Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

[Lockeness]

Salamence is no where even near uber. It is weak to stealth rock, loses health to sandstream, life orb damage and has no resistance to bullet punch. Also Salamence has many counters that are faster than it (Latias, Gengar, Scarftran). I just do not see any way how this thing can be close to ubers.

 

[Alex_Dino]

Good. In my opinion every Smogoner should at least read that forum daily. If they did, then it would be plausible to have the masses vote on possible metagame-changing situations, as the community would be well-informed on both sides and be able to make intelligent decisions based on facts and statistics. Not saying that all the intelligent and well-informed people have badges, and if you don't have one, you aren't, as there are clearly people who are intelligent within Smogon without badges. It's just that the bigger a community is, the less well-informed it becomes (look at America. But I digress...)

But yeah, you should make that a habit.

 

[Ulevo]

Salamence is dominating the statistics indirectly. Would we see Scizor at #1 if Salamence ceased to exist? Who knows? But one thing is certain, Scizor is used a lot of a lot more because it can revenge kill Salamence. Sure, it helps against Latias as well, but Tyranitar, Metagross, and Jirachi are all more effective checks, and can all support the team with Stealth Rock.

This is mere theorycraft, and I have little interest in debating over the current what if's if there is no apparent reason to. Salamence is a prominent threat, but is not dominating the meta. How do you determine that? You look at the statistics.

And if by "dominating the statistics indirectly" you are referring to Salamence's influence on the meta, I do not recall that being a cause for concern by itself, as all top threats influence the meta.

I'm going to stop comparing the two, and I suggest you do the same.

No, I really don't see the need to stop making the comparison where it remains valid for the convenience of your points.

Usage(statistics) should be thrown out the window when considering a suspect. I will compare the number of steels to dragons in OU.

Dragons
2 | Salamence | 152911 | 20.95
3 | Latias | 148642 | 20.36
24 | Flygon | 55055 | 7.54
25 | Dragonite | 54725 | 7.50
29 | Kingdra | 49397 | 6.77

Steels
1 | Scizor | 224888 | 30.81
5 | Heatran | 141192 | 19.34
7 | Metagross | 122140 | 16.73
8 | Jirachi | 118266 | 16.20
9 | Lucario | 112819 | 15.46
20 | Magnezone | 61756 | 8.46
21 | Skarmory | 60542 | 8.29
28 | Forretress | 50051 | 6.86
31 | Empoleon | 44923 | 6.15
32 | Bronzong | 44676 | 6.12

So you suggest we throw out the statistics, and yet you post more?

There are two steels for every dragon in OU. What could possibly warrant this usage of steels in the current metagame?

To quote cantab, "The fact that the type has 11 resistances and an immunity? And that many steels lose one or even two of their three weaknesses by ability, secondary typing, or both."

Well, let's take a look at Latias, the next highest on the usage list. Scizor, Metagross, Jirachi, even Magnezone, Skarmory, Forretress, Empoleon, and Bronzong, can be used as sufficient checks. Then there are pokemon like Blissey and Tyranitar, who can check her. What would warrant the use of all these different checks JUST for Latias? She isn't as diverse as Salamence, so I think this is fairly obvious.

Scizor and Forretress are destroyed by HP Fire, Magnezone and Forretress can't do anything excluding Explosion, Surf ruins Skarmory, and Trick can also pose problems for all of the previously mentioned "checks".

You can't compare advantages of Latias or another Dragon type to prove why Salamence is broken. That's ridiculous. That's like me mentioning why Ho-Oh should be OU because of the disadvantages Charizard and Moltres have.

The saturation of the OU metagame of steels and dragons IS attributed to Salamence.

It's attributed to the fact that Dragon is the best offensive type in the game, Steel is the best defensive type in the game, an Steel happens to be the only resist for Dragon, on top of a plethora of other factors.

I really don't know how to explain how Salamence is broken without comparing him to other dragons, as clearly dragon is the most dominant type.

That's because you can't, as I've clearly outlined above.

 

[User 12783]

Honestly, I don't understand this "ban all" mentality. I am pretty sure most of the time, the voters are more swayed with the "respected battlers" choices, rather than their own. It is like US Presidential Election. Sure, we can test Salamence, but can we at least let the metagame play out for a while? These decisions are made at such a fast pace, and sometimes under false pretenses.

I agree with the fact that Salamence should be tested, but the metagame needs to play out a little. We need to see where the metagame is a month or two from now. I'm afraid by the end of Suspect Test almost every Pokemon is going to have gone through testing. That would be an utter waste of time.

Let's stick with the current clauses to be tested first, they've been waiting a long time, and they have been in effect pre-DP as I understand it as well. Salamence suffers from moveslot syndrome, and unlike Garchomp where hax was also a predominant factor, Salamence cannot automatically sky-rocket its Attack or Speed. Choice Scarfers can easily revenge it, and it does have set counters. Where as one specific Garchomp set had NO counters at all.

 

[Alex_Dino]

I agree with Ulevo. You can't compare how good a Pokémon is by comparing it to another Pokémon. It's like stating that Butterfree should be declared OU because it's better than Caterpie. And then you go into the whole definition of what "better" is.

Dragon is the most popular type simply because, as Ulevo mentioned above, it's the best offensive type in the game. You could give any Pokémon with a decent attack Outrage and their usage will immediately shoot up. Same goes with Draco Meteor and all of the other Dragon-type attacks. Your [blasphemy1] logic is basically saying to ban all Dragon types and/or Dragon-type moves. This is not the best course of action when trying to balance the metagame, because then the Steel-types would dominate because everything would resist it save Fire and Fighting. Inevitably you would end up using Naxte's logic, which is even worse.

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

I'd like to bring up something that should be a crucial point in this argument: the threat list. Most people who post RMTs usually have a threat list that they use to illustrate how they deal with Pokemon. A good threat list will include every possible situation one might encounter (not just the most common). This includes responses to Electivire, Heracross, and rarer forms of common Pokemon- Specsmence, Scarftar, Agililuke, etc. If a threat list can show that it can answer all threats, then the team attached to the threat list will be able to as well.

What I'm trying to get at is that a good team will be able to have an answer to get by any form of Salamence, so if you have a good, solid, team, Salamence should not be a problem.

 

[Naxte]

You do realize that using this kind of logic would eventually ban everything to Ubers. It would be achieved easily:

1. <Pokémon #1> has been declared broken. It is banned to Ubers.
2. <Pokémon #2> has risen in popularity due to <Pokémon #1>'s absence.
3. People start to question whether <Pokémon #2> is broken due to <Pokémon #1>'s absence.
4. A Suspect Test is initiated to test whether <Pokémon #2> is broken in the current metagame.
5. Inevitably return to step 1.

It is impossible for the Pokémon series to have a completely balanced metagame regardless of who is in what tier. However the above logic is not the way to deal with this issue.

Obviously, that's not realistic and is just attempting to strawman my point. If something is broken under one of the three characteristics, it should be banned, otherwise it should be left alone. A Pokemon should not simply be left if it's broken just because it helps check other broken Pokemon.

If you feel that a Pokemon should be left, regardless of it's broken or not, just to keep a few other Pokemon in check, then why do we even have an Ubers tier at all? Apparently, we don't care if things are broken or not, just so long as they can be beat. So then, should we bring down Pokemon like Rayquaza? It can help keep Pokemon like Mence and Latias and such in check and can be revenge killed by Ice Shard and what have you. But who even cares if it itself is broken, right? It keeps other Pokemon in check and helps stop us from banning everything that's not Caterpie, and that's enough.

Obviously though, that's not a good mindset to go with. If Pokemon are broken, they should be banned, regardless of the effect that has on other Pokemon. A stable metagame will be reached, and will definitely be reached before getting down to just Caterpie andWeedle or whatever.

And besides, we don't even know what will happen with Mence gone. It's quite possible that there won't be any new suspects at all, and the metagame will be healthier for it. That's why we're just talking about a test right now. We aren't going to just jump right into banning it. That of course wouldn't be a wise move. Thus, the suspect test process. Until we do a test, we don't know anything either way about the resulting metagame. All we have is theorymon, and that doesn't get anyone anywhere.

A test will give us those answers though, and thus why I'm in favor of giving it a shot. Salamance certainly is powerful enough to be considered a suspect (it's 135/110 offenses can definitely be said to be on par, if not better than Latios's 90/130 ones), and has a moveset (DD/Outrage/EQ/Fire Blast) that can make it very hard for anything to switch in and be able do deal with it without having been the one who predicted better. That may not mean that it's actually Uber, but it's certainly enough to make it worth a test to determine whether it's Uber or not.

 

[drcossack]

I don't see what the huge problem is with Salamence. From experience, I've never had problems with Salamence against my team. There's a plethora of options that can be used against Mence. I'm talking about bulky waters, steels, Scarfers, Latias, Pursuit, Stealth Rock, Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, pure physical walls (aka Hippowdon and Zong)... etc. If you don't have at least one of these on your team, then there's something wrong.

I also disagree with Naxte's logic, because with it, we'll have a scenario described perfectly by Poke Community's Dark Azelf:

CB Scizor (or the less common LO Scizor) can't switch in and OHKO Mence with Bullet Punch. With SR damage, if Mence switches in on the Scizor, it will die to Scizor's Bullet Punch.

With the MixMence set, there's not a lot that can switch in, much like Garchomp used to be. Weavile and Latias have to revenge kill - Latias needs max Speed and Scarf to have a chance against a DD Set. Hippowdon will fall to a combo of Draco+Outrage (as does nearly everything else.) For Steels, Salamence gets EQ and Fire Blast (though Heatran is the only one who isn't bothered by the latter.)

 

[Baldafor]

A minor nitpick, but you mentioned Magnezone at least 5 different times in the various sets listed, and it's not listed as a "Typical Teammate". Shouldn't that be added?

EDIT: I didn't see any mention of status used against Salamence. A lot of pokemon can take a boosted hit and use Thunder Wave to neuter Salamence. Even Toxic or Burn would also be devastating, but paralysis means Salamence is dead weight.

 

[cantab]

Assuming this would happen, I myself predict that there would be a rise in usage of Scizor in Ubers simply due to the fact that Salamence would be promoted to Ubers. (Scizor, coincidentally, is already #8 in Ubers, nine places higher than Garchomp, but again, I digress.)

Salamence is almost entirely outclassed by Rayquaza in Ubers. I don't know much about the Uber metagame, but I think the main reason for using Mence there is to use it as well as Ray.
And why would Salamence becoming Uber affect its usage there, when it, like all OU Pokemon, is already allowed in Ubers? (Currently running 26th.)

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

CB Scizor (or the less common LO Scizor) can't switch in and OHKO Mence with Bullet Punch. With SR damage, if Mence switches in on the Scizor, it will die to Scizor's Bullet Punch.

With the MixMence set, there's not a lot that can switch in, much like Garchomp used to be. Weavile and Latias have to revenge kill - Latias needs max Speed and Scarf to have a chance against a DD Set. Hippowdon will fall to a combo of Draco+Outrage (as does nearly everything else.) For Steels, Salamence gets EQ and Fire Blast (though Heatran is the only one who isn't bothered by the latter.)

Well, since Salamence is usually paired with T-Tar (according to this thread which I think pairing T-Tar with Mence is dumb lol), if Salamence has take one turn of LO and SR and SS damage Scizor does OHKO it and can come in on a predicted Outrage :/

Mixmence is worn down through LO recoil/prediction and can be picked off in a similar matter, or Steels can come in on an Outrage and either revenge kill or use it as set up fodder (aka Forry and Skarm put up Spikes, and Agiligross sets up). Fire Blast is predicted, absorbed by Scarftran, then BOOM or HP Ice. Latias comes in on Fire Blast, Draco Meteor/ Dragon Pulse says hi. Want me to keep going?

 

[Naxte]

I'd like to bring up something that should be a crucial point in this argument: the threat list. Most people who post RMTs usually have a threat list that they use to illustrate how they deal with Pokemon. A good threat list will include every possible situation one might encounter (not just the most common). This includes responses to Electivire, Heracross, and rarer forms of common Pokemon- Specsmence, Scarftar, Agililuke, etc. If a threat list can show that it can answer all threats, then the team attached to the threat list will be able to as well.

What I'm trying to get at is that a good team will be able to have an answer to get by any form of Salamence, so if you have a good, solid, team, Salamence should not be a problem.

Threat list means nothing if it contains no actual good way to address the threat (due to none existing), and that just may be the situation with Mence. Let's take the DD set of DD/Outrage/EQ/FB. There really are extremely few ways of dealing with that thing without having to revenge kill it or getting lucky and having your opponent be predictable. In other words, yeah, if they do the predictable DD, then you might be able to bring in Scizor and handle it. But Scizor's hardly a reliable answer--if that Mence had used FB instead, it would have just been a fried bug. You could predict the FB and switch in Heatran instead, but then what if Mence used EQ? That's not very reliable either. Those ways of handling Mence just rely on hoping that either your opponent is someone who makes a predictable, foolish move, or otherwise that you're simply the person who's better at predicting. If you have to rely on such methods as pure prediction to beat Mence, and there's nothing solid, even knowing the exact set that it's running, that you can switch in to beat it without relying on prediction and just hoping you made the better move, that's a very good sign that it possesses the traits of a Suspect and at least deserves to be tested as a result.

EDIT: I didn't see any mention of status used against Salamence. A lot of pokemon can take a boosted hit and use Thunder Wave to neuter Salamence. Even Toxic or Burn would also be devastating, but paralysis means Salamence is dead weight.

Thing is though, you've basically just sacrificed a Pokemon to paralyze Mence, and thus Mence has done it's job all the same. Mence may be crippled, but your Paralyzer is also dead or close to being so (and thus susceptible, if it isn't dead, to this same BP Scizor and such that are supposed to be able to handle Mence and being dead-weight all the same).

 

[Acritter]

Why then are some of Salamence's distinguishing characteristics that make it unique not mentioned in the original theories? To say "Salamence has no counters therefore it's Uber" is to say "Every pokemon with no counters is Uber". To say "Salamence is easy to revenge kill therefore it's not Uber" is to say "Every pokemon that's easy to revenge kill is not Uber".

In case it still isn't clear what my point is:

• Salamence's SR weakness alone does not make it not Uber.
• Salamence's lack of counters alone does not make it Uber - I brought up the Gengar example to prove this.
• Salamence's versatility alone does not make it Uber.
• Salamence's over base 100 attack and special attack alone do not make it Uber.
• The fact that Salamence can easily be revenge killed alone would not make it not Uber even if revenge killing was a valid argument in the first place.
• If Salamence is definitely Uber or definitely not Uber, it is NOT due to just one of Salamence's traits but a UNIQUE COMBINATION of traits.

Savvy?

You know what, let's put Salamence through a suspect test after all, because I put it to you that not one of the theories posted here for either side can be taken as correct.

Salamence's qualities are that it can run a variety of sets and that mispredicting a set can result it sweeping, and that it has high enough stats to do significant damage even when it is predicted (1-2 Pokemon).

And thank you for putting your money where your mouth is.

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

Threat list means nothing if it contains no actual good way to address the threat (due to none existing)then its not a good team and should be adjusted accordingly? And also I posted a wide list of options to beat Mence if you want to actually read the thread, and that just may be the situation with Mence. Let's take the DD set of DD/Outrage/EQ/FB. There really are extremely few ways of dealing with that thing without having to revenge kill it or getting lucky and having your opponent be predictable. In other words, yeah, if they do the predictable DD, then you might be able to bring in Scizor and handle it. But Scizor's hardly a reliable answer--if that Mence had used FB instead, it would have just been a fried bug. You could predict the FB and switch in Heatran instead, but then what if Mence used EQ? That's not very reliable either. Those ways of handling Mence just rely on hoping that either your opponent is someone who makes a predictable, foolish move, or otherwise that you're simply the person who's better at predicting. If you have to rely on such methods as pure prediction to beat Mence, and there's nothing solid, even knowing the exact set that it's running, that you can switch in to beat it without relying on prediction and just hoping you made the better move, that's a very good sign that it possesses the traits of a Suspect and at least deserves to be tested as a result.

So if there's no pure counter to a Pokemon its should be tested? That's pretty illogical, because you're also saying that any other Pokemon with no pure counters should be tested, like:

Scizor- U-Turns all the time, no counter because of that, SUSPECT
Lucario- Too versatile, doesn't use SD all the time, SUSPECT
Infernape- could be SD, could be Mixed, could be CB, can do a hell of a lot of things, SUSPECT

See where I'm getting?

Furthermore, let's take a look at what made Garchomp a suspect and eventually Uber- there had to be one of very few certain Pokemon on a team just to be sure that Garchomp was taken out. It couldn't be any other Pokemon. I don't see that issue for Mence, (again see plethora of options above) since it has several answers that can take it down.

 

[JarardoMartino]

Salamence seems to be a real problem because it seems to be broken in OU but it also seems to be outclassed by pokemon in the uber tier. I now see the reason why HE SHOULD BE TESTED because it's the only way we can determine for sure. The poll is kind of a good way to see how the public views it, however, I think the higher-up professionals should see for sure if Sally truely is broken because if it is even considered for testing, shouldn't you think something might be up with him?

In regards to my first post, i suppose it would be trouble some to sacrifice a pokemon everytime you face salamence. I guess the metagame won't change too much but we won't know until it happens. I guess I just feared some sort of "Nostra-Salamence Effect" kind of thing :P.

Gengar (i don't know he was brought into the thread), and others with no actual "counters" are often frail and lack a recovery move. Sally has some considerable bulk as shown by it's sets and has a recovery move (roost) which can also turn its 4x weakness to ice into just 2x. It is clear he has an unfair advantage in OU but can't really be a contender in Ubers. IMO, he rests on a borderline tier between OU and Uber. We just have to chose which way we should push Ol' Sally.

 

[Alex_Dino]

I do understand your logic, Nexte. And yes, I agree with you, and would also like to add that the fact that this topic alone is getting so much attention screams for Salamence to be tested. However I do not agree with your logic in concerns to banning, as it would be correct only if the metagame never changed after the banning of said Pokémon.

If something is broken under one of the three characteristics, it should be banned, otherwise it should be left alone.

We all know that after Garchomp was banned, the metagame shifted. It took a few months for it to cool down again. But when it did cool down, it was a different metagame. This means one thing: Everytime the metagame changes, the Pokémon which could be considered "broken" also get changed. For example:

Before the banning of <Pokémon #1>, the suspect ladder was like so:

Ubers:
None

Suspect:
<Pokémon #1>
<Pokémon #2>
<Pokémon #3>
<Pokémon #4>

However with the banning of <Pokémon #1> the ladder now looks like this:

Ubers:
<Pokémon #1>

Suspect:
<Pokémon #2>
<Pokémon #3>
<Pokémon #4>

Now, with the exclusion of <Pokémon #1>, other Pokémon will try to fill in the gap, some succeeding, some failing. However another Pokémon WILL eventually fill <Pokémon #1>'s gap. Then, inevitably people will start calling the replacement Pokémon (hereon referenced as <Replacement Pokémon #1>) "broken". After much debate over the "broken"-ness of <Replacement Pokémon #1>, the higher-ups will see the attention <Replacement Pokémon #1> will be getting, and subsequently put <Replacement Pokémon #1> on the Suspect Ladder.

So the ladder as follows:

Ubers:
<Pokémon #1>

Suspect:
<Pokémon #2>
<Pokémon #3>
<Pokémon #4>
<Replacement Pokémon #1>

The trend will continue, because, as more Pokémon get banned, more Pokémon will take their place, go to the top of the ladder, and be subsequently banned to Ubers.

This type of logic, coincidentally, would result in a pseudo-bubble-sort algorithm, as it would immediately ban the most "broken" Pokémon, then go down the list and ban the next most "broken" Pokémon, due to the absence of the first not being able to counter it, and proceed until all Pokémon were banned.

Again, to reiterate. It is impossible to have a stable metagame. You just have to face the fact that some Pokémon are better than others, and move on. Nintendo didn't make Pokémon with a balanced metagame in mind, they made Pokémon with making money in mind. Which is why, the more generations that have come out, the less stable the metagame is.

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

Gengar (i don't know he was brought into the thread), and others with no actual "counters" are often frail and lack a recovery move. Sally has some considerable bulk as shown by it's sets and has a recovery move (roost) which can also turn its 4x weakness to ice into just 2x. It is clear he has an unfair advantage in OU but can't really be a contender in Ubers. IMO, he rests on a borderline tier between OU and Uber. We just have to chose which way we should push Ol' Sally.

Yea the only real reason Salamence really has any bulk is because it has something called Intimidate? Which means "Hi my name is Ice Beam/HP Ice/ Draco Meteor/ Dragon Pulse/ switch in after you then use Stone Edge or Ice Punch or priority and I kill Salamence" :/

 

[blasphemy1]

Ulevo: Was just trying to be courteous because Haunter previously stated that arguing about other pokemon(like Magnezone and Pursuiters) will result in infractions and deletion of posts. I've just had an epiphany: I don't care about shoddy battle. So you can officially count me out of this argument.

 

[JarardoMartino]

Yea the only real reason Salamence really has any bulk is because it has something called Intimidate? Which means "Hi my name is Ice Beam/HP Ice/ Draco Meteor/ Dragon Pulse/ switch in after you then use Stone Edge or Ice Punch or priority and I kill Salamence" :/

If it were that simple, would this thread be taking place? I'm just saying, it wouldn't hurt to try testing him. I'm trying to give Sally the benefit of the doubt in that this might not be nessecary but we need to know for sure. With either result, there are going to be the people whining that they didn't get there way but thats life (or at least congress). If it is meant to be it is meant to be. Besides, you can also vote pokemon down tiers so if it looks like it was a mistake if Salamence was sent to Uber, than we can test him like Manaphy. I'm trying to see this from the third view. And besides, if Sally is innocent, it has nothing to fear...

 

[capefeather]

I'm beginning to sense a sort of smugness and elitism that existed during Round 2 in terms of Garchomp. Yes, the possibility always exists that banning a Pokémon will lower the standards of the Uber/BL label, eventually resulting in a slippery slope where many Pokémon become legitimately suspect-worthy by precedent. However, to claim that opponents to your opinion desire such a thing is a rather stupid accusation. I think that we should all be clear about a couple of things:

1. We're talking about a test of Salamence (whatever that entails). No one's calling for a ban... yet.

2. This is not like banning Stealth Rock or Blissey, or bringing Ho-oh to OU. The "Salamence might be Uber" sentiment reaches well beyond the noob masses and has gained significant ground in PR.

3. As mentioned before, Salamence's possible suspect status is due to a combination of factors, and not just one factor. Please don't just attack one factor and call the other guy a noob. (Yes, I know no one is explicitly doing so, but there's a hell of a lot of implication going on.)

It is impossible to have a stable metagame.

... Is it? This is really just a guess, especially considering that you've apparently misunderstood that there's a difference between a top-tier Pokémon and a Pokémon that's so top-tier that it's broken. I think that we could be a little bit more optimistic here, especially since over a year has passed since we banned a Pokémon. There's also UU, which I'd say showed signs of being nearly "stable" before the BL dropdown (though I maintain that the dropdown was necessary).

also 100th post lol

 

[Alex_Dino]

Salamence is almost entirely outclassed by Rayquaza in Ubers. I don't know much about the Uber metagame, but I think the main reason for using Mence there is to use it as well as Ray.
And why would Salamence becoming Uber affect its usage there, when it, like all OU Pokemon, is already allowed in Ubers? (Currently running 26th.)

Thank you for pointing this out, cantab, as this is exactly what I'm getting at. In Ubers Rayquaza easily outclasses Salamence. That is why Rayquaza is in Ubers and Salamence is in OU, and also why Salamence's usage is not as much as Rayquaza's. In essence, Salamence filled the gap Rayquaza left behind. If you ban Salamence, what's next? Flygon? Dragonite? Kingdra? These are all examples, and in no way do I want them tested, but that's the point I'm getting at. You ban one, another will take it's place. This is the way things have always been. Need a Rain Dancer, yet have no access to Kyogre? Use Azelf, Crobat, Zapdos, etc. Need someone for Sunny Day, yet no access to Groudon? Again, you can use Crobat, Azelf, Bronzong, etc. In conclusion, banning Pokémon will not make the metagame stable, nor will it ever, because it was never stable to begin with.

And also, to reply to your post, cantab, I do believe it would add a little bit of usage to Salamence, simply because that would be the only tier it would be able to be used in. Not so much that it would one month #26 and the next #10, but a little bit, like, maybe #24 or something a little higher.

However, I'm getting off topic.

I'd like to state right now that it looks like the majority of the people posting on this topic do think Salamence should be tested.

 

[Orcelot005]

I don't see what the huge problem is with Salamence. From experience, I've never had problems with Salamence against my team. There's a plethora of options that can be used against Mence. I'm talking about bulky waters, steels, Scarfers, Latias, Pursuit, Stealth Rock, Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, pure physical walls (aka Hippowdon and Zong)... etc. If you don't have at least one of these on your team, then there's something wrong.

I also disagree with Naxte's logic, because with it, we'll have a scenario described perfectly by Poke Community's Dark Azelf:

Out of all those pokemon you listed, NONE of them can switch in safely.

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

If it were that simple, would this thread be taking place? Yes because half of Smogon bandwagons with people who theorymon I'm just saying, it wouldn't hurt to try testing him. I'm trying to give Sally the benefit of the doubt in that this might not be nessecary (which it isn't) but we need to know for sure. With either result, there are going to be the people whining that they didn't get there way but thats life (or at least congress(insert rant about the failure of American government here). If it is meant to be it is meant to be. Besides, you can also vote pokemon down tiers so if it looks like it was a mistake if Salamence was sent to Uber, than we can test him like Manaphy and Garchomp? :/. I'm trying to see this from the third view. And besides, if Sally is innocent, it has nothing to fear...see first comment

But seriously, theres nothing wrong in Salamence in OU, and no reason why it should be Suspect. Its checked by several things, which is good enough for me in a metagame that relies on checks and very few things have "counters"

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

Out of all those pokemon you listed, NONE of them can switch in safely.

Let's see... Steels can switch in safely on Outrage, Heatran on Fire Blast, Latias on EQ or Fire Blast or Brick Break/Roost, etc. Nothing else should switch in on Mence because it would be idiotic to do so

 

[Ulevo]

Thank you for pointing this out, cantab, as this is exactly what I'm getting at. In Ubers Rayquaza easily outclasses Salamence. That is why Rayquaza is in Ubers and Salamence is in OU, and also why Salamence's usage is not as much as Rayquaza's. In essence, Salamence filled the gap Rayquaza left behind. If you ban Salamence, what's next? Flygon? Dragonite? Kingdra? These are all examples, and in no way do I want them tested, but that's the point I'm getting at. You ban one, another will take it's place. This is the way things have always been. Need a Rain Dancer, yet have no access to Kyogre? Use Azelf, Crobat, Zapdos, etc. Need someone for Sunny Day, yet no access to Groudon? Again, you can use Crobat, Azelf, Bronzong, etc. In conclusion, banning Pokémon will not make the metagame stable, nor will it ever, because it was never stable to begin with.

Erm... That is not why Rayquaza and Salamence are placed where they are in their respective tiers. Rayquaza is Uber because it fits under the Suspect Policy requirements. Salamence is currently in OU because up until this point, it was assumed it did not fit the criteria for Uber based on the Suspect Policy.

If we ban Salamence, hypothetically speaking, the only way the Pogey next in line (eg. Latias) will become a suspect is if it is assumed that that Pokemon fits under the Suspect Policy criteria as well. And this is where the slippery slope argument tends to fall apart, because despite the fact that there will always be the top dawgs of any tier, they will not always meet these requirements that classifies them Uber in the first place.

Also, as I'd like to note, clearly no meta in Pokemon will be completely "stable" (whatever definition you may like to hold for that word with regards to Pokemon). So why not play Ubers? Players like an environment where they have variety. The less centralized the meta is, the more competition is likely to flourish. Variety cannot thrive if it is the same one or two Pogeys winning every game.