Salamence Theorymonning

[Class]

You can give a solid argument as to why samamence isnt broken, or you can prove the people who think it is broken wrong (we have posted multiple reasons why we think its uber. I could spell them out for you again but id rather not unless i have to). No one cares about latias garchomp and roserade. THIS IS SALAMENCE. Even if people wont ever be satisfied, thats not a reason to keep a broken pokemon in ou. I agree sometimes bans are based on annoyence (skymin..) but salamence is not annoying. He dominates in a metagame where people have gone to extremes to check him (MINIMUM 2 steals every team), and theres nothing anyone can do about it without running a shitty poke. Its not us being lazy. Its salamence being overpowered (maybe).

EDIT: And the way you build teams is extremely nooby, no offence.

I realize this is quite a few pages back but oh well. This is a sum up of every argument:

Pro-Ubers reasoning:
1. It does significant damage to things if it hits with LO STAB.
2. It can sweep you if it gets a stat boost.
3. It has Intimidate.
4. It hits from both sides of the spectrum.
5. It has amazing STAB.
6. It is unpredictable.

Pro-OU reasoning:
A. Well made teams can deal with it just like any other Pokemon.
B. It has a Stealth Rock weakness that hampers it a lot.
C. Be smart. Don't let it set up. Don't let it sweep you. Play around it.

Granted, Pro-Ubers have more reasons, but are those reasons justified? Take Infernape, for example, who fits every characteristic bar 3. Do people claim Infernape to be broken? No. Even though point 3 is completely negligible. Infernape is even faster than Mence before a DD. Tyranitar also fits those characteristics, bar, once again, 3. Gyarados fits all but 6. You could say "But Salamence fits all characteristics, while no other Pokemon does!" Well, unpredictiability is rarely a factor as the metagame is pretty standard and explored at this point. Intimidate is also negligible.

Pro-Ubers raises good points, ok, but though Pro-OU is simpler and has less arguments, when you think about it, it makes more sense. It is nigh impossible to build a team that can deal with every Pokemon BUT Salamence. Build a team able to deal with it. It isn't hard. A physically bulky Pokemon or a revenge killer or Vaporeon or Scizor or whatever help against much more than Mence. It isn't a wasted slot. You aren't putting it there for just Mence if your team is built well. Granted, argument B is negligible, as it can Roost. That is a turn it isn't hitting you though. A lot of things do substantial damage to Mence and it isn't the only destructive Pokemon out there. Argument C is true for any sweeping Pokemon. If you don't let it set up, it is 100x easier to deal with. Salamence causes switches. So what? A HUGE number of Pokemon cause switches, notably, Scizor, Tyranitar, Gyarados, Skarmory, Blissey, etc. The former 3 can sweep you at a moment's notice, just like Mence. You just have to be prepared, which isn't hard when you think about it.

And, a snide remark @ Ladies Man... I wouldn't be as good of a battler as I am (below the greats, above average) if the way I built teams was "nooby"... so yeah... Maybe you would like to play a game sometime? heh.

 

[Aeolus]

So, I just split the last 300+ or so posts off of my Smogon Council sticky thread because this was simply a mess. I want the sticky thread to be filled with people commenting about actual ladder experiences, etc. once the changes are put into place. You can all continue to theorymon yourselves to death here though.

 

[Boondocker]

I realize this is quite a few pages back but oh well. This is a sum up of every argument:

Pro-Ubers reasoning:
1. It does significant damage to things if it hits with LO STAB.
2. It can sweep you if it gets a stat boost.
3. It has Intimidate.
4. It hits from both sides of the spectrum.
5. It has amazing STAB.
6. It is unpredictable.

Pro-OU reasoning:
A. Well made teams can deal with it just like any other Pokemon.
B. It has a Stealth Rock weakness that hampers it a lot.
C. Be smart. Don't let it set up. Don't let it sweep you. Play around it.

Granted, Pro-Ubers have more reasons, but are those reasons justified? Take Infernape, for example, who fits every characteristic bar 3. Do people claim Infernape to be broken? No. Even though point 3 is completely negligible. Infernape is even faster than Mence before a DD. Tyranitar also fits those characteristics, bar, once again, 3. Gyarados fits all but 6. You could say "But Salamence fits all characteristics, while no other Pokemon does!" Well, unpredictiability is rarely a factor as the metagame is pretty standard and explored at this point. Intimidate is also negligible.

