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Discussion in 'Office of Strategic Influence' started by jigglypuffers42, Dec 12, 2010.

  1. jigglypuffers42

    jigglypuffers42

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    I did this in my first game, but whenever someone new tries their first game, they join not having any idea what priority is and give a random number. We need to add in something somewhere, such as a sticked thread or something of the sort so that we don't have to explain priority to every new player. No one checks the Circus Maximus rule thread which actually has the answer until they've already put someone through answering. This isn't too much of a big deal but i had to explain priority 3 times for Monsters. Any suggestions?
  2. General Spoon

    General Spoon

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    Don't let people who ask join your game.
  3. jigglypuffers42

    jigglypuffers42

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    well, you're right that they should be looking up the rules, but at the same time i dont think we're allowed to deny entry to anyone.
  4. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    I totally agree with this. It's not very clear at first as to what priority is.
  5. Veedrock

    Veedrock

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    The rules aren't a good place to look to begin with since the entire rules thread are guidelines to hosting, something newer players are not going to be interested in. I really don't think it needs an entire thread/announcement dedicated to it, so the rules thread should probably just be rearranged to list priority mechanics first, then refer them to the rules of the specific game they're trying to join before moving to hosting rules.

    Or we could make a "mafia basics" guide to place in the forum (or this one), since a lot of people that WANT to get into don't even have a clue what it is. In fact I think I'm going to write this regardless, even if it just ends up residing in this subforum.

    EDIT: That smog article you showed me pretty much just said what mafia is, hardly how to play it.
  6. UncleSam

    UncleSam

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    I like the idea Veed, although didn't Mekkah already write something for the Smog (one of the early articles...) that details the basics of mafia? With just a few addendums it seems to me that could suffice for Beginners...

    And quite frankly I don't think the priority thing is that big of a problem, it happens once every few games but it's not really that big of a deal. The bigger deal is people joining having no idea how to play.
  7. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    I honestly don't find that happens. Most people that join a mafia game know how to play, they just don't know about some of the specifics...such as priority.
  8. jigglypuffers42

    jigglypuffers42

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    Most new players have a loose--emphasizing loose--grip on what mafia is.
  9. MK Ultra

    MK Ultra BOOGEYMAN
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    Knowing the concepts and basics behind Mafia is one thing - anyone can find those with a few minutes googling, and then know what a lynch is, most of the roles etc., but knowing how to play, that is in terms of tactical play, information management, (especially important for new players) not getting moled, can really only be learnt through actively playing in games, not through reading past games or anything else.
  10. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    Yeah. Honestly, every game will have some people that aren't mafia experts, deal with it If you really hate them host an expert game.
  11. Veedrock

    Veedrock

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    News Flash: there's more to Circus Maximus than Expert and Big games. By encouraging people to just host Expert games you're pretty much excluding yourself from the playerbase.. TIK and dak may not care what happens among the Standard crowd but I do. Standard games are easily the soul of the forum. If you haven't noticed I've pretty much stopped Standard completely bar a few interesting concepts (Metroid, Survivor), and many others have too (you know, those guys you've never seen play but get into Expert/Big games). My exit was due to a large decline in game quality, result of a large influx of newer players all at one time. It was really unappealing to play with a batch of people that were clueless and manipulatable. UncleSam made a few threads about the quality of Standard games for awhile because they WERE garbage, but his suggestions weren't aimed at the actual problem (which was thought to be the number of games). Luckily it's gotten better, but if another wave of new members jump in we could be in the very same predicament again. I genuinely think a guide will help.

