Resource SM LC Viability Rankings v2

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#51
The only advantage I can see Evio Clamperl having that Evio Omanyte does not is that it doesn't get destroyed by random HP Grass moves but that really is it.
See what Simbo said:

However, the weakness to fighting and ground is pretty huge for omanyte imo. Firstly, it prevents set up against the most commonly used mon in lc in mienfoo.
236 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (20, 20, 20, 20, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)
Bulky foo is pretty common rn but even so
0 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
After rocks, omanyte is dead or has a high chance to be dead. Evio clamperl comfortably sets up on the no1 most used mon in lc, which is already great but being able to set up on every fighting type in lc barring iron fist timburr and gunk is something evio clamperl can boast but not omanyte.
Considering how common scarf foo + timburr fightspam teams are, clamperl's ability to (barring max rolls) take a regen scarffoo hjk, set up, then take the iron fist mach at -1 is super solid.
The weakness to ground results in omanyte being unable to set up on drilbur, mudbray and diglett. Clamperl reliably sets up on first two and can potentially set up on dig, depending on set.
The most important point here is the Fighting weakness. Being unable to sweep simply because the opponent has a Timburr or Croagunk is very troublesome.



Evio Clamperl misses a lot of crucial +2 KOs that Omanyte gets such as Mienfoo, Foongus, Grimer-A, etc.
+2 200+ SpA Omanyte Surf vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Clamperl Surf vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In my experience almost all Omanyte run Surf because, requiring quite a lot of support, it tends to be the primary wincon of its team, and so the consistency that Surf has over Hydro Pump is more valuable. Neither Omanyte nor Clamperl can OHKO slow Mienfoo with a +2 Surf. Admittedly though, Omanyte can OHKO slow Mienfoo after Stealth Rock with Hydro Pump, and Omanyte can OHKO the occasional fast Mienfoo with Surf, while Clamperl can do neither.

Unlike Omanyte, Clamperl cannot OHKO Foongus with a +2 Ice Beam, however, it can after Stealth Rock, so it's not a very big issue.
+2 248 SpA Clamperl Ice Beam vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 22-26 (88 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

As for Alolan Grimer, Omanyte has a 75% chance to OHKO 12 Special Defense Alolan Grimer with Surf only when Stealth Rock is on the field. That's very circumstancial as many Alolan Grimer run 14 Special Defense. You cannot rely on Surf Omanyte to OHKO Alolan Grimer because of the presence of the more specially defensive set, and so you need to weaken it before setting up anyway, at which point Clamperl would probably also KO. However, you are correct in that Hydro Pump Omanyte has a 75% chance to OHKO 14 Special Defense Omanyte after Stealth Rock while Clamperl doesn't, although, as I said previously, most Omanyte run Surf, so I don't think this is very significant.

Furthermore, all three of these Pokemon that you mentioned can have their Eviolites removed very easily, with Mienfoo and Alolan Grimer resisting Knock Off and Foongus checking Fighting-types. For these reasons I think that the slightly lower Special Attack of Clamperl isn't quite as big of a deal as you think. There are very few Pokemon that are OHKOed by Omanyte but not Clamperl that are not easily hit by Knock Off.



Also Clamperl doesn't set up consistently; it does the opposite in fact, because of how it has no secondary typing and its Defense stat isn't that great, especially compared to other SS sweepers.
Shell Smash Omanyte's secondary typing hurts it overall. The Fighting weakness is terrible and as Simbo pointed out, its Flying resistance is not important:

You mentioned omanytes rock typing providing a nice resistance to flying types but, considering most flying types have ways to either flat out ohko omanyte or get hefty chip massively reduces its set up opportunities on the flying types it's supposed to resist. I made a quick list comparing omanyte and clamperl setting up ability on the common and viable flying types in the tier and, as shown by the list, even with omanytes flying resist, evio clamperl still sets up more consistently against the flying types.

Vullaby:

Both clamperl and omanyte can set up on physical vullaby sets. They take the exact same amount of damage from ko so they set up equally well on physical vullaby.
252 Atk Vullaby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 7-9 (35 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9)
Clamperl takes more from BB but it still sets up comfortably on vull and its less susceptible to prio if evio is not knocked. The only time omanyte really comes out on phys vull vs clamperl is if it sets up on scarf vull locked into bb.
252 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)

Omanyte cannot set up on special vull cause:
240+ SpA Vullaby Hidden Power Grass vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
However, as highlighted in my previous post, clamperl easily sets up on special vull and can even set up on +2 vull at full.

Against vullaby, evio clamperl is far more consistent as an SS sweeper, setting up on more sets comfortably.

Doduo:

Scarf dod beats both omanyte and clamperl, since it outspeeds and revenges.

Bj dod beats omanyte if sub. Sub on the SS then:
236 Atk Doduo Jump Kick vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22)
236 Atk Doduo Quick Attack vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 3-3 (14.2 - 14.2%) -- guaranteed 7HKO
Possible damage amounts: (3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3)
It also beats clamperl too.

Non sub bj dod doesn't beat either omanyte or clamperl. Both can set up on it.
Clamperl:
236 Atk Doduo Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 10-13 (50 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
236 Atk Doduo Quick Attack vs. -1 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 6-7 (30 - 35%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7)
Omanyte:
236 Atk Doduo Jump Kick vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (12, 12, 12, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 16)
236 Atk Doduo Quick Attack vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 3-3 (14.2 - 14.2%) -- guaranteed 7HKO
Possible damage amounts: (3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3)
Assuming the most likely rolls occur, omanyte ends up with 1hp more after set up and dead dod, so they set up pretty equally against this set.

Both mons get bopped by lo dod, neither can set up on it.

Against dod, they set up equally well against one set, get bopped by the other two. Again, flying resist isn't particularly useful when compared to evio clamperl.

Rufflet:

Omanyte is likely to die to superpower without rocks and guaranteed death after rocks so you can't set up on any non-scarf set.
252 Atk Hustle Rufflet Superpower vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24)
Clamperl takes any one hit from rufflet, unless its z move. Therefore, you set up on any non-z move set or lo (idk if lo is a set, never seen it personally)
252 Atk Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 15-18 (75 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
Regarding the most common scarf set, omanyte admittedly happily sets up on rufflet locked into bb or return or u-turn and takes little, while clamperl takes a lot of damage. However, since rufflet has access to u-turn, opponents can prevent omanyte smashing by nabbing kills on weakened mons with u-turn to prevent set up or clicking u-turn on forced switchins. I think omanyte overall sets up better vs rufflet but the fact that clamperl also can do this is great for it imo.

Taillow:

The most common mixed lo set bops omanyte with hp grass.
196 SpA Life Orb Taillow Hidden Power Grass vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 21-26 (100 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 26)
Clamperl takes any hit so can set up on it.
196 SpA Life Orb Taillow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clamperl: 13-17 (65 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)
0 Atk Life Orb Taillow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)

The physical facade set isn't common at all. Taillow in general isn't a flying type you often see, but if you do face off against it, omanyte can't set up on it, clamperl can.

Pikipek:

Neither set up on non-scarf due to bullet seed. Regarding scarf, omanyte sets up better on scarf sets, since it takes far less from return and bb. Clamperl takes any hit from pikipek barring bs relatively well but omanyte sets up better against the scarf set. Similar to rufflet, pikipek has u-turn to prevent being set up bait.
236 Atk Pikipek Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)

Wingull:

This is the only flying type where omanyte has a distinct advantage over clamperl. Clamperl takes a lot from lo hurricane.
236 SpA Life Orb Wingull Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clamperl: 13-17 (65 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)
Clamperl almost guaranteed dies to SSSS after rocks.
236 SpA Wingull Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clamperl: 16-21 (80 - 105%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)

Omanyte takes far less from hurricane and SSSS so omanyte sets up far more easily on wingull.

Archen:

Special archen is rare but hp grass bops omanyte.
Regarding the physical offensive set, clamperl sets up against it
180 Atk Archen Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 10-13 (50 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
Omanyte takes more damage from eq.
180 Atk Archen Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (12, 12, 12, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 16)
Both omanyte and clamperl take the exact same amount from head smash so there's no distinguishing them there.
180 Atk Archen Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 15-18 (75 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
Overall, I think clamperl has a slight edge over omanyte just cause archen can be the rare hp grass with spa investment.