Infernape is not unpredectable. Most sets are nasty plot, or the 4 attack version. Even if you get caught off guard by a swords dance version it can still be countered by starmie. Infernape also doesnt have amazing stab. Fire and fighting COMBINED dont even have same neutral coverage as dragon, and everything that resists them cant be hit super effectively with just 1 move. Infernapes stats in att and spa are also much lower than mences.

Tyranitar doesnt fit 2 because it has many hard counters (swampert, hippo, hell even weavile revenges siince were on that subject). He also doesnt fit 5 because like infernape, dark and rock combined dont have neutral coverage of dragon, and everything that resists them cant be hit super effectively with just 1 move. Id argue that ttar doesnt even fit 6 since most ttar nowadays are scarf versions.

Gyrados doesnt fit 6 at all, cant hit all the types that resist water super effectively in the same set so he doesnt fit 5, and has hard counters so it doesnt fit 2. Also last time i checked gyrados doesnt use special moves so he doesnt fit 4 either.

I dont mean mence is unpredectable as in you have no idea what move its gonna use. Its unpredectable because it has 2 sets both used around 50% of the time that both require completely different counters. Nothing else can claim that.

Pro-Ubers raises good points, ok, but though Pro-OU is simpler and has less arguments, when you think about it, it makes more sense. It is nigh impossible to build a team that can deal with every Pokemon BUT Salamence. Build a team able to deal with it. It isn't hard. A physically bulky Pokemon or a revenge killer or Vaporeon or Scizor or whatever help against much more than Mence. It isn't a wasted slot. You aren't putting it there for just Mence if your team is built well. Granted, argument B is negligible, as it can Roost. That is a turn it isn't hitting you though. A lot of things do substantial damage to Mence and it isn't the only destructive Pokemon out there. Argument C is true for any sweeping Pokemon. If you don't let it set up, it is 100x easier to deal with. Salamence causes switches. So what? A HUGE number of Pokemon cause switches, notably, Scizor, Tyranitar, Gyarados, Skarmory, Blissey, etc. The former 3 can sweep you at a moment's notice, just like Mence. You just have to be prepared, which isn't hard when you think about it.

Vaporeon is 2hkod by draco meteor and 1hkod by +1 outrage. Also, scizor doesnt always ko after rocks and 1 life orb so he is taken down too sometimes. Not to mention he is magnezone bait. Bottom line is that yes, it is that hard to prepare for mence, much moreso than scizor or ttar. You are forced to use a scarf poke over 100 base speed (none bar starmie are decent) or use a weavile or mamoswine if you want to deal with dd mence, and both fail against the rest of the metagame.

And, a snide remark @ Ladies Man... I wouldn't be as good of a battler as I am (below the greats, above average) if the way I built teams was "nooby"... so yeah... Maybe you would like to play a game sometime? heh.

Well you made it seem like you dont account for threats during teambuilding, but after you explained it i agree thats how it should be done. And sure we can battle as soon as i make a new team (old ones had latias).

So, I just split the last 300+ or so posts off of my Smogon Council sticky thread because this was simply a mess. I want the sticky thread to be filled with people commenting about actual ladder experiences, etc. once the changes are put into place. You can all continue to theorymon yourselves to death here though.

haha sorry

 

[Jenica]

Put both Scizor and Salamence to ubers...?

 

[Ciaran]

Anyone who says Mence being revenge kill-able makes him OU is just not thinking straight or something: Rayquaza is revenge killable, let's make him OU. Lati@s (Latios in particular) can be Pursuited by Weavile or Tar, let's make him OU! Come on, now, let's get real here. There's a reason Lati@s and Rayquaza aren't OU, and it's not that they can't be revenge killed.


EDIT: Noooo, I made this great post and it got deleted! I'll try to re-create it.

Infernape is not Mence's equal.

Infernape is grounded, meaning it takes damage from Spikes and Toxic Spikes. It has to run Life Orb or a Choice Item, while Mence can run a bulky set or offensive set with Lefties, Yache, or Lum Berry.

Infernape lacks Mence's STAB coverage (Fire being resisted by Rock, Water, Fire, and Dragon while Fighting is resisted by Ghost, Flying, Poison, Psychic, and Bug) and raw power on both sides of the spectrum (104 is Ape's base stat for both attacking moves. Mence boasts 135 and 110) Infernape's STAB moves are hampered with deficiencies that make them inferior to Mence's for exactly what a lot of people are claiming makes Mence OU, revenging: Flare Blitz and CC, Ape's main physical moves, make Ape susceptible to all kinds of priority hits while his Special STABs, Fire Blast and Focus Blast, have imperfect accuracy that's lower even than Meteor. Both of these make Infernape easier to revenge and swap into.

