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Revisions - Pyroak discussion

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by Umbreon Dan, Dec 27, 2009.

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  1. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
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    This thread is here for the purpose of revising Pyroak, Smogon's third CAP Pokemon. Pyroak is widely considered to be the very weakest CAP creation of all. It was designed to be a bulky tank, but when placed in the metagame, we learned that being part Fire-type was a massive roadblock defensively.

    All users should feel free to suggest any revisions which you believe will improve Pyroak's usefulness in the CAP metagame. The elements we are looking at here are ability, movepool, and stat spread.

  2. KnightoftheWind

    KnightoftheWind
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    Pyroak should be best off taking a more offensive route. Defensively, it is outclassed by Celebi, as it lacks some of Celebi's useful resistances, has a weakness to Stealth Rock and it doesn't have that much other notable support moves.

    It's best off that Pyroak takes the role of a bulky mixed attacker. I suggest bumping its Attack up, as it is currently rather mediocre.
  3. Plus

    Plus real vibes
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    Yeah please make this a sweeper, Fire/Grass are nice offensive STABs for pokemon that aren't really seen that often in OU (Infernape, Heatran, Celebi, Breloom) and it's really not that good defensively. Yes, it's really outdone by Celebi and doesn't have the stupid SR weakness, but the one thing that Pyroak atm has that nothing else does is its Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer STABs that have no drawback thanks to Rock Head. Those two moves are probably the best offensive weapons Pyroak has, demolishing walls like Skarmory, Blissey, and Swampert pretty easily. The stat spread should be the biggest thing to fix, and maybe a few moves here and there if needed.

    A slight boost to Pyroak's speed, perhaps up to 65, would be nice as it could outspeed Tyranitars and hit back with Wood Hammer. I'm pretty sure we made Pyroak 60 so Tyranitar would have the opportunity to fight back, but IMO Pyroak was the result of the community being scared of two broken pokemon (Syclant and Revenankh), and giving us a piece of shit in the end (sorry pyroak!!). Dragons in general should still hold dominance over Pyroak, but I think Pyroak should beat Tyranitar after this revision is done.
  4. reyscarface

    reyscarface
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    What about focusing not only on sweeping capabilities, but also in what this thing can do as a Sub Seeder? Yeah, Celebi can do it too, but Celebi doesnt have the nice coverage this thing does, specially behind a sub. Also I thought that was the "concept" of Pyroak, making an ultimate subseeder.
  5. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Pyroak's attack is an absolutely pathetic 70 base right now. It definitely needs a major boost in that regard so that Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer are actually useful. I'm thinking an increase of 20-30 base ATK is in order. Additionally, it needs a speed boost. Pyroak's STABs are utterly walled by Heatran, who does severe damage back with its own Fire Blast, so a higher base speed than Heatran would be good to aim for imo (around 80 would be fine). In order to keep the BST from getting too crazy, we can borrow from its HP, DEF and even SATK if we really need to, but I think it wouldn't be broken even if we leave them alone. And finally, I really think it needs Slack Off. I'm somewhat surprised it doesn't have reliable recovery already (and no, Synthesis doesn't count, especially on something already weak to sandstorm), as a tank that's weak to Stealth Rock without reliable recovery isn't ever going to be successful in OU, especially a tank with poor defensive typing (see: Shuckle).
  6. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    Alright, so Pyroak demands the most sweeping changes, so here is a comprehensive new view. I still want to keep the "bulky offense" element of Pyroak in tact, but there are ways to up its stats without turning it into Mixape 2.0.

    Damaging Attacks:

    Add: Earthquake, Rock Slide. These two moves add solid coverage, and EQ is probably the most important. Head Smash is wicked overkill, and Stone Edge seems excessive too. Basically Rock Slide will act as a sort of check to Mence.

    Non-Damaging Attacks:


    Add: Swords Dance. This should have been on Pyroak in the first place, basically every Grass type gets it. Swords Dance lets it be a threat even after Intimidate.

    Base Stats update:

    This is a first draft, mind you:

    120/85/95/70/85/85. BST: 540.

    PSweep: 126 (Rank 5, Good)
    PTank: 187 (Rank 7, Excellent)
    SSweep: 109 (Rank 4, Above Average)
    STank: 167 (Rank 6, Very Good)
    ODB: -10.12 Moderate bias to Defense
    PSB: 5.6 Moderately biased towards Physical
    Overall Rating: 324 (Rank 6, Very Good)

    The largest changes here are the boosts of Attack and Speed to 85, and smaller drops in defenses. SA also took a big hit, but with both STAB Overheat and Leaf Storm at Pyroak's disposal, it can still run a mixed set effectively. 85 Base Speed lets you run a Scarf set without using a +Spe nature, and also outspeeds Arghonaut, Cylohm, and Mamoswine. It maintains excellent physical durability and decent special tanking.

    This combined with Swords Dance allows Pyroak to be a potent threat, outspeeding most or all of the mid-speed walls, outrun a lot of the powerful Base 80 pokemon, and still take nuetral hits decently well.
  7. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    I agree with basically most of what DK said - although I'd like Pyroak to shoot for around 100 Atk, and if no one else does something similar I'll try my hand to this. As for the moves I'd like Pyroak to have, I propose:

    1) Dragon Dance: It is basically the best stat up move in the game. Pyroak does not have skyhigh atk and speed to begin with, so it is not that great of a threat (also it suffers SR weakness), however, being resistant to Bullet Punch, and boasting such good STABs, is definitely a good thing to have.

    2) Dragon Claw, Dragon Pulse, Outrage: There is no Pokémon in OU which is broken with unSTABBed dragon moves, and I don't think Pyroak would be. However, coupled with Dragon Dance, they allow Pyroak to turn the tables against Latias, Salamence and co. Assuming 85 base Atk, Max Atk EVs, Adamant nature and Life Orb, Dragon Claw outright OHKOes min/min Latias after a Dragon Dance regardless of SR (for Salamence, you will need SR if you factor in Intimidate). Basically, if those moves are allowed, Pyroak would have the choice between smashing Heatran (EQ) or destroying Dragons (Dragon Claw - I don't think the other 2 moves would see much use anyway).

    As for the abilities, since I think Battle Armor is basically useless, I'd like to suggest Clorophyll. Pyroak has fantastic typing for a Sunny Day set, Synthesis would offset the recoil of LO and Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz, and overall it is Pyroak best shot at a mixed set.
  8. Raj

    Raj CAP Playtesting Expert

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    I don't want to lower Pyroak's Special Attack just to give it more Attack. Saying that, I don't think that we should lower its Defenses to make it more offensive either. Can we add 20-30 points to Attack and call it a day?

    Zarator, why is Rock Head useless? If we're trying to make Pyroak more Physical, moves like Wood Hammer and Flare Blitz will be very appealing with the ability?
  9. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    Crap! I meant Battle Armor, let me edit. LOL

    EDIT: @hydrolphin: There always is Breloom (or hell, even Jumpluff, but that may be a stretch) if you really want to use a Subseeder. I don't see why I would use a Immunity Pyroak over a Poison Heal Breloom, except in very situational circumstances.
  10. hydrolphin

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    I do agree that adding attack is probably the best route, as Pyroak already has the needed STABs, but there are two moves I would especially like to see on him. Bulk Up gives him a chance to boost up an attack stat that will likely be no higher than Base 90, but still be defensively minded. I also think Stone Edge is a good move for Pyroak to have-I ddon't think its overdoing it if the only other option is Rock Slide. Rock Slide is pretty terrible-it only has 75 BP and won't always hit. Its secondary effect wouldn't be useful on a slow pokemon like Pyroak. It wouldn't be awful on an offensive set, but anything that doesn't max attack will have trouble hurting stuff. And I don;t see why Stone Edge would be anymore broken than Rock Slide would be.

    As for a new ability over Battle Armor, I would like to see Immunity. It isn't anything amazing, but it prevents defensive Pyroak from being shut down by TS-which would give it an advantage over Celebi as a Sub Seeder.
  11. HD

    HD

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    Oak fetish go.

    Now I have a couple of ideas:
    Offensive Moves:
    Earthquake - When we made the tutor moves, 3 Pokemon were our main concerns. Heatran, Latias and Salamence. Earthquake covers Heatran without resorting to Earth Power, but won't see much use. The moves main purpose, in my eyes, is to scare off Heatran, who woukd wall practically anything Pyroak could throw at it.
    Dragon Claw - Dragon Claw covers Latias and Salamence, and the popularity of the two would surely make Dragon Claw used much more than Earthquake.

    These two moves are my top priority. When coupled with a Dragon Dance set, a moveset of Wood Hammer, Flare Blitz and Dragon Claw would reak havok, but still have something walling it.

