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Skymin Discussion Thread
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There are more useful things that can switch into earthquake, and other than that... Skymin has almost no safe switch. I quickly dropped it from my team and have only had a problem against it once (due to flinch hax). Seed flare looks good on paper, but being locked into it by a choice item and giving Salamence/Scizor etc. license to setup is asking for trouble. Even on the subseed moveset, it offers horrible coverage.
If I were to reconsider Skymin, I would run timid/leech seed/substitute/earth power/air slash @leftovers.
If I were to reconsider Skymin, I would run timid/leech seed/substitute/earth power/air slash @leftovers.
I've been running Yache with Seed Flare, Air Slash, HP Ice, Earth Power with significant success. Yache stops sharders as long as I can OHKO, Sneasel is at worst a 50/50 ice shard/pursuit game, and CB means I cannot die either way, and can go to a pursuit user/dugtrio on the second shard. If he pursuits, he's sealed his fate.
Zapdos dies if it switches in on Seed Flare, otherwise it's a gamble and you're still better off getting out of there, but HP Ice still comes in handy. I'm not entirely sure if it's worth it over Growth or Substitute though...
Sub/Yache just seems counterintuitive when they can just hit your sub to break your yache though.
Zapdos dies if it switches in on Seed Flare, otherwise it's a gamble and you're still better off getting out of there, but HP Ice still comes in handy. I'm not entirely sure if it's worth it over Growth or Substitute though...
Sub/Yache just seems counterintuitive when they can just hit your sub to break your yache though.
Can people stop equating Seed Flare SpDef drop to a free Nasty Plot? Nasty Plot boosts your special attack by two without fail, whereas Seed Flare has a 68% chance of dropping special defence. Moreover, you can bloody switch if it lowers your special defence you know...carrying two grass resists (grass being a shitty attacking type) is not even that hard.
And it's not beating Blissey without serious flinch hax, leech seed or Modest Specs Seed Flare dropping special defence.
I have found it overrated to be honest, had no problems with Bronzor and Blissey (stupid offensive Suicunes, Zapdos etc) and a Scarfmence in waiting.
And it's not beating Blissey without serious flinch hax, leech seed or Modest Specs Seed Flare dropping special defence.
I have found it overrated to be honest, had no problems with Bronzor and Blissey (stupid offensive Suicunes, Zapdos etc) and a Scarfmence in waiting.
I was thinking the exact same thing. Seed Flare really is over hyped and if anything is holding back Skymin's potential. Grass already has shitty coverage and the omnipresent Heatran causes problems for Submin that lack Earth Power (which surprisingly is a lot due to everyone using Seed Flare). Seed Flare finds use in hitting bulky grounds/waters for SE damage. Though a lot of those things don't have business switching into Submin as they usually have high HP meaning Submin can easily stall with Leech Seed/Sub/Air Slash.
Also I have been seeing less and less Skymin on shoddy. Maybe the hype is dying down after all. Skymin performs well, there is no doubt about that. However it just doesn't perform well enough to make it qualify as an Uber. This is all coming from what I have seen so far. Sure there is probably still potential in Skymin and maybe there will be some set broken enough to make it Uber. However, that seems really unlikely and one must remember that not every Pokemon has a Yache Chomp set equivalent waiting to be discovered.
There's a 38% chance of that scenario happening, and Skymin can't really switch in and out that easily, with a weakness to SR
Ok, and you're also completely screwed if during 1 of those 3 attacks, Blissey just so happens to Ice Beam you, or Thunder Wave you.
You're also depending on the following odds:
68% -2 Special Defense drop from Seed Flare
57% Air Slash Flinch
57% Air Slash Flinch #2
When you multiply these odds together, you get 22%.
In other words, there is a mere 22% chance of your scenario happening at all, meaning that 78% of the time, Blissey will be able to stop Shaymin cold.
Also, how do you only need 1 flinch? If you don't get 2 consecutive flinches after the Special Defense drop, you will either get Ice Beamed or Thunder Waved during that turn, and will therefore lose your Skymin or have it be useless.
Blissey dies after the second Air Slash, so you don't need to consider the 60% flinch there (unless I misunderstood), besides, 100 - 22 = 78
The Blissey that carry 80 HP/252 Def/176 SDef with a Calm nature (the standard has HP and SpA switched sometimes) are hardly even touched by Seed Flare when they switch into it though. It does 22.35% - 26.38% if Skymin has a Life Orb, and 252 SpA EVs. Even with the -2 SDef drop, Air Slash is NOT going to be killing it in 2 hits after that. It only does 27.87% - 32.79% after a drop even with Life Orb and such. This is not even going to come close to killing it in 2 hits especially when considering Leftovers recovery. Without Life Orb, it's even harder to manage this. After a drop, Air Slash only does a pitiful 21.46% - 25.19%.
Yeah, so considering the flinch rate of the second hit is still very important.
Why is this all about Blissey? Surely the myriad grass resists and x4 resists are just as (if not more) relevent. Gyro ball Bronzong slaps any choice Shaymin silly for a start, and does well against all other versions (just have something else you can juggle switches with). As I mentioned in my previous post, seed flare is a liability. Without scarf, suddenly a whole bunch of things are faster (or will be faster after one turn), and without specs, the threat is largely neutered.
Yache berry works on dragons because ice attacks are by far the most common OHKO. This does not follow for Skymin because it dies to many many attacks, especially after stealth rock; your opponent may not switch specifically to something with ice beam for example. I am sure it might bring anecdotal success, but by and large, yache is surely a waste.
Flinch is the only thing about it that worries me.
The bottom line is; it is easier to switch into Skymin than for Skymin to switch in, and that makes all the difference.
Yache berry works on dragons because ice attacks are by far the most common OHKO. This does not follow for Skymin because it dies to many many attacks, especially after stealth rock; your opponent may not switch specifically to something with ice beam for example. I am sure it might bring anecdotal success, but by and large, yache is surely a waste.
Flinch is the only thing about it that worries me.
The bottom line is; it is easier to switch into Skymin than for Skymin to switch in, and that makes all the difference.
the 60 percent flinch seals the fucking deal.
Yeah, Brave Crobat pretty much shits all over any grass pokemon.
I recognize the fact that it is still an incredibly powerful move, and that flinchax is also a little ridiculous with a 57% chance to flinch (counting 95% accuracy :P ). But people have to realize that the -2 sp. def raise is NOT always happening...granted it happens a lot, but it's hard to make calculations based on something that has less chance of happening than D/P hypnosis...and I don't know about you, but I found it hard to depend on hypnosis at times. :/
Actually, .85 (accuracy of Seed Flare) * .80 (chance of -2 SPD) is 68% I believe. That's 8% more than the accuracy of Hypnosis, since Hypnosis' accuracy is only 60% in Platinum, if I'm not wrong.
68% is 17/25 attacks, roughly. So for every 25 Seed Flares that are used, 17 will hit-and-lower-special-defense. That's not a bad number.
I said D/P Hypnosis...which =70% >_>