Infernape doesn't have Dragon Dance or Intimidate, the first of which is half of Mence's potential arsenal and the later makes it easier for Mence to set up, something Infernape has trouble doing without coming into a Pursuit locked Pokemon.

What Infernape has beneficially over Mence is no SR weakness (although it's still neutral), +2 boosting moves for both attacking sides (NP Mence would be scary), priority (Fake Out or Fighting-type), Grass Knot, and U-Turn. That's actually it. Now, some of them are very nice perks, but remember Ape has lower power, defenses, and is vulnerable to far more residual damage than Mence. His STAB moves are (arguably) inferior and don't get the neutral coverage Mence's Outrage does while additionally coming off lower base attack stats, forcing the use of Life Orb increasing the rate of residual damage for Ape.

Mence is better than Ape in terms of just offensive prowess in regular battle conditions. Now this isn't to say Ape is bad. At all. Ape is great. But Mence is...Mence.

I'm in favor of the test and I personally think the OU metagame would be more balanced and more fun without Mence, because let's not beat around the bush. Mence is bar none the greatest threat in OU, even if he's not #1 in the usage stats. If anything deserves a test, especially with Latias now in Ubers, it's Mence.

 

[vielIeis]

Cresselia is still the best counter to Salamence.
With Screens and IceBeam it kills it off and mence can't kill
Cresse anyway.
But I think that it should be uber too because cresse is the only thing that isn't killed bye mence.

 

[Boondocker]

Put both Scizor and Salamence to ubers...?

Scizor is nowhere near uber. He has horrible stab, very low speed, and trapped by magnezone.

 

[Desch]

Can't Choice Scarf flygon one hit kill with Draco Meteor?

 

[Jackos]

With all the time it took to test Latias, I believe that when you guys are done banning Mence (or keeping it as it is) B/W will come out and practically ruin all the work you do by bringing a 100% Mence counter....
But if it gets banned: Hail Dragonite!

 

[Ciaran]

Cresselia is still the best counter to Salamence.
With Screens and IceBeam it kills it off and mence can't kill
Cresse anyway.
But I think that it should be uber too because cresse is the only thing that isn't killed bye mence.

Cress is Taunt Bait if there ever was Taunt Bait. Cress doesn't wall a significant portion of the metagame, nor does it support a sweep by a significant portion of the metagame. Obviously not offensive.

There isn't a single line of Pokemon progression for better and worse. Just because Cress can beat Mence (conditionally) doesn't mean it's better than Mence or even equal.

EDI@Desch: It can. But it speed ties with DD Mence, meaning you have a 45% chance of taking it out (Meteor having 90% accuracy), and the Mixed set can just swap out...So can DD if it doesn't want to risk the speed tie.

 

[S.T.A.R.S.]

Well, there is alot of pokemon that can wall the Ddance set, I really don't see the problem there, but the Mixmence set is the problem.

 

[Epic Cherubi]

If you can't find a slot on your team for Weavile, then w/e, that's fine, but please know what you're talking about before you go on a tirade about how "useless" it is.

I know what I'm talking about, and let me say from experience and common sense that Weavile is absolutely outclassed by Scizor and can cover nothing that a well built team couldn't. At best it trades a 1-1 score (you lose something, Weavile comes in to clean up) at worst Weavile gets OHKOed when you predict wrong. If your opponents are getting "surprised" by a Weavile Pursuit or Ice Shard then thats nothing to brag about.

Also your list is partial bullshit. An Aerodactyl trapper is of no use to an OU team. And how does Weavile revenge kill Lucario. Seriously man, think.


On topic about Salamence, I don't have much to say that hasn't been said already. Mixmence hits with incredible power and DD mence removes a dozen or so counters by skyrocketing his speed so only a tiny percent of pokemon can stop him. The few that can are either Scarfed Psychics (basically Starmie now) or steels who Magnezone just destroys. Until you know Salamence set its basically flipping a coin to know what to send in. Even DD mence can 2HKO just about everything.

Salamence is the only pokemon in OU thats difficult to counter, or even check. Mixmence tears holes in teams as bad, if not worse than Latias.

