Double Dance Rhydon
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RU CCAT (STEP 4 - PLAYTESTING)
- Thread starter zdrup15
- Start date
Gallade
Thanks to badabing's vote, the voting period is now over and the winner with 11 votes is SD + RP Rhydon with Choice Scarf Braviary and Guts Abuse Swellow in second with 10 votes each.
We now have to decide which playstyle will be using. So discuss whether we'll use Rhydon on Stall, Hyper Offense, Spikes stacking Offense, or any of the other playstyles. I'll give one or two days and then we'll vote.
We now have to decide which playstyle will be using. So discuss whether we'll use Rhydon on Stall, Hyper Offense, Spikes stacking Offense, or any of the other playstyles. I'll give one or two days and then we'll vote.
First! Er... I mean...
I'm all for Spikes-stacking offense. Many of the good physical walls in RU who can counter Rhydon (Tangrowth, Cofagrigus, just to name two) are weakened by Spikes, and to an extend, Toxic Spikes, although I'd say those are optional because they're easier to remove (Qwilfish, Drapion).
I'm all for Spikes-stacking offense. Many of the good physical walls in RU who can counter Rhydon (Tangrowth, Cofagrigus, just to name two) are weakened by Spikes, and to an extend, Toxic Spikes, although I'd say those are optional because they're easier to remove (Qwilfish, Drapion).
Well, Rhydon sucks, really bad choose damn. Let's rechoose?
If our set will have SD + RP, we'll only have two Slots to put Damage moves. We'll must choose between Earthquake/Stone Edge/Megahorn or some another move. It means that Rhydon will lack to kill something.
Lets do some analysis. If we sent out Rhydon (Eviolite counting on calcs), and use Swords Dance then the opponent switch in a properly Counter, what happens:
252Atk +2 Rhydon (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Cofagrigus (+Def): 62% - 73% (199 - 235 HP). Rhydon set up Swords Dance, then Cofagrigus will survive a Hit and have an opportunity to burn our dear sweeper with WoW and make it useless.
252Atk +2 Rhydon (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Dusknoir (+Def): 71% - 84% (210 - 247 HP). Dusknoir the samething of the other Ghost.
252Atk +2 Rhydon (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Tangrowth (+Def): 54% - 64% (220 - 261 HP). Tangrowth survive one Hit and can use Giga Drain to OHKO Rhydon easily.
252Atk +2 Rhydon (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Levitate Claydol (+Def): 38% - 45% (125 - 147 HP). Claydol survive two Hits and does 51-61% to Rhydon with Earth Power, that means it will kill our sweeper.
252Atk +2 Rhydon (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Ferroseed (+Def): 31% - 36% (91 - 108 HP). Ferroseed survive, too. But it can't do much back tought, maybe stalling with Leech Seed + Protect or switch to any counter, I dunno.
252Atk +2 Rhydon (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Alomomola (+Def): 55% - 65% (298 - 352 HP).Alomomola will survive a Hit and can Scald Rhydon, giving 61-72% and a chance to burn with Scald or 71%-85% with Surf.
Ok, I found six ways to try Counter it just thinking really fast (maybe I can find even more Counters). We can put Megahorn instead some other move. But with Earthquake + Megahorn flying Pokémons will laugh from Rhydon face, and with Stone Edge + Megahorn I'm very afraid to have to Sweep a team using most part of the time a 80 accuracy move.
Right, and I even didn't mentioned the fact of with 252 Neutral Nature Rhydon and you BIG Speed base (ironic) reach only 179. I'll wont list everything that can revenge Kill Rhydon, just search something with decent Special Attack, an Neutral or SE move and more than 40 speed base. There are MANY Pokémons that could do it.
Then, you can say to me "I can use RP instead SD". Yes, you can, but it will won't pass a few things that can OHKO it back like Sceptile, Dugtrio or any Scarfer with more than 240 Speed Status. Additonally, Rhydon will have a big speed, but it means that it will give 1/2 of the Damage calcs that I did before, giving 2x more chance to be Countered by that Pokémons of the list.
Well, we can still try to do this team, but start to think about how to Counter everything that I mentioned and trust me, its almost all the entire RU tier. Good luck!
If our set will have SD + RP, we'll only have two Slots to put Damage moves. We'll must choose between Earthquake/Stone Edge/Megahorn or some another move. It means that Rhydon will lack to kill something.
Lets do some analysis. If we sent out Rhydon (Eviolite counting on calcs), and use Swords Dance then the opponent switch in a properly Counter, what happens:
252Atk +2 Rhydon (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Cofagrigus (+Def): 62% - 73% (199 - 235 HP). Rhydon set up Swords Dance, then Cofagrigus will survive a Hit and have an opportunity to burn our dear sweeper with WoW and make it useless.
252Atk +2 Rhydon (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Dusknoir (+Def): 71% - 84% (210 - 247 HP). Dusknoir the samething of the other Ghost.
252Atk +2 Rhydon (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Tangrowth (+Def): 54% - 64% (220 - 261 HP). Tangrowth survive one Hit and can use Giga Drain to OHKO Rhydon easily.
252Atk +2 Rhydon (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Levitate Claydol (+Def): 38% - 45% (125 - 147 HP). Claydol survive two Hits and does 51-61% to Rhydon with Earth Power, that means it will kill our sweeper.
252Atk +2 Rhydon (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Ferroseed (+Def): 31% - 36% (91 - 108 HP). Ferroseed survive, too. But it can't do much back tought, maybe stalling with Leech Seed + Protect or switch to any counter, I dunno.
252Atk +2 Rhydon (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Alomomola (+Def): 55% - 65% (298 - 352 HP).Alomomola will survive a Hit and can Scald Rhydon, giving 61-72% and a chance to burn with Scald or 71%-85% with Surf.
Ok, I found six ways to try Counter it just thinking really fast (maybe I can find even more Counters). We can put Megahorn instead some other move. But with Earthquake + Megahorn flying Pokémons will laugh from Rhydon face, and with Stone Edge + Megahorn I'm very afraid to have to Sweep a team using most part of the time a 80 accuracy move.
Right, and I even didn't mentioned the fact of with 252 Neutral Nature Rhydon and you BIG Speed base (ironic) reach only 179. I'll wont list everything that can revenge Kill Rhydon, just search something with decent Special Attack, an Neutral or SE move and more than 40 speed base. There are MANY Pokémons that could do it.
Then, you can say to me "I can use RP instead SD". Yes, you can, but it will won't pass a few things that can OHKO it back like Sceptile, Dugtrio or any Scarfer with more than 240 Speed Status. Additonally, Rhydon will have a big speed, but it means that it will give 1/2 of the Damage calcs that I did before, giving 2x more chance to be Countered by that Pokémons of the list.
Well, we can still try to do this team, but start to think about how to Counter everything that I mentioned and trust me, its almost all the entire RU tier. Good luck!
I guess we really have our work cut out then...
I think it would be a mistake to think about Rhydon as a generic sweeper and actually focus on the two separate, and very distinct, roles it can play with the two boosting moves Swords Dance and Rock Polish.
If Rhydon uses SD then it becomes a powerful wall-breaker, while RP makes it a good late-game cleaner. During a match, Rhydon can fulfill one of these two roles so it would be good to use this versatility when selecting the rest of the members of the team.
Of course being an offensive Pokemon it will really really appreciate entry hazards of all sorts as Final Fantasy's calcs showed. Rhydon will need all the residual damage it can get to be successful so I'm personally leaning towards a hazard stacking offensive team. Something like Scolipede or CB Kabutops to get the hazards down and an offensive spin blocker such as Rotom to maintain momentum. They will appreciate Rhydon's versatility in either wall-breaking if the opponent's team is hard to break down or being a good cleaner should they face an ultra fast offensive team.
Tangrowth, Ferroseed and Gligar seem to be the biggest defensive threats to Rhydon because Tangrowth isn't too bothered by hazards while Ferroseed and Gligar outright wall Rhydon. Scarfers will cause Rhydon problems so Wynaut, Dugtrio or Magneton could be potential partners to trap problem Pokemon. Final Fantasy also showed that Ghosts and Claydol are a massive problem so a powerful Pursuit trapper could be very useful. Something like LO mixed Honchkrow (very nice to use!) or CB Drapion could be options.
Apart from those issues, there's the problem with coverage too. Rhydon would really love to have Megahorn but with two boosting moves it just can't fit it in. Without it we'll need a really good Claydol counter (Haunter anyone? :P). Maybe I've gone too fast and too far but I like double dance Pokemon and it seems a really interesting project to try to make offensive Rhydon work.
I think it would be a mistake to think about Rhydon as a generic sweeper and actually focus on the two separate, and very distinct, roles it can play with the two boosting moves Swords Dance and Rock Polish.
If Rhydon uses SD then it becomes a powerful wall-breaker, while RP makes it a good late-game cleaner. During a match, Rhydon can fulfill one of these two roles so it would be good to use this versatility when selecting the rest of the members of the team.
Of course being an offensive Pokemon it will really really appreciate entry hazards of all sorts as Final Fantasy's calcs showed. Rhydon will need all the residual damage it can get to be successful so I'm personally leaning towards a hazard stacking offensive team. Something like Scolipede or CB Kabutops to get the hazards down and an offensive spin blocker such as Rotom to maintain momentum. They will appreciate Rhydon's versatility in either wall-breaking if the opponent's team is hard to break down or being a good cleaner should they face an ultra fast offensive team.
Tangrowth, Ferroseed and Gligar seem to be the biggest defensive threats to Rhydon because Tangrowth isn't too bothered by hazards while Ferroseed and Gligar outright wall Rhydon. Scarfers will cause Rhydon problems so Wynaut, Dugtrio or Magneton could be potential partners to trap problem Pokemon. Final Fantasy also showed that Ghosts and Claydol are a massive problem so a powerful Pursuit trapper could be very useful. Something like LO mixed Honchkrow (very nice to use!) or CB Drapion could be options.
Apart from those issues, there's the problem with coverage too. Rhydon would really love to have Megahorn but with two boosting moves it just can't fit it in. Without it we'll need a really good Claydol counter (Haunter anyone? :P). Maybe I've gone too fast and too far but I like double dance Pokemon and it seems a really interesting project to try to make offensive Rhydon work.
I think we should go for Spikes Stacking Offense. I'm too lazy to do calcs, so I'll just steal some:
Good luck stopping Rhydon with Stealth Rock and Spikes on field. Another thing I like about it is that Rhydon has decent synergy with most Spikes users (Qwilfish, Scolipede, Ferroseed), giving us lots of options. I'd prefer this if Porygon-Z won, though. ;_;
I'd rather go for Spikes-Stacking Offense. I agree that there are many counters to the Rhydon set we are using, I'd much rather have Entei, Swellow, or Braviary instead :(. But still, some of those counters would be OHKOed at +2 with Spikes and SR, but yet Toxic Spikes can deal even more out.
Probably not much point in me stating this, but Spikes-Stacking Offense is the way to go. Even at +2, Rhydon is still lacking the power to decimate the bulkiest of walls, as Pearl's calcs show. The best choices are probably Qwilfish and Omastar. Accelgor could work too, but in my experience he doesn't always get 3 layers up. Though it's not offensive, using Ferroseed seems plausible so that Sharpedo doesn't end a sweep (though idk if standard Sharpedo still run HP Fire)
The problem with "First past the post" voting is that is leaves more people disappointed than pleased.
in other news:
Spike stacking offense seems to be the general consensus for supporting a Rhydon and I must say that I do agree with the necessity of spikes (toxic or otherwise) to provide that little extra Rhydon needs to net a few KOs here and there.
Ferroseed would be an acceptable partner to Rhydon but they both share a fighting weakness so my initial thought would be towards either Qwilfish or Scolipede as both have access to both sets of spikes and as strange as it seems I see very few pokemon running ground-type attacks offensively in this tier. Roselia would have the best type synergy with Rhydon and also has access to both sets of spikes.
The difference between these choices seemingly falls to whether we consider our spiker "done" once spikes are in play. If we do the Scolipede seems the best option because of its speed. Roselia has fairly adequate special bulk even without eviolite but I am loath to make a wall so entirely dependent on its item. In my opinion Qwilfish seems to be the better all around option with intimidate and better general survivability.
Curiosly Omastar gets access to both spikes as well but in RU spiking seems to be a waste of his potential. I can see the validity in partnering Omastar with Roselia but that is a discussion for later. The last pokemon with access to both is Garbodor; who sucks.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
Spike stacking offense seems to be a pretty good start. Rhydon has excellent synergie with Eviolite Roselia it resists Water, Grass and Fighting and is generally a good Special tank, while Rhydon can take Fire and Flying type attacks as well as having decent physical bulk. Roselias decent base 100 SpA should be just enough to threaten usual Rhydon switch ins like Tangrowth and Claydol and doesn't cares if it gets burned from one of the Ghosts or a Scald thanks to Natural Cure. This would be a set i would support:
Roselia@Eviolite
Natural Cure
252 HP /252 SDef /4 SpA
-Spikes
-Giga Drain/Leafstorm
-Sludge Bomb
-Rest
However Cladol still shits on you when it Spins your hazards away while being almost completly immune to them. So a spin blocker is very important and a ghost type would generally help with things like Choice Scarf Medicham. A good option would be Rotom-N or Haunter as they seem to be the best offensive Ghosts in RU (Trick Room Cofagrigus could work too).
Roselia@Eviolite
Natural Cure
252 HP /252 SDef /4 SpA
-Spikes
-Giga Drain/Leafstorm
-Sludge Bomb
-Rest
However Cladol still shits on you when it Spins your hazards away while being almost completly immune to them. So a spin blocker is very important and a ghost type would generally help with things like Choice Scarf Medicham. A good option would be Rotom-N or Haunter as they seem to be the best offensive Ghosts in RU (Trick Room Cofagrigus could work too).
Ok, then our bigger problem is still Claydol. We'll already need a Ghost to block Spin, Spiker/SRer and some Pokémon to down Claydol.
Haunter is pretty terrible. How about Rotom-N?
I feel that Cofagrigus and Misdreavus also deserve to be on the table.
Realistically though, I think spin-blocker can wait until we have the core surrounding Rhydon established so that the spin-blocker can fill whatever niche we need it to fill.
I feel that Cofagrigus and Misdreavus also deserve to be on the table.
Realistically though, I think spin-blocker can wait until we have the core surrounding Rhydon established so that the spin-blocker can fill whatever niche we need it to fill.
Personally I think that both Misdreavus and Rotom-N shopuld be given equal consideration. Rotom-N is far more advanced offensively but Misdreavus just won't die. Having played aaginst a few times and trying to spin against it I can confirm that it takes several turns and plenty of long-term planning to bring it down.
Spikes stacking offense seems like the best option if we absolutely HAVE to choose Rhydon. From other's calcs (too lazy to do my own :D) it looks like this thing has some potential to be devastating. Plus for him to be the monster he could be, he is going to need those hazards to help ensure the 2hko's and ohko's he needs.
A couple simple things to consider:
Rhydon should run a Jolly LO set, because with jolly it can outspeed adamant scarfed Medicham and anything slower, and he would need the boost in attack power to make up for the speed increase rather than being able to rely on Eviolite.
Roselia is the best spiker to pair with Rhydon. Roselia also pairs well with Wartortle, who can provide foresight+spin support.
Priority or fast scarfers are needed to deal with various other sweepers and scarfers. I think SubRoostKrow is a good choice to threaten faster sweepers with Sucker Punch and beat problematic bulky opponents such as Tangrowth, Claydol, and Taunt+Bulk Up Gallade, who it can smash through at even +1 Def. With Moxie, such a set only gets more and more threatening, and the few things that do wall it will be easily handled by the rest of the team.
Rhydon will be a decent stallbreaker on its own with SD and decent speed for RU, but a pokemon that manhandles stall is never a bad idea. I think Sub+3 Attacks Rampardos is a good choice, as it has similar walls/checks that Rhydon does but has the extra coverage needed from Fire Punch (reliable vs. Tangrowth and Ferroseed) and Superpower to cover niche threats. Mold Breaker lets it also get the advantage in a lead matchup such as Crustle and Steelix, who it can 1hko with Stone Edge and 2hko with Superpower or Earthquake respectively, while also potentially having Crunch to hit Claydol and Zen Headbutt to 1hko the Hitmons.
