Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[hecatomb]

You do realise what you listed arent even counters, except for Zor? Pheromosa dies to Ice Shard after prior damage, Celesteela cannot afford to take a Knock Off and lose It's Leftovers, Kartana still takes decent damage from Icicle, and fire types except the ones holding a Z cristal cannot take a LO Knock Off either. From what you listed only Mega Zor counters Weavile, as it can manually switch in without any fear, which os not the case of the other stuff you mention, bar Z-Cristal, Ice-Resistant Fire types.

Pheromosa 1 shots Weavile with u-turn, Celesteela im pretty sure without out max SP attack still 1 shots weavile with flash cannon, Kartana still 1 shots Weavile, even if they are not "true counters" whatever that means, he still dies in 1 hit.

 

[Kstreak]

The point is that he should have presented the calc as such, as it has the POTENTIAL to mislead...

It was meant to show the power of scoli, not viable sets, with these extremes it shows that non invested/meta shouldn't be a problem.
Misleading? Not really.
Now I will probably just include meta calcs, not max invest. Thank you for the formatting tips by the way ;)

 

[Gary]

Pheromosa 1 shots Weavile with u-turn, Celesteela im pretty sure without out max SP attack still 1 shots weavile with flash cannon, Kartana still 1 shots Weavile, even if they are not "true counters" whatever that means, he still dies in 1 hit.

What he was saying is that none of these Pokemon can switch into it reliably, as they either risk losing items or get 2HKOed on the switch (in Pheros case it just dies). Kartana, Celesteela, and Pheromosa can CHECK Weavile (although Pheromosa takes a ton from Ice Shard and Kartana has to be pretty healthy to take it on reliably). Mega Scizor is one of the few Pokemon that can actually truly counter Weavile because it takes nothing from Knock and resists Ice moves/coverage.

 

[Colonel M]

Pheromosa 1 shots Weavile with u-turn, Celesteela im pretty sure without out max SP attack still 1 shots weavile with flash cannon, Kartana still 1 shots Weavile, even if they are not "true counters" whatever that means, he still dies in 1 hit.

Who cares if Weavile is OHKOed by U-turn anyway? Weavile is either going to bail or go for the Ice Shard if Pheromosa been worn down. Tapu Lele is OHKOed by Celesteela Heavy Slam. That doesn't suddenly make it B+, does it? Anyone with at least half a brain knows Weavile is not going to survive a hit majority of the time. The point is you threaten Pokemon out with Weavile and smash it with its moves.

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

I ain't doing shit m8.

Just kidding you're pretty spot on though.

Scolipede is pretty good for A-, which is where it should comfortably sit for now. The meta relies heavily on Landorus-T to impede or smash through teams. Being able to take on what is arguably one of Scolipede's best counters in the game while also being able to smash through a lot of its potential checks (majority of Steel-types barring a few) is something too. It's a scary lure that's difficult to stop in the traditional sense of having a Choice Scarf Pokemon go in and ravage it. Scolipede also can get a free Swords Dance on a lot of the tier right now with its decent typing something I never thought I would ever say about Bug / Poison in Pokemon. Ever.. It can set up on Tapu Fini almost freely so long as it doesn't switch into Taunt among other threats. It's also fairly bulky to take at least one priority attack on the physical side and Greninja pre-Ash is rather weak and relies on multiple (4-5 depending on damage roles) Water Shurikens to KO it. That's really intimidating for a lot of teams since balanced doesn't often run Toxapex due to being a major momentum drain and stuff like Ferrothorn is a smidgeon rarer these days (still relevant, just not on every team like say back in Gen 5). Hydro Vortex Scolipede really opens the floodgates for offensive teams because they can wreck havoc with other things like Swords Dance Garchomp, Swords Dance Landorus-T, Mega Charizard X, Thunder Punch Mega Metagross, etc.

A- has a lot of Pokemon like Scolipede that are pretty solid fits to teams and can create problems if teams don't have proper answers to them. Let me give you a hint on Hyper Offense - this isn't always the case, and stuff like Tapu Lele make it even harder to stop with Psychic Terrain on the field if the Scolipede player chooses to use it. It's played much more of a lure, but left unchecked it can smash through shit.

Lol np, thanks for the added info. Tbh I wasnt really thinking. And now I get why Scoli's typing is good in this meta. Gotta admit I slept on it so thanks to people clarifying Scoli's role in the meta for me.

 

[snaildelagate]

I know this has already been talked about but I'd like to bring up Rotom-Heat unranked -> C+/C

While Rotom-Heat suffers from a lot of competition in the meta with both Alolan-Marowak and Rotom-Wash filling up a lot of its roles. Rotom-Heat's specs set does do a lot of good work in the metagame though as it checks the slighty different pokemon than either and with good prediciton can cripple switch-ins. Rotom-Heat also forms a very solid core with Tapu Fini and Amoongus, where Tapu Fini appreciates Rotom-Heats ability to switch into Landorous-Therian EQ and Rotom-Heat appreciates the Defog Support Tapu Fini provides. Amoongus appreciates Rotom-Heats pivoting which allows it to recover HP and its ability to threaten powerful flying types. Timid max speed Rotom-Heat can come in on offensive Landorous Therian's EQ or SD and OHKOs it with Specs Overheat and OHKOs defensive Lando-T with HP Ice. Specs Rotom-Heat does get worn down by SR on the field but the support nessacary to use Rotom-Heat is worth it in many matches.

Here's the standard Specs Set.

Specs Rotom-Heat

Rotom-Heat @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Trick

Here's a match I feel demonstrates Rotom-Heats usefulness http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-520185896 and here's the team I'm running Rotom-Heat with:

Rotom-Heat Team

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 240 HP / 212 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed

Rotom-Heat @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Trick

Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Psychic
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 152 Def / 56 SpD / 52 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Taunt
- Defog

Landorus-Therian @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 24 SpD / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- U-turn

Edit: Forgot to mention that Rotom-Heat is one of the few Mega Metagross Counters that doesn't get trapped by Dugtrio

 

[WECAMEASROMANS]

i really feel like the ranking gap between Weavile and Mamoswine is far too extreme, with Weavile being all the way up in A- while Mamo is sitting down low in B-. personally, i actually feel that mamoswine is the better and more potent of the two atm, and at the very least deserves a rise up one or two subranks.

there are a myraid of new checks to weavile now which makes it struggle vs certain teams. tapu fini and magearna are the two most obvious and splashable ones that make it difficult for weavile to put in serious work, and then you have other checks like waterium-z and grassium-z manaphy/heatran which now dont care about knock off, tapu koko which outspeeds and revenges, and things like toxapex that can comfortably tank your initial knock off and then set up hazards or scald you.

mamoswine, on the other hand, is criminally underrated and and is much harder to switch in atm than weavile is given the current most popular threats in the metagame. toxapex & magearna are both very good weavile checks but both just get demolished by mamo, tapu koko obviously gets hard checked and KOed, heatran is outsped and KOed, and tapu fini isnt a good switch in at all seeing as how LO EQ just straight up 2HKOes it on the switch. currently there are a whole shitton of teams that have absolutely no good switch ins to mamo since a large percentage of players use lando-t as their physical ground resist and then have no idea wtf to do when a mamo appears.

mamo performs well vs many of the top threats in the metagame and can fire hard hitting attacks multiple times in the game if needed. outspeeding and koing popular mons such as alolan marowak, heatran, magearna, tapu bulu, magnezone, toxapex, defensive lando-t... and serving as a much needed check vs those z-fly set up mons such as dnite, mence, and double dance lando-t as well as serving as a coil zygarde killer. the waning popularity of defensive rotom-w and mega scizor are a godsend for it since those two in ORAS were some of its best switch ins.

Raise Mamoswine up please, its just as effective (even more effective imo) than Weavile is currently and their ranks should reflect that, and Mamoswine is a severely underlooked, antimetagame threat right now

 

[hecatomb]

What he was saying is that none of these Pokemon can switch into it reliably, as they either risk losing items or get 2HKOed on the switch (in Pheros case it just dies). Kartana, Celesteela, and Pheromosa can CHECK Weavile (although Pheromosa takes a ton from Ice Shard and Kartana has to be pretty healthy to take it on reliably). Mega Scizor is one of the few Pokemon that can actually truly counter Weavile because it takes nothing from Knock and resists Ice moves/coverage.

I dont know what hes talking about Pheromosa, cause she wont take any damage from Weavile,

I know her max speed is 441. Weaviles max speed is 383. So if one of your pokes die and you bring in Pheromosa next , or if you start with Pheromosa and they start with Weavile, she will kill Weavile with u-turn.

 

[Photofluid]

I dont know what hes talking about Pheromosa, cause she wont take any damage from Weavile,

I know her max speed is 441. Weaviles max speed is 383. So if one of your pokes die and you bring in Pheromosa next , or if you start with Pheromosa and they start with Weavile, she will kill Weavile with u-turn.

I think he meant phero is frail and Weavile has priority.

 

[Gary]

I dont know what hes talking about Pheromosa, cause she wont take any damage from Weavile,

I know her max speed is 441. Weaviles max speed is 383. So if one of your pokes die and you bring in Pheromosa next , or if you start with Pheromosa and they start with Weavile, she will kill Weavile with u-turn.

But I don't see how that's really relevant when no man is going to stay in 1v1 versus Phero unless it's in Ice Shard range. I just don't think it's a really good example of why Weavile should move down when all it does is check Weavile, and still has to worry about Ice Shard.

 

[Scribble]

Time for my thoughts on some nominations and some of my own. I'll start with my thoughts on the others.

B- -> Higher (B imo): Agreed. Mamoswine has always been a huge threat to switch in to, and it seems to be criminally underestimated right now. Ground/Ice is an amazing offensive typing, and Mamo has the speed to pick off some threats such as Tapu Bulu, Heatran, Lando-T, Zygarde, Amoonguss, etc. While it does have some weaknesses such as its Speed not being able to compete with Tapu Lele, a poor defensive typing, and meh bulk, it is definitely not B- material and it seems to be much more consistent than the other stuff in B-. Mamoswine has become an anti meta pick due to its offensive typing being very favorable with the omnipresence of Lando-T, the rise of Salamence, and the fact that nothing can switch into it except for maybe Tapu Fini, Ferrothorn, and phys def Celesteela, but after some chip EQ is a clean 2hko on Max HP/Def Fini, and Fini is easy to wear down. Of the Pokemon in S, A+, and A, Mamo has a good matchup vs Lando-T, Heatran, Magearna, Tapu Koko, Garchomