Sceptile (Stall Breaker)

[Zoap]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/sceptile

[SET]
Name:Stall Breaker
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Focus Punch
move 3: HP Psychic/ HP Ice
move 4: Leaf Storm
item: Life Orb/Expert Belt
ability: Overgrow
nature: Naive
EV's: 252 SpA, 116 Att, 140 Spe


why this set deserves to be on-site:
-Sceptile has great stats in both Attack(85) and Special Attack(105) allowing it to effectively break down many forms of Stall.
-Sceptile's 120 base speed allow it to outpace the majority of UU, giving it plenty of opportunities to set up a Substitute.
-Effective at luring out Sceptile's #1 counter and guaranteeing a 2HKO with Stealth Rock
-Focus Punch/Leaf Storm hit hard on both ends of the spectrum often allowing for OHKO's on some of UU's best walls.

additional comments:
-Life Orb is the primary item but Expert Belt isn't a bad option considering how frail Sceptile is.
-The EV's in speed with the Naive nature allow Sceptile to outpace all positive 105 base pokemon.
-The choice between HP Psychic and Ice is that of who your team struggles with, if Weezing seems to be more problematic to you then run HP Psychic, if Altaria/Torterra then run HP Ice. If you run HP Ice you need only 136 in Speed as you don't lose the 1 IV point.

Teamates:
-Heavily appreciates Entry hazards, especially Stealth Rock, due to his ability to force switches. (Omastar, Kabutops, Cloyster etc)
-Pokemon who can deal with Uxie due to it being a solid check to this set. Rotom/Mismagius/Spiritomb and Drapion are good partners for this set.
-Registeel can pose a problem if it is heavily invested in Defense, so Dugtrio or Rhyperior are always a good partner.
- Dependent on which Hidden Power you choose, partners who can effectively handle Altaria/Torterra or Weezing/Toxicroak are always welcomed.

Counters:
-Uxie with HP/SpD investment is a good check to this set.
-Moltres and Scyther make adequate checks as long as SR is not present, though Scyther is still getting outpaced and takes heavy damage from HP Ice.
-Strong priority from the likes of Arcanine/Hitmontop/Ambipom can pick off Sceptile if he's taken some damage and is not behind a Sub.
-Altaria is a good choice if the set doesn't include HP Ice but should still be wary as it is almost a guaranteed OHKO on 252/252 with rocks.
-Alternatively if HP Ice is run over HP Psychic Weezing is more than adequate taking 25.4% - 30.2% from HP Ice.


Calcs vs Common Stall Team Pokemon:

Life Orb HP Ice vs Max/Max+ Altaria- 67.8% - 80.2%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Blastoise - 98.3% - 116.6%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs Max/Max+ Chansey - 78.4% - 92.3%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Chansey - 25.3% - 30%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Claydol - 100% - 118.5%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs Max/Max+ Clefable- 62.4% - 73.6%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Clefable - 50.3% - 59.4%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Cloyster - 192.1% - 227%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs Max/Max+ Cloyster- 43.4% - 51.3%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Donphan - 131.3% - 154.7%
Life Orb HP Psychic vs Max/Max+ Hitmontop - 37.5% - 44.7%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Hitmontop - 56.6% - 67.1%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Milotic - 79.7% - 94.4%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs Max/Max+ Miltank - 49.2% - 58.4%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Miltank- 58.6% - 69.3%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Omastar - 268.6% - 317.4%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs Max/Max+ Regirock - 33.5% - 39.6%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+/Sandstorm Regirock - 67.6% - 79.7%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs Max/Max+ Registeel - 41.2% - 48.9
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Slowbro - 107.1% - 126.9%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Slowking - 87.3% - 103.6%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Spiritomb - 58.2% - 68.4%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs Max/Max+ Steelix - 34.5% - 40.7%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Steelix - 67.8% - 79.7%
Life Orb HP Ice vs Max/Max+ Tangrowth - 46% - 54.5%
Life Orb HP Psychic vs Max/Max+ Tangrowth - 23% - 27.2%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Tangrowth - 34.2% - 40.3%
Life Orb HP Ice vs Max/Max+ Torterra - 69% - 82.2%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs Max/Max+Torterra - 24.6% - 29.2%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+Torterra - 51.8% - 61.4%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Uxie - 43.5% - 51.7%
Life Orb HP Ice/Psychic vs Max/Max+ Venusaur - 34.1% - 40.7%
Life Orb HP Psychic vs Max/Max+ Weezing - 46.7% - 55.1%

 

[Zoap]

no opinions :(

 

[Thorns]

i wouldn't call this a stall breaker since you can't touch fire types, grass types or uxie, but i think this would have some merit as a standard subpuncher, and it should be advertised as such

 

[Phadunk]

Slapping Sub + Focus Punch on anything doesn't allow it to be a stall-breaker.

