Metagame SM Monotype Suspect #2: Magearna

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#26
Yea i was not sure where to suggest this, and i may get alot hate for saying this

But cant we bring type-specific bans back? I never understood why it was removed because it was considered a complex ban

Because if you really think about it, Its not that complex, i mean for example: aegislash is deemed too powerful for steel teams for its defensive and offensive properties, but its just fine on ghost
So you just ban it on just on the type it breaks, youre not nerfing the pokemon, youre not banning a move or an ability to make it more balanced, wheres the complex in banning it on the type it breaks? I hope the council at least considers bringing it back sometime in the future?

My two cents about the magearna suspect: honestly i think magearna breaks steel, on fairy its just fine as the types it pressures types (like dark, water and dragons) already lose to magearnas fairys teammates anyways, magearna just exploits this weakness further just like how scizor similarly does to ice and rock.

On steel however, magearna singlehandedly flips over matchups and eases it alot (dark vs steel for example). It offers a ton of support with its many different sets, ranging from double dance, calm mind to trick room all with different z crystals and items to work with. Thats where i think its broken
 
#27
Alright, I'm going to adress a few points being frequently drawn up to defend magearna. firstly the ORAS scissor correlation, This example does no apply to dark and dragon in the same way scissor did to ice, rock,and fairy the reason being scisor has a 4 times weakness, to fire and a mediocre Spd stat allowing strong water types to power through with stab surfs/scalds in rain, however for ice rock and fairy fire moves are scarce. This, to a degree makes sense because a snowman shouldn't be spitting fire at you in the same way neither should a non molten rock, or a fairy. however for all 3 types seizor had a hard counter. ice counters scissor mega and not with curse lapras, and will-o-wisp rotom-Freeze, because both can live the bullet punch and decrease scizor offensive offensive capability by either raising the users defense or lowering the opposition's attack. Rock could easily counter scissor with magcargo who could tank and burn scissor, or mega aggron who heavily tanks scissor, and fairy has clef airy, wigglytuff, and azumarill two of which learn flame thrower and fire blast and the other being neutral to the bullet punch, This is not the case for magearna, with the tools to set up in various ways via shift gear calm mind, and overall great stats and its stupidly op ability soul heart. ice's only counter is sacrificing avalugg essentally by getting off a mirror coat or a weakness policy eq only after being brought down to study which won't work if it v-switches out, or if rocks spikes, toxic spikes, priority non super effective moves, which makes it completely uncountable for ice due to t-bolt countering lapras and walrein and due to sol heart gives all 5 types only on chance to counter it due to soul heart making one ko enough to sweep all 5 of these types with no resistence.

excuse the grammar but all in all magearna must go for the good of the meta
 
#28
Alright, I'm going to adress a few points being frequently drawn up to defend magearna. firstly the ORAS scissor correlation, This example does no apply to dark and dragon in the same way scissor did to ice, rock,and fairy.

The reason being scisor has a 4 times weakness, to fire and a mediocre Spd stat allowing strong water types to power through with stab surfs/scalds in rain, however for ice rock and fairy fire moves are scarce. This, to a degree makes sense because a snowman shouldn't be spitting fire at you in the same way neither should a non molten rock, or a fairy.

However for all 3 types seizor had a hard counter. ice counters scissor mega and not with curse lapras, and will-o-wisp rotom-Freeze, because both can live the bullet punch and decrease scizor offensive offensive capability by either raising the users defense or lowering the opposition's attack. Rock could easily counter scissor with magcargo who could tank and burn scissor, or mega aggron who heavily tanks scissor, and fairy has clef airy, wigglytuff, and azumarill two of which learn flame thrower and fire blast and the other being neutral to the bullet punch.
I'm not going to address your overall argument, but the bolded statement is aggressively wrong.

A counter is a pokemon who can manually switch into X Pokemon and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Literally none of the sets you listed for Ice, Rock and Fairy were counters, or even checks, for Scizor(-Mega), except for Mega Aggron (who can't be used on rock this gen). These types did have responses; Fairy had Babiri Togekiss or Clefable, Rock had WP Rhypherior / Mega Aggron, and Ice had Specs Lapras. However, all of these pokemon are easily managed with support and none of them are counters.

To say Ice, Rock, and Fairy "could easily counter" Scizor (-M) is blatantly false.
 
#29
The difference of scizor vs ice and mag vs ice and rock is that ice and rock have checks to scizor unlike magearna and although both types are inherently flawed I've never felt so helpless vs a specific mon while playing(and that's counting megagross and megacham). I won't argue that without magearna ice and rock would suddenly become viable as that would be unrelated to discussion of magearna on the meta currently(also I seriously doubt that they would). But it doesn't change the fact that magearna solos those types along with dark,dragon,fighting,flying(if boltbeam) and makes the meta even more top heavy than usual. It can also be tailored depending on the team to skew the matchup vs a few more types like ground, water, and electric(basically anything that doesn't resist fairy).You can't compare the threat of scizor or something like megagross to magearna because magearna has almost no checks vs the types mentioned before(with the usual tr/shift set). I would compare it to last gen talonflame vs grass/fighting or kartana vs ground/water. Of course we could just write off all of these types as bad and continue playing in a meta with only half of the types being usable with all of the mag spam.

Note: Don't bring up suboptimal muk sets like a decent player would even stay in vs muk with the team support mag has.

Tldr: It's to easy to solo with mag vs half of the meta(albeit the bottom half) even without counting the ridiculous team support that makes fairy the best and steel a great type.

Note 2: Not arguing how viable those types will be without mag(as that would be a theory and not reliavant to how broken mag is in the current meta) but I am arguing that magearna makes matchups that shouldn't be 80/20 magearna team incredibly skewed towards mag and gives another click x matchup to those types.
i always find it funny how people think alolan muk stops magearna on dark teams.
0 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 33-39 (9 - 10.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Muk-Alola Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 51-60 (14 - 16.4%) -- possible 7HKO
0 Atk Muk-Alola Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 27-32 (7.4 - 8.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Muk-Alola Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 100-118 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
out of these moves, only fire blast does any relevant damage, and that is extremely rare on alolan muk. also, for people questioning why does muk have 0 attack EVs, i am simply using regular assault vest set. in return, magearna is doing double damage with flash cannon/dazzling gleam
 

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#30
Yea i was not sure where to suggest this, and i may get alot hate for saying this

But cant we bring type-specific bans back? I never understood why it was removed because it was considered a complex ban

Because if you really think about it, Its not that complex, i mean for example: aegislash is deemed too powerful for steel teams for its defensive and offensive properties, but its just fine on ghost
So you just ban it on just on the type it breaks, youre not nerfing the pokemon, youre not banning a move or an ability to make it more balanced, wheres the complex in banning it on the type it breaks? I hope the council at least considers bringing it back sometime in the future?

My two cents about the magearna suspect: honestly i think magearna breaks steel, on fairy its just fine as the types it pressures types (like dark, water and dragons) already lose to magearnas fairys teammates anyways, magearna just exploits this weakness further just like how scizor similarly does to ice and rock.

On steel however, magearna singlehandedly flips over matchups and eases it alot (dark vs steel for example). It offers a ton of support with its many different sets, ranging from double dance, calm mind to trick room all with different z crystals and items to work with. Thats where i think its broken
Type bans get brought up every single suspect and the answer is always no. It is a last-resort option that may only be argued in very extreme circumstances. Remember not even Aegislash or Hoopa-U were deemed worth a type ban. That should tell you just how difficult it would be to successfully argue for its use. If the council believes it should be an option, we will say so. Otherwise, you should assume it isn't an option. If I haven't made it clear enough, it isn't an option for Magearna. Even if type bans were the norm, Magearna would be suspected on both types either way, so I don't understand why it's being mentioned in this suspect to begin with.

i always find it funny how people think alolan muk stops magearna on dark teams.
0 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 33-39 (9 - 10.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Muk-Alola Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 51-60 (14 - 16.4%) -- possible 7HKO
0 Atk Muk-Alola Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 27-32 (7.4 - 8.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Muk-Alola Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 100-118 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
out of these moves, only fire blast does any relevant damage, and that is extremely rare on alolan muk. also, for people questioning why does muk have 0 attack EVs, i am simply using regular assault vest set. in return, magearna is doing double damage with flash cannon/dazzling gleam
I've mentioned this before, but dumping calcs needlessly doesn't help the discussion at all.

First, not every Magearna is 252 HP, Shift Gear and Choice Specs sets are 0 HP, and Alolan Muk 3HKOes them. Second, Fire Blast is used on every Alolan Muk, so no, it isn't "extremely rare". Quite the opposite in fact. Third, Magearna isn't going to be doing "double damage with flash cannon/dazzling gleam". Why is Dazzling Gleam even in this discussion anyway? I'm confused how you can put out 4 calcs (only one of which is even at all relevant) but fail to calc for your most important and notably outright factually false claim.

Whether or not Magearna is outright KOed by Alolan Muk or not, it is checked and forced out. That's all that Alolan Muk needs to do because there's a very important question to ask: how often is Magearna switching in anyway? We've been seeing a lot more Earthquake Tyranitar specifically targeting it for a guaranteed 2HKO on non-bulky and a roll to 2HKO TR, so Magearna can't switch into it (Choice Specs and even Twinkle Tackle can't OHKO Tyranitar anyway). Greninja has Hidden Power Fire and Hydro Pump, both of which 2HKO non-Assault Vest Magearna. Bisharp and Hydreigon both threaten to KO non-bulky Magearna sets, as Bisharp's Iron Head is just barely not a guaranteed 2HKO and Choice Specs Hydreigon's Fire Blast is a guaranteed OHKO. Mega Sableye carries Protect, which means you're easily losing one Fleur Cannon PP unless you arbitrarily decide to risk giving Alolan Muk a free switch, and when you only have 8 PP and need at least 4 to even hope to KO Alolan Muk let alone actually deal any damage to the rest of the Dark team... That means only Mandibuzz could possibly be a free switch, but then you remember Mandibuzz often carries U-turn and can pivot out of Magearna as it switches in. If Magearna is only coming in on free switches after a KO (or capitalizing on misplays, which is a good thing and skill-related), then Alolan Muk only being able to force Magearna out is actually more than enough! Being able to 3 or 4HKO Magearna is just icing on the cake.

So, let's not get all Doomsday-like on Dark when it comes to Magearna. Yes, Magearna is a huge threat that Dark does have to play intelligently to beat. Smart, actually optimal play means the matchup is absolutely winnable. We want a metagame where you need skill to win. That's ideal. It's not Magearna's fault if your team is suboptimal or if you simply don't know how to play around it properly. That's a skill issue, and the less skilled player is supposed to lose. If Magearna encourages that, then that is absolutely not a reason to ban it. I'm not taking a stance on Magearna yet, but if you want to make a ban argument, this is really not the right way to do it.
 
#31
Type bans get brought up every single suspect and the answer is always no. It is a last-resort option that may only be argued in very extreme circumstances. Remember not even Aegislash or Hoopa-U were deemed worth a type ban. That should tell you just how difficult it would be to successfully argue for its use. If the council believes it should be an option, we will say so. Otherwise, you should assume it isn't an option. If I haven't made it clear enough, it isn't an option for Magearna. Even if type bans were the norm, Magearna would be suspected on both types either way, so I don't understand why it's being mentioned in this suspect to begin with.


I've mentioned this before, but dumping calcs needlessly doesn't help the discussion at all.

First, not every Magearna is 252 HP, Shift Gear and Choice Specs sets are 0 HP, and Alolan Muk 3HKOes them. Second, Fire Blast is used on every Alolan Muk, so no, it isn't "extremely rare". Quite the opposite in fact. Third, Magearna isn't going to be doing "double damage with flash cannon/dazzling gleam". Why is Dazzling Gleam even in this discussion anyway? I'm confused how you can put out 4 calcs (only one of which is even at all relevant) but fail to calc for your most important and notably outright factually false claim.

Whether or not Magearna is outright KOed by Alolan Muk or not, it is checked and forced out. That's all that Alolan Muk needs to do because there's a very important question to ask: how often is Magearna switching in anyway? We've been seeing a lot more Earthquake Tyranitar specifically targeting it for a guaranteed 2HKO on non-bulky and a roll to 2HKO TR, so Magearna can't switch into it (Choice Specs and even Twinkle Tackle can't OHKO Tyranitar anyway). Greninja has Hidden Power Fire and Hydro Pump, both of which 2HKO non-Assault Vest Magearna. Bisharp and Hydreigon both threaten to KO non-bulky Magearna sets, as Bisharp's Iron Head is just barely not a guaranteed 2HKO and Choice Specs Hydreigon's Fire Blast is a guaranteed OHKO. Mega Sableye carries Protect, which means you're easily losing one Fleur Cannon PP unless you arbitrarily decide to risk giving Alolan Muk a free switch, and when you only have 8 PP and need at least 4 to even hope to KO Alolan Muk let alone actually deal any damage to the rest of the Dark team... That means only Mandibuzz could possibly be a free switch, but then you remember Mandibuzz often carries U-turn and can pivot out of Magearna as it switches in. If Magearna is only coming in on free switches after a KO (or capitalizing on misplays, which is a good thing and skill-related), then Alolan Muk only being able to force Magearna out is actually more than enough! Being able to 3 or 4HKO Magearna is just icing on the cake.

So, let's not get all Doomsday-like on Dark when it comes to Magearna. Yes, Magearna is a huge threat that Dark does have to play intelligently to beat. Smart, actually optimal play means the matchup is absolutely winnable. We want a metagame where you need skill to win. That's ideal. It's not Magearna's fault if your team is suboptimal or if you simply don't know how to play around it properly. That's a skill issue, and the less skilled player is supposed to lose. If Magearna encourages that, then that is absolutely not a reason to ban it. I'm not taking a stance on Magearna yet, but if you want to make a ban argument, this is really not the right way to do it.
The problem is not av or specs mag vs dark because of the checks you mentioned. The problem is alolamuk is the only mon switching in to magearna and it's easily widdled down and if you add in soul heart boost as well as speed control in shift gear/tr it's very easy to steamroll dark especially late game. I won't say it's impossible to beat but a competent magearna user easily takes down dark especially with the team support magearna gets
 
#32
I usually do my best to look at things from an archetype standpoint rather than a "this type has nothing for x mon" because most types have different access to different archetypes and a mons affect on a type shouldn't be jumbled together, it should be split into how they affect different archetypes of said types to get an actual balanced lookout on how a mon affects the meta. The monotype meta is composed of several archetypes amongst types themselves, analyzing a monotype as just types alone isn't as healthy imo. And while we are at it, yeah mag does well vs p much every dark build and sometimes it can be personally frustrating to me because I think a lot of dark builds have the potential to be great in a meta without magearna. And even with mag I think there are ways for dark to get around it. Balance dark teams can win that steel matchup without a doubt and even HO dark teams pressure the shit out of any mag set not being TR. But again, I like to break down it's common and most effective sets and compare them to archetypes. In magearna's case as well, I like to look at it's mirror matchups to see if they create any real uncompetitive atmospheres like how hoopa u was in a psy v psy mirror.


So when I think of the offensive archetype in monotype there are of course several different types that can effectively utilize this archetype. I think of psychic, normal, steel, fire, flying, electric, dark, dragon, bug, rock, ice, water, fighting, ground, and fairy. Yes bulky offense counts, which is why u see shit like ice ground even tho mons like avalugg and hippo are commonly seen. The bolded types are the ones I think don't really give a shit about mag. I will also say that the main set giving this archetype a lot of trouble is TR. Given the nature of offense, other sweeping mag sets aren't going to be able to do what they want in more than a turn. Trick room puts marginably more strain on offense as TR sets only take one turn of set up while being able to maximize magearnas HP which is huge. The most controversial build in the list is probably psychic. I think the level of strain it puts on offsneive psychic teams can vary just because of how versatile psychic is even when u break it down into a single archetype. The introduction of bulkier mew sets on offense along with jirachi have helped, but I do still think it puts a certain level of strain on psychic builds and it would be naive to say offensive psychic teams don't care about mag. In regards to the fairy mirror, I think it's a pretty uncompetitive matchup and a lot of times i've seen it in tours it's been who can set up with theirs first or who can para the shit out of their opponents mag and then counter sweep with their own. But looking at the grand scheme of things, mag has the ability to put a significant strain on a good 2/3 of the offensive archetype in monotype give or take imo.


The majority of the monotype meta is offensively oriented but the balance archetype is more than relevant and should be considered when looking at magearnas affect on the meta. I look at balance in monotype and think of psychic, water, steel, flying, poison, ghost, bug, (uncommon but it does exist and is effective enough to be considered) normal, dark, and grass. Magearna's versatility really comes into play when you look at how it affects the balance archetype in the meta. The bolded types are the types I think should handle pretty much any common mag set. Balance psychic builds should ALWAYS be carrying a reliable answer behind jirachi, which is why i have it fully highlighted here rather than in the offensive analysis. Poison is also an interesting type to look at because it beats pretty much every single mag set, but just strait up loses to any double dance set packing a steel move. water, steel and flying are all also pressured by different variations of cm or double dance sets along with poison. You can use that and say "well it cant beat everything since it needs different sets to beat different types," but when I see that it just tells me we have a mon in the metagame who has the abilitiy to pick and choose which balance builds it wants to beat and can be built around accordingly to handle other types with ease. Basically, it has the majority of an archetype by the balls, which I don't like.

stall doesn't deserve to be analyzed because it's dogshit so ye im prolly voting ban but im not 100% sure yet.
 
#33
Upon conclusion of a six-month in-depth analysis of the Pokémon™ self-identified and classified as Magearna, I am regretfully inclined to concur with the consensus; that the aforementioned Pokémon™ requires a tier restriction. My summary follows on the coat tails of approximately five thousand battles through which my vast assortment of fairy teams participated. As of the date December the 6th, I began formulating possible roles and move sets which Magearna could be assigned. Designing both offensive and survivalist formats, I constructed several Choice Scarf Magearna, equipped with each possible combination of Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Aura Sphere, Ice Beam, Hidden Power Fire, Iron Head, Dazzling Gleam, and Flash Cannon. Another, equally kamikaze approach, was to assign the same move selection with Trick Room or Shift Gear. Their items ranged from the cumbersome Rocky Helmet to the discarded Leftovers, even venturing far into the realms of fanciful whimsy from an Air Balloon was retrieved. Each of these seemed to offer strong applications, but it still felt like something was missing. Departing from her Air Balloon ride, I decided to present Magearna with a companion; Reflect/Light Screen Klefki. With this newfound compatriot, her days of dying in earthquakes were over. She was able to survive any ground or fire move, making her the perfect candidate to carry a Weakness Policy, favoring Shift Gear to provide the speed needed to use it to full effect. Although the damage-inducing moves still needed occasional adjustment, it was the perfect sweeper.

This same algorithm was deployed on 29 accounts, each of which reached the 1550-1600 Elo range, usually with 3-5 accounts achieving this within a day. However, such success does not come without ruin to match. For all of its accomplishments, Magearna grew too powerful, exhibiting a type advantage against almost every known Pokémon™ variety. For a reference, see the following chart:

Magearna with Thunderbolt beats: Flying (except for the pioneers of aviation, Thunderus and Landorus), Water (except for that terrible twosome with an allergy to grass, Mega Swampert and Gastrodon)
Magearna with Energy Ball beats: Water (except for the winged wonder of the ocean, Mantine), Ground, Rock
Magearna with Ice Beam beats: Dragon, Flying, Ground, Grass
Magearna with Aura Sphere Beats: Normal (except for the lovable duo of Chansey and Blissey), Dark (except for that mischievous scamp Mega Sableye), Rock, Ice
Magearna with Iron Head or Flash Cannon beats: Rock, Ice, Fairy
Magearna with Dazzling Gleam beats: Dragon, Fighting, Dark
Magearna with Hidden Power Fire beats: Some Grass, Bug

From my testing, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam appear to be two of the three best options, usually with Energy Ball or a Steel move for the third option. To summarize, depending on the rest of the team, these two Pokémon™ combined provide almost assured victory against Poison, Dragon, Fighting, Dark, Water, Flying, Grass, Ice, Rock, Normal, Ground, and other Fairy Teams, as well as a high victory rate against Psychic, Ghost, Bug and Fire, and an almost neutral matchup against Steel and Electric. For that purpose, the burden falls upon my shoulders to support Magearna prohibition.
 