To summarise that list, even though evio clamperl doesn't resist flying, it sets up more consistently against most flying types and barring a few exceptions, takes less or a similar amount of damage as omanyte in order to set up. The only times omanyte has an advantage is against wingull, scarf piki not locked into bs, scarf rufflet not locked into superpower and scarf vull. However, all four mons above carry u-turn, so they can prevent being set up fodder by nabbing a kill with u-turn or killing a sack which doesn't die to hazards with u-turn

You say Clamperl's Defense stat "isn't great, especially when compared to other SS sweepers." Firstly, in general Clamperl's Defense stat of 85 is great, being the 24th highest Defense stat in LC. And more importantly, its Defense is fine compared to other Shell Smash users. It runs almost exactly the same bulk as Omanyte - the only difference is that Omanyte has 1 additional HP. Shellder is admittedly 2 points more bulky in Defense, but once again, Simbo has already explained why Eviolite Clamperl is not completely outclassed by Shellder:

When compared to shellder, the niches that clamperl provides are not huge but shellder is A for a reason. I highlighted a few advantages in my previous post about clamperl but to reiterate:

Evio clamperl takes special attacks better than shellder due to 3 more spdef points so can set up on stuff like lo staryu tbolt, non-eball lo abra, volt switch chinchou, +2 vull and probs some other stuff. It also doesn't fear scald burn.
Evio clamperl avoids any form of wa 50/50s. The most notable one is staryu and wa onix but kabuto and omanyte can take +2 icicle spear with wa and proceed to revenge shellder. Ice shard on shellder negates these 50/50s but then shellder has issues with mag and mudbray.
Evio clamperl ohkos common bj mons at +2 straight or after rocks (barring ferro) so clamperl does not fear random bj mons like shellder does.
Evio clamperl is not affected by intimidate.
With shell armour and 100% accurate moves, clamperl is far less likely to get haxed. Crit can ruin a shellder sweep and rock blast missing is annoying but clamperl avoids that.


While I don't think Eviolite Clamperl seems quite as good as Simbo is making it out to be, it does appear to have a somewhat notable niche. However, I'm not sure whether this warrants a rise to B- or not - I'm leaning towards no.

Also it seems that C+ needs some cleaning up because Salandit and Pumpkaboo-Small are certainly much better than Bulbasaur and Riolu.
 
#53

C- -> Unranked
Nosepass just suffers to many top tier mons who are super effective against him like + It's only viable set according to smogon(BJuice sturdy,Twave V switch,Stealth rock and rock blast) is totally forgotten because there are more viable pokes with the same ability who can do the same thing but better,like onix or dwebble,plus I actually never seen someone using this as serious,being it on Ladder or on an official tournament,while also having a badly speed doesn't help him against rapid spinners in general that can easily KO hit after the hazards are taken off,like staryu for example
 
#54

Unranked -- > C-
I've used Cyndaquil extensively on my teams and it has been influential against all tiers of opponents on the leaderboard ladder at one point or another. In summary what makes it great is its ability to hit extremely hard, both in full health but also in low health. Have a pokemon that's dangerous for your team? More often than not Cyndaquil can come out on top -- and if the opponent switches out, Cyndaquil is massively underrated by the amount of damage it can do to certain pokemon that replace it.

Takes some devotion to get the hang of it, but Cyndaquil can pay off in dividends when one puts in the effort.

Preferred Item: Choice Scarf // Preferred Ability: Blaze

Move set:
1) Eruption
2) Flamethrower or Fire Blast
3) Hidden Power Water
4) Burn Out

Move Summary:
Eruption: Cyndaquil is mostly known for Eruption by anyone who has either faced it or is looking to use it in there teams. It's base power is 150 which is extremely helpful and doesn't have to wait 2 turns to perform or that you're locked into it. Eruption can 1 shot a decent amount of Pokemon, and furthermore can easily wipe out a lot of opponents on switch-ins by 2 shotting them. If the opponent is not running Eviolite, Cyndaquil is perfect to send it to its grave. The major cause for flack is that obviously it won't be able to sustain max HP for very long, especially with stealth rock being very common in the beginning of battles.

Flamethrower or Fire Blast: Personally I use flamethrower because of the 100% accuracy even though it lacks as much power as Fire Blast. This is because flamethrower's main use is when you're down to 1/3 of your health. Blaze is a great ability (not enough fire types to consider flash fire) and due to Cyndaquil's ability to survive mach punches or vacuum waves to get into this range, using Flamethrower can take out those pesky priority opponents. As an example in a lot of person experiences vs Timburr, Flamethrower can take 50%+ of his health. Cyndaquil should not be automatically disregarded due to Eruption being removed. Flamethrower can also help finish off games against 2 damaged opponents as you'll outspeed them.

Hidden Power Water: KO's Onix in 1 shot if he is for some reason not using sturdy. If he is using sturdy, you can use stealth rock, spikes, or have a slower pokemon U-Turn into Cyndaquil. It won't KO other fire types but it should be able to 2 shot / 3 shot them; although I don't suggest using Cyndaquil unless you can take down the current fire-type opponent in one shot. It's better used elsewhere before sustaining damage.

Burn Out: Burn Out is an awesome move to have when Cyndaquil is stuck in the range where it does not possess full health, or it hasn't reached blaze yet. Burn Out does 130 base damage, with its unconvenient drawback being you may only use it once while your pokemon remains in the field of battle. On scarf teams, Burn Out should be used to quickly KO a weakened opponent and sub out. Or, depending on the situation, Burning Out, sustaining damage, and subbing out as you're either 1) now in the blaze range or 2) will be in the blaze range after subbing in and sustaining damage from stealth rock. In end-game scenarios, the scarf speed + Burn Out can deal you a win.

Replays: I had a ton but I don't think I have access to them anymore due to them being removed (?)

==Cyndaquil vs select top viable pokemon==
(There are more examples and obviously Cyndaquil has major weaknesses to some like Carvanha, Shellder, etc -- this is why C- is what I'm asking for; he can also kill in 1/2 shots a lot more that I'm not mentioning)

Ferrosseed, Foongus, and Gastly (assuming no choice scarf or focus sash) are automatic goners if your opponent has no other option but to keep them in. If they swap out, unless it's a rock/water type (omanyte, kabuto, etc), you'll get your values worth out of it. Vullaby presents a problem though if it still has an Eviolite and can roost.

Abra: Unless it's Life Orb, my Cyndaquils have survived Abra's psychic attack when Cyndaquil full health. If it's a 1v1 late in the game, flamethrower + flamethrower will finish it off and that's a major plus. Eruption (full health) and Eruption (blaze) also does the job.

Staryu in a lot of my experiences can be 2 shotted by Cyndaquil assuming it is life-orb or just doesn't have Eviolite at full health. A lot of leaderboard ladder opponents underestimate this. Eruption will take off more than 50% of Staryu's health, and since you outpseed Staryu, you finish off the pokemon in your next hit assuming no sub out. If it has an Eviolite though, you will need to swap out Cyndaquil.

Pawniard: Will KO Pawniard and survive a sucker-punch which will either bring you into the blaze range or pretty close to it. I'd advise keeping Cyndaquil healthy though unless you do not need him after this.

Magnemite: If it doesn't have full HP, it's gone. But like any sturdy pokemon, if it doesn't you'll take a lot of damage. Unsure whether or not they KO full-health Cyndaquils.

Mienfoo, Timburr: You want to make sure they have taken some damage before eliminating them in 1 shot. Beware of Mienfoo's fake out as it renders Eruption useless. If Timburr is afraid of taking Eruption damage, they will mach punch so you have the option to use Burn Out to eliminate it. On a switch in flamethrower & then another flamethrower *should* take him out I believe assuming he uses mach punch and not drain punch.

==Really fast to close==
-Cyndaquil works great with bulky pokemon who can take a hit when you deliver a strong blow, but then need to swap out. I suggest Pumpkaboo or Spritzee since they can heal. Pumpakboo is great for wil-o-wisp if your opponent was a ground type and wants to sub out.

-Cyndaquil does really nice damage to ground type pokemon and will not be resisted unless they are rock.

===
This is my first time every writing one of these so I expect criticism and I am sure I missed a lot of arguing points (both against and for). At points in this I may have made Cyndaquil out to be a lot better than it is, so remember I am only asking for it to be ranked C-. I remember a time when Cyndaquil was claimed to be useless by the former viability rankings, but I think whoever used it either didn't set up a team it could succeed with (I do not use sunny day teams either, so everything aforementioned is done without sunny day in play) or misjudged it.

Extremely sorry if this was too long of a post. I'll do my best to condense in the future. I also apologize for providing no mathematics.

Thanks for consideration.
 
#55

Unranked -- > C-
I've used Cyndaquil extensively on my teams and it has been influential against all tiers of opponents on the leaderboard ladder at one point or another. In summary what makes it great is its ability to hit extremely hard, both in full health but also in low health. Have a pokemon that's dangerous for your team? More often than not Cyndaquil can come out on top -- and if the opponent switches out, Cyndaquil is massively underrated by the amount of damage it can do to certain pokemon that replace it.

Takes some devotion to get the hang of it, but Cyndaquil can pay off in dividends when one puts in the effort.

Preferred Item: Choice Scarf // Preferred Ability: Blaze

Move set:
1) Eruption
2) Flamethrower or Fire Blast
3) Hidden Power Water
4) Burn Out

Move Summary:
Eruption: Cyndaquil is mostly known for Eruption by anyone who has either faced it or is looking to use it in there teams. It's base power is 150 which is extremely helpful and doesn't have to wait 2 turns to perform or that you're locked into it. Eruption can 1 shot a decent amount of Pokemon, and furthermore can easily wipe out a lot of opponents on switch-ins by 2 shotting them. If the opponent is not running Eviolite, Cyndaquil is perfect to send it to its grave. The major cause for flack is that obviously it won't be able to sustain max HP for very long, especially with stealth rock being very common in the beginning of battles.

Flamethrower or Fire Blast: Personally I use flamethrower because of the 100% accuracy even though it lacks as much power as Fire Blast. This is because flamethrower's main use is when you're down to 1/3 of your health. Blaze is a great ability (not enough fire types to consider flash fire) and due to Cyndaquil's ability to survive mach punches or vacuum waves to get into this range, using Flamethrower can take out those pesky priority opponents. As an example in a lot of person experiences vs Timburr, Flamethrower can take 50%+ of his health. Cyndaquil should not be automatically disregarded due to Eruption being removed. Flamethrower can also help finish off games against 2 damaged opponents as you'll outspeed them.

Hidden Power Water: KO's Onix in 1 shot if he is for some reason not using sturdy. If he is using sturdy, you can use stealth rock, spikes, or have a slower pokemon U-Turn into Cyndaquil. It won't KO other fire types but it should be able to 2 shot / 3 shot them; although I don't suggest using Cyndaquil unless you can take down the current fire-type opponent in one shot. It's better used elsewhere before sustaining damage.

Burn Out: Burn Out is an awesome move to have when Cyndaquil is stuck in the range where it does not possess full health, or it hasn't reached blaze yet. Burn Out does 130 base damage, with its unconvenient drawback being you may only use it once while your pokemon remains in the field of battle. On scarf teams, Burn Out should be used to quickly KO a weakened opponent and sub out. Or, depending on the situation, Burning Out, sustaining damage, and subbing out as you're either 1) now in the blaze range or 2) will be in the blaze range after subbing in and sustaining damage from stealth rock. In end-game scenarios, the scarf speed + Burn Out can deal you a win.

Replays: I had a ton but I don't think I have access to them anymore due to them being removed (?)

==Cyndaquil vs select top viable pokemon==
(There are more examples and obviously Cyndaquil has major weaknesses to some like Carvanha, Shellder, etc -- this is why C- is what I'm asking for; he can also kill in 1/2 shots a lot more that I'm not mentioning)

Ferrosseed, Foongus, and Gastly (assuming no choice scarf or focus sash) are automatic goners if your opponent has no other option but to keep them in. If they swap out, unless it's a rock/water type (omanyte, kabuto, etc), you'll get your values worth out of it. Vullaby presents a problem though if it still has an Eviolite and can roost.

Abra: Unless it's Life Orb, my Cyndaquils have survived Abra's psychic attack when Cyndaquil full health. If it's a 1v1 late in the game, flamethrower + flamethrower will finish it off and that's a major plus. Eruption (full health) and Eruption (blaze) also does the job.

Staryu in a lot of my experiences can be 2 shotted by Cyndaquil assuming it is life-orb or just doesn't have Eviolite at full health. A lot of leaderboard ladder opponents underestimate this. Eruption will take off more than 50% of Staryu's health, and since you outpseed Staryu, you finish off the pokemon in your next hit assuming no sub out. If it has an Eviolite though, you will need to swap out Cyndaquil.

Pawniard: Will KO Pawniard and survive a sucker-punch which will either bring you into the blaze range or pretty close to it. I'd advise keeping Cyndaquil healthy though unless you do not need him after this.

Magnemite: If it doesn't have full HP, it's gone. But like any sturdy pokemon, if it doesn't you'll take a lot of damage. Unsure whether or not they KO full-health Cyndaquils.

Mienfoo, Timburr: You want to make sure they have taken some damage before eliminating them in 1 shot. Beware of Mienfoo's fake out as it renders Eruption useless. If Timburr is afraid of taking Eruption damage, they will mach punch so you have the option to use Burn Out to eliminate it. On a switch in flamethrower & then another flamethrower *should* take him out I believe assuming he uses mach punch and not drain punch.

==Really fast to close==
-Cyndaquil works great with bulky pokemon who can take a hit when you deliver a strong blow, but then need to swap out. I suggest Pumpkaboo or Spritzee since they can heal. Pumpakboo is great for wil-o-wisp if your opponent was a ground type and wants to sub out.

-Cyndaquil does really nice damage to ground type pokemon and will not be resisted unless they are rock.

===
This is my first time every writing one of these so I expect criticism and I am sure I missed a lot of arguing points (both against and for). At points in this I may have made Cyndaquil out to be a lot better than it is, so remember I am only asking for it to be ranked C-. I remember a time when Cyndaquil was claimed to be useless by the former viability rankings, but I think whoever used it either didn't set up a team it could succeed with (I do not use sunny day teams either, so everything aforementioned is done without sunny day in play) or misjudged it.

Extremely sorry if this was too long of a post. I'll do my best to condense in the future. I also apologize for providing no mathematics.

Thanks for consideration.
Cyndaquil, like many other unranked pokemon, suffers from "it's usable but it's not good" which is why they're unranked. In this case, the easiest comparison to make between Cyndaquil and ranked Pokemon is Torchic, who is also a very fast Fire-type with limited coverage. The difference of course is that Torchic also support the team through Baton Pass and isn't locked into a move like Cyndaquil is.

One thing that you miss out heavily is that Cyndaquil is incredibly vulnerable to Stealth Rock, which you barely address anywhere, and unlike other stealth rock weak pokemon, Cyndaquil is hurt even more due to Stealth Rock taking away its one selling point in eruption. This is a major downside with Cyndaquil, and a big point in why it shouldn't be ranked.

Meanwhile you also praise Burn Out which is like using Hyper Beam on a pokemon in terms of what it does. Yes, it's a lot of damage but now you've given your opponent a 100% free turn if you get a kill.

And this is the thing about Cyndaquil in general - it gives up a lot of free turns. If you get a kill with HP Water (you should definitely consider HP grass btw - hits not only Onix but also stuff like Omanyte or Kabuto) then your opponent likely gets a free turn unless the rest of their team is weak to Water. It's similar with pretty much every other move - Cyndaquil can certainly deal a lot of damage with Eruption if it's at full HP but if the opponent has an Eviolite pokemon that's even just at moderately high HP they can come in and smack Cyndaquil. Flamethrower or Fire Blast don't have the same downside as Eruption but Cyndaquil isn't really all that strong, only hitting 16 special attack with a positive nature.

Meanwhile your discussion of matchups has some either incorrect information or are obvious things (yes clearly the fire type can KO the steel and grass types along with the frail Gastly). For example, the Abra matchup requires a subpar set, forgoing the HP investment you need to not hit 20 HP for Stealth Rock to put some EVs in Special Defense.

240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Cyndaquil: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Cyndaquil: 16-21 (80 - 105%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (this Cyndaquil has 20 HP)

Similarly you make a very bold statement about Mienfoo and Timburr, assuming that they've taken actually a lot of damage before being able to get the KO and that they play relatively poorly by using moves like Mach Punch instead of Drain Punch.

200+ SpA Cyndaquil Burn Up vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 16-19 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Staryu meanwhile only works vs LO Staryu, with Eviolite Staryu being a guaranteed switchin when you're not running HP Grass like your set does. LO Staryu wouldn't switch in on Cyndaquil either unless your opponent was unaware of Cyndaquil's power and played poorly.

200+ SpA Cyndaquil Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Staryu: 7-9 (36.8 - 47.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

But the main factor against Cyndaquil is that honestly it's not really all that special. Sure, it's got a powerful STAB (if rocks aren't up) and is pretty fast with a Choice Scarf, but something similar can be said for a dozen other potential mediocre choice scarf users who all have their own high powered move, like Cranidos' scarf Head Smash or Rufflet's scarf Brave Bird, who are also significantly easier to fit onto teams. Cyndaquil flat out doesn't do anything nearly interesting or unique enough to justify use on any team that isn't built around it in some way, which is why it should stay unranked.
 
#56
Exeggcute Unranked -> C

Now Exeggcute doesn't have that great of a typing being Grass Psychic type. But I made a special set for Exeggcute that might be useful in battle and stuff like that. So here it is I made for Exeggcute that might make him useful

Exeggcute @ Oran Berry/Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Def / 36 SpA / 236 SpD / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Toxic


So this Exeggcute set is a Physically Defensive set. Now what I did is made Exeggcute Harvest ability useful because whenever I see a person with an Exeggcute a rarely see them with the Harvest ability because those people what the Chlorophyll ability so that Exegcute can go faster. I agree with those people but this can be a better set for Exeggcute. so basically you can first set up substitute then you get out the leech seed so it more damage and then you give them the toxic. And whenever Exeggcute's HP goes down it can eat the Oran berry (Or Sitrus berry whichever one works out for you) which is good because you can't Harvest Berry Juice. And last, of all, I put in Psychic as it's move because he is a good Special Attacker
 
#57
Exeggcute Unranked -> C

Now Exeggcute doesn't have that great of a typing being Grass Psychic type. But I made a special set for Exeggcute that might be useful in battle and stuff like that. So here it is I made for Exeggcute that might make him useful

Exeggcute @ Oran Berry/Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Def / 36 SpA / 236 SpD / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Toxic


So this Exeggcute set is a Physically Defensive set. Now what I did is made Exeggcute Harvest ability useful because whenever I see a person with an Exeggcute a rarely see them with the Harvest ability because those people what the Chlorophyll ability so that Exegcute can go faster. I agree with those people but this can be a better set for Exeggcute. so basically you can first set up substitute then you get out the leech seed so it more damage and then you give them the toxic. And whenever Exeggcute's HP goes down it can eat the Oran berry (Or Sitrus berry whichever one works out for you) which is good because you can't Harvest Berry Juice. And last, of all, I put in Psychic as it's move because he is a good Special Attacker
This is a variation of the standar SubSeed set. Also Sitrus is ass in LC, Oran heals 10 HP constantly which is 30-50% HP, Sitrus heals 25%.)
 
#58
Here to make some nominations

Spritz to A-

Why is it still B+? The only guaranteed Vull counter in the meta. Covet allows it to gain another item and cripple a foe's teammate. With eviolite it blanket checks the entire metagame. Excellent answer to so many threats. Carvanha, Mienfoo, VULLABY, Timburr, Scraggy, Shellder to name a few. Calm Mind is also deadly as it's answer in foongus suddenly becomes much less of one. Can also run a coverage move like hp fire to catch ferroseed off guard or psychic to hit mareanie, foongus, and gastly a little harder. I could see it going all the way to A fairly easily as well. It is an incredibly versatile and blanket check of a pokemon defensively as well as countering many of the most common threats in the metagame that it's just too good to remain in A-.

Kabuto to B+

We've seen Kabuto start to even in usage with Staryu as a spinner on Snake teams and for good reason. Kabuto is the defintion of utility. Stealth Rocks and Rapid Spin along with a bird resist, ability to run Knock Off to cripple a pokemon, Aqua Jet which is not only priority but key priority allowing it to KO LO Torchic after rocks and threatening an ohko on diglett from full making Kabuto a flying resist that potentially does not fear Diglett, along with Rock Slide make this pokemon fulfill so many roles on a team giving players more pokemon to build up an offense or defense on their team. Along with the fact that if need be similar to spritz; this thing is stupid bulky. Eating hits from Hp grasses from Vulls to HJKs from foo this thing's overall bulk is surprising. For the amount of utility it provides a team with it is definetely due for a rise.

Trapinch to B

Similar to Spritzee not sure why this thing is all the way down in C right now but move it up. It's a bulky Diglett pretty self explanatory. Abra+Gastly offensively as a core is terrifying right now and in my opinion just the best offensive core. Both of these pokemon struggle with Grimer-Alola. Trapinch's niche obviously is it can switch hard into Grimer-Alola, tank 2 knock offs assuming you're not 10 speed or you lose the 9 speed tie and trap it and KO it with EQ. This forces mindgame alone that you can play off of. For example if you go Abra on a fighting mon not named scarf Mienfoo. If they switch from Mienfoo they give Abra a free sub which gives you the potential to go hard Trapinch on the Grimer. The thing is LO Abra just doesn't have switch ins so generally they are forced to stay in with Grimer and even if they don't you can replicate the exact same scenario later on in the game with Gastly or Abra again. This niche alone of allowing one of if not the best offensive core in the metagame to run potentially unchecked due to Arena Trap and it's bulk is why Trapinch should move up to B.
I'm also going to provide a recent replay of this happening. Granted this example could have been done with Diglett as well
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7lc-321338

Despite OP's good hp fire spam prep expecting ferro/slowpoke/onix usual Dundies eseque cores, it didn't matter at all. No pokemon in this game mattered for Dundies bar the Abra and the Trapinch. He knew he could easily force in Grimer on Gastly and sack it to trap it with Trapinch given OP's lack of switch ins and Dundies' teamcomp screaming it was scarf not even allowing OP to potentially risk the tie. He went Grimer got trapped. Abra switch in was gone. Dundies won from here bar CM Spritz so he goes hard Trapinch to pressure it. He's either 10 speed or wins 2 ties but regardless as soon as he got 1 EQ off the game was basically over. Unless he was Minimum attack invested Trapinch which it's clear he was not from it taking so much from Grimer shadow sneak and Spritzee Moonblast, then he just continually EQd since it did more than 50% to evio Spritzee guaranteed. Once OP finally was forced to KO it the same result happened and Abra just cleaned as it did. All of this of course is assuming he wasn't just 10 speed which you'd prefer to have Trpainch at regardless not risking Crit chances and poison touch and speed ties all around etc.

In summary this replay shows that with Grimer trapped and the pressure being put on by Spritzee, Trapinch set up Abra to easily clean up late game and given how easily Trapinch sets up Abra (The Strongest LC pokemon in my opinion) to win/have a strong advantage and or Abra+Gastly together to do this is why I believe Trapinch should be moved to B.
 
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#59
Hmm I'm bored and there hasn't been a VR update in a while so I figured I'd just make a list of all the current nominations (which are plentiful) that can serve as a resource. Hopefully this will be helpful to the VR council and others:

Rises
  • Mudbray: B+ to A-
  • Wynaut: B to B+
  • Spritzee: B+ to A-
  • Pawniard: A to A+
  • Pumpkaboo-S: B to B+
  • Salandit: C+ to B-
  • Wimpod: UNR to C-
  • Pikipek: C+ to B-
  • Clamperl: C+ to B- / B
  • Remoraid: C- to C
  • Cyndaquil: UNR to C-
  • Exeggcute: UNR to C
  • Kabuto: B to B+
  • Chespin: UNR to B-

Drops
  • Scraggy: A- to B+
  • Grimer-A: A+ to A
  • Magnemite: A- to B+ / B
  • Nosepass: C- to UNR
  • Zigzagoon: B+ to B
I find the sheer number of rises to drops quite interesting. I might edit in how much opposition each nomination got depending on how lazy I am.

- - - - - - - - - -
Here to make some nominations

Spritz to A-

Why is it still B+? The only guaranteed Vull counter in the meta. Covet allows it to gain another item and cripple a foe's teammate. With eviolite it blanket checks the entire metagame. Excellent answer to so many threats. Carvanha, Mienfoo, VULLABY, Timburr, Scraggy, Shellder to name a few. Calm Mind is also deadly as it's answer in foongus suddenly becomes much less of one. Can also run a coverage move like hp fire to catch ferroseed off guard or psychic to hit mareanie, foongus, and gastly a little harder. I could see it going all the way to A fairly easily as well. It is an incredibly versatile and blanket check of a pokemon defensively as well as countering many of the most common threats in the metagame that it's just too good to remain in A-.

Kabuto to B+

We've seen Kabuto start to even in usage with Staryu as a spinner on Snake teams and for good reason. Kabuto is the defintion of utility. Stealth Rocks and Rapid Spin along with a bird resist, ability to run Knock Off to cripple a pokemon, Aqua Jet which is not only priority but key priority allowing it to KO LO Torchic after rocks and threatening an ohko on diglett from full making Kabuto a flying resist that potentially does not fear Diglett, along with Rock Slide make this pokemon fulfill so many roles on a team giving players more pokemon to build up an offense or defense on their team. Along with the fact that if need be similar to spritz; this thing is stupid bulky. Eating hits from Hp grasses from Vulls to HJKs from foo this thing's overall bulk is surprising. For the amount of utility it provides a team with it is definetely due for a rise.

Trapinch to B

Similar to Spritzee not sure why this thing is all the way down in C right now but move it up. It's a bulky Diglett pretty self explanatory. Abra+Gastly offensively as a core is terrifying right now and in my opinion just the best offensive core. Both of these pokemon struggle with Grimer-Alola. Trapinch's niche obviously is it can switch hard into Grimer-Alola, tank 2 knock offs assuming you're not 10 speed or you lose the 9 speed tie and trap it and KO it with EQ. This forces mindgame alone that you can play off of. For example if you go Abra on a fighting mon not named scarf Mienfoo. If they switch from Mienfoo they give Abra a free sub which gives you the potential to go hard Trapinch on the Grimer. The thing is LO Abra just doesn't have switch ins so generally they are forced to stay in with Grimer and even if they don't you can replicate the exact same scenario later on in the game with Gastly or Abra again. This niche alone of allowing one of if not the best offensive core in the metagame to run potentially unchecked due to Arena Trap and it's bulk is why Trapinch should move up to B.
I'm also going to provide a recent replay of this happening. Granted this example could have been done with Diglett as well
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7lc-321338

Despite OP's good hp fire spam prep expecting ferro/slowpoke/onix usual Dundies eseque cores, it didn't matter at all. No pokemon in this game mattered for Dundies bar the Abra and the Trapinch. He knew he could easily force in Grimer on Gastly and sack it to trap it with Trapinch given OP's lack of switch ins and Dundies' teamcomp screaming it was scarf not even allowing OP to potentially risk the tie. He went Grimer got trapped. Abra switch in was gone. Dundies won from here bar CM Spritz so he goes hard Trapinch to pressure it. He's either 10 speed or wins 2 ties but regardless as soon as he got 1 EQ off the game was basically over. Unless he was Minimum attack invested Trapinch which it's clear he was not from it taking so much from Grimer shadow sneak and Spritzee Moonblast, then he just continually EQd since it did more than 50% to evio Spritzee guaranteed. Once OP finally was forced to KO it the same result happened and Abra just cleaned as it did. All of this of course is assuming he wasn't just 10 speed which you'd prefer to have Trpainch at regardless not risking Crit chances and poison touch and speed ties all around etc.

In summary this replay shows that with Grimer trapped and the pressure being put on by Spritzee, Trapinch set up Abra to easily clean up late game and given how easily Trapinch sets up Abra (The Strongest LC pokemon in my opinion) to win/have a strong advantage and or Abra+Gastly together to do this is why I believe Trapinch should be moved to B.
Totally agree with the Kabuto nom. Kabuto is amazing role compression right now and is seeing use on many competitive teams because of that. Spin + Rocks is a necessity for many offensive teams that can't afford to use two slots up for those. Although I wouldn't mind if it just stayed in B because i could see how some could think B+ is a little high for it.

For the Trapinch nomination, I think B might be a little high for it. I think B- would be a more appropriate fit, considering outside of a few teams, Trapinch usage is still relatively low and hasn't been explored that much. Also, the fact that Diglett outshines Trapinch so much makes it difficult for it to succeed in the meta right now. This is really a fast-paced metagame now with Abra / Mienfoo / Scarfmons running around on every team. Thus, Trapinch doesn't gain as much momentum as Diglett does because after it's trapping is all said and done and can't outspeed and pressure something else. This is what makes Dig > Trapinch so appealing imo. Also Trapinch doesn't get much utility; if you look at Diglett, it gets Memento, Sucker Punch, Stealth Rock, and even Beat Up which can lure Sash Abra, whereas Trapinch doesn't get nearly as much (it doesn't even have Stealth Rock!) So B- might be a bit more fitting for it. I'm not trying to refute any of your points (I've come a long way since June lol) but I just don't see Trapinch akin to the likes of Wynaut, Wingull, and Omantye.

For a nom of my own:

Zigzagoon to B


I think this was a thing during early LC, but I haven't seen this get competitive use at all recently, or at least to the standards of a B+ Pokemon. The amount of team support it requires to be a succesful sweeper is...not great. I feel like Zigzagoon is either hit or miss: if you manage to set up, you'll likely be able to sweep, but in certain matchups you contribute nothing. It's not really a quality I would want in a set-up sweeper. Gastly is a fast mon that can stop Zig's sweep thanks to immunity to Extreme Speed (ZToT Pumpkaboo can do this too) which is pretty potent considering the amount of teams that use it. Steel-types like Pawniard and Ferroseed also put a hard stop to it. The extremely commonplace Sturdy Onix is a pretty good answer to it--so is Sturdy Tirtouga. Bulky Fighting-types which are also ubiquitous make its ability to sweep difficult. And of course, Ponyta, the bane of all set-up sweepers, exists. And it's not a cakewalk to have it set up either, due to its frail nature and lack of a defensive typing. Maybe someone could change my mind with a good defense for it but I'm pretty adamantly in favor of this drop.
 
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Gummy

send typecharts
is a Pre-Contributor
#60
I disagree with Kabuto to B+. Sure, it does a lot on paper, but I've really never seen it put in any work. It has a case of 4mss and I've rarely seen it live long enough to click Rapid Spin. It's like people expect it to 1. set rocks, 2. clear hazards, and 3. be a bird check, but it can really only do one of these per battle because it usually dies after doing one of them, thanks to being weak to common mons like mienfoo, snivy, and dig. it also gets worn down really fast thanks to WA + no recovery, which sucks for a utility mon. it's not trash but i don't think it's anywhere near as good as, say, spritz or even drilbur.
 
#61
NOBODY uses MUCNHLAX????
Munchlax is outclassed by Alola Grimer as a Pursuit trapper, due to its typing, which helps to face Gastly and Abra quite comfortably and take them out. What it makes Munch worse than it is that it's really slow, has a poor physical defense stat and depends on Berry Juice + Recycle to recover itself. Knowing that Fighting-types and Knock Off are really common, this hinders Munchlax to do its functions and it's used on certain teams that need a solid special defensive backbone.

Edit: just in case, agree on Kabuto to B+, despite it may present 4MSS, it is only in some situations, as the moves it can carry can vary on the team it is in.
 
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Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#62
to B-
After watching the most insane LC match I've ever seen, Chespin the GOAT seems to prevail as an actually usable Pokemon. In this replay (which can be found here), Chespin is able to make a great counter to Onix, especially thanks to the fire Bullet Proof ability. Also shown in the replay, thanks to it's incredible defensive capabilities, Chespin was able to take hits from Staryu and stall out an LO Taillow. Besides things found through out this replay, Chespin is also good at checking Foongus, as well as checking Gastly, since both Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb cannot touch Chespin, thanks to Bullet Proof. This overlooked Pokemon also deals with Diglett pretty well, but that one is a given.

Unfortunately, I could not get the set used in that replay from lord lax, but I do believe that this Pokemon has major potential in the LC tier, even though it's fairly weak to Grimer and Vullaby.
 
#63
to B-
After watching the most insane LC match I've ever seen, Chespin the GOAT seems to prevail as an actually usable Pokemon. In this replay (which can be found here), Chespin is able to make a great counter to Onix, especially thanks to the fire Bullet Proof ability. Also shown in the replay, thanks to it's incredible defensive capabilities, Chespin was able to take hits from Staryu and stall out an LO Taillow. Besides things found through out this replay, Chespin is also good at checking Foongus, as well as checking Gastly, since both Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb cannot touch Chespin, thanks to Bullet Proof. This overlooked Pokemon also deals with Diglett pretty well, but that one is a given.

Unfortunately, I could not get the set used in that replay from lord lax, but I do believe that this Pokemon has major potential in the LC tier, even though it's fairly weak to Grimer and Vullaby.
I don't like Lax's spread, nor his choice to run fully physical Chespin, but yeah I think Chespin has potential, and should be at least considered for a small raise (Although not entirely sure rn how much I am in favor of this or not, what even is it's current rank?) Ait just checked this shit is outrageous why the fuck isn't Chespin ranked, I was uncertain because I thought it was C+ but WTF it has several niches that other grass types can't even dream of, such as actually being a fucking Gastly switch-in (Without SR up). I'll add more details to this post at sometime not 2am.
 

Drew

formerly LitsYaBoi1337
is a Contributor to Smogon
#64
to B-
After watching the most insane LC match I've ever seen, Chespin the GOAT seems to prevail as an actually usable Pokemon. In this replay (which can be found here), Chespin is able to make a great counter to Onix, especially thanks to the fire Bullet Proof ability. Also shown in the replay, thanks to it's incredible defensive capabilities, Chespin was able to take hits from Staryu and stall out an LO Taillow. Besides things found through out this replay, Chespin is also good at checking Foongus, as well as checking Gastly, since both Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb cannot touch Chespin, thanks to Bullet Proof. This overlooked Pokemon also deals with Diglett pretty well, but that one is a given.

Unfortunately, I could not get the set used in that replay from lord lax, but I do believe that this Pokemon has major potential in the LC tier, even though it's fairly weak to Grimer and Vullaby.
Ya I really don't think this nom holds any weight. In that game a Synthesis Foongus would have done just as well, if not better, as would have Pumpkaboo-Super (maybe). Noming off of one game isn't encouraged since it can't fully show off what one mon can do especially when that replay doesn't show it off as a Pokemon but rather as a bulky Grass-type. I guess a nom could be rightfully made with Mambo and Heysup's past work but personally I don't think now is the time.
 
#65
to B-
After watching the most insane LC match I've ever seen, Chespin the GOAT seems to prevail as an actually usable Pokemon. In this replay (which can be found here), Chespin is able to make a great counter to Onix, especially thanks to the fire Bullet Proof ability. Also shown in the replay, thanks to it's incredible defensive capabilities, Chespin was able to take hits from Staryu and stall out an LO Taillow. Besides things found through out this replay, Chespin is also good at checking Foongus, as well as checking Gastly, since both Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb cannot touch Chespin, thanks to Bullet Proof. This overlooked Pokemon also deals with Diglett pretty well, but that one is a given.

Unfortunately, I could not get the set used in that replay from lord lax, but I do believe that this Pokemon has major potential in the LC tier, even though it's fairly weak to Grimer and Vullaby.
Past few weeks i've been giving this mon a try as it is a very underlooked at mon. It has been preforming very well for me doing it's job at checking grounds like onix and also being able to wall stuff like gastly and croagunk is fantastic and being able to set spikes up in the process and recover up any lost health with synth is super neat. I'm really glad this mon is starting to see some light in the tier because it's certainly not bad and does it's job well. Bulletproof is a fantastic ability for this mon and being able to hit back with z headbutt against opposition gunk and gastly is also nice. I feel like if there is anything that hinders this mon it's that it might not be as consistent as say a Foongus but 1 thing it does have against foongus is spikes which I love. I've also been comfortable bringing this mon to 1 of my seasonal games as I don't consider it a slouch.

Here's a prime example of Chespin doing what it does best. (sry dunds) http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-642218465. Setting up the early spike vs a team with no hazard removal allowed me to put pressure right away and gave me freedom to play a bit more passively also Chespin being able to stay in the game for the whole duration shows that the mon is certainly annoying to gain the upper hand on.

This mon deserves a rise.
 
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#66
Didn't think I'd actually have to give this thing my attention, but here goes...

Chespin is currently unranked. This is for a reason. The pokemon has an extremely specific niche that does not classify it under any ranking above C-. It's extremely specific niche is bulletproof grass type spike setter. On our previous iteration of the viab rankings, this would be a solid D rank mon. That's great and all but this pokemon, simply put, is dead weight on way too many teams to be considered for most, if not all serious teams, and it's job can almost always be done by something better.

For those who are saying it counters Onix; I mean, I guess, but can you name literally one grass type that doesn't? Countering Onix isn't that big of a deal; he is not a significant offensive metagame threat. You can't set Spikes on it or heal because it has Taunt. All you really do is block Rock Blast. It also could explode, after taunting, which leaves you with no momentum whatsoever, because you're Chespin.

For those who are saying it counters Gastly; no it does not. The current best Gastly set at the current moment is WillOHex. Chespin does not block either of those moves with Bulletproof. Even with most Life Orb sets, you lose to whatever fourth move Gastly has, because you aren't doing anything back to him. Like, at all. Grass STAB/Drain Punch does absolutely nothing to it. Sure, you could set spikes, but you're also losing a fuckton of momentum on this mon for something that might not even be that valuable in the long run. The prevalence of spinners and dedicated hazard clearers is still too important to really consider this as an acceptable trade on most teams. Zen Headbutt is an option, I suppose, but after a Burn you just pop it's Berry Juice and it proceeds to remove you. And if you're stuck with ZHB over Drain Punch, you're in an even bigger hole, because then you lose to Steels; the thing that Chespin is far more likely to face in lategame, where it will be dead weight.

To go over the replay that was dropped, Chespin was completely dead weight that game. It ate a Fake Out and Knock Off, which can be done by literally every single pokemon in the metagame that isn't named Abra. It then proceeded to set a spike, which did absolutely nothing the entire game. It did not force the opposition to play any differently, it did not affect any rolls. That pokemon could have literally been anything. And just because I have the time, I'm going to compare Chespin to the mons in the ranks that were suggested for it. I threw them all into Random.org, hit the button a bunch of times, and here's what I came up with.

B-
Snover
Houndour
Cottonee
Magby

C+
Clamperl
Salandit
Venipede
Meowth

C
Axew
Sandile
Trapinch
Sandshrew

C-
Fletchling
Stunky
Cubchoo
Mantyke

Snover: Dedicated Hail Setter, Scarf, Evio and LO sets all viable, Shoots off STAB Blizzards and can wall EQs = Better than Chespin.
Houndour: Priority monster, trapper(?) STAB Fire Blasts in a Fire-weak Metagame, Mixed Wallbreaker, can burn with WoW = Way better than Chespin
Cottonee: lol priority, how the mighty have fallen. Can hit Fighting Types, stops sweepers, hazard setters, provides way more support than any mon in the metagame = Way Better than Chespin
Magby: Belly Drum Sweeper, and before you say: BUT COCO, CHESPIN LEARNS BELLY DRUM! Magby has 19 Speed, Good offensive typing and a priority move, none of which Chespin has = Way better than Chespin

Clamperl: why's he in C+. Dedicated sweeper, requires a lot of support I guess, but can still wallbreak without it. = Way better than Chespin.
Salandit: As much as I hated on this thing, it has a solid place in the metagame with a cool 18 speed and unique stabs, but it's walled by Chespin so it can't be that good. = Better than Chespin
Venipede: Oh look, a spike setter that beats fighting types, abra, and has a really good ability. But this one doesn't lose momentum and can set both kinds of Spikes...Hmmm = Better than Chespin
Meowth: I know it's blacklisted I'm sorry. You can read like this entire thread to why it's C+, and how it does more than Chespin. = Way better than Chespin

Axew: Dragon Type is a plus, cool setup sweeper that sets up on really dumb things like Chespin. Still either kinda slow or kinda weak, and kinda frail, depending on which of those 3 you want to buff. = Still better than Chespin
Sandile: Super underrated, Great STAB, cool coverage, Moxie = Better than Chespin
Trapinch: Can trap. = Way better than Chespin
Sandshrew: Provides utility as a bulky spinner. Can Swords Dance or set rocks. = Better than Chespin

Fletchling: lol priority, how the mighty have fallen. Can hit Fighting Types, stops sweepers, beats AbraGast, and has a base 110 prio flying stab. = Better than Chespin
Stunky = 2nd best defogger, can explode/memento for momentum, has priority and traps = Better than Chespin
Cubchoo = Hail Sweeper, wallbreaker, good offensive typing and solid coverage = Still better than Chespin, I guess
Mantyke = Rain Sweeper, tanks like everything special ever. = Still better than Chespin, I guess


I'm sure you can debate this list or whatever, but this is a basic outline of what is needed to be considered niche enough to be on the viability rankings. Note that these pokemon have possible usage outside of their one specific job, and none of them instantly lose you momentum. Chespin does neither of these things, and as a result, should stay unranked.
 
#67
Didn't think I'd actually have to give this thing my attention, but here goes...

Chespin is currently unranked. This is for a reason. The pokemon has an extremely specific niche that does not classify it under any ranking above C-. It's extremely specific niche is bulletproof grass type spike setter. On our previous iteration of the viab rankings, this would be a solid D rank mon. That's great and all but this pokemon, simply put, is dead weight on way too many teams to be considered for most, if not all serious teams, and it's job can almost always be done by something better.

For those who are saying it counters Onix; I mean, I guess, but can you name literally one grass type that doesn't? Countering Onix isn't that big of a deal; he is not a significant offensive metagame threat. You can't set Spikes on it or heal because it has Taunt. All you really do is block Rock Blast. It also could explode, after taunting, which leaves you with no momentum whatsoever, because you're Chespin.

For those who are saying it counters Gastly; no it does not. The current best Gastly set at the current moment is WillOHex. Chespin does not block either of those moves with Bulletproof. Even with most Life Orb sets, you lose to whatever fourth move Gastly has, because you aren't doing anything back to him. Like, at all. Grass STAB/Drain Punch does absolutely nothing to it. Sure, you could set spikes, but you're also losing a fuckton of momentum on this mon for something that might not even be that valuable in the long run. The prevalence of spinners and dedicated hazard clearers is still too important to really consider this as an acceptable trade on most teams. Zen Headbutt is an option, I suppose, but after a Burn you just pop it's Berry Juice and it proceeds to remove you. And if you're stuck with ZHB over Drain Punch, you're in an even bigger hole, because then you lose to Steels; the thing that Chespin is far more likely to face in lategame, where it will be dead weight.

To go over the replay that was dropped, Chespin was completely dead weight that game. It ate a Fake Out and Knock Off, which can be done by literally every single pokemon in the metagame that isn't named Abra. It then proceeded to set a spike, which did absolutely nothing the entire game. It did not force the opposition to play any differently, it did not affect any rolls. That pokemon could have literally been anything. And just because I have the time, I'm going to compare Chespin to the mons in the ranks that were suggested for it. I threw them all into Random.org, hit the button a bunch of times, and here's what I came up with.

B-
Snover
Houndour
Cottonee
Magby

C+
Clamperl
Salandit
Venipede
Meowth

C
Axew
Sandile
Trapinch
Sandshrew

C-
Fletchling
Stunky
Cubchoo
Mantyke

Snover: Dedicated Hail Setter, Scarf, Evio and LO sets all viable, Shoots off STAB Blizzards and can wall EQs = Better than Chespin.
Houndour: Priority monster, trapper(?) STAB Fire Blasts in a Fire-weak Metagame, Mixed Wallbreaker, can burn with WoW = Way better than Chespin
Cottonee: lol priority, how the mighty have fallen. Can hit Fighting Types, stops sweepers, hazard setters, provides way more support than any mon in the metagame = Way Better than Chespin
Magby: Belly Drum Sweeper, and before you say: BUT COCO, CHESPIN LEARNS BELLY DRUM! Magby has 19 Speed, Good offensive typing and a priority move, none of which Chespin has = Way better than Chespin

Clamperl: why's he in C+. Dedicated sweeper, requires a lot of support I guess, but can still wallbreak without it. = Way better than Chespin.
Salandit: As much as I hated on this thing, it has a solid place in the metagame with a cool 18 speed and unique stabs, but it's walled by Chespin so it can't be that good. = Better than Chespin
Venipede: Oh look, a spike setter that beats fighting types, abra, and has a really good ability. But this one doesn't lose momentum and can set both kinds of Spikes...Hmmm = Better than Chespin
Meowth: I know it's blacklisted I'm sorry. You can read like this entire thread to why it's C+, and how it does more than Chespin. = Way better than Chespin

Axew: Dragon Type is a plus, cool setup sweeper that sets up on really dumb things like Chespin. Still either kinda slow or kinda weak, and kinda frail, depending on which of those 3 you want to buff. = Still better than Chespin
Sandile: Super underrated, Great STAB, cool coverage, Moxie = Better than Chespin
Trapinch: Can trap. = Way better than Chespin
Sandshrew: Provides utility as a bulky spinner. Can Swords Dance or set rocks. = Better than Chespin

Fletchling: lol priority, how the mighty have fallen. Can hit Fighting Types, stops sweepers, beats AbraGast, and has a base 110 prio flying stab. = Better than Chespin
Stunky = 2nd best defogger, can explode/memento for momentum, has priority and traps = Better than Chespin
Cubchoo = Hail Sweeper, wallbreaker, good offensive typing and solid coverage = Still better than Chespin, I guess
Mantyke = Rain Sweeper, tanks like everything special ever. = Still better than Chespin, I guess


I'm sure you can debate this list or whatever, but this is a basic outline of what is needed to be considered niche enough to be on the viability rankings. Note that these pokemon have possible usage outside of their one specific job, and none of them instantly lose you momentum. Chespin does neither of these things, and as a result, should stay unranked.
The spike did nothing? The spike was what won me the game. It put snub in hjk range which ultimately won me the game, if that spike was not there the snub ate and just knocked me out. Sure the spike could of been set up by other mons like dwebble and ferro and what not, but do they check anything I mentioned up above?, no. I could of picked any grass type to use on that team and the 1 thing I chose was chespin because it actually did a better job than them all. To see this mon unranked is beyond me, even looking at lax's replay where it was able to beat a taillow 1v1 is insane. Bulletproof is what makes this mon, without it just loses to everything it normally switches into and could then be rendered useless. I won't argue on the fact that Chespin did not do a whole bunch in my replay but I think you are really under looking how key that spike was that game.

Also I don't know when the last time you actually played this tier was but since when is hex willo gastly the best set in sumo? I have been laddering and participating in seasonals for a while now and not once have I seen a single hex gastly.

Some more reasoning as to why Chespin was ultimately chosen in that team:
1. Foongus did not accomplish anything for me. While already having gunk I didnt need this mon as one of the prime reasons you opt for foon is a solid fight check, which guk can handle

2. I did not go for snivy since compared to Chespin it's quite frail and I wanted a more structured mon in this position, 5 hit rock blast can hurt snivy on the switch and if a tie is lost, Snivy is lost. Also Knock off does exist.. If I let let's say Foongus take a knock which it almost does every game, oh look! There goes my onix answer, Chespin covers that problem just fine.

You also say onix isn't a pokemon that teams shouldn't worry about but man if you're going to run a solid team you can't leave gaps, Onix practically wins if Chespin is not in this slot... And if I know they're weak armour than heck ill just go kabuto and claim my own rocks tyvm.

3. And the thing I have mentioned a million times now but hey, Chespin actually gives me spikes which can change games. Paired up with Kabuto I have hazard stacking capabilities and access to spin with role compression.

I also don't get why being a specific mon is a problem? Snivy does the same shit in every game and this mon is in what A rank? I have chosen this mon SPECIFICALLY do what I want it do, it's not going to shine every game I know that but if I have ANY other mon in this position the team will crumble. It's versatility really shouldn't stop this mon from rising, it's really not a problem?

Another thing you mentioned in your post was that having access to drain punch proposes as very underwhelming when using it vs Steels. I think drain punch chespin is simply a waste anyway and shouldn't even be questioned Zen headbutt or otherwise Super Fang is always the better fit. There are only 3 good steels in the tier that I can think of at the top of my head them being Magnemite, Ferroseed and Pawniard. Chespin just sets 3 layers on pawn and ferro which is beneficial in any scenario. Not being able to touch them otherwise isn't at all a problem especially when I have got Gunk Mienfoo and Weak armour Vull in the back all for pawn and ferro, I know we are not talking about the team here but I don't see this as an issue and would render your point you made invalid.

I've got much more to say, I would on keep on going because I truly and thoroughly believe this mon deserves a rise.
 
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#68
If chespin does rise, it 100% should not rise any higher than C-. As a defensive Pokémon, its worse than Foongus and Pumpkaboo-XL almost always, and as a spikes setter, its worse than Ferroseed. The only thing it has over Ferro is active recovery via Synthesis. When you run spikes, you lose off on a coverage move (typically rock slide or drain punch) meaning that you can't do anything to flying/fires or steels, the former of which is really bad because they'll typically wreck chespin. Chespin is also ridiculously slow, and it has overall poor stats to the point of you needing to decide whether you want to be bulky and have little to no attack or be offensive and have pretty mediocre defenses.
That being said, Chespin does do a pretty good job of countering Foongus and various Ground-types (but most Grass-types do this already), along with stuff like Staryu, Croagunk, and Gastly (situationally). I don't know if that's enough to be worth a rise or not. I'd probably go into more detail if I wasn't so tired/busy right now, but I may do that if this is still being discussed later.
 