 

[sharkz]

meh doesn't look too effective to me, a lot of your calcs show that it can't even 2ko some walls...

 

[Zoap]

Thorns: While I definitely agree with you on Uxie, common fire types don't come close to walling this set and grass types need significant SpD to be able to with stand HP Psychic and Leafstorm. And as far as I know only two grass types in UU that are used as Special Walls are Venusaur and Meganium(basically unheard of). Though Ludicolo and Exeggutor are very possible choices.

Here are the Calcs for the above:

Life Orb HP Ice/Psychic vs Max/Max+ Venusaur - 34.1% - 40.7%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs 216/148+ Meganium - 31% - 36.6%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs 216/0 Meganium - 35.8% - 42.3%
Life Orb HP Ice vs 216/0 Meganium -47.9% - 56.9%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs 252/0 Exeggutor - 46.2% - 54.3%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs 232/0 Ludicolo - 52.1% - 61.6%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs 232/216+ Ludicolo - 52.6% - 62.1%

So yes the two best SpD grass do wall this set but Venusaur is guaranteed 3HKO without residual damage, and Meganium can't break Sceptile's Subs in one shot. Ludicolo is a 2HKO if behind a Sub and Exeggutor is taking more the 50% of its HP assuming rocks are down.

Some other Grass types:

Life Orb HP Psychic vs 252/0 Tangrowth - 36.6% - 43.3%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs 252/0 Tangrowth - 47.9% - 56.9%
Life Orb HP Psychic vs 252/0 Torterra - 25.1% - 29.7%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs 252/0 Torterra - 74.6% - 87.8%
Life Orb HP Psychic vs 252/0 Leafeon - 36.5% - 43.1%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs 252/0 Leafeon - 54.5% - 64.1%

As you can see everything is a guaranteed 2HKO with rock using HP Psychic and Leaf Storm except for Tangrowth who requires a layer of spikes as well.

Now on to Fire types:

Life Orb Focus Punch vs 240/168+ Arcanine - 33.1% - 39.1%(Bulky Set)
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs 240/0 Arcanine - 40.7% - 48%(Bulky Set)
Life Orb HP Psychic vs 252/0 Blaziken - 63.2% - 74.7%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs 252/252+ Houndoom - 85.3% - 100.6%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs 228/0 Camerupt - 55.3% - 65.4% (Support Set)
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs 228/208 Camerupt - 75.1% - 88.8%(Support Set)
Life Orb Focus Punch vs 184/0 Entei - 38.1% - 45.1% (Calm Mind Set)
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs 184/0 Entei - 38.8% - 46%(Calm Mind Set)
Life Orb Focus Punch vs 252/0 Magmortar - 54.5% - 64.4%
Life Orb HP Psychic vs 252/0 Magmortar - 23.2% - 27.4%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs 252/0 Typhlosion - 47.5% - 56.1%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs 252/0 Typhlosion - 47% - 55.5%

I've listed some of the fires I commonly see in UU up there with their on site bulky/support ev spread(if they don't have one then I went with 252 in HP and 0 with no + nature. And as you can see with the exception on the Bulky Arcanine set, every common UU Fire is 2HKO'd with by Focus Punch + Leaf Storm with rocks. Arcanine by lives with ~2% of its life with min damage.

As a small note Charizard who although is rare, is going to be slashed in to Moltres under counters as it is the same typing and presents the same issues.

Phadunk: I agree but this set helps to take down the common Milotic/Chansey/Weezing core with relative ease

Sharkz: Before commenting on the effectiveness, I just ask that you try the set out. It's not like this set is meant to sweep the oppositions team, it rather is used to break down the core of stall while still being a viable threat to non stall.

 

[Banedon]

meh doesn't look too effective to me, a lot of your calcs show that it can't even 2ko some walls...

I think you're missing the point - all of those calcs are against max/max+, and those walls won't always be max/max+.