#34
Upon conclusion of a six-month in-depth analysis of the Pokémon™ self-identified and classified as Magearna, I am regretfully inclined to concur with the consensus; that the aforementioned Pokémon™ requires a tier restriction. My summary follows on the coat tails of approximately five thousand battles through which my vast assortment of fairy teams participated. As of the date December the 6th, I began formulating possible roles and move sets which Magearna could be assigned. Designing both offensive and survivalist formats, I constructed several Choice Scarf Magearna, equipped with each possible combination of Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Aura Sphere, Ice Beam, Hidden Power Fire, Iron Head, Dazzling Gleam, and Flash Cannon. Another, equally kamikaze approach, was to assign the same move selection with Trick Room or Shift Gear. Their items ranged from the cumbersome Rocky Helmet to the discarded Leftovers, even venturing far into the realms of fanciful whimsy from an Air Balloon was retrieved. Each of these seemed to offer strong applications, but it still felt like something was missing. Departing from her Air Balloon ride, I decided to present Magearna with a companion; Reflect/Light Screen Klefki. With this newfound compatriot, her days of dying in earthquakes were over. She was able to survive any ground or fire move, making her the perfect candidate to carry a Weakness Policy, favoring Shift Gear to provide the speed needed to use it to full effect. Although the damage-inducing moves still needed occasional adjustment, it was the perfect sweeper.

This same algorithm was deployed on 29 accounts, each of which reached the 1550-1600 Elo range, usually with 3-5 accounts achieving this within a day. However, such success does not come without ruin to match. For all of its accomplishments, Magearna grew too powerful, exhibiting a type advantage against almost every known Pokémon™ variety. For a reference, see the following chart:

Magearna with Thunderbolt beats: Flying (except for the pioneers of aviation, Thunderus and Landorus), Water (except for that terrible twosome with an allergy to grass, Mega Swampert and Gastrodon)
Magearna with Energy Ball beats: Water (except for the winged wonder of the ocean, Mantine), Ground, Rock
Magearna with Ice Beam beats: Dragon, Flying, Ground, Grass
Magearna with Aura Sphere Beats: Normal (except for the lovable duo of Chansey and Blissey), Dark (except for that mischievous scamp Mega Sableye), Rock, Ice
Magearna with Iron Head or Flash Cannon beats: Rock, Ice, Fairy
Magearna with Dazzling Gleam beats: Dragon, Fighting, Dark
Magearna with Hidden Power Fire beats: Some Grass, Bug

From my testing, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam appear to be two of the three best options, usually with Energy Ball or a Steel move for the third option. To summarize, depending on the rest of the team, these two Pokémon™ combined provide almost assured victory against Poison, Dragon, Fighting, Dark, Water, Flying, Grass, Ice, Rock, Normal, Ground, and other Fairy Teams, as well as a high victory rate against Psychic, Ghost, Bug and Fire, and an almost neutral matchup against Steel and Electric. For that purpose, the burden falls upon my shoulders to support Magearna prohibition.
Honestly speaking, this post is just full of mistakes.

1) Energy Ball, HP Fire and especially Iron Head should never be included on any Magearna sets.

Sure an Ice Beam + Energy Ball Magearna will 6-0 Ground teams, but it will also fail to accomplish many of the things this pokemon is so great at accomplishing. To use it's ability to run moves like Energy Ball as an argument on why it should be banned is simply wrong because it has no actual impact on the metagame.
Versatile =/= Viable, it can run those moves but it's only burdensome to Magearna.

2) Ladder experience is not a reliable source.

Laddering up to 1550-1600 is extremely easy, being able to get several accounts up there in a day is more a showcase of how much free time you have than of how dominant Magearna is. It doesn't matter how many accounts you "dominated" the ladder with, it should not have much impact on important metagame decisions. It would be better if you looked on how this Pokemon affected a higher level of playing (for example MPL where Steel and Fairy where very dominant in SM)

3) Magearna + Klefki do not dominate as well as mentioned.
-Poison: Only CM/Double Dance (CM + SG) threaten this type, any other set generally gets dominated.
-Grass: Does not suffer to this nearly as badly as mentioned, CM with flash cannon + aura sphere is needed to beat out the defensive core.
-Normal: Magearna in no way dominates Normal teams, with Chansey managing it and the only set that sorta threatens it (CM) loses to Diggersby.
-Ground: Magearna is really not the issue in this matchup on Fairy teams. On Steel teams, it isn't as huge as a threat unless the player uses the extremely situational cteam set.
-Bug: This type deals fine with Magearna, it's far from pushing the matchup to the edge.
-Psychic: Same as Bug.
-Fire: Straight up doesn't lose to Magearna unless played very badly.

Not saying Magearna is not an amazing Pokemon, but as a person who is still undecided, I would prefer to see better constructed arguments that would actually convince me instead of irrelevant and false "facts".
 
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#35
I would like to reply to some of your arguments and, more importantly, provide explanation on the points I found that were not properly supported or are actually invalid in real play. Again, it is important to note that these insights do not reflect my final say about Magearna:

This same algorithm was deployed on 29 accounts, each of which reached the 1550-1600 Elo range, usually with 3-5 accounts achieving this within a day. However, such success does not come without ruin to match. For all of its accomplishments, Magearna grew too powerful, exhibiting a type advantage against almost every known Pokémon™ variety.
Your personal experience on ladder barely relates to Magearna's infleunce in the metagame, as it does not reflect the way Magearna interacts with other matchups as a whole, or how centralizing it is in the metagame. Providing more objective arguments is a stronger way to support your arguments.

Magearna with Thunderbolt beats: Flying (except for the pioneers of aviation, Thunderus and Landorus), Water (except for that terrible twosome with an allergy to grass, Mega Swampert and Gastrodon)
Magearna with Energy Ball beats: Water (except for the winged wonder of the ocean, Mantine), Ground, Rock
Magearna with Ice Beam beats: Dragon, Flying, Ground, Grass
I am not exactly sure if you are referring to Pokemon or types as a whole, but saying a single move on a set beats entire teams like this is blatantly false. More especifically, I would like to provide a brief explanation on the Ice Beam matchups you posted, and why they do not apply in real play. Before I continue, it is also important to note that Ice Beam sets do not constitute Magearna's most viable spread of attacking moves (Fleur Cannon, Aura Sphere and Thunderbolt is more common and usually more effective in many matchups).

Grass: Magearna is walled by Ferrothorn most of the time, especially if it is running Ice Beam instead of Aura Sphere. It can easily stall Magearna out with the combination of Leech Seed + Protect and even dish some damage to it with Gyro Ball, should it stay in. Mega-Venusaur also has little trouble walling nearly all of its sets, and will procceed to slowly wear it down with Leech Seed and Hidden Power Fire (maybe except for Specs + Flash Cannon, which is not really common in the metagame, and can properly be handled by Ferrothorn regardless). But in short, most Grass teams have zero problems in handling Magearna.

Dragon: I am not going to deny Magearna already beats Dragon rather easily. But it does not need Ice Beam to do it: Fleur Cannon almost always guarantees a kill on most Dragon threats, especially when paired with Fairium-Z, allowing it to use Twinkle Tackle with no drawbacks to its special attack. Ice Beam really does not improve this matchup given it Dragon as a whole is already decimated by Magearna's standard sets.

Flying: Ice Beam is not really that impressive against Flying as it looks. For instance, Zapdos is able to outstall Magearna with Roost (consequently halving Ice Beam's damage in process) and Pressure rather comfortably, as Ice Beam fails to 2HKO it and is actually outsped by it outside of Trick Room:

252+ SpA Magearna Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Zapdos: 176-208 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even though it helps very sightly (as it can KO mons like Landorus or Dragonite without wasting the Z-Move and/or Fleur Cannon), Magearna's standard sets can take care of Flying teams, especially accounting proper team support.

I am not saying Ice Beam sets are bad, but the teams you mentioned have tools to handle this particular set. You also mentioned some other sets (Hidden Power Fire, Dazzling Gleam, and even Iron Head), but I am not going to make an in-depth analysis on those since they are incredibly niche or unviable. I know it is important to account how versatile Magearna is and the wide array of sets it can run, but making bold statements can completely invalidate your arguments should they not be in accordance with real play, or if the interactions with the types (and its archetypes) are not done correctly.

From my testing, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam appear to be two of the three best options, usually with Energy Ball or a Steel move for the third option. To summarize, depending on the rest of the team, these two Pokémon™ combined provide almost assured victory against Poison, Dragon, Fighting, Dark, Water, Flying, Grass, Ice, Rock, Normal, Ground, and other Fairy Teams, as well as a high victory rate against Psychic, Ghost, Bug and Fire, and an almost neutral matchup against Steel and Electric. For that purpose, the burden falls upon my shoulders to support Magearna prohibition.
You have mentioned types that were not in the previous section of your argument. Types like Ghost and Poison did not receive an elaborate explanation of why they are easily beaten by Magearna. For instance, Poison teams are usually only threatened by Magearna's Calm Mind set (as it can leave Toxapex in KO range before it uses Haze), so it is not a type I would include in a ''severely-disadvantaged scenario''. Ghost teams also have adapted ways to handle Magearna, most notably Marowak-Alola (with nearly no switchins on Steel and Fairy) and Jellicent.

In short: Nothing I have said actually concludes my final say about Magearna, but most of your argument in favor of Magearna's ban was poorly supported by examples that are false in the current metagame.
 
#36
Honestly speaking, this post is just full of mistakes.

1) Energy Ball, HP Fire and especially Iron Head should never be included on any Magearna sets.

Sure an Ice Beam + Energy Ball Magearna will 6-0 Ground teams, but it will also fail to accomplish many of the things this pokemon is so great at accomplishing. To use it's ability to run moves like Energy Ball as an argument on why it should be banned is simply wrong because it has no actual impact on the metagame.
Versatile =/= Viable, it can run those moves but it's only burdensome to Magearna.