    Support Moves:
    Dragon Dance - Dragon Dance lets Pyroak be a potent wall breaker that clears the way for sweeps for Pokemon like Dragon Dance Salamence, Dragon Dance Gyarados and others. Dragon Dance even lets Pyroak pull off sweeps with its boosted Speed and Attack. Quick note: The Fire/Grass/Dragon combination hits 8 out of 17 types but has the advantage of hitting dragons, while the Fire/Grass/Ground combination hits 10 of of 17 types but misses out on the Dragons while only hitting Heatran. This makes it so that the player must choose between having better SuperEffective coverage and hitting Heatran or hitting the Dragons who are more popular than Heatran.
    Spore/Sleep Powder - Spore/Sleep Powder (mostly Spore, however) will give an oppurtinity for Pyroak to set up a Substitute and then either Dragon Dance or Leech Seed for a more stall-based set.
    Thunder Wave/Stun Spore - Thunder Wave/Stun Spore, when coupled with Sleep Powder/Spre and Pyroak's defenses, makes Pyroak an effective double status-er/annoyer. Thunder Wave/Stun Spore also lets Pyroak sweep without the need of speed boosts and help other, slower teammates who aren't the fastest Pokemon around.
    Light Screen - Light Screen lets Pyroak be an effective Double Screener since he already gets Reflect. He doesn't get automatically get shut down by Taunt like other Double Screeners, namely Azelf, Cresselia, and can hit hard if a Taunt-er, like say Colossoil, comes and ruins the party.

    Original Stat Spread (for comparison):
    120 HP/70 Att/105 Def/95 SpAtt/90 SpDef/60 Spe
    My Stat Spread:
    120 HP/90 Att/107 Def/80 SpAtt/90 SpDef/79 Spe

    Physical Sweepiness: 126 Rank 5: Good
    Physical Tankiness: 215 Rank 8: Fantastic
    Special Sweepiness: 110 Rank 4: Above Average
    Special Tankiness: 175 Rank 7: Excellent
    Offense/Defense Balance: -14.48 Biased Towards Defense
    Physical/Special Balance: 8.11 Moderatly Biased Towards Physical
    Overall Rating: 348 Rank 6: Very Good

    Speed

    I chose 79 base speed for a couple of reasons:
    • It outspeeds major water-types that use little-to-no investment, which are Vaporeon, Arghonaut, and Suicune. In fact, with 172 Speed EVs and a neutral nature you outspeed everything below the standard Tentacruel, who runs no speed EVs.
    • With 252 Speed EVs and a plus-nature you get 282 Speed, which lets you beat neutral natured base 91s who run 252 Speed EVs and below. Notable things this number lets you outspeed are Max+Heatran, neutral natured 252 EVs Roserade, neutral natured 252 EVs Lucario, neutral natured 252 EVs Suicune, neutral natured 252 EVs Kingdra, neutral natured 252 EVs Mamoswine, all Tyranitar, all Vaporeon, all Scizor, all Swampert and all Empoleon. Please not that this is taking note that the Pokemon don’t have a Choice Scarf or speed boosts.
    • With a Choice Scarf 252 EVs and a positive nature, Pyroak reaches 423 speed. This lets it revenge such Pokemon as Choice Scarf Heatran, Kingdra that got 1 Dragon Dance, once Dragon Danced Gyarados, Starmie, Azelf, Gengar, Kitsunoh, Infernape, a regular MixMence, Colossoil, and Lucario, as well as others.
    • With a positive nature and 236 speed EVs, once you Dragon Dance you reach 418 speed, which outruns Choice Scarf Heatran with 252 speed EVs and a positive nature, who outspeeds every Pokemon who does not have a speed boost or scarf. For example: Max+ Latias, Max+ Kitsunoh, Max+ Salamence, Max+ Gyarados, Max+ Colossoil are all outsped. You lose out on other Dragon Dancers and scarfers who reach more than 418 speed, however.
    Attack
    I simply boosted the 70 base attack to 90 for better sweeping capabilities