I have a question about this set. Why not run standard mixed Sceptile, who won't need to put up a Substitute to immediately threaten some walls like Chansey?

 

[Zoap]

There are a few things I find more useful about this set then the mixed set:

-With Sub you avoid the annoying Intimidate drop from Arcanine who if played right with a levitator/flying can knock the mixed sceptiles attack to -2 with ease.
-Sub allows you to avoid status from Chansey/Registeel. This means that your speed doesn't go to waste when they switch in and try and T-wave you.
-Sub can also protect you from priority users like Scarf Absol, Fake Out Ambipom and Sucker Punch Doom.
-Because of the investment so heavily in Attack over SpA on the Mixed set, Clefable/Miltank are not guaranteed 2HKO's unless you run Focus Blast.
-The biggest seller for me though is that you no longer have to rely on Focus Blast shaky accuracy to score some of the 2HKO's as mentioned.


Overall the sets are similar and the mixed set is a great set. I guess the biggest selling point of this set is that you get the protection from priority and status via sub, while still being able to put a dent in the majority of stall.

 

[YaM]

All your calculations are 252/252+. You're being way too harsh on yourself. How many of these stall Pokemon actually run this totally specially defensive set.

Stuff like Blastoise, Claydol, Hitmontop, Milotic, Tangrowth, Torterra, Uxie, Slowbro...

The most important calculations will be on common bulky versions of Pokemon like Venusaur, Arcanine, Milotic, Spiritomb...

 

[ARandomDude]

Mention Toxic Spikes, both as a hazard that needs to be cleared, and as good team support. substitute+poisoned+life orb against a good stall player means you will get, like, one kill, hardly a stall breaker. Toxic Spikes also helps a lot against grounded walls not named venusaur.

 

[Zoap]

YaM: I always just like to run my calcs with max/max+ to give me a good idea on if it is a really good idea or not. As you can see with the calcs even with the max/max+ this Sceptile can 2HKO the majority. But I see your point so here are the Calcs for the Bulky Pokemon you listed:

Life Orb HP Ice/Psychic vs Max/Max+ Venusaur - 34.1% - 40.7%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs 240/168+ Arcanine - 33.1% - 39.1%(Bulky Set)
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs 240/0 Arcanine - 40.7% - 48%(Bulky Set)
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/56+ Milotic - 93.4% - 110.2%(Rest Talk Set)
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/116+ Spiritomb - 64.1% - 76%(Curse Set)
Life Orb -2 Leaf Storm vs Max/116+ Spiritomb - 32.6% - 38.5%(Curse Set)

Everything up there is a high chance of 2HKO with Rocks aside from Venusaur.

ARandomDude: If I end up writing an analysis I'll be sure to include that a Rapid Spinner/Toxic Spike absorber makes a good partner. As to actually laying of Tspikes, with Venusaur being #2 in usage right now I don't think that their as useful.

 

[Zoap]

*Bump* any other thoughts?

 

[Alan]

why wouldn't you use mixtile instead?

 

[Zoap]

As I stated in above post the major selling point is Substitute.

-Sub eases prediction and can give you advantage vs many of Sceptiles counters: Swellow, Venusaur, Registeel, Weezing etc.
-With Sub you avoid the annoying Intimidate drop from Arcanine/Hitmontop who if played right with a levitator/flying can knock the mixed sceptiles attack to -2 with ease.
-Sub allows you to avoid status. So no Attack drop from WoW or half speed from T-Wave. Where as the Mixed set is susceptible to both.
-Sub can also protect you from priority users like Scarf Absol, Fake Out Ambipom and Sucker Punch Doom.
-Because of the investment so heavily in Attack over SpA on the Mixed set, Clefable/Miltank are not guaranteed 2HKO's unless you run Focus Blast. Where as this set guarantees the 2HKO on both.
-The biggest seller for me though is that you no longer have to rely on Focus Blast shaky accuracy to score some of the 2HKO's as mentioned.

 

[Luf]

As I stated in above post the major selling point is Substitute.