2) Ladder experience is not a reliable source.

Laddering up to 1550-1600 is extremely easy, being able to get several accounts up there in a day is more a showcase of how much free time you have than of how dominant Magearna is. It doesn't matter how many accounts you "dominated" the ladder with, it should not have much impact on important metagame decisions. It would be better if you looked on how this Pokemon affected a higher level of playing (for example MPL where Steel and Fairy where very dominant in SM)

3) Magearna + Klefki do not dominate as well as mentioned.
-Poison: Only CM/Double Dance (CM + SG) threaten this type, any other set generally gets dominated.
-Grass: Does not suffer to this nearly as badly as mentioned, CM with flash cannon + aura sphere is needed to beat out the defensive core.
-Normal: Magearna in no way dominates Normal teams, with Chansey managing it and the only set that sorta threatens it (CM) loses to Diggersby.
-Ground: Magearna is really not the issue in this matchup on Fairy teams. On Steel teams, it isn't as huge as a threat unless the player uses the extremely situational cteam set.
-Bug: This type deals fine with Magearna, it's far from pushing the matchup to the edge.
-Psychic: Same as Bug.
-Fire: Straight up doesn't lose to Magearna unless played very badly.

Not saying Magearna is not an amazing Pokemon, but as a person who is still undecided, I would prefer to see better constructed arguments that would actually convince me instead of irrelevant and false "facts".
On behalf of the Magearna Prohibition Party, I regret to inform you that there was too much information in your post to address in a single sitting, so I'll focus on a couple of your points for now.

#3a: Poison.
As I had mentioned, Shift Gear was the primary test set, with Weakness Policy. Klefki was carrying Reflect and Light Screen, as I had stated. And although I didn't mention it, I assumed there would be no doubt that Klefki had Spikes. Generally, the famous key chain would depart from its Pokéball™, first establishing either Reflect or Light Screen, then continue by setting up 1-3 layers of Spikes, and conclude by erecting the missing shield before being sacrificed. Then Magearna would enter the fray, use Shift Gear, and have its Weakness Policy activated, as one does. Then it would often sweep Poison. Granted, my Fairy team with this Magearna set didn't win ALL of the time. More like 70-80% of the time against some of the highest ranking league members from several of the highest ranking leagues, during that part of the test phase. Naturally, without Magearna Fairy only wins like 20% of the time. Therefore, I was compelled by the scientific method of observation to mention this change.

#3b: Grass.
As I said, weakness policy Magearna with screens, Shift Gear, And Ice Beam beats Grass most of the time. Ironhead/Flash Cannon kills Cradily. Ice Beam beats everything that isn't Ferrothorn. It also kills Ferrothorn after, I believe, two hits. Perhaps three. Either Ironhead, Flash Cannon, or Ice Beam will kill Mega Venusaur after a few hits, depending on how bulk-supportive the Jurassic vegetable proves. Mega Venusaur also tends to continue attacking rather than recover or use Leech Seed, for fear of future boosts.

#3c: Normal.
Shift Gear with Ironhead has a tendency to beat Chansey after you get +3, from Earthquake Diggersby, Heatwave Mega Pidgeot, Fire Blast Exploud, etc. The Steel typing also lets Magearna resist Normal moves, while most other Fairies do not. Although I didn't test Magearna against many Normal team-inclined league members, it did beat those unreliable 1550-1600 Elo ladder teams around 60-70% of the time. Granted, I used more than those two Pokémon™, but Magearna did exceptionally well, regardless.

#3d: Ground.
Like Poison, I tested this Fairy team against high ranking league members who specialized in using Ground. With a 60-70% win rate. Although I found Air Balloon to be fairly effective against any land-contorting Pokémon™ holding one of the three Choice items, my preferred strategy of double Screen with Weakness Policy still worked most splendidly. I shall say though, that I did find Excadrill to be rather bothersome, and was generally better handled by Azumarill. Azumarill, in turn, gets countered by speed creep Seismitoad. Seismitoad, in turn, gets countered by Energy Ball. Along with Mega Swampert and Gastrodon. Hence why Energy Ball, although surely not my preferred fourth move, can be viable.

#3e: Bug.
I have actually played a trifle of Bug in my day. Perhaps 20,000 matches. And yes, I agree that Bug type is reasonably reliable for beating Magearna. Except when your attacks get cut down to half damage. Under the right circumstances, +2 Thunderbolt can sweep a Bug team. Circumstances which occurred with this set Around 60-70% of the time. Again, I used more than two Pokémon™, of which Togekiss was often a member. During which case, Togekiss was more effective, but Magearna was no less effective, elevating the win rate perhaps an additional 10%.

#3f: Psychic.
As stated, this specific Fairy team has a high win rate against Psychic. High in this case meaning 50-60%. The times when I had replaced Magearna, the effect was negligible. As you may note, I didn't spend a great deal of time talking about Psychic. I believe, literally only said one word about it; it's name. While giving a list of every type. The point of the list was mostly to highlight the fact that, with the right team, a Fairy team with Weakness Policy Magearna beats - or is evenly matched against - every other type.

#3g: Fire.
Like Psychic, I mentioned that this Fairy team has a high victory rate against Fire as well. Again, 50-60%. Considering that other Fairy teams (including my own other Fairy teams) tend to be disadvantaged against Fire, I would consider this to be an improvement. One which adds to the assessment that Magearna is too powerful.

#4: Facts.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But, I simply must ask how you reached this conclusion. If you consider almost a year of observation, personal experience, daily experience, low, mid, and high ladder experience repeated 29 times from start to finish, experience with multiple sets, group experience, listening to feedback from multiple outlets, and testing against some of the strongest players in the world irrelevant, what do you consider to be relevant experience? Perhaps the criteria you use could improve my ability to provide a relevant evaluation. After all, are all things in life not a summary of our experiences? And don't people see things differently because of their lack of experience. For example, you could say that 1600 Elo is extremely easy to get. And I perhaps could be persuaded to agree with such a sentiment. But how much experience is required for a primary account to get to that stage? As few as 100 battles? Or a giant number like 1,000? Which provides a better learning experience? The more experience, the more relevant an opinion becomes. After some amount of experience, that opinion purifies and solidifies into a fact, even should it be a simple one. After five thousand battles, although I would never want to assume that I know more than everybody else, I can safely say that it's a fact that Magearna - especially Weakness Policy Magearna - is exceptionally gifted to the point that it wins most match ups.

Thank you for your interest, and I hope that I've broadened your understanding of Pokémon™.
 
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#37
On behalf of the Magearna Prohibition Party, I regret to inform you that there was too much information in your post to address in a single sitting, so I'll focus on a couple of your points for now.

#3a: Poison.
As I had mentioned, Shift Gear was the primary test set, with Weakness Policy. Klefki was carrying Reflect and Light Screen, as I had stated. And although I didn't mention it, I assumed there would be no doubt that Klefki had Spikes. Generally, the famous key chain would depart from its Pokéball™, first establishing either Reflect or Light Screen, then continue by setting up 1-3 layers of Spikes, and conclude by erecting the missing shield before being sacrificed. Then Magearna would enter the fray, use Shift Gear, and have its Weakness Policy activated, as one does. Then it would often sweep Poison. Granted, my Fairy team with this Magearna set didn't win ALL of the time. More like 70-80% of the time against some of the highest ranking league members from several of the highest ranking leagues, during that part of the test phase. Naturally, without Magearna Fairy only wins like 20% of the time. Therefore, I was compelled by the scientific method of observation to mention this change.

#3b: Grass.
As I said, weakness policy Magearna with screens, Shift Gear, And Ice Beam beats Grass most of the time. Ironhead/Flash Cannon kills Cradily. Ice Beam beats everything that isn't Ferrothorn. It also kills Ferrothorn after, I believe, two hits. Perhaps three. Either Ironhead, Flash Cannon, or Ice Beam will kill Mega Venusaur after a few hits, depending on how bulk-supportive the Jurassic vegetable proves. Mega Venusaur also tends to continue attacking rather than recover or use Leech Seed, for fear of future boosts.

#3c: Normal.
Shift Gear with Ironhead has a tendency to beat Chansey after you get +3, from Earthquake Diggersby, Heatwave Mega Pidgeot, Fire Blast Exploud, etc. The Steel typing also lets Magearna resist Normal moves, while most other Fairies do not. Although I didn't test Magearna against many Normal team-inclined league members, it did beat those unreliable 1550-1600 Elo ladder teams around 60-70% of the time. Granted, I used more than those two Pokémon™, but Magearna did exceptionally well, regardless.

#3d: Ground.
Like Poison, I tested this Fairy team against high ranking league members who specialized in using Ground. With a 60-70% win rate. Although I found Air Balloon to be fairly effective against any land-contorting Pokémon™ holding one of the three Choice items, my preferred strategy of double Screen with Weakness Policy still worked most splendidly. I shall say though, that I did find Excadrill to be rather bothersome, and was generally better handled by Azumarill. Azumarill, in turn, gets countered by speed creep Seismitoad. Seismitoad, in turn, gets countered by Energy Ball. Along with Mega Swampert and Gastrodon. Hence why Energy Ball, although surely not my preferred fourth move, can be viable.

#3e: Bug.
I have actually played a trifle of Bug in my day. Perhaps 20,000 matches. And yes, I agree that Bug type is reasonably reliable for beating Magearna. Except when your attacks get cut down to half damage. Under the right circumstances, +2 Thunderbolt can sweep a Bug team. Circumstances which occurred with this set Around 60-70% of the time. Again, I used more than two Pokémon™, of which Togekiss was often a member. During which case, Togekiss was more effective, but Magearna was no less effective, elevating the win rate perhaps an additional 10%.

#3f: Psychic.
As stated, this specific Fairy team has a high win rate against Psychic. High in this case meaning 50-60%. The times when I had replaced Magearna, the effect was negligible. As you may note, I didn't spend a great deal of time talking about Psychic. I believe, literally only said one word about it; it's name. While giving a list of every type. The point of the list was mostly to highlight the fact that, with the right team, a Fairy team with Weakness Policy Magearna beats - or is evenly matched against - every other type.