    Calcs:
    Show Hide


    Wood Hammer
    • Jolly 252 Att EVs Wood Hammer Pyroak vs. Bold 188 HP EVs&252 Def EVs Vaporeon: 67.4% - 79.5%
    • Adamant 252 Att EVs Wood Hammer Pyroak vs. “ “: 73.7% - 87.1%
    Your standard WishPass Vaporeon is 2HKOed no matter what. If you happen to get at least 1 Dragon Dance boost, you do 100.4% - 118.3% with the Jolly version.
    • Jolly 252 Att EVs Wood Hammer Pyroak vs. Bold 252 HP EVs&252 Def EVs Suicune: 49.5% - 58.4%
    • Adamant 252 Att EVs Wood Hammer Pyroak vs. “ “: 54% - 64.4%
    Your standard CroCune is 2HKOed no matter what. If you happen to get at least 1 Dragon Dance boost, you do 74.3% - 87.6% with the Jolly version and 81.7% - 96.5% with the Adamant version.
    • Jolly 252 Att EVsWood Hammer Pyroak vs. Adamant 252 HP EVs&220 Def EVs Arghonaut: 62.3% - 73.9%
    • Adamant 252 Att EVs Wood Hammer Pyroak vs. “ “:68.1% - 80.2%
    Your standard Recovering Tank Arghonaut is 2HKOed no matter what.
    • Jolly 252 Att EVs Wood Hammer Pyroak vs. Calm 252 HP&120 Def Tentacruel: 50.5% - 59.6%
    • Adamant 252 Att EVs Wood Hammer Pyroak vs. “ “: 55.5% - 65.4%
    Your standard Toxic-Spiking Tentacruel is 2HKOed no matter what. If you’re curious, Jolly 252 Att EVs Earthquake does 56% - 66.5%, and Adamant 252 Att EVs Earthquake does 62.1% - 73.1%, making Wood Hammer the better choice in this situation. If you happen to get at least 1 Dragon Dance boost, you do 75.3% - 89% with the Jolly version and 83.2% - 98.1% with the Adamant version.

    • Jolly 252 Att EVs Wood Hammer Pyroak vs. 252 HP&252 Def Swampert: 175.2% - 205.9%
    I hope I don't have to the Adamant and DD calcs.
    • Jolly 252 Att EVs Wood Hammer Pyroak vs. 252 HP&40 Def Tyranitar: 45% - 53.5%
    • Adamant 252 Att EVs Wood Hammer Pyroak vs. " ": 49.5% - 58.4%
    The CurseTar was the bulkiest Tyranitar in the sets. Now if you get 1 DD: 66.8% - 79.2% with the Jolly version and 73.3% - 86.6% with the Adamant version. Luckily a sleeping Tyranitar with only Cruch/Payback is amazing set-up for a Drago Dance Pyroak.





    Flare Blitz
    • Jolly 252 Att EVs Flare Blitz Pyroak vs. Impish 252 HP&240 Def Skarmory: 34.7% - 41.9%
    • Adamant 252 Att EVs Flare Blitz Pyroak vs. " ": 38.3% - 45.5%
    The 'Torment Spiker' is one bulky mofo. You have a small chance to 2HKO if Skarmory switches in on Stealth Rock at least twice with the Adamant version. If you happen to Dragon Dance, the damage done is 52.7% - 62.9% with the Jolly version and 57.5% - 68.3% with the Adamant version. However, the standard Spiker Skarmory only runs 252 HP EVs&176 Def EVs,so I'll give you those calcs too: 36.5% - 43.7% withthe Jolly version, 40.1% - 47.3% with the Adamant version, 54.5% - 64.7% with the once DD'ed Jolly version and 59.9% - 70.7% with the once DD'ed Adamant version. Not much of a difference if you ask me.
    • Jolly 252 Att EV Flare Blitz Pyroak vs. Adamant 252 HP&12 Def Metagross: 44.5% - 52.7%
    • Adamant 252 Att EV Flare Blitz vs. " ": 48.4% - 57.7%
    It's an iffy 2HKO on the CB set, but Stealth Rock/Spikes fixes that. If you get 1 DD: 66.5% - 79.1% with the Jolly version and 73.1% - 86.3% with the Adamant version.
    • Jolly 252 Att EV Flare Blitz Pyroak vs. Sassy 252 HP&80 Def Bronzong: 49.7% - 59.2%
    • Adamant 252 Att EV Flare Blitz vs. " ": 55% - 64.5%
    The 'Standard Wall' Bronzong is 2HKOed :D. If you happen to get a DD, the Jolly version does 74.6% - 87.6% and the Adamant version does 81.7% - 96.4%.
    • Jolly 252 Att EV Flare Blitz Pyroak vs. Bold 252 HP&220 Def Celebi: 37.6% - 44.6%
    • Adamant 252 Att EV Flare Blitz vs. " ": 41.6% - 49%
    These are the only calcs that surpirse me. If you get 1 DD, the Jolly version does 55.4% - 65.8% and the Adamant version does 61.4% - 72.8%. bulky mofo :(





    Dragon Claw
    • Jolly 252 Att EVs Dragon Claw Pyroak vs. Rash 0 HP&0 Def Dragonite: 44% - 52%
    • Adamant 252 Att EVs Dragon Claw Pyroak vs. " ": 48.3% - 57%
    Eh, kind of worth it, especially if you have SR on the field. This is on the 'MixNite' set btw. If you get 1 DD the Jolly version does 66.3% - 78% and the Adamant version does 72.4% - 85.4%. I mean you could use Dragon Claw to hit it for at least SE, and it 2HKOes with a DD.
    • Jolly 252 Att EVs Dragon Claw Pyroak vs. Adamant 0 HP&0 Def Kingdra: 48.8% - 57.7%
    • Adamant 252 Att EVs Dragon Claw Pyroak vs. " ": 48.8% - 57.7%
    Eh, it's ok. With a DD, the Jolly version does 73.5% - 86.6% and the Adamant version does 80.4% - 94.8%. Dragon Claw is looking ok, but what bugs me is the power before a DD.
    • Jolly 252 Att EVs Dragon Claw Pyroak vs. 128 HP&0 Def Latias: 44.4% - 52.9%
    • Adamant 252 Att EVs Dragon Claw Pyroak vs. " ": 49.2% - 58.3%
    2HKOes. With a DD, the Jolly version does 67.3% - 79.3% and the Adamant version does 73.3% - 86.5%. My single quirk on Dragon Claw: you won't be using it on much except Dragons.
    • Jolly 252 Att EVs Dragon Claw Pyroak vs. Jolly 4 HP&0 Def Flygon: 54.3% - 64.2%
    • Adamant 252 Att EVs Dragon Claw Pyroak vs. " ": 59.6% - 70.2%
    With a DD, Jolly does 81.5% - 96% and Adamant does 89.4% - 105.3% Best for last etc:
    • -1 Jolly 252 Att EVs Dragon Claw Pyroak vs. Naughty 4 HP&0 Def Salamence: 33.2% - 39.3%
    • -1 Adamant 252 Att EVs Dragon Claw Pyroak vs. " ": 36.3% - 42.9%
    This factors in Intimidate if you did not see the little '-1'. If you survive whatever Salamence throws at you and DD, making your attack not -1, the calcs are: Jolly version does 49.5% - 58.6% and the Adamant version does 54.4% - 64%. IDK about Dragon Claw. You 2HKO all the Dragons except Salamence, whose Intimidate blocks the 2HKO, but if say you switch Pyroak in on Salamence he gets 2HKOed too.




    Special Attack
    The relatively high base 90 Special Attack has been downgraded to 80, which isn't a very big change. It also allows Pyroak to run a Mix set, ala MixMence who Draco Meteors once then kills with Outrage/Dragon Claw/Earthquake. A Specs set is also viable, maybe something like Leaft Storm/Grass Knot, Overheat/Fire Blast, Earth Power and an HP.

    HP and Defenses
    I kept the HP and Defenses the same except for the boost from 105 Base Defense to 107.
  12. Kamen Rider

    Kamen Rider

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    I agree with Zarator about adding Clorophyll as one of its abilites. There was a lot of talk of making Pyroak relevant in Sun teams but the suggestions at the time were too imbalanced to be considered.

    I think Clorophyll is a good choice because it, combined with Pyroak's typing, allows it to exploit all the advantages sun gives. It doesnt take SE from fire, it has STAB on boosted Fire attacks and on one turn Solarbeams. It would have the best healing move a sweeper could ask for, and it would have few weakness to exploit.

    In many ways it would pretty much become the constantly refered to but never used "Kingdra of the Sun" concept

    Edi: Should probably mention that I also think it should replace Battle Armor, Rock Head has its own advantages as people have mentioned and should stay.
  13. Namso

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    I've been thinking a lot about Pyroak recently. I agree that it has to be taken on a more offensive approach. Fire/Grass is a fantastic offensive combination, so Pyroak should abuse it as much as possible. With its current spread, its Attack stat is a bit lackluster to make use of Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer.

    I had an idea of giving Pyroak Dragon Dance and/or Swords Dance. By giving it Attack boosting moves, we don't need to necessarily upgrade its Attack stat by a whole lot. We can keep it as a bulky Dragon Dancer because that would be just as good. Also, a good thing about Dragon Dance is it increases Pyroak's pathetic Speed as well, which may help in the long run, and one Swords Dance can instantly make Pyroak a dangerous bulky sweeper.

    Taunt is another move I want Pyroak to have in its movepool. If Pyroak does happen to receive Dragon Dance, it could follow the footsteps of Gyarados as a bulky Taunt DDer. Also, Taunt is just a great move in general and helps Pyroak stop Pokemon from setting up themselves.

    I also agree with ReyScarface about the fact that we need to enhance Pyroak's SubSeeding capabilities. I mean, Pyroak's description itself states this:

    "Sturdy subseeding wall with good special attacking prowess."

    We need to make Pyroak a better SubSeeder because that's another important role Pyroak plays. With that being said, I have a few suggestions.

    Firstly, Pyroak should have access to Thunder Wave or Stun Spore, maybe Stun Spore would be better, as each move helps compensate for Pyroak's poor Speed. If Pyroak can paralyze the foe and set up Substitute first, that would make it such a good SubSeeder in my opinion. The set could look like Lava Plume / Substitute / Leech Seed / Stun Spore, that would be a fantastic SubSeeding set and status abuser. No other Pokemon can boast this combination, so it would really make Pyroak better at its job.

    Battle Armor needs to be changed, it's just not that helpful. I believe we should give it an ability that helps it defensively for its SubSeeding duties. Rock Head helps it offensively, so we need one that helps it defensively. I suggest that we change Battle Armor to Natural Cure, Immunity, or Pressure. Natural Cure will help it immensely, because hitting Pyroak with status, particularly Toxic, is very common and really drains its effectiveness if it doesn't carry Aromatherapy. Pyroak will also be able to SubSeed more effectively if it can remove Toxic if it has been hit by it. Immunity is self-explanatory. Pressure is an interesting ability for SubSeeding Pyroak, and I think it might be the best of the 3 I suggested. With Pyroak being able to stall very effectively due to its very few weaknesses, Pressure will greatly help it in reducing PP from the opponent's Attacks. It also helps reduce Stone Edge's PP much faster, as the opponent can only use it 4 times now. If Pyroak has gotten up a Substitute, it can outstall it for sure.

    Those are just a few of my suggestions, Pyroak really needs to be beefed up.
  14. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    If we want to give Pyroak an ability to help him in his Subseeding duties, as well as make him sticking out of other subseeders, here are some suggestions:

    1) Intimidate: It may seem strange, but Intimidate would help Subseeding Pyroak. Thanks to the attack drop, Intimidate gives Pyroak a much wider range of foes he can switch into and set up a Substitute against. Generally the first few turns after the switch in are very crucial to all Subseeders, and anything which can make Pyroak start its Subseeding cycle easier is much appreciated.

    2) Serene Grace: A more audacious addition to Pyroak, this ability will make our pyromaniac Subseeder basically impervious to all physical attackers bar Infernape. The now improved 60% burn chance of Lava Plume will in fact keep anything from Gyarados to Salamence at bay, and even Special attackers like LAtias will suffer a heavy load of residual damage with Burn, Leech Seed and maybe even Sandstorm chipping away at its health. I realize Serene Grace might be too much, but I would not discard it too easily.

    Now, on to the abilities suggested by Fuzznip, I find that Natural Cure and Immunity, while useful to a Subseeder, make little to distinguish Pyroak from Celebi and Breloom respectively. Pressure, though, is an interesting ability and needs more consideration.

    EDIT: However, while I realize that Pyroak is mainly a Subseeder, I'd like to point out that, while we have some good Subseeders in OU (Celebi, Breloom, perhaps Shaymin), there are few - if any - Sunny Day abusers in the standard environment, and no one of them has Clorophyll. Now, as Kamenrider pointed out, Pyroak has the perfect STABs for a Sunny Day sweepers, almost on par with Kingdra in the rain. We could go over the entire "Subseeder" concept another time, with maybe even better results (I for one think that Pyroak stats do not fit a Subseeder that much), while this may be our lone shot at creating a OU-viable Sunny Day sweeper. I'd like the CAP community to reflect more in depth about it.
  15. Gothic Togekiss

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    Can we at least keep Rock Head, Wood Hammer, and Flare Blitz if Pyroak becomes a bulky mix-sweeper or even a fast mix-sweeper? I would be a shame to see his best things go when Pyroak becomes an entirely different Pokemon in role. I agree with most of the move suggestions made so far, but I question on how powerful physical/specially you want Pyroak to become and how fast you want him?
  16. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    In order to answer GT's concerns, and also because DK's spread does not satisfy me that much, I decided to try my hand. Here is the results:

    HP 120
    ATK 95
    DEF 80
    SATK 95
    SDEF 80
    SPD 65

    Physical Sweepiness: 115 Above Average
    Physical Tankiness: 160 Very Good
    Special Sweepiness: 118 Above Average
    Special Tankiness: 158 Very Good
    Offense/Defense Balance: -6.98 Moderately biased towards Defense
    Physical/Special Balance: -0.14 Slightly biased towards Special
    Overall Rating: 299 Good

    Allow me to explain. The high base HP has been kept unchanged in order to allow Pyroak to use his recoil inducing moves even without Rock Head without suffering too much damage. Attack has been raised in order to better abuse those amazing 120 STABs. It may still seem mediocre, but thanks to the high power of Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer is more than enough to threaten the opposition after a Dragon Dance or a Swords Dance. The defenses has been lowered a bit in order to not make this spread overly good (I can raise them though if there is input for it through the thread), but still are overall slightly better than Swampert's. The Sp. Attack, contrary to DK's decision, has been left untouched. Pyroak needs that much Sp.Atk in order to go mixed, especially if Clorophyll is taken into consideration. 65 Base Speed may seem lackluster, but you still get the jump over many threatening foes such as Tyranitar and Scizor. With some investment, you can also outspeed several walls which have the tendency to not run defense EVs. Most importantly, 65 base Speed, after a Dragon Dance boost, let Pyroak outspeed anything up to base 120 such as Syclant.
  17. tennisace

    tennisace
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    Some quick notes because i cant make a huge response at the moment:

    Dont go overboard. Spore? Really? Sleep powder i can see, but with those defenses spore is way too much. I support adding sleep powder, stun spore (fuck you grounds), dd/sd, dragon moves, and eq to pyroak. I dont like that you can hit the dragons and fire types with rock moves (granted some of them are neutral hits but after a boost they'll still hurt like fuck).

    Second, no offense deck, but your spread looks like a watered down colossoil with worse typing. I like zarator's spread since it can go mixed (fire blast + wood hammer, anyone?) and still tank shit.

    Finally, sunny day is shit in ou for a reason already mention: there arent enough things to abuse it. One pokemon isnt going to change the fact that your sweepers are quite frail and have poor stab, and many of them dont even have a fire move to take advantage of the sun. At least with rain, you get a boost to your speed and boost the power of your stab moves. So i wouldnt recommend giving pyroak an ability that uses the sun, when something like intimidate (look at those cannons) would be much more useful to it.
  18. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Have we considered Sacred Fire on this thing? It's a physical fire move with a sexy 50% burn rate. It would work somewhat like if it got Serene Grace, which Zarator mentioned, but won't be as good due to slightly reduced chance of occurrence and PP issues. However, it does free up an ability slot. Additionally, I agree with tennisace in that Chrolophyll would be a waste of an ability slot. Intimidate is a fine option, but I have another ability worth considering: Sand Veil. Yeah there's little flavour support for Sand Veil, but I think it would massively help it function as a tank if it was immune and benefited from the omnipresent sand. It could genuinely compete with Rock Head, which I don't see any other ability bar Intimidate and Serene Grace. And finally, I like Zarator's spread a lot better just because of its higher offenses, but I think the defenses and speed are too low. Adding +10 to both base defenses and +10 or +15 to speed won't break Pyroak.
  19. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    I want to see "SubSeeding Wall" become Pyroak's Secondary Job behind being a bulky sweeper.

    Swords Dance should be a given, but I don't want to see Pyroak's Special Attack lowered, not at all.
    It already gets the likes of Flare Blitz / Wood Hammer, so running a Physical Set then becomes viable, and makes Pyroak more versatile, running either Special or Physical or Mixed.
    Dragon Dance seems like a fun idea, except that Pyroak is pretty slow (as it is without beefing its stats up), so I prefer Swords Dance to just run in smack and run away again.
    Hell, if you're that concerned about Speed, Agility is always an option.
    But let's not neglect Pyroak's Special Side. Calm Mind will be a great addition - boost his Special Defence somewhat making him a better Mixed Tank, and then plus his stronger offence gets a massive boost as well.

    In fact, its two STAB moves alone depending on which side of the spectrum you're running give pretty decent coverage alone, hitting everything bar Dragon/ or Fire/ for at least neutral damage.