-Sub eases prediction and can give you advantage vs many of Sceptiles counters: Swellow, Venusaur, Registeel, Weezing etc.
-With Sub you avoid the annoying Intimidate drop from Arcanine/Hitmontop who if played right with a levitator/flying can knock the mixed sceptiles attack to -2 with ease.
-Sub allows you to avoid status. So no Attack drop from WoW or half speed from T-Wave. Where as the Mixed set is susceptible to both.
-Sub can also protect you from priority users like Scarf Absol, Fake Out Ambipom and Sucker Punch Doom.
-Because of the investment so heavily in Attack over SpA on the Mixed set, Clefable/Miltank are not guaranteed 2HKO's unless you run Focus Blast. Where as this set guarantees the 2HKO on both.
-The biggest seller for me though is that you no longer have to rely on Focus Blast shaky accuracy to score some of the 2HKO's as mentioned.

You don't avoid the -1 Attack anyways because a more realistic scenario would look like this.

Person A switches in Sceptile.
Milotic used Surf.
Person B switches in Arcanine.
Arcanines's Intimidate lowers Sceptile's attack stat.
Sceptile used Substitute.

And you could just use Low Kick if you wanted to 2HKO Chansey and Registeel, so what's the point? Also, Focus Punch is hardly more reliable than Low Kick or Focus Blast. Focus Punch relies on great prediction skills or a Substitute. However, if you use Substitute, you are left with fewer slots for type coverage. You don't even have reliable STAB.

As for your first argument, you should just be using SubSeed if you want to attempt to beat Swellow and Venusaur. Anyways, a good Weezing would never Will-O-Wisp a Sceptile if they know you have something with Flash Fire in the first place. They would end up just using Sludge Bomb breaking your Substitute.

As for Clefable and Miltank:
Calcs are assuming a spread of 252 Atk / 80 SpA / 176 Spe and a Hasty Nature.

LO Leaf Storm vs. 252/100+ Clefable 50.3% - 59.4%
LO Leaf Blade vs. 252/152 Clefable 39.1% - 46.4%

LO Leaf Storm vs. 252/0 Miltank 74.9% - 88.3%
-2 LO Leaf Storm vs. 252/0 Miltank 37.6% - 44.4%

All you need is Stealth Rock and you have an almost guaranteed 2HKOs anyways, so that's not a valid argument either. This "Stall Breaker" gets the worst of both worlds from the MixTile and the SubSeeder.

 

[Zoap]

You don't avoid the -1 Attack anyways because a more realistic scenario would look like this.

Person A switches in Sceptile.
Milotic used Surf.
Person B switches in Arcanine.
Arcanines's Intimidate lowers Sceptile's attack stat.
Sceptile used Substitute.

You're completely right but notice how I said -2 and not -1. The fact that Sub protects your from multiple intimidates is a good thing.

And you could just use Low Kick if you wanted to 2HKO Chansey and Registeel, so what's the point? If you would optimize this "Stall Breaker," you would get something similar if not equivalent to MixTile. Also, Focus Punch is hardly more reliable than Low Kick or Focus Blast. Focus Punch relies on great prediction skills or a Substitute. However, if you use Substitute, you are left with fewer slots for type coverage. You don't even have reliable STAB.

Life Orb Low Kick vs 0/252 Chansey 43.1% - 50.9%

Hardly a 2HKO on standard Wish Chansey(44.97% chance with Rocks and Leftovers), Registeel on the other hand is a 2HKO assuming the 252/0 spread.

Predictions are part of the game and a Sub only ease that aspect. So why not take full advantage of it.

You didn't however address how this Sceptile is better at avoiding WoW/Twave, isn't walled by Weezing and that you don't have to rely on 70% accuracy to dent the majority of UU.

 

[Luf]

You still get the 2HKO with Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes. Substitute makes you fodder for Arcanine, Moltres, and any other fire-type. You have terrible coverage, reliant on Focus Punch, and lack reliable STAB. Anyways you are still wouldn't win against Weezing because most are paired with Spiritomb anyways.

Using your spread of Sceptile.

LO Hidden Power Psychic vs. 252/240 Weezing 26.3% - 31.1%
I don't see how this is 2HKOing. Considering most Weezing run this spread now and have Rest + Sleep Talk, you are not breaking through it even with a critical hit (with max damage) and another consecutive one with max damage. Even if they weren't running this spread, most people would switch to Spiritomb.

Calcs are assuming a 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def spread with Spiritomb.

Shadow Sneak vs. 0/0 Sceptile 43.1% - 51.2%
Sucker Punch vs. 0/0 Sceptile 85.8% - 101.4%

As for the whole status argument, a good player would never switch or keep their Sceptile in against Weezing. It walls you anyways, so what's the point in staying in?

 

[Zoap]

You still get the 2HKO with Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes.

Stealth Rock is a given, Spikes are not.

Substitute makes you fodder for Arcanine, Moltres

This partially true, just because the majority of Moltres are bad for this set. But the majority of Arcanine run offensive sets and are not nearly as bulky as the set above.

and any other fire-type. You have terrible coverage, reliant on Focus Punch, and lack reliable STAB.

What is Leaf Storm? I'm pretty sure Sceptile is grass and Leaf Storm is grass, doesn't that mean STAB? Stop saying I don't have STAB when it's off a 309 SpA and Base 140.

I'm pretty sure when someone runs Sub/Punch they are relying on it for a majority of their kills. Maybe you should go attack Breloom since you hate Focus Punch. And did you read any of the Calcs on the Fire pokemon?!

Life Orb HP Psychic vs 252/0 Blaziken - 63.2% - 74.7%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs 252/252+ Houndoom - 85.3% - 100.6%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs 228/0 Camerupt - 55.3% - 65.4% (Support Set)
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs 228/208 Camerupt - 75.1% - 88.8%(Support Set)
Life Orb Focus Punch vs 184/0 Entei - 38.1% - 45.1% (Calm Mind Set)
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs 184/0 Entei - 38.8% - 46%(Calm Mind Set)
Life Orb Focus Punch vs 252/0 Magmortar - 54.5% - 64.4%
Life Orb HP Psychic vs 252/0 Magmortar - 23.2% - 27.4%
Life Orb Focus Punch vs 252/0 Typhlosion - 47.5% - 56.1%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs 252/0 Typhlosion - 47% - 55.5%

Looks like guaranteed 2HKO's on ALL of these Fire types assuming Rocks. But maybe I should include a layer of spikes in my calcs as well

Anyways you are still wouldn't win against Weezing because most are paired with Spiritomb anyways.

Ok Spiritomb if offensive lacks a recovery move, and using your spread:

72% - 84.9% from Leaf Storm

Wow, that means that prediction can lead to the 2HKO, and even if it doesn't then thats easily revenged.

The other Spiritomb sets I calculated, that you apparently have not looked at are:

Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/Max+ Spiritomb - 58.2% - 68.4%
Life Orb Leaf Storm vs Max/116+ Spiritomb - 64.1% - 76%(Curse Set)
Life Orb -2 Leaf Storm vs Max/116+ Spiritomb - 32.6% - 38.5%(Curse Set)

Using your spread of Sceptile.

LO Hidden Power Psychic vs. 252/240 Weezing 26.3% - 31.1%

WTF are you using as stats:

Life Orb MAX SPA Sceptile vs 252/252 + Weezing does 46.7% - 55.1% as I stated above. I uses Calm which is +SpD, so wth did you use?

I don't see how this is 2HKOing. Considering most Weezing run this spread now and have Rest + Sleep Talk, you are not breaking through it even with a critical hit (with max damage) and another consecutive one with max damage. Even if they weren't running this spread, most people would switch to Spiritomb.

Then your obviously doing something wrong and need to double check. Maybe if you would get off trying to say the Mixed Sceptile is better and that this is inferior, you would actually do research/try the set.

Calcs are assuming a 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def spread with Spiritomb.

Shadow Sneak vs. 0/0 Sceptile 43.1% - 51.2%
Sucker Punch vs. 0/0 Sceptile 85.8% - 101.4%

Funny those do the same damage to Mixed Sceptile... SCEPTILE IS NOT MEANT TO BE BULKY, its meant to cause as much damage as possible.

As for the whole status argument, a good player would never switch or keep their Sceptile in against Weezing. It walls you anyways, so what's the point in staying in?

Yes because Weezing is the only one with the ability to spread status. I used him as an example, Chansey,Rotom, Registeel, Bulky Mismagius or anything else that is bulky enough is more than capable of spreading status to Mixtile.

 

[breh]

Ok as far as I understand from skimming, Orly's main complaint is not that it doesn't do sufficient damage but that the set is inferior to the normal mixtile because it wastes a moveslot on Sub (LO+Sub+no recovery is not too good, really) and is reliant on Focus Punch (before you say I should look at Breloom, breloom has 130 base attack vs. 85, doesn't have to split effort values, has a 100% accurate sleep move, and is able to stall for 32 turns ala walrein in clear weather); I mean focus punch is cool and all but not really all that powerful if you're running so little attack.

Finally, it seems to me that the main allure of this set is Substitute, not Focus Punch. Maybe just change Focus Punch to Focus blast and call it a day? Sure you don't KO chansey, but screw chansey it's already easy enough to kill IMO... just run CB absol or spiritomb or something for it; it's not difficult to take care of.

 

[Zoap]

Ok as far as I understand from skimming, Orly's main complaint is not that it doesn't do sufficient damage but that the set is inferior to the normal mixtile because it wastes a moveslot on Sub (LO+Sub+no recovery is not too good, really) and is reliant on Focus Punch (before you say I should look at Breloom, breloom has 130 base attack vs. 85, doesn't have to split effort values, has a 100% accurate sleep move, and is able to stall for 32 turns ala walrein in clear weather); I mean focus punch is cool and all but not really all that powerful if you're running so little attack.

Perhaps Expert Belt would be the better item with Life Orb slashed in? I just used Breloom as an example, I know no one in their right mind would attack that set. Focus Punch does significant damage to the Pokemon who don't take a lot from Leaf Storm.

Finally, it seems to me that the main allure of this set is Substitute, not Focus Punch. Maybe just change Focus Punch to Focus blast and call it a day? Sure you don't KO chansey, but screw chansey it's already easy enough to kill IMO... just run CB absol or spiritomb or something for it; it's not difficult to take care of.

To be perfectly honest your right about Sub being the main allure, Focus Punch was just the hardest hitting thing that Sceptile can do behind a Sub on the Physical side.The fact that it can KO Chansey is just a +. I'm more than hesitant to change it to 70% accuracy.

Thank You Breludicolo for not attacking the idea and instead for the suggestions. Perhaps a name change?

 

[SJCrew]

Well, 70% accuracy is certainly better than being completely and utterly reliant on sub for your signature move to hit, especially without Encore or any bulk.

 

[Zoap]

Well, 70% accuracy is certainly better than being completely and utterly reliant on sub for your signature move to hit, especially without Encore or any bulk.

Yet the Subseed set on site has no HP/Def/SpD EV's and seems to be viable. 70% IMHO is not reliable.

 

[franky]

hmmm this is actually a good set, minus the inability to beat fire-types. dugtrio obviously mitigates this problem by removing specially defensive arcanine and registeel. from a luring standpoint, mismagius is also a good idea - a lot of regis seemed to enjoy staying in to break the sub and it gets real weakened for mismagius to sweep. sub is also dope - easens prediction and makes leaf storm closer to powerful at overgrow range. lo + sub seems like the favorable option imo, expert belt is ass.

edit:

btw run hasty cause bs milotic hurts you with ice beam. a lot of the open opportunities will come ffrom milotic and naive nature makes it difficult to switch in especially with sub + lo in effect. hasty nature needs a slash. sub offsets the use of hasty nature cause its protected from priority and i don't think you are switching in on offensive leafeon and torterra anyways.. so the loss of physical bulk is nearly futile.

 

[SJCrew]

You are missing the point. Without Substitute, Focus Punch is effectively worthless. As in, you cannot attack directly with it. If Registeel faces you down at 30% health while you're at 20%, you lose outright. If Registeel comes in while you're not under a sub, you still lose. Even if you are under a sub, it will break it and continue to hammer away at you with plently of health to spare.

Focus Blast will only hit 70% of the time, but you can use it whenever you want. That is what I mean by more reliable.

I'm not making any calls on which one is better, but in either case, I do think you're dropping a lot of coverage just to beat Chansey. With this set, Moltres will force you out every time, and you can't do anything about revenging Fire types or Toxicroak. The mixed set is a much more reliable sweeper overall, and makes better use of Sceptile's abilities by outright attacking. I'm not sure if the niche this covers is effective enough to promote any usage.

 

[franky]

sub is good. it protects it from bs sucker punch from absol and spiritomb. the only priority move that threatens sceptile even with the sub is arcanine. sub easens predictions and allows sceptile to beat chansey - something mix can't really do that well imo. using sub is actually a great initial move for sceptile to use because contemplating between spamming leaf storm or using hp ice on a predicted venusaur is actually a tough decision when i use mix sceptile. this brings me back to the point of easening prediction, so yea.