#3g: Fire.
Like Psychic, I mentioned that this Fairy team has a high victory rate against Fire as well. Again, 50-60%. Considering that other Fairy teams (including my own other Fairy teams) tend to be disadvantaged against Fire, I would consider this to be an improvement. One which adds to the assessment that Magearna is too powerful.

#4: Facts.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But, I simply must ask how you reached this conclusion. If you consider almost a year of observation, personal experience, daily experience, low, mid, and high ladder experience repeated 29 times from start to finish, experience with multiple sets, group experience, listening to feedback from multiple outlets, and testing against some of the strongest players in the world irrelevant, what do you consider to be relevant experience? Perhaps the criteria you use could improve my ability to provide a relevant evaluation. After all, are all things in life not a summary of our experiences? And don't people see things differently because of their lack of experience. For example, you could say that 1600 Elo is extremely easy to get. And I perhaps could be persuaded to agree with such a sentiment. But how much experience is required for a primary account to get to that stage? As few as 100 battles? Or a giant number like 1,000? Which provides a better learning experience? The more experience, the more relevant an opinion becomes. After some amount of experience, that opinion purifies and solidifies into a fact, even should it be a simple one. After five thousand battles, although I would never want to assume that I know more than everybody else, I can safely say that it's a fact that Magearna - especially Weakness Policy Magearna - is exceptionally gifted to the point that it wins most match ups.

Thank you for your interest, and I hope that I've broadened your understanding of Pokémon™.
I hate to mess up the thread with this, but unfortunately it seems necessary. Hopefully there will be no need to explain your mistakes a third time.

Poison: First and foremost, your performance vs league members has absolutely no grounds to be mentioned when it comes to the viability of a Pokemon. No matter how ranked they are in their leagues, it is in no shape or form a sign of actual skill. Now to the actual matchup: Screens and Spikes are easily dealt with by a good defogger in Crobat and Mega Venusaur easily stalls out Magearna without needing to activate the WP.

Grass: Magearna can only 3HKO Ferrothorn at +2 with 3 Spikes up. With the lack of any other form of boosting, this Pokemon stalls out Magearna with Leech+Protect & Lefties support. Not to forget that Grass rarely has the opportunity to activate that WP. Similar to the previous point, Mega Venusaur just renders Magearna useless. It never needs to use HP Fire on the Magearna because it can easily just slowly kill it with residual damage.

Normal: Again, don't mention league members, literally zero value in this setting. Also of zero value, mentioning Iron Head. This move makes you lose out on something way more important and you aren't gaining anything. The Fairy type does not need such a useless set to beat Normal and it only makes you perform worse in other matchups such as vs Mega Venusaur who is generally physically bulky.

Ground: You get the point about league members, dont need to bring it up again. Energy Ball is a useless move slot when you have teammates like Tapu Bulu. Also, as previously mentioned by me, Magearna has no actual impact on this matchup. It would be Fairy's advantage regardless with the Azumarill + Tapu Bulu pair.

Bug: Volcarona + Scizor can take of Magearna rather safely. It is important to note that +2 Magearna does not kill Volcarona and that Pokemon is generally the only one that will activate your WP. You can play another 20,000 matches but it still won't matter because your opponents on the ladder do not define what high level play is.

Psychic: +2 Magearna Thunderbolt can only 2HKO Victini, which means it can easily come in and take out Magearna with a V-Create (even with Reflect you are taking up to 85%). Similar to Volcarona, Victini is generally the only one that is triggering your WP which means it can safely handle the Pokemon.

Fire: Magearna has absolutely no effect in this matchup. Azumarill + Tapu Koko generally are the ones putting pressure on this type, Magearna is almost just fodder because it has a hard time setting up and can not KO a lot of opponents (ex: Victini, Volcarona, Mega Charizard X)

Facts: As mentioned in my previous post, ladder matches are insignificant regardless of the amount you've played. League members, ladder players and etc... are not the "greatest players in the world", so you shouldn't be considering them as such. It is also important to note that many only use 1 type which is highly detrimental to your level of discussion about the dominance of Magearna. They will often be biased by the type they use. Finally, relevant experience would be evaluating if the Pokemon has shown to be overbearing even for better players in a diversity of matchups.
 
#38
I hate to mess up the thread with this, but unfortunately it seems necessary. Hopefully there will be no need to explain your mistakes a third time.

Poison: First and foremost, your performance vs league members has absolutely no grounds to be mentioned when it comes to the viability of a Pokemon. No matter how ranked they are in their leagues, it is in no shape or form a sign of actual skill. Now to the actual matchup: Screens and Spikes are easily dealt with by a good defogger in Crobat and Mega Venusaur easily stalls out Magearna without needing to activate the WP.

Grass: Magearna can only 3HKO Ferrothorn at +2 with 3 Spikes up. With the lack of any other form of boosting, this Pokemon stalls out Magearna with Leech+Protect & Lefties support. Not to forget that Grass rarely has the opportunity to activate that WP. Similar to the previous point, Mega Venusaur just renders Magearna useless. It never needs to use HP Fire on the Magearna because it can easily just slowly kill it with residual damage.

Normal: Again, don't mention league members, literally zero value in this setting. Also of zero value, mentioning Iron Head. This move makes you lose out on something way more important and you aren't gaining anything. The Fairy type does not need such a useless set to beat Normal and it only makes you perform worse in other matchups such as vs Mega Venusaur who is generally physically bulky.

Ground: You get the point about league members, dont need to bring it up again. Energy Ball is a useless move slot when you have teammates like Tapu Bulu. Also, as previously mentioned by me, Magearna has no actual impact on this matchup. It would be Fairy's advantage regardless with the Azumarill + Tapu Bulu pair.

Bug: Volcarona + Scizor can take of Magearna rather safely. It is important to note that +2 Magearna does not kill Volcarona and that Pokemon is generally the only one that will activate your WP. You can play another 20,000 matches but it still won't matter because your opponents on the ladder do not define what high level play is.

Psychic: +2 Magearna Thunderbolt can only 2HKO Victini, which means it can easily come in and take out Magearna with a V-Create (even with Reflect you are taking up to 85%). Similar to Volcarona, Victini is generally the only one that is triggering your WP which means it can safely handle the Pokemon.

Fire: Magearna has absolutely no effect in this matchup. Azumarill + Tapu Koko generally are the ones putting pressure on this type, Magearna is almost just fodder because it has a hard time setting up and can not KO a lot of opponents (ex: Victini, Volcarona, Mega Charizard X)

Facts: As mentioned in my previous post, ladder matches are insignificant regardless of the amount you've played. League members, ladder players and etc... are not the "greatest players in the world", so you shouldn't be considering them as such. It is also important to note that many only use 1 type which is highly detrimental to your level of discussion about the dominance of Magearna. They will often be biased by the type they use. Finally, relevant experience would be evaluating if the Pokemon has shown to be overbearing even for better players in a diversity of matchups.
Oh, that's quite alright, my dear. I don't mind teaching you some of the finer points of the game. But you disappeared so very quickly last night that I was unable to inform you.

Poison: The performance of a Pokémon™ "has absolutely no grounds to be mentioned" when evaluating said Pokémon™? That does not seem logical. You simply must understand that in the Pokémon™ game, one does not activate an opponent's Weakness Policy by choice. They do so because they don't realize the Pokémon™ is holding a Weakness Policy, or because said Pokémon™ switches positions with another Pokémon™. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are Ice and Electric types, meaning both are super-effective against Crobat. Ironhead also has a 30% chance to flinch a Pokémon™, giving our Fairy maiden another option.

Grass: In my experience, Grass activated the Weakness Policy more than half of the time. You see, Mega Venusaur often runs Hidden Power Fire. Fire moves are super-effective against Steel type, so Weakness Policy activates. As for your other point about three layers of Spikes, I'm afraid you failed to notice that if the Grass team in question doesn't have a super-effective move against Magearna, it doesn't have a super-effective move against Klefki either, meaning it would be a tiptoe through the tulips to get up three layers of Spikes, after which a Pokémon™ such as Togekiss or Mega Gardevoir or the Alolan subspecies of Ninetails could inflict substantial damage against a Grass team. As I had mentioned several times on previous occasions, I did not limit my teams to two Pokémon™. I actually had six.

Ground: I'm afraid that I do not think you have a point about league members. For if league members don't matter, why are you in a league? Why do leagues exist if their members don't matter? Also, I don't believe that I ever said Magearna has no actual impact on this match up. I believe I stated in depth about how important it is at changing the match up. You see, Ice Beam is four-times-effective against both Garchomp and Landorus, which are two of the five most common Ground Pokémon™. Although Energy Ball would ensure victory over the creatures of the bayou, +2 Ice Beam also tends to wins against Gastrodon, Seisimitoad, and Mega Swampert. If such an arrangement is still not enough for you to win, you would still manage to kill two or three Pokémon™, with Reflect and/or Light Screen still up, having only sacrificed two mismatched Steel Pokémon™ yourself. A profitable exchange, to be sure. One made possible by Magearna. Once your opponent has no Water Absorb-endowed companion, Azumarill can Belly Drum and sweep through their remaining Pokémon™. Adding Tapu Bulu to the mix would only serve to improve the win rate against the denizens of the dirt. Although, as I've been trying to teach, Tapu Bulu is not as versatile against other types as Magearna.

Bug: As mentioned several times now, I had Azumarill on my team, and usually Togekiss as well. With Reflect up, either can take care of Scizor or Mega Scizor fairly well, and either could defeat Volcarona while behind a Light Screen. I also noticed a slight oversight on your part. The pyromaniac of the insect world may be the best way to activate Weakness Policy, but there is another. Around half of all Mega Pinsir run Earthquake.