#69
If chespin does rise, it 100% should not rise any higher than C-. As a defensive Pokémon, its worse than Foongus and Pumpkaboo-XL almost always, and as a spikes setter, its worse than Ferroseed. The only thing it has over Ferro is active recovery via Synthesis. When you run spikes, you lose off on a coverage move (typically rock slide or drain punch) meaning that you can't do anything to flying/fires or steels, the former of which is really bad because they'll typically wreck chespin. Chespin is also ridiculously slow, and it has overall poor stats to the point of you needing to decide whether you want to be bulky and have little to no attack or be offensive and have pretty mediocre defenses.
That being said, Chespin does do a pretty good job of countering Foongus and various Ground-types (but most Grass-types do this already), along with stuff like Staryu, Croagunk, and Gastly (situationally). I don't know if that's enough to be worth a rise or not. I'd probably go into more detail if I wasn't so tired/busy right now, but I may do that if this is still being discussed later.
It can't beat everything in the tier, pair it up with mareanie and there you have the best fire type check in the game, these two compliment eachother fantastically as mareanie can take on ice fire coverage for chespin and vice versa with grounds. Mareanie even further enhances the hazard stacking capabilities with Chespin. Having Onix and or Kabuto in the back helps out Chespin and any other grass type mons that struggle with mons like Vullaby, Rufflet you name it. Once again these mons give you rocks completing in what I would consider a nice three way core including Chespin.

Yeah it's slow but aren't all supposed walls meant to be slow?, when i'm using Chespin, i'm really not looking for speed, i'm looking for bulk, recovery and anything extra is always a bonus, like it's ability and hazard stacking capabilities.
 
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#70
The thing is, most of the grass types can hamper these switchins in someway (sleep/burn/paralysis for foongus/pumpkaboo/ferroseed, hitting it hard so it cant switch in repeatedly for snivy), whereas chespin can't really do anything useful to them w/o you running a coverage move (which means you get rid of one of the moves chespin really ought to have). Mareanie being a good teammate applies to all of them as well and I don't really see how that makes chespin any better relative to the other grass-types of LC.
What i'm pointing out by it being slow is that it has very very little damage output once a check is being switched in, so you have to switch out to something to take a strong hit (and if they predict you switching and hit the switchin with a coverage move, you're out of luck). Chespin being unable to do anything offensively also means that they dont have to worry if they overpredict and you keep Chespin in. Chespin has a small niche due to role compression wrt being a tanky grass-type spiker with active recovery, a la stunky when compared to grimer-a or fomantis when compared to snivy. I think that what you need to differentiate is the role Chespin can play compared to all the other options available. I'm not saying Chespin should never be used whatsoever, but i'm saying that there is almost always a better option.
 
#71
The thing is, most of the grass types can hamper these switchins in someway (sleep/burn/paralysis for foongus/pumpkaboo/ferroseed, hitting it hard so it cant switch in repeatedly for snivy), whereas chespin can't really do anything useful to them w/o you running a coverage move (which means you get rid of one of the moves chespin really ought to have). Mareanie being a good teammate applies to all of them as well and I don't really see how that makes chespin any better relative to the other grass-types of LC.
What i'm pointing out by it being slow is that it has very very little damage output once a check is being switched in, so you have to switch out to something to take a strong hit (and if they predict you switching and hit the switchin with a coverage move, you're out of luck). Chespin being unable to do anything offensively also means that they dont have to worry if they overpredict and you keep Chespin in. Chespin has a small niche due to role compression wrt being a tanky grass-type spiker with active recovery, a la stunky when compared to grimer-a or fomantis when compared to snivy. I think that what you need to differentiate is the role Chespin can play compared to all the other options available. I'm not saying Chespin should never be used whatsoever, but i'm saying that there is almost always a better option.
In my opinion you could even argue that Chespin and Ferro have only 1 thing different from each other (excluding their type). I'm going to compare Ferroseed as I think it has a similar role to Chespin in the sense that they're both walls, they're both grass and they set spikes. The one thing that differentiates the two in my opinion is that ferro can actually set rocks and Knock while Chespin can reliably check some of ferros weaknesses and reliably recover.

I think Chespin is more of a specific mon rather than a more global mon like ferro and foon but like i've said before I think what this mon is actually capable of is really underlooked at. I don't expect Chespin to do anyting offensively either, like I don't want Ferroseed or Foongus to do anything offenively either. This mons main priority is to soak up the weaknesses that the team has and in the process being able to reliably set up spikes. I don't really get why the main focus here is it's movepool and it's offensive capabilities, it's a wall for a reason. I'm starting to get the feeling I maybe repeating myself but I can't stress myself enough on this.

When you're looking at something like ferroseed you're inviting more things like gunk in due to it's typing, sure a mareanie core would cover that problem too but Chespin's niche allows it to stack up even more on the spot without having to do it later on in the game when it may be too late. I think also sludge wave gunk should be more common nowadays if you do run into a Chespin but that's asides the point.

I already mentioned that I specifically wanted chespin in that team becuase it did the job of any other grass type in the tier the best covering up ALL the problems I would of had if choosing agsinst it.

In my opinion if a mon like ferroseed (which I love to death) is that high, I am lost for words as to why Chespin doesn't even have a rank.
 
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#72
Ferroseed can counter all the things Chespin does (except non sludge wave croagunk) along with a lot more (I can expand if you want, but off the top of my head I'd say every shell smasher, Abra, and Chinchou). It can also cripple switchins with Twave, remove items with Knock Off, or set up multiple hazards (SR and spikes).
I'm not disagreeing with you on Chespin performing as a wall, where i'm saying it fails it that it can't actually do anything to its switchins, while other tanky grass-types can. Chespin working on your team is fine, but I don't see how it working on a specific team is relevant to its viability overall (unless you're trying to say that it has a place on some teams, which I do agree with you on). I'm also not disagreeing with a rise to C-, but I am saying that it absolutely should not be going any higher than that.
 
#73
Ferroseed can counter all the things Chespin does (except non sludge wave croagunk) along with a lot more (I can expand if you want, but off the top of my head I'd say every shell smasher, Abra, and Chinchou). It can also cripple switchins with Twave, remove items with Knock Off, or set up multiple hazards (SR and spikes).
I'm not disagreeing with you on Chespin performing as a wall, where i'm saying it fails it that it can't actually do anything to its switchins, while other tanky grass-types can. Chespin working on your team is fine, but I don't see how it working on a specific team is relevant to its viability overall (unless you're trying to say that it has a place on some teams, which I do agree with you on). I'm also not disagreeing with a rise to C-, but I am saying that it absolutely should not be going any higher than that.
I guess ferro can wall some stuff chespin can't and im not sure why I blanked out on that but I did. Atleast you agree with a rise and that's the main thing, but when i'm looking at the C- list, im not seeing a single mon that I would use in that list to a high standard game. I'm not typically the one for messing about in tour games bringing unconventional stuff and memes or what not but Chespin outclasses everything in that list and deserves higher.
 
#74
The thing Chespin is most comparable to in C- is Stunky; Grimer-A is overall a much better pursuit trapper than Stunky, but Stunky has access to hazard removal, giving it a niche over Grimer-A. Similarly, i'd compare Chespin to Ferroseed, where Chespin does a similar job but is a significant amount worse than Ferroseed; however, it does have a niche of a grass-type spiker with active recovery, which may be enough for C-. It 100% should not go higher than C- because of how it is outclassed in almost every single way by the other grass-types of the tier (and especially Ferroseed).
 
#75
The thing Chespin is most comparable to in C- is Stunky; Grimer-A is overall a much better pursuit trapper than Stunky, but Stunky has access to hazard removal, giving it a niche over Grimer-A. Similarly, i'd compare Chespin to Ferroseed, where Chespin does a similar job but is a significant amount worse than Ferroseed; however, it does have a niche of a grass-type spiker with active recovery, which may be enough for C-. It 100% should not go higher than C- because of how it is outclassed in almost every single way by the other grass-types of the tier (and especially Ferroseed).
Sure you could say the mon get's outclassed but that doesn't make Chespin automatically a bad mon just because there happens to be a mon that can do the job better. It has a nice niche and can do all the obvious stuff aswell. For this mon to be in the same list as something like Remoraid or a Dewpider is quite silly. Those mons are just completely outclassed in every dimension where as the point im trying to get at is that Chespin actually has a lot of stuff going for it and does not deserve to be at the bottom. Even if mons like Ferroseed do exist.

Also like to mention that this is the only PURE defensive grass type, something it has against Ferroseed and Foongus which is another significant reason as to why I have been enjoying using this mon. Allowing it to be able to check common grounds from start to finish which a knocked off Foongus or Ferroseed can't accomplish.
 
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