- Skarmory can phaze Mega Pinsir with Whirlwind after taking a boosted hit, making Mega Pinsir lose its boosts. Alternatively, if Mega Pinsir is sufficiently weakened, then Skarmory can KO it with Brave Bird. In a similar vein, Hippowdon can tank a hit and phaze Mega Pinsir with Whirlwind. Landorus-T has Intimidate to neuter Mega Pinsir and can OHKO it with Stone Edge after taking a hit, though Pinsir has Hyper Cutter on the turn it Mega Evolves, nullifying Intimidate and allowing it to boost to +2 Attack instead of +1, guaranteeing a clean OHKO. A boosted Close Combat only gets a 2HKO on Rotom-W, which can either burn Pinsir with Will-O-Wisp or hit it with Volt Switch in return, though Rotom-W should be cautious about switching in on Mold Breaker Pinsir. Finally, Zapdos's bulk and typing make it an excellent answer to Mega Pinsir; even after a Swords Dance, Return is only a 2HKO.

Eq isn't gonna hit keys either, because magnet rise is both a thing and good.

Mega Pinsir was found to be broken in Sketchmons after gaining access to Extreme Speed, a 80 base power move prior to STAB and -ate boost.

Now in Return'd, it gets access to a 102 base power attack that BREAKS Protect + STAB + -ate boost and a +2 priority bracket. My comrades basically went over the sheer brokeness of Mega Pinsir, but I wanted to address certain moves in general.

In Move Equality, certain moves were proved to be too broken once gaining the boost in power. Banning Mega Pinsir might releave the stress of THAT issue, but after awhile, Im sure people will be screaming (Fake Out's too strong! Crawdaunt smashes resists! Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice wrekts everything! Diggersby broken! Ban Scald!! Priority is too strong!!)

Priority is too strong. This is the underlying issue with this meta. With Priority being very common and being extremely powerful, it REALLY limits teambuilding. Setting up is pointless, Stall is completely pointless, alot of things are completely pointless.

Fake Out does massive damage, is almost impossible to outprioritize and GUAREENTEES a free turn. Sure it can only be used once, but most viable users of Fake Out wouldnt want anything else to be boosted.

There is a reason Gamefreak made priority moves generally low in base power.

I believe something should be done about priority in this meta.

(Plus Mud Slap should be autobanned)

Game freak... really doesn't care. They made MRay. They made MGar. Balance really isn't a concern.

ALso, a lot of your point are... really annoying. Hyper voice gains all of 10 bp! That's the difference between modest and timid. How does priority beat stall? It wasn't going first anyway. Fake out can be blocked by protect, by ghosts, by plain resists because you can only smack it once.




On a completely different note, what happens if I put frustration in my first slot? Does it behave like normal or like return?

 

[tehy]

Outside of that, I think that their is something that you are fundementally not understanding. Pinsir doesn't break stall any harder than it did before. Geuss what? It already had a 102 bp aerialted stab, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't need that +2 priority to outspeed stall. Thus, taken from smogon- Skarmory can phaze Mega Pinsir with Whirlwind after taking a boosted hit, making Mega Pinsir lose its boosts. Alternatively, if Mega Pinsir is sufficiently weakened, then Skarmory can KO it with Brave Bird. In a similar vein, Hippowdon can tank a hit and phaze Mega Pinsir with Whirlwind. Landorus-T has Intimidate to neuter Mega Pinsir and can OHKO it with Stone Edge after taking a hit, though Pinsir has Hyper Cutter on the turn it Mega Evolves, nullifying Intimidate and allowing it to boost to +2 Attack instead of +1, guaranteeing a clean OHKO. A boosted Close Combat only gets a 2HKO on Rotom-W, which can either burn Pinsir with Will-O-Wisp or hit it with Volt Switch in return, though Rotom-W should be cautious about switching in on Mold Breaker Pinsir. Finally, Zapdos's bulk and typing make it an excellent answer to Mega Pinsir; even after a Swords Dance, Return is only a 2HKO.

But now that it doesn't need to run Feint, it has a free slot. Now that analysis can say what it wants but as a stall player : pinsir has very few solid counters, and with an extra slot for zapdos or w/e it's going to be real tough to beat.

If anything you're right that stall isn't that bothered by it, rather balance is. I would say offense is bothered by it, but why would you use full-on offense in this tier if Pinsir is in it?

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

But now that it doesn't need to run Feint, it has a free slot. Now that analysis can say what it wants but as a stall player : pinsir has very few solid counters, and with an extra slot for zapdos or w/e it's going to be real tough to beat.

If anything you're right that stall isn't that bothered by it, rather balance is. I would say offense is bothered by it, but why would you use full-on offense in this tier if Pinsir is in it?

Yeah. It doesn't really have any other non-returned moves to really hurt zapdos, and has a lot of pressure to run protect to fight fake out, but yeah. At least every stallmon makes it work a bit harder to set up.
inb4 rock tomb skarmory as a pinsir counter

 

[nightsitter]

What if the ordinarily-40-or-less-BP priority moves could only achieve half the power of normal moves? For example, Quick Attack, Feint, and Aqua Jet would have 51 BP, but Extreme Speed and Sucker Punch would have 102

 

[The Immortal]

What if the ordinarily-40-or-less-BP priority moves could only achieve half the power of normal moves? For example, Quick Attack, Feint, and Aqua Jet would have 51 BP, but Extreme Speed and Sucker Punch would have 102

No, I'm not making up custom rules for stuff.

I played several games with people and right now I definitely agree that Mega Pinsir should be banned because it's too powerful and restricts teambuilding. Literally the only answers to it are Scarf Heatran/Magnezone and Eviolite Doublade.