    My intention is not to make experts out of first timers, but to make mafia (and the forum) easier to comprehend and more welcoming for newer players. I honestly don't know what grounds you have to say that everyone that comes into mafia will know the basics. My first game (Smash Bros Mafia) was a fucking mess; I had no clue it extended over a period of time. From all I gathered from Thorns' reference materials and such I thought it was some real time game on #fluodome and I had to be there a certain time...which happened to not be posted anywhere! For the first 48 hours I was ridiculously paranoid of fucking up, at which point I learned (to a degree) what the hell was actually going on. (it certainly doesn't help that this was the first basic game in Circus Maximus and I had no lurking material, combined with the fact that Thorns was very misleading but that's besides the point :P)

    The way it is now, new players can make one (potentially huge) mistake and forever be damned to the mafia community, all because they didn't know better. There have already been examples of this, and frankly those users have no way of redeeming themselves anymore. Being new and making a mistake is one thing, but ruining something that likely took weeks to prepare is another story, and this is the bit I fear. I wouldn't want anybody to be damned for something like this (it must feel awful), and I also don't want so much effort to be meaningless all for the sake of somebody learning through mistakes.

    Sorry for hijacking your thread jigglypuffers :x But yeah as mentioned people messing up priority isn't a big deal, but by them doing so you know they're going to be stumbling all game and that is the real issue imo.
  12. vonFiedler

    vonFiedler Visualize It
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    I figure as long as I'm hosting games on Smogon, I'll always run standard games if only because it gives me the most informed idea of who deserves a chance at going to the expert level. That and I have so many ideas for games that its really for the best if I can fit a game into the standard format. If you want standard games to be better, then I'd suggest that good hosts start making more standard games. Incidentally, the quality of standard games has gone up from what it was when I started playing.
  13. Mekkah

    Mekkah
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    I'm not going to make a sticky or anything for what is already in the rule thread. I bolded some parts of the priority rules in there but I'm not going to accommodate for people who just don't read the rules.
  14. Altair

    Altair just who is the coon?

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    It's a free country if these people want to be p3 then they should be p3.

    edit: although there could be some help from our end by making the rules a bit clearer (i.e. Circus Maximus Rules READ BEFORE JOINING ANY OF THE GAMES as the title) and moving the player rules to the top of the rules thread
  15. polelover44

    polelover44

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    ^This. If people don't read the rules and sign up as priority 3 when they're priority 1, let them. Put them down as priority 3. If people really wanted to play, they would read the rules first. If they want to play mafia but they fell reading the rules is "a waste of time", they shouldn't be wasting time playing mafia.
  16. Mekkah

    Mekkah
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    ok i slightly changed the title ~_~
  17. Amelia

    Amelia

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    I agree with Altair though, if someone posts a P3 when they're P1, well, they're P3. That seems like the best solution.
  18. Blue_Tornado

    Blue_Tornado

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    I'm going to reply to some things that were said a few posts earlier.

    Yes, having new players that are unaware of accepted strategies and regularities in Mafia is a big deal. Hell, most of these don't even know the basic rules, but enough of that. Even if it's a small number that is not necessarily frightening, trust me, it's a big deal. It doesn't take more than a few (sometimes even one) new players, even if they do know the rules, to ruin a game completely. Not only does it ruin the game for everyone, it also ruins it for the host, who's devoted hours on thinking, planning and hosting for that one simple game. Trust me, it hurts. A lot. People aren't making a big deal out of game quality for nothing, and it's not surprising why a lot of experienced players don't play 'standard' games. Hell, you're seeing less and less games being hosted recently due to the fear of hours of work being wasted because one careless and slightly clueless player wanted to try his luck before acquiring even a bit of experience. Hosts don't want to host 'Beginner' games because they don't want to deal with this.

    You can't "Deal with it" when the consequences are so critical.
  19. vonFiedler

    vonFiedler Visualize It
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    Honestly I never felt that new players ruined a game for me. Even HFB and Spiffy (who aren't new) didn't ruin the games they were in.
  20. polelover44

    polelover44

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    The problem is, that brings up the age-old question: How do we term somebody "good" or "fit for standard games"? The answer is that there is no answer. There are so many new players who are much better than older players such as hfb. It would be inefficient, with only 3 circus mods, to evaluate the way everybody plays and place them in "categories" based on their playing quality, but I do agree that it is quite annoying to have a truly excellent game ruined by a single player (see Smogon User Mafia if you're lacking in examples).
  21. Blue_Tornado

    Blue_Tornado

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    that example is actually extreme, there are more simple examples that result in one player making his or her faction much harder to win a game

    that alone 'ruins' a game for a lot of players
  22. Objection

    Objection

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    Geez, it seems as though some people don't want new people to play mafia at all ever. But when the great mafia players of today eventually all leave Smogon, what happens to Smogon mafia? Does it just die?