Last but not least, we need a scarfed revenger. Entei is one of the best in the tier, but I think Scarf Rotom-N is better for this team, since it provides a powerful Volt Switch and can double as an offensive spinblocker while providing the potential to trick its Scarf away. Galvantula is a strong choice as well, helping vs. bulky waters that might otherwise wall Rhydon. Even though spikes-stacking offense is the best choice by far, it might not be necessary to have a spinblocker, since their spinners can only come in on hazards+powerful attacks so many times. This team's objective should be keeping the pressure on the opponent to make the times the opponent can spin limited.
Let's go ahead and look at those calcs again and see how Jolly LO shifts the calcs in our favor:
Cofagrigus: 718 Atk vs 427 Def & 320 HP (100 Base Power): 235 - 277 (73.44% - 86.56%)
Tangrowth: 718 Atk vs 383 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 262 - 309 (64.85% - 76.49%)
Dusknoir: 718 Atk vs 405 Def & 294 HP (100 Base Power): 247 - 292 (84.01% - 99.32%)
Claydol: ya, claydol can't be covered with quakeedge. needs team support. still though, +2 stone edge is a slim possibility for a 2hko with SR, so if you're desperate, you aren't completely walled by it.
Alomomola: 718 Atk vs 284 Def & 534 HP (100 Base Power): 354 - 417 (66.29% - 78.09%)
Ferroseed: 718 Atk vs 463 Def & 292 HP (100 Base Power): 217 - 256 (74.32% - 87.67%)
Rhydon should run a Jolly LO set, because with jolly it can outspeed adamant scarfed Medicham and anything slower, and he would need the boost in attack power to make up for the speed increase rather than being able to rely on Eviolite.
Roselia is the best spiker to pair with Rhydon. Roselia also pairs well with Wartortle, who can provide foresight+spin support.
Priority or fast scarfers are needed to deal with various other sweepers and scarfers. I think SubRoostKrow is a good choice to threaten faster sweepers with Sucker Punch and beat problematic bulky opponents such as Tangrowth, Claydol, and Taunt+Bulk Up Gallade, who it can smash through at even +1 Def. With Moxie, such a set only gets more and more threatening, and the few things that do wall it will be easily handled by the rest of the team.
Rhydon will be a decent stallbreaker on its own with SD and decent speed for RU, but a pokemon that manhandles stall is never a bad idea. I think Sub+3 Attacks Rampardos is a good choice, as it has similar walls/checks that Rhydon does but has the extra coverage needed from Fire Punch (reliable vs. Tangrowth and Ferroseed) and Superpower to cover niche threats. Mold Breaker lets it also get the advantage in a lead matchup such as Crustle and Steelix, who it can 1hko with Stone Edge and 2hko with Superpower or Earthquake respectively, while also potentially having Crunch to hit Claydol and Zen Headbutt to 1hko the Hitmons.
Last but not least, we need a scarfed revenger. Entei is one of the best in the tier, but I think Scarf Rotom-N is better for this team, since it provides a powerful Volt Switch and can double as an offensive spinblocker while providing the potential to trick its Scarf away. Galvantula is a strong choice as well, helping vs. bulky waters that might otherwise wall Rhydon. Even though spikes-stacking offense is the best choice by far, it might not be necessary to have a spinblocker, since their spinners can only come in on hazards+powerful attacks so many times. This team's objective should be keeping the pressure on the opponent to make the times the opponent can spin limited.
Let's go ahead and look at those calcs again and see how Jolly LO shifts the calcs in our favor:
Cofagrigus: 718 Atk vs 427 Def & 320 HP (100 Base Power): 235 - 277 (73.44% - 86.56%)
Tangrowth: 718 Atk vs 383 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 262 - 309 (64.85% - 76.49%)
Dusknoir: 718 Atk vs 405 Def & 294 HP (100 Base Power): 247 - 292 (84.01% - 99.32%)
Claydol: ya, claydol can't be covered with quakeedge. needs team support. still though, +2 stone edge is a slim possibility for a 2hko with SR, so if you're desperate, you aren't completely walled by it.
Alomomola: 718 Atk vs 284 Def & 534 HP (100 Base Power): 354 - 417 (66.29% - 78.09%)
Ferroseed: 718 Atk vs 463 Def & 292 HP (100 Base Power): 217 - 256 (74.32% - 87.67%)
Def Spike Stalking offense. While being my favourite playstyle, it also lets Rhydon achive those KO's.