Psychic: Slowbro and Mega Slowbro get Flamethrower. Jirachi often runs Fire Punch. Mega Gardevoir sometimes runs Hidden Power Fire as well. And some of the less-experienced 1500 Elo players have been known to add Claydol to their teams, almost always providing it with Earthquake. Let us take, for example, Mega Slowbro, one of the most powerful defenders in the game. +2 Thunderbolt will one-hit-kill our shelled friend 98% of the time. While his/her Flamethrower does less than 30% to Magearna, even without bulk investment. The remaining 2% can be compensated for by a single layer of Spikes. Magearna has a very special Ability known as Soul-Heart. This raises its Special Attack one additional stage each time a Pokémon™ on the field dies. From that point, a combination of 1-3 Spikes and +3 neutral or super-effective attacks sweep most if not all of the Psychic type Pokémon™. If not, Magearna will still have roughly 75% of its Health Points left, with Screens still active. Unless, of course, you rely on double critical hits to win. Shift Gear Magearna will also out-speed Choice Scarfed Jirachi, a Pokémon™ feared across the entire Fairy Kingdom, which has thus been rendered helpless. It also out-speeds Choice Scarfed Victini. Should it be at +3 with 3 layers of Spikes, Victini will most likely perish. Additionally, if Victini is forced to use V-Create to kill Magearna, that provides Azumarill an idea backdrop to set up Belly Drum. Thus, what would appear to be a weakness could actually be an advantage.

Fire: When played correctly, Klefki and Magearna will take out a few Fire Pokémon™, leaving one or two Screens to their next of kin. Considering that Volcanion is sometimes built to creep past Azumarill at the finish line, Light Screen could be the difference between life and death for our adorable drummer. Meaning Klefki is essential for his well being. Magearna, in turn, is helpful to Klefki. In this game, Pokémon™ can usually be classified in three simple categories: Offensive, Defensive, and Support. Klefki is a Support Pokémon™ with Defensive elements. Mine usually had no attacking move. That means that it needs Offensive Pokémon™ to do the heavy lifting, such as Magearna. If Magearna is able to kill Charizard or Torkoal or Volcanion with Thunderbolt, that will make it safer for Azumarill. You see, Pokémon™ is all about teamwork. Take Charizard X, for example. Shift Gear will still out-speed Dragon Dance. As it does with, I believe, all Dragon Dancers, which provides a method to counter-act the incoming boosts to bypass Reflect and Light Screen. And although it just barely dies to +1 Flare Blitz from Charizard X, unboosted Ice Beam still deals 40% damage before Magearna fades into the ether. So even if Magearna doesn't beat every single Fire type, it still adds value. More value than most other Fairy Pokémon™. Although I must take a moment to applaud you for your innovative suggestion of using Tapu Koko. I shall be trying it out by first light upon the morrow.

Facts: Again, I inquire. If the top 1% of players on the ladder aren't the greatest players, and the highest ranked, most experienced league players aren't the greatest players, then what constitutes a great player in your opinion? Personally, I feel that someone who can get past 1,500 Elo in under 100 matches would be considered a reasonably good player.
 
#39
Some things I noticed on the suspect ladder
1. Dark

With Magearna gone, Dark has reverted to its ORAS play style. The defensive core of Tyranitar, Mandibuzz, Mega Sableye is now much more relevant, now with the new addition of Alolan Muk. Dark's viability increased because of magearna being gone, as previous Pokémon such as Mandibuzz or Mega Sableye now thrived because they were previously basically, Magearna bait.

2. Fairy
Fairy became much more easier to defeat as a Ghost main. Without Magearna, there is much less pressure on your defensive core, and is much easier to take down. Magearna, as you know, as a part steel type, is very valued on fairy to defeat the fat type we call Poison. With one of the poison immunities gone, Fairy relies on Klefki to deal with poison type moves. Ghost can easily defeat fairy by getting rid of Klefki and sending in Scarf Gengar to farm kills with Sludge Wave.

3. Mega Sableye
Mega Sableye, previously nerfed because of the numerous amounts of Fairies in the tier, became much more relevant in the SM monotype metagame. With this, Ghost and Dark teams became better because Mega Sableye walled all of steel barring heatran. Many people realized Mega Sableyes importance on Dark teams and used it over Mega Sharpedo.
Oh, that's quite alright, my dear. I don't mind teaching you some of the finer points of the game. But you disappeared so very quickly last night that I was unable to inform you.
*snip*

Facts: Again, I inquire. If the top 1% of players on the ladder aren't the greatest players, and the highest ranked, most experienced league players aren't the greatest players, then what constitutes a great player in your opinion? Personally, I feel that someone who can get past 1,500 Elo in under 100 matches would be considered a reasonably good player.
responding to Tanya, I think a good player is someone that can preform well under pressure. If you're like me and do well on ladder but choke on dicks in tournament matches or lvls then I don't think you would be considered "good".
 
#40
Weakness Policy Magearna is booty.

Your support of the set and claims that it can sweep every type are founded on a couple faulty assumptions: (A) that Weakness policy will be activated, (B) that (both) Screens will be up, and (C) that you will be running the appropriate coverage to sweep in a given matchup. All of these assumptions fall apart in practice against experienced battlers; the set relies on surprise factor to function and without boosts Magearna is easily managed by special walls and wallbreakers with strong neutral STAB. You can't run all the coverage at once, and wasting moveslots on Energy Ball and Ice beam will compromise your other matchups. Screens and Spikes are nice, but Defog exists. Almost all of the scenarios for Magearna you reference only make sense in a vacuum, relying on very specific circumstances that are difficult to recreate in actual play.

In short, WP Magearna is inconsistent.

If an argument is to be made to ban Magearna, then base it on the sets that actually have an impact on the meta. This thread has already been derailed enough by discussion on a completely irrelevant set.
 
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#41
Oh, that's quite alright, my dear. I don't mind teaching you some of the finer points of the game. But you disappeared so very quickly last night that I was unable to inform you.

Poison: The performance of a Pokémon™ "has absolutely no grounds to be mentioned" when evaluating said Pokémon™? That does not seem logical. You simply must understand that in the Pokémon™ game, one does not activate an opponent's Weakness Policy by choice. They do so because they don't realize the Pokémon™ is holding a Weakness Policy, or because said Pokémon™ switches positions with another Pokémon™. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are Ice and Electric types, meaning both are super-effective against Crobat. Ironhead also has a 30% chance to flinch a Pokémon™, giving our Fairy maiden another option.

Grass: In my experience, Grass activated the Weakness Policy more than half of the time. You see, Mega Venusaur often runs Hidden Power Fire. Fire moves are super-effective against Steel type, so Weakness Policy activates. As for your other point about three layers of Spikes, I'm afraid you failed to notice that if the Grass team in question doesn't have a super-effective move against Magearna, it doesn't have a super-effective move against Klefki either, meaning it would be a tiptoe through the tulips to get up three layers of Spikes, after which a Pokémon™ such as Togekiss or Mega Gardevoir or the Alolan subspecies of Ninetails could inflict substantial damage against a Grass team. As I had mentioned several times on previous occasions, I did not limit my teams to two Pokémon™. I actually had six.

Ground: I'm afraid that I do not think you have a point about league members. For if league members don't matter, why are you in a league? Why do leagues exist if their members don't matter? Also, I don't believe that I ever said Magearna has no actual impact on this match up. I believe I stated in depth about how important it is at changing the match up. You see, Ice Beam is four-times-effective against both Garchomp and Landorus, which are two of the five most common Ground Pokémon™. Although Energy Ball would ensure victory over the creatures of the bayou, +2 Ice Beam also tends to wins against Gastrodon, Seisimitoad, and Mega Swampert. If such an arrangement is still not enough for you to win, you would still manage to kill two or three Pokémon™, with Reflect and/or Light Screen still up, having only sacrificed two mismatched Steel Pokémon™ yourself. A profitable exchange, to be sure. One made possible by Magearna. Once your opponent has no Water Absorb-endowed companion, Azumarill can Belly Drum and sweep through their remaining Pokémon™. Adding Tapu Bulu to the mix would only serve to improve the win rate against the denizens of the dirt. Although, as I've been trying to teach, Tapu Bulu is not as versatile against other types as Magearna.

Bug: As mentioned several times now, I had Azumarill on my team, and usually Togekiss as well. With Reflect up, either can take care of Scizor or Mega Scizor fairly well, and either could defeat Volcarona while behind a Light Screen. I also noticed a slight oversight on your part. The pyromaniac of the insect world may be the best way to activate Weakness Policy, but there is another. Around half of all Mega Pinsir run Earthquake.

Psychic: Slowbro and Mega Slowbro get Flamethrower. Jirachi often runs Fire Punch. Mega Gardevoir sometimes runs Hidden Power Fire as well. And some of the less-experienced 1500 Elo players have been known to add Claydol to their teams, almost always providing it with Earthquake. Let us take, for example, Mega Slowbro, one of the most powerful defenders in the game. +2 Thunderbolt will one-hit-kill our shelled friend 98% of the time. While his/her Flamethrower does less than 30% to Magearna, even without bulk investment. The remaining 2% can be compensated for by a single layer of Spikes. Magearna has a very special Ability known as Soul-Heart. This raises its Special Attack one additional stage each time a Pokémon™ on the field dies. From that point, a combination of 1-3 Spikes and +3 neutral or super-effective attacks sweep most if not all of the Psychic type Pokémon™. If not, Magearna will still have roughly 75% of its Health Points left, with Screens still active. Unless, of course, you rely on double critical hits to win. Shift Gear Magearna will also out-speed Choice Scarfed Jirachi, a Pokémon™ feared across the entire Fairy Kingdom, which has thus been rendered helpless. It also out-speeds Choice Scarfed Victini. Should it be at +3 with 3 layers of Spikes, Victini will most likely perish. Additionally, if Victini is forced to use V-Create to kill Magearna, that provides Azumarill an idea backdrop to set up Belly Drum. Thus, what would appear to be a weakness could actually be an advantage.