    Note: When I say "some people", I'm not referring specifically to people posting here.
  23. UncleSam

    UncleSam

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    I would like to draw attention to this list, which I will get to later in this post:
    -This
    -This
    -This (my second thread on the matter)
    -This
    -This (my initial thread on the matter)
    -Concluding with this thread itself

    Bear with me here; I am going somewhere.

    OK, I know I said this earlier, but the topic of this thread is, for the most part, an extremely rare "problem" that almost never crops up, and when it does it is easily and simply addressable. It is, however, a sign of a larger problem that I and others have been pointing out for some time, in various guises: the level of player quality in Standard games.

    I propose that someone whose opinion is likely to actually change things (any of the mods, one of the more experienced players like dak or Raikage, anyone who cares really...) make a thread about either why Standard sucks or reasons why Standard is only perceived as sucking but actually is fine (depending on the viewpoint); I feel that my, or most users who frequent this forum making this topic would lead to the issue of it simply being ignored, much as it has been for months now.

    In short, at this time I feel that it is imperative that someone decide, conclusively, whether or not anything will be changed for Standard mafia games, because, as Veedrock pointed out, they really are the lifeblood of this forum. And a LOT of users perceive them as having taken quite a fall from grace recently. Given this, it seems to me that an actual decision has to be made by someone with real authority either to address the topic with changes OR to put it to rest (i.e. say "Standard does NOT suck, here is why, this is the end of this discussion, live with it"). Until then, this subforum will simply be an ever-growing list of small complaints from random users about how aspects of Standard suck, rather than the comprehensive and overall analysis of the system with regard to Standard games that I feel needs to take place.

    The rules as they stand were instituted over six months ago, a period plenty long enough to figure out what aspects of them work and what doesn't (if anything at all). Until then, the list of topics I posted at the beginning of this post will simply be posted and reposted, each as seemingly useless as the next because each fails to address the topic at hand.

    PS: I apologize to anyone who feels I am presuming to much in this post; I don't mean to be either whiny or a relentless complainer, it just seems to me that no decision has been made either way regarding whether or not something has to be done at all (in short, I feel that the first step is in deciding whether or not we have a problem, rather than addressing it). I fully realize that I may be wrong as hell, in which case feel free to point it out to me, I don't speak for everyone and these are simply my own observations of people's reactions lately.

    Will edit in grammar changes later because I am pressed for time now.
  24. Mekkah

    Mekkah
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    The main reason not much action is taken from my side is because just reading everything alone is tl;dr, and then making any proper radical changes takes an age anyway (just look at how long it took me to get "Circus changes" through, or the Circus forum period, or this very forum). It's not that I don't have the authority to make any rogue changes, it's that if I do something, I like to do it well.

    For anyone saying "mafia is dead" or "standard sucks", I'd rather they spend their time making an actual good game or something instead of sideline-booing. Personally, I don't join standard games because I don't enjoy 2v1 in its normal shape, because I often end up dying/getting inspected early, and because I like the social aspect of mafia and getting to talk to friends, and most of those I can find in Expert/Big games.

    So obviously to get me to join your standard game and make it better, it probably should be anonymous and have an appealing concept. I think other good players have similar reasons.
  25. jigglypuffers42

    jigglypuffers42

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    Okay, this thread has been getting off topic, but i don't really care.

    Anway, the question I've been thinking about is what is beginner standard and expert?

    Beginer is 1v2, and, hopefully, 2v1 will be moved to begginer.

    Expert is something that doesn't have the standard rules- it must have to overlying rule, for example everyone is a neutral; you use card games; every has a target etc. etc.

    Standard is in the middle. Normal rules, but there are factions with powers, no matter how creative they are we should try to keep these in standard to raze the awesomeness of it.

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