 

[PK Gaming]

I know what I'm talking about, and let me say from experience and common sense that Weavile is absolutely outclassed by Scizor and can cover nothing that a well built team couldn't. At best it trades a 1-1 score (you lose something, Weavile comes in to clean up) at worst Weavile gets OHKOed when you predict wrong. If your opponents are getting "surprised" by a Weavile Pursuit or Ice Shard then thats nothing to brag about.

For the last time, Scizor doesn't beat on Mence. It has the chance of taking it down if it's a LO DD set, but any other set will absolutely maul Scizor. Weavile has that nice guaranteed OHKO on Salamence no matter WHAT Salamence does.

 

[Alan]

Just posting to say that the thread title made me giggle.

And that I pretty much agree with CAL-Ciaran's first post on this page.

 

[Solace]

The real problem is Mence's diversity in sets. You need to sack a poke just to find out which set it is in most cases, and it may be too late to counter it once you find out. Basically Garchomp syndrome, and Garchomp was banned to Uber due to its volatility.


Mence may take 25% damage to Stealth Rock, but it also avoids Spikes and Toxic Spikes, which plague many other sweepers.

An equal SpAtk Base Stat to Latias, as well as a base 130 Atk Stat, and a diverse movepool that includes Dragon Dance, gives it the edge over every Pokemon in OU.

To have to add a pokemon to your team just to CHECK something like Mence is illogical, and since barely anything can switch into +1 Mence, its checks are few and far between.

 

[Epic Cherubi]

For the last time, Scizor doesn't beat on Mence. It has the chance of taking it down if it's a LO DD set, but any other set will absolutely maul Scizor. Weavile has that nice guaranteed OHKO on Salamence no matter WHAT Salamence does.

If Salamence attacks, Weavile is fucked.

I never called Scizor a Salamence counter. Never once. It IS a Salamence check, since it will survive a +1 Outrage and at worst 2HKO.

Scizor > Weavile.

 

[Towelie]

Infernape is not unpredectable. Most sets are nasty plot, or the 4 attack version. Even if you get caught off guard by a swords dance version it can still be countered by starmie. Infernape also doesnt have amazing stab. Fire and fighting COMBINED dont even have same neutral coverage as dragon, and everything that resists them cant be hit super effectively with just 1 move. Infernapes stats in att and spa are also much lower than mences.

Tyranitar doesnt fit 2 because it has many hard counters (swampert, hippo, hell even weavile revenges siince were on that subject). He also doesnt fit 5 because like infernape, dark and rock combined dont have neutral coverage of dragon, and everything that resists them cant be hit super effectively with just 1 move. Id argue that ttar doesnt even fit 6 since most ttar nowadays are scarf versions.

Gyrados doesnt fit 6 at all, cant hit all the types that resist water super effectively in the same set so he doesnt fit 5, and has hard counters so it doesnt fit 2. Also last time i checked gyrados doesnt use special moves so he doesnt fit 4 either.

I dont mean mence is unpredectable as in you have no idea what move its gonna use. Its unpredectable because it has 2 sets both used around 50% of the time that both require completely different counters. Nothing else can claim that.



Vaporeon is 2hkod by draco meteor and 1hkod by +1 outrage. Also, scizor doesnt always ko after rocks and 1 life orb so he is taken down too sometimes. Not to mention he is magnezone bait. Bottom line is that yes, it is that hard to prepare for mence, much moreso than scizor or ttar. You are forced to use a scarf poke over 100 base speed (none bar starmie are decent) or use a weavile or mamoswine if you want to deal with dd mence, and both fail against the rest of the metagame.



Well you made it seem like you dont account for threats during teambuilding, but after you explained it i agree thats how it should be done. And sure we can battle as soon as i make a new team (old ones had latias).



haha sorry

FYI: Fighting is one of the best stabs in the game .-.

 

[BlueJello]

Revenge killers are just counters that can't switch in on attacks. If a revenge killer could switch in on an attack, it would be a counter.

Which is why the term 'revenge' is used. They want to avenge the fallen teammate. :naughty:

 

[Boondocker]

FYI: Fighting is one of the best stabs in the game .-.

But nowhere near as good as dragon. Water is good too but again not as good as dragon.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

Put both Scizor and Salamence to ubers...?

Scizor isn't Uber at all, it's either Choice Band or Swords Dance which are pretty easy to handle.

Can't Choice Scarf flygon one hit kill with Draco Meteor?

The problem with this is if you're Mixed you can switch and if you're locked into Outrage you'll have used Dragon Dance meaning Flygon has to rely on a speed tie.

With all the time it took to test Latias, I believe that when you guys are done banning Mence (or keeping it as it is) B/W will come out and practically ruin all the work you do by bringing a 100% Mence counter....
But if it gets banned: Hail Dragonite!

Well the council reduces the time the process for voting takes and if the Salamence testing actually lasted until Fall we'd have to wait awhile for a working 5th gen simulator.

Just posting to say that the thread title made me giggle.

And that I pretty much agree with CAL-Ciaran's first post on this page.

I've laughed too.

 

[KurashiDragon]

It seems that the dragon type as a whole is tearing up the metagame from what i'm seeing, first Garchomp gets banned, Latias is unbanned for a while then rebanned and now Salamance is up to bat, Dragonite, Flygon and Kingdra might as well be banned too at this rate.

This isn't about dragon types. I've heard that line so many times its annoying. Dragon's seem to be at the highest end of the ou ladder that much is true however that could be because of the few resistances and superpowered moves to fight those resistances. (Get it "Dragonite" "Superpower" I make myself laugh.)

There's no point because while you can make a paper argument over it. Once a battle starts you ain't gonna know what set a Salamance is packing. So you can never truely counter it.

That's one of the points I'm trying to say. It doesn't have a counter it can call its own. I'd have to try and figure it out by sacing 1-3 pokemon to a draco meteor or fire blast for steels. That'd be how I'd figure out mixed mence. In order to figure out a dd set I'd have to put something in that gets dded on then I'd get swept. Sure I can whirlwind or roar it away but what if it has Draco Meteor for swampy or Hippo and fireblast for skarmory. That's just off the top of my head.

Dragonite has more bulk than Salamance does as well as access to a priority move since HG/SS came out, in my honest opinion that ties things up.

While I will admit Extremespeed was a great move for dragonite and just another way for it to etch its way away from salamences shadow but unlike Lucario it has no successful means of bringing up its atk without making extremespeed useless. It's basically only reserved for the choice band and anti lead sets. Not only that but your giving a pokemon who's typing is resisted by something so common a move that is resisted by that same type which makes it that much more pointless.

Power alone does not determine a battle, nor does having "perfect counters" seriously do you people want the metagame to be like that, people using the same pokemon with the same movesets over and over? That would get boring really quick. Versatility in a pokemon is a good thing, which by the way all Dragons have not just Salamance.

It does in a Dragonite vs Salamence senario. Salamence's Higher sp. atk combined with its higher base speed and better ability is enough to completely dominate over dragonite in team situations. Dragonite has more bulk, that is true and if it weren't I wouldn't try and put the bulky ddnite set somewhere in my team whenever I think about 1 however Salamence's power gives it more of an edge in battle.

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

OK well, I personally think that Salamence should be OU for many reasons. First of all, Salamence can be easily revenged and dies very quickly with Stealth Rock, Life Orb, and Sandstorm, with SR and SS both being very common battle conditions. In fact if Salamence switches into Stealth Rock with Sandstorm and attacks, it's just lost about 41% of its health, allowing Scizor to easily revenge it.

CB Scizor Bullet Punch vs New Mixmence
58.9% - 69.2%

As you can see, Scizor has a very big chance to KO Mence after those conditions. Even though Salamence is very versatile, you need to remember that even though Outrage is strong, you guys need to stop making a big deal about it. Once you've used Outrage, you're locked into it for a few turns, allowing you to switch in a Steel Type like Skarmory, who can then do something like set up Spikes while Mence is Outraging. Draco Meteor, although powerful, lowers the user's special attack, which everyone seems to orget. Everyone says that Draco Meteor and that it's a broken attack being Dragon-typed and having 140 base power, but it does have a cost. Fire Blast and Earthquake are usually the only other attacks that Mence uses and neither of those get STAB. On paper, Mence seems powerful, but you need to remember that both of its main STAB attacks have a cost and Salamence can be usually revenged. That's just my opinion on this dragon that everyone's making a big deal about.

 

[Ace Emerald]

I came to this thread with almost no knowledge of the domination of latias or salamence (probably cause of my sucky ladder rating). I have to say those who voted to ban salamence and latias always had better arguments. From the posts in this thread, I say salamence should be banned.

 

[Garganator]

I love how people whine about Mix Mence having no hard counters except Cresselia, when pokemon like Machamp... has hard counters, but nobody uses them. (Spiritomb, Dusknoir, Slowbro.)

The funniest thing about Cresselia is that she can't handle CBMence, as Outrage boosted by CHoice Band easily 2OHKO her with SR up. And some people started to use CBMence as it probably the most beastly 'hole' opener for other sweepers in your team, even better then DDMence or MixMence (however it needs more team support, true). Also New MixMence works fine against Cresselia if she switches on SR and looses before at least... 10% of her health (in overall 22%) then our so mighty Cressy is as good as dead. So Yeah, don't even bother with mentioning Cresselia as ultimate Salamence counter because it isn't true. And Cressy hates both Scizor and Tyranitar, so you may take her out before Salamence rampage if you play it right.

Now that Latias is gone, Mence has lost a potential counter so it's a greater threat than it was (and it was already pretty grizzly). My fear is that this will be reflected in the results of the test. Pokemon have variable threat levels depending on the metagame. If Mence is taken away, the metagame shifts drastically and a very powerful beast is removed. Something else will step up to the plate and there will be new sets and counter-sets for a while until the next threat too is deemed too powerful for OU.

I may tell, which pokemon will replace Salamence. This pokemon is Dragonite. It's almost the same as Salamence except speed. However this speed difference makes COLOSSAL difference, making Dragonite easier to deal with. Examples ? ScarfRachi - with Dragonite ScarfRachi doesn't need to risk speed tie and may easily switch on Specs/Life Orb Draco Meteor if you mispredict making it almost perfect check. Heck, you may even use... ScarfLucario, as it does the same and check few different pokemon then Jirachi. Specially defensive Skarmory only fears Specs Fire Blast and those 10 points difference in special attack helps alot (it looks the same with Bronzong). If Dragonite doesn't run Jolly, ScarfTran and ScarfMetagross goes in as another perfect Nite checks. I can see that banning Salamence and letting Dragonite have more fun would help metagame a bit. Especially when it goes to higher creativity in creating teams. And yes, I can imagine this "line in banning OU pokemon" after Salamence ban. Salamence is the biggest threat right now and Dragonite is easier to deal with. And nothing like Salamence forces you to play sometimes futile guessing games (as you may mispredict, no ones is perfect).

If you have used Salamence,you would know that he is worn down VERY quickly.That gives him less time to cause destruction and easier to revenge kill.

This is really funny thing, which makes me laugh a bit. WHen someone thinks Salamence is frail... then he really doesn't know what he talks about. Ever heart of FatMence ? Pokemon, which laughs on both Scizor and Lucario and may counter both of them without any problems. Pokemon, which is strong enough to switch on CB Heracross and roost any hits which it throws. Salamence may act both as a special or physical wall if you want. You may also easy EV Salamence to make it bulky enough to Roost and DD at once when facing... CB Bullet Punches from Scizor or even Ice Beams from defensive Vaporeon or Cresselia. It all depends on EVs. Salamence isn't the most bulky thing around, but he can take some surprising beating if played and EVed right. And some good players abuse it, making less experienced players really sad. Seriously, Salamence is versitale enough to play almost every single role you want in your team. And this is why it's so dangerous and for me Uber strong enough.

Salamence, on the other hand, is another round. While it is a little overpowered it can be beaten if you are prepared for it.

You must be OVERPREPARED to counter it. You carry only one check ? I feel sorry for you, if you mispredict and face set, which your check can't handle. And we all know that Salamence doesn't have perfect counter, so it's guessing game. You need at least 2-3 check for it. For me it sounds overcentralizing. It's that simple in my opinion.

A message to Mence haters: Salamence. Does. Not. Break. Stall. Unless. It. Is. Bad. Stall. (kinda like sprinkles but worse, much worse stall that is)[.quote]

CBMence ;). If switches in and weakens at least 1-2 stall pokemon enough to help for example Lucario whipe the rest. Even mighty steels takes 40-55% percent of their health, so yeah ;). Really, if played right Salamence is hard for stall to face. Really hard. And most players use DDMence late game, when most walls are weakenes at least a bit. This bit is enough. Pair it up with some good Taunt user or... even random thing like Clefable (someone remembers Obi Stall weakness ? Yes, it's Clefable) and you're on. Magnezone also is perfect in this way or Dugtrio, if you hate certain steel types. Yes, I'm mostly stall player and only Salamence gives me headaches like this. Yes, I stop him all of time, but sometimes I need to pay really high price and beg, that something like SDLuke doesn't wait to finish this. It's not unstoppable for stall, however it's annoying and threatening enough and even stall may need to sacrifice something to stop it. Even with Latias I never felt like this. I most of times think not "How I stop all OU Metagame" but "Mence, be sure to stop Mence" and I'm never sure that I do it. Heck, the most shocking thing is when Outrage just get critical hit... this really hurts, trust me ;).

If weavile and Mamoswine suck, then why are they OU? Come on now, they are perfect counters to Mence, Most Weaviles are Sashed and run Ice shard. Most mamo's are used in the beginning where most Ddance mences are too. And like i said before, ANY pokemon that Sets up a Stat Boost is going to be much harder to deal with. You won't be able to switch in pokemon like you could BECAUSE of the stat boost. Also, Iwho doesn't bring one pokemon for dragon types? Really, in this day, your telling me nobody brings atleast one Ice or Dragon Move?

And why Electivire and Ninjask are OU ? Or even Umbreon ? Because Shoddy not only have good players, but also those less experienced which think some pokemon are good and unfortunately they aren't. I wouldn't agree with calling Weavile/Mamoswine weak in the past, but now they have one Nemezis making them really weak - Bullet Punch Scizor. And just check statistics through all those months and compare Weavile and Mamoswine positions right now and for example in Garchomp era. See the difference ?

Most Weaviles are Sashed -> LOL. Why in the hell you would run Focus Sash with SR everywhere outside of Lead ? And even if you run them on lead - so what ? You may play around it and lure them to let Salamence have fun later. Heck, you even give your opponent important information - I need to watch out with Outrage, as opponent has Weavile/Mamoswine. I'll just patiently wait and find my chance. Or some Salamence use Yache Berry... making those two sad.

And the problem with Salamence is that not every single pokemon can threaten it. Scizor is locked on CB Pursuit. Salamence switches in. And tell me - how the hell Salamence CAN'T use Dragon Dance in moment like this ? Simple - good player will ALWAYS find a chance to use this Dragon Dance, as Salamence has great typing, Intimidiate and usefull resistances and solid bulk to always find this turn. At least if you're a decent player. I almost swear that you only faced noobs. At least it looks like this for me. Ok, you may use ice attack on EVERY single pokemon, but don't you think it's a bit too centralizing ? Remember which pokemon forced ice-type attacks rampage ? Yes, our famous Garchomp. If you want to be prepared and not let Salamence set-up - you would need to do something ridiculous like this. But it's not practical, as you may loose some coverage against pokemon like Swampert or something else.

ANd comparing Salamence to Blissey - are you serious ?

I feel the need to respond to this post. Latias was voted OU simply because the Specs set wasn't made standard. I mean think about it. Shortly after Latias was allowed into the OU metagame there wasn't anything really wrong with this pokemon. It had it's counters (Ttar, CBlax, Blissey) It's checks (Scizor + any scarf user) It was your run of the mill top tier OU pokemon. The specs set changed that however.

THis argument is right. I may give some example when some normal pokemon after discovering one sets starts to be broken. Guess which pokemon I think about ? Yes, about Garchomp. I remember that in the beginning Garchomp used most of time Dragon Claw, with Yache or without it. Gyarados against Dragon Claw variant is almost perfect counter. The same goes to Cresselia or Hippowdon. But someone discovered that Outrage 2OHKOes almost everything and almost nothing can OHKO Garchomp back thanks to Yache Berry. It ended the same with Latias, when people discovered Specs power. This is it. Pokemon not always are 'clearly' broken at the beginning. You need to discover later this 'brokiness' sometimes to know, that this pokemon is much more deadly then we thought.

 

[Roizen]

Once you've used Outrage, you're locked into it for a few turns, allowing you to switch in a Steel Type like Skarmory, who can then do something like set up Spikes while Mence is Outraging.

+1 Life Orb Outrage from 252 Atk Naive Salamence vs 252 HP/0 Def Careful Skarmory (the new standard): 44.01% minimum

A 100% chance of 2HKO with SR damage, as Skarmory needs Shed Shell and has no Leftovers recovery. Skarmory is not spikeing in Mence's face anywhere.