    Unfortunately, nothing hits both those types for Super Effective damage, but I suggest adding something such as Dragon Pulse or Outrage to its movepool. This will let it hit Dragon types pretty hard and also allows it to take care of everything else bar Heatran.
    Earthquake should also be added, should whoever is using Pyroak is more worried about said Heatran or Fire types, although Dragon Pulse would be the better option, as EQ won't hit flying Dragons, Gyara or Flygon. Rock Slide should be thrown in there as well as that'll provide a decent compromise between the two.

    As much as Flash Fire would be amazing in helping Pyroak switch into Heatran and setting up, although that is reliant on the foe actually HAVING a Heatran (which has diminished with the advent of the narwhal), and in the long run, Pressure is probably the more useful Tanking ability.

    Summarizing,
    Movepool additions:
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    These three attacks will give some good, much needed coverage, and aside from Earth Power will definitely help Pyroak's Physical set.
    - Swords Dance
    - Dragon Dance
    - Calm Mind
    Stat boosting will make it a threatening sweeper, especially on its lower Physical side.
    - Dragon Pulse Again, to cover the likes of Mence, and also gives good neutral coverage overall, as Pyroak as STAB Fire to take care of any Steel bar Heatran.

    Ability Changes:
    Battle Armor to be replaced with Pressure

    I'll do a Stat Spread later.
  20. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    @Flareblitz: Sacred Fire is preposterous. Do you realize how much a Dragon Danced Sacred Fire can hurt, factoring in the burn chance? It' a no no from me.

    @Zystral: I agree upon the movepool, although the comment you made on Dragon Dance let me think that maybe you never used DD Tyranitar. However, the ability you suggested are very shitty. I mean, why should I prefer a situational ability like Steadfast and Sniper (which not only don't aid Pyroak at sweeping, but are also worse than Rock Head and even Battle Armor) to a more reliable one like Pressure, Intimidate or Serene Grace?
  21. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    also stat spread. I said I wanted this thing to be a bulky sweeper, first and foremost, so that's what I've aimed for with this spread.
    Water down the defences so that it can still tank to some extent, but make it more sweeper orientated.
    So far I've got;
    105 / 97 / 100 / 105 / 95 / 78 - BST: 580
    PS; 135 - Rank 5: Good
    PT; 179 - Rank 7: Excellent
    SS; 147 - Rank 5: Good
    ST; 172 - Rank 6: Very Good
    O/D Bias; -5.46 - Moderate Bias towards Defence
    P/S Bias; -0.67 - Slight Bias towards Special
    Overall; 353 - Rank 7: Excellent

    You've still got a pretty sizeable HP, meaning that without Rock Head he can still use his STAB Recoil Moves, and with that large Attack boost, those Recoil moves actually become viable and quite powerful, especially with movepool additions of DDance and SD.
    I've boosted Special Attack as well, because I don't think many will agree with me on Calm Mind, so having a naturally larger Special Attack gives reason to run Special Offence or even Mixed completely.

    You've still got some usable bulk on both sides of the spectrum, although defence has been lowered slightly to accommodate for the increase in Attack. He'll still be taking hits pretty well, however.

    That Speed Boost doesn't mean much until you realize that you outpace Metagross and Skarmory, and using a +Nature 252 EV Flamethrower with Leftovers;
    vs Max HP / 0 SpD ~Nature Metagross; 91.21% - 107.69%
    vs Max HP / 0 SpD ~Nature Skarmory; 122.16% - 143.71%
  22. Objection

    Objection

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    You don't flinch if you switch in, therefore you don't get the speed boost.
  23. macle

    macle ribbit
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    just a fyi pyroak already gets outrage according to the cap site (as a tutor move).
  24. familyguyman

    familyguyman

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    I was thinking of Flash Fire and/or Water Absorb.

    Both cover a rather annoying neutrality, Flash Fire has a nice edge offensively; imagine switching in on ScarfTran and setting up a subseed with boosted fire attacks. It would also give him a unique edge over Celebi for tanking. Water Abosrb is obviously more solid defensively, allowing for a switch in on Water Absorb to cover Stealth Rock and tank better against a good offensive type. However I feel Flash Fire is better and I would give up Rock Head for Water Abosrb as it also offers an insignificant advantage over Celebi.
  25. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    Water Absorb would be stupid.
    and I mean stupid.

    I discussed Flash Fire with Zarator over IRC; we both agreed it would be a great ability for switching into Heatran (Pyroak's N.1 counter) and then SubSeed + Boosted Fire attack sweep sure.
    But that relied on your foe running Heatran, and since Colossoil started to exist, Heatran took a hurting, and when there is no Heatran for you to abuse, Pressure becomes a much more attractive ability.
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