Fire: When played correctly, Klefki and Magearna will take out a few Fire Pokémon™, leaving one or two Screens to their next of kin. Considering that Volcanion is sometimes built to creep past Azumarill at the finish line, Light Screen could be the difference between life and death for our adorable drummer. Meaning Klefki is essential for his well being. Magearna, in turn, is helpful to Klefki. In this game, Pokémon™ can usually be classified in three simple categories: Offensive, Defensive, and Support. Klefki is a Support Pokémon™ with Defensive elements. Mine usually had no attacking move. That means that it needs Offensive Pokémon™ to do the heavy lifting, such as Magearna. If Magearna is able to kill Charizard or Torkoal or Volcanion with Thunderbolt, that will make it safer for Azumarill. You see, Pokémon™ is all about teamwork. Take Charizard X, for example. Shift Gear will still out-speed Dragon Dance. As it does with, I believe, all Dragon Dancers, which provides a method to counter-act the incoming boosts to bypass Reflect and Light Screen. And although it just barely dies to +1 Flare Blitz from Charizard X, unboosted Ice Beam still deals 40% damage before Magearna fades into the ether. So even if Magearna doesn't beat every single Fire type, it still adds value. More value than most other Fairy Pokémon™. Although I must take a moment to applaud you for your innovative suggestion of using Tapu Koko. I shall be trying it out by first light upon the morrow.

Facts: Again, I inquire. If the top 1% of players on the ladder aren't the greatest players, and the highest ranked, most experienced league players aren't the greatest players, then what constitutes a great player in your opinion? Personally, I feel that someone who can get past 1,500 Elo in under 100 matches would be considered a reasonably good player.
Smogon isn't a side server chat room. You should talk as a normal person and give a discrete analysis if you want people to take you and/or your arguments seriously. Regarding high level players, you can generally look at who plays in highlight matches, makes it extremely far in or wins Monotype Seasonals, people that are drafted for and play in MPL, or even those that appear as the "Player of the Week" to see who is generally a skilled player. Most strong players don't usually ladder and when they occasionally do, it's almost always under alts anyways so you probably wouldn't know who it really is.

Weakness Policy is such an awful item to run on a Pokemon with only two weaknesses in a metagame like Monotype, regardless of how common they may be on certain teams as coverage options. Your entire gameplan around Magearna's offensive kit depends on hopefully getting hit by supereffective attacks that are weak enough to not eliminate the threat that Magearna can present in a match, rather than having a legitimate threat either from the get-go by running some from of Z crystal or by having at least some assured sustain with double dance plus leftovers. WP Magearna can then only have actual sweeping potential if WP activates, unless the opponents decides to just donate Pokemon to give you Soul Heart boosts, especially if you're dependent on mediocre coverage like Iron Head or Energy Ball. Just stick to Z crystal with BoltBeam, STAB, or Fighting coverage.

Breaking down your argument, here's what will generally happen when you face the matchups you listed against strong players with WP Magearna Fairy.

Poison: Magearna has very few opportunities to get in safely in this matchup, risking getting Scald burned, hit with Leech Seed, pressured in and out by threats like Gengar and Nidoking. The likelihood that Magearna will get the boosts from WP without being easily crippled is minimal at best, if you even get the boosts at all. Then again, Toxapex can simply haze away WP boosts and render Magearna practically useless for the rest of the battle if it isn't running Calm Mind. Team support wise, unless you're running support Togekiss, Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock will be burning into the survive-ability of your Pokemon fairly quickly, while Poison can avoid Spikes stacking up fairly easily with Nidoking.
Grass: Unless the Grass team is packing Z Earth Power Celebi, WP Magearna will just get stalled out by Leech/Tect and Mega Venusaur while the rest of your team gets pressured by full Spikes and Stealth Rock as well as every random utility that Grass runs. Stallbreaker Togekiss might make an appearance in a high-level match at some point, but without it Fairy has pretty much no foothold in the matchup.
Ground: Basically the matchup revolves around if the Ground team has a setup sweeper and Excadrill's usage with how well it can pressure Azumarill and Tapu Bulu. Unless you plan on getting up multiple Shift Gear against Ground behind screens safely, which you almost always won't, WP Magearna gets shutdown by Sand Rush Excadrill as soon as screens drop meaning either Magearna drops or something else drops. If Magearna swaps out then you most likely lose your WP boosts right there. The Fairy team is then pressured by Stealth Rock and Sandstorm constantly throughout the battle and depends on Azu and Bulu to open up holes.
Bug: Comes down to how Fairy keeps Stealth Rock up, whether or not Clefable can snag some free damage and possibly a KO on Scizor(-Mega), and if Azumarill can hold the Bug team at bay since without it Scizor(-Mega) and Volcarona generally sweep. WP Magearna becomes rapid spin/setup bait and is near useless.
Psychic: Just to clarify a few things, only Choice Scarf Jirachi generally runs Fire Punch and it is an extremely uncommon set to see, Slowbro and Mega Slowbro have the same Special Defense stat so one being used over the other in the face of Magearna doesn't matter, Mega Gardevoir should not and does not run HP Fire, and Claydol is a terrible mon and gets no usage. Victini using V-create isn't that risky since if Azu comes in to use Belly Drum, the Psychic team can switch to a mon that it wants to sack and bring in Soul Dew/Life Orb Latios for a KO with Psyshock since +6 AJ doesn't KO even after Stealth Rock. If Azu drops, Choice Scarf Victini sweeps the rest of the Fairy team with V-create, bar Klefki Thunder Wave shenanigans. Specially Defensive Jirachi, generally the set you will see 90% of the time, walls Magearna and spams Iron Head for free. The Fairy team is very dependent on calling out favorable switches usually with baits and getting the entire Psychic team in range of a +6 AJ from Azu.
Fire: Getting Azu in safely and at +6 without getting burned is all that matters in this matchup. Char X at +1 just has a field day if Klefki is down and since it's Fire, it's not going to be difficult to accomplish. The Fire team most likely will give you zero room at all times to make any plays that you want to and WP Magearna completely depends on having boosted neutral non-STAB coverage to have any sort of presence making it pretty terrible.
 
#42
Oh, that's quite alright, my dear. I don't mind teaching you some of the finer points of the game. But you disappeared so very quickly last night that I was unable to inform you.

Poison: The performance of a Pokémon™ "has absolutely no grounds to be mentioned" when evaluating said Pokémon™? That does not seem logical. You simply must understand that in the Pokémon™ game, one does not activate an opponent's Weakness Policy by choice. They do so because they don't realize the Pokémon™ is holding a Weakness Policy, or because said Pokémon™ switches positions with another Pokémon™. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are Ice and Electric types, meaning both are super-effective against Crobat. Ironhead also has a 30% chance to flinch a Pokémon™, giving our Fairy maiden another option.

Grass: In my experience, Grass activated the Weakness Policy more than half of the time. You see, Mega Venusaur often runs Hidden Power Fire. Fire moves are super-effective against Steel type, so Weakness Policy activates. As for your other point about three layers of Spikes, I'm afraid you failed to notice that if the Grass team in question doesn't have a super-effective move against Magearna, it doesn't have a super-effective move against Klefki either, meaning it would be a tiptoe through the tulips to get up three layers of Spikes, after which a Pokémon™ such as Togekiss or Mega Gardevoir or the Alolan subspecies of Ninetails could inflict substantial damage against a Grass team. As I had mentioned several times on previous occasions, I did not limit my teams to two Pokémon™. I actually had six.

Ground: I'm afraid that I do not think you have a point about league members. For if league members don't matter, why are you in a league? Why do leagues exist if their members don't matter? Also, I don't believe that I ever said Magearna has no actual impact on this match up. I believe I stated in depth about how important it is at changing the match up. You see, Ice Beam is four-times-effective against both Garchomp and Landorus, which are two of the five most common Ground Pokémon™. Although Energy Ball would ensure victory over the creatures of the bayou, +2 Ice Beam also tends to wins against Gastrodon, Seisimitoad, and Mega Swampert. If such an arrangement is still not enough for you to win, you would still manage to kill two or three Pokémon™, with Reflect and/or Light Screen still up, having only sacrificed two mismatched Steel Pokémon™ yourself. A profitable exchange, to be sure. One made possible by Magearna. Once your opponent has no Water Absorb-endowed companion, Azumarill can Belly Drum and sweep through their remaining Pokémon™. Adding Tapu Bulu to the mix would only serve to improve the win rate against the denizens of the dirt. Although, as I've been trying to teach, Tapu Bulu is not as versatile against other types as Magearna.

Bug: As mentioned several times now, I had Azumarill on my team, and usually Togekiss as well. With Reflect up, either can take care of Scizor or Mega Scizor fairly well, and either could defeat Volcarona while behind a Light Screen. I also noticed a slight oversight on your part. The pyromaniac of the insect world may be the best way to activate Weakness Policy, but there is another. Around half of all Mega Pinsir run Earthquake.

Psychic: Slowbro and Mega Slowbro get Flamethrower. Jirachi often runs Fire Punch. Mega Gardevoir sometimes runs Hidden Power Fire as well. And some of the less-experienced 1500 Elo players have been known to add Claydol to their teams, almost always providing it with Earthquake. Let us take, for example, Mega Slowbro, one of the most powerful defenders in the game. +2 Thunderbolt will one-hit-kill our shelled friend 98% of the time. While his/her Flamethrower does less than 30% to Magearna, even without bulk investment. The remaining 2% can be compensated for by a single layer of Spikes. Magearna has a very special Ability known as Soul-Heart. This raises its Special Attack one additional stage each time a Pokémon™ on the field dies. From that point, a combination of 1-3 Spikes and +3 neutral or super-effective attacks sweep most if not all of the Psychic type Pokémon™. If not, Magearna will still have roughly 75% of its Health Points left, with Screens still active. Unless, of course, you rely on double critical hits to win. Shift Gear Magearna will also out-speed Choice Scarfed Jirachi, a Pokémon™ feared across the entire Fairy Kingdom, which has thus been rendered helpless. It also out-speeds Choice Scarfed Victini. Should it be at +3 with 3 layers of Spikes, Victini will most likely perish. Additionally, if Victini is forced to use V-Create to kill Magearna, that provides Azumarill an idea backdrop to set up Belly Drum. Thus, what would appear to be a weakness could actually be an advantage.

Fire: When played correctly, Klefki and Magearna will take out a few Fire Pokémon™, leaving one or two Screens to their next of kin. Considering that Volcanion is sometimes built to creep past Azumarill at the finish line, Light Screen could be the difference between life and death for our adorable drummer. Meaning Klefki is essential for his well being. Magearna, in turn, is helpful to Klefki. In this game, Pokémon™ can usually be classified in three simple categories: Offensive, Defensive, and Support. Klefki is a Support Pokémon™ with Defensive elements. Mine usually had no attacking move. That means that it needs Offensive Pokémon™ to do the heavy lifting, such as Magearna. If Magearna is able to kill Charizard or Torkoal or Volcanion with Thunderbolt, that will make it safer for Azumarill. You see, Pokémon™ is all about teamwork. Take Charizard X, for example. Shift Gear will still out-speed Dragon Dance. As it does with, I believe, all Dragon Dancers, which provides a method to counter-act the incoming boosts to bypass Reflect and Light Screen. And although it just barely dies to +1 Flare Blitz from Charizard X, unboosted Ice Beam still deals 40% damage before Magearna fades into the ether. So even if Magearna doesn't beat every single Fire type, it still adds value. More value than most other Fairy Pokémon™. Although I must take a moment to applaud you for your innovative suggestion of using Tapu Koko. I shall be trying it out by first light upon the morrow.

Facts: Again, I inquire. If the top 1% of players on the ladder aren't the greatest players, and the highest ranked, most experienced league players aren't the greatest players, then what constitutes a great player in your opinion? Personally, I feel that someone who can get past 1,500 Elo in under 100 matches would be considered a reasonably good player.
There are some extreme holes in this post just like your last one. For Poison, if Iron Head is your Steel type attack in that matchup, then Magearna is by no means winning that matchup. Even if you get up a Shift Gear AND your Weakness Policy activates, you'll still fail to 2HKO Mega Venusaur, and with the Leech Seed+Synthesis recovery, it won't even win with a +3 Ice Beam. And in some cases, Mega Venusaur on Poison may opt for Sludge Bomb over Hidden Power Fire, so at times you won't even get the Weakness Policy activated against it. Iron Head specifically is a straight-up garbage move that isn't relevant at all on Magearna, so there wasn't much point bringing that up.

For Grass, the same Mega Venusaur situation applies, so I won't bother repeating all that. Alolan Ninetales is practically never used on Fairy, so there isn't much purpose in mentioning that as something that threatens Grass. In fact, it doesn't even threaten Grass, since Ferrothorn literally switches in and beats it with Gyro Ball.

For Ground, Magearna doesn't even need to have its whole set tailored around beating the type. Energy Ball is simply an awful coverage move that shouldn't be used on any Fairy team. With Azumarill and Tapu Bulu, Fairy already has a favorable matchup against Ground without practically undermining so many of Magearna's other matchups.

For Bug, Volcarona isn't a good way of activating the Weakness Policy, since an unboosted Inferno Overdrive will have a 50% chance of KOing even with a Light Screen up, and when it doesn't kill, you'll be within range of Scizor. Earthquake on Mega Pinsir is hardly ever seen(very little reason to use it outside of Toxapex, and even then +2 Return will have a good chance of KOing after Stealth Rock). It still confuses me why you continue to bring up these irrelevant examples to support your argument.

For Psychic, both Scarf and Band Victini are more than effective checks to Shift Gear Magearna. Band Victini KOs through Reflect anyway, so I'm not too sure how Psychic is largely struggling vs Magearna. And sorry, but Mega Gardevoir literally never runs Hidden Power Fire, so Magearna will never be taking advantage of that. Focus Blast, which is an actual VIABLE move on Mega Gardevoir, will be doing the same damage as Hidden Power Fire, so gl activating that worthless Weakness Policy against it. As for letting Azumarill set up, Sash Counter Alakazam easily stops its sweep regardless, so it's not like letting Azu set up is the end of the world for Psychic either.

For Fire, Magearna is near useless in this matchup due to how consistently pressured it is, and the fact that it won't be getting far at all even if it does end up getting set up. The Victini and Volcarona examples I brought up earlier also apply here, with the addition of also being beaten by Heatran if you aren't carrying Aura Sphere. Tapu Koko isn't an "innovative suggestion" for Fairy, since it's literally a staple pick no matter what and is one of the best Pokemon in the current metagame.

Tyke and iLlama have stated a lot of the other flaws in your argument, so I won't go into those. So my suggestions would be finding more relevant examples to back up your argument, try focusing on some of the sets that actually make Magearna a large threat in the metagame instead of referring to completely horrible examples such as Iron Head and Energy Ball, and as iLlama said, try talking like a normal person.
 
#43
Even though the ladder is still reacting to the temporary ban of Magearna, I feel like we are at a point where we can begin to analyze the effect that Magearna has had in comparison to where we are at without Magearna. That said I would like to add a disclaimer that some of these claims may not be entirely true as this is based on my own experience with the ladder, and the ladder is still settling down, and will continue to do so for the next week.

Fairy: Fairy has seen very little usage on the suspect ladder without Magearna, and the few teams I have seen were poorly put together, and were not hard to defeat. Klefki is really the only Poison immune Pokemon on Fairy, as Mawile (also immune to Poison), Mimikyu and Diancie (Both Neutral to Poison) are all sub-optimal choices for Fairy to run. This makes abusing Fairy's Poison weakness far easier for Pokemon like Muk-Alola and Poison Sweepers to handle Fairy.

Steel: I think may just be my personal experience, but I haven't actually seen too much Steel on the ladder, but I am going to mostly attribute this to people experimenting with other types right now, and the Steel users out there not being online when I ladder. I cannot say too much about the effect losing Magearna has had on Steel as I don't play it, nor have I seen many other people playing it either.

Poison: Poison already had a solid match up vs Fairy, with Magearna only inhibiting Poison when it ran Calm Mind. Without Magearna, Poison just found an easier match up against a type it already beat, and it has seen solid usage on the ladder because of the monsters Toxapex, Mega-Venusaur, and Muk-Alola are. However, I found that it wasn't the top type because Dragon generally didn't have trouble with it considering how common Earthquake is on pokemon such as Garchomp and Dragonite, with Scarf Latios pretty much sweeping the type after Muk is gone.

Dragon:
If you ask me, this may be the single type that has gained the most usage on the ladder without Magearna around. Its match up vs Fairy is still rather undesirable, and Mega Gardevoir is still a massive threat to the type, but Dragon has a considerably easier time than when Magearna was around. Also with a nerf to the two types resist/are immune to Dragon, I found that Dragon was in a place to be a dominant force in the metagame.

Water: I am not sure many people expected this, but I found that Water saw considerably more usage. With Fairy not around much, Water suddenly lacked a lot of pressure from the Tapu Twins on Fairy, as well as what Magearna did to Water on Steel. Also, the two types that naturally beat Water, Electric and Grass, have not been used too much as the latter is still a bad type, and the former struggles to find a hold in the metagame as Raichu-Alola is considerably weak to Muk-Alola while its defensive core is not too good either. This leaves Water with solid match ups against pretty much everything else on the ladder, including Dragon with Kingdra and Scarf Greninja to help a lot in that match up and Manaphy or Gyarados to help out with Mega Venusaur on Poison.

Dark: Regrettably, it seems that Dark did not receive as much of a buff as I would have liked. However, it still has seen quite a bit of usage as Mega Sableye is definitely a force to be reckoned with for teams unprepared, and the Mandibuzz + Tyranitar + Muk-Alola core is solid. Dark also has access to a massive monster in Scarf Greninja which has Ice Beam for Dragons and Gunk Shot for Fairies.

The Irrelevant Types (Ghost, Grass, Rock, Ice, and Fighting): Oddly enough, I have seen several teams of each type decently high into the ladder. This excites me because, even though they are certainly not the best types, they were still around (although it may have just been people experimenting with them). I know that these types are not the ones to argue for when arguing pro or anti-ban, but I still found this interesting and wanted to at least make mention of them. With Magearna not around, four of these five types had one less threat to worry about while three of these types even have solid match ups against at least one of the four types I mentioned that have seen considerable usage after Magearna's disappearance. Ice is good against Water (Freeze Dry in particular), and Dragon; Grass is really good against Water; and Fighting is good against Dark, while Mega Gallade can also sweep an unprepared Poison team, or one that has lost Crobat. Even though some of these types have personally screwed up my Coil on some runs, even these five types can find their place, further increasing the diversity of the metagame, which I personally want.

Anyway, these are some of my personal observations of the current state of the game.
 

Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Co-Leader
#44
The laddering period of the Magearna suspect test has concluded. Thank you to everyone that participated on the ladder! The voting period will now begin.

Until August 14 11:59 PM EDT (GMT-4), voters may cast their vote by starting a private conversation with Eien here on Smogon.

To do so, click Eien and click "Start a Conversation". Make the Conversation Title something to the effect of: "Magearna Suspect Vote". In the message, please choose one of two options:
Magearna: Ban
Magearna: Do Not Ban
A 60% majority is required to ban Magearna.

The deadline is final and there will be no exceptions whatsoever.

If either a Ban threshold of 21 voters or Do Not Ban threshold of 15 voters is met, Eien will announce the results early. However, you may still cast your vote for the sake of posterity. If not, the results will be announced as soon as the voting period ends.

If your name is in the following list, please cast your vote. If your name is not in the following list but you have reached at least 2900 COIL in at most 70 games and posted proof of such in the suspect voter ID thread within the laddering period, notify Eien immediately with a link to your post.



You may still continue discussion in this thread. Do not use this thread to cast your vote. If you have questions regarding the voting process, message Eien.

Tagging The Immortal set up the normal Monotype ladder. Thank you!
 

Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Co-Leader
#45
While there is still time before the end of the voting period and some voters have not made their decision yet, their vote will not change the outcome of this suspect.

Ban: 22
Do Not Ban: 10
Ban %: 68.75%

Votes: 32
Total Voters: 35

Monotype requires at least a 60% majority vote to ban, and even if the remaining 3 voters all voted Do Not Ban, the vote would still be 62.86% in favor to ban, meaning the outcome cannot be changed. As a result, Magearna is now banned from Monotype.

Thank you to everyone that participated in the suspect! You may view the votes here.

Should they so desire, the remaining may still cast their vote for the sake of record keeping by PMing Eien.

Tagging The Immortal to implement the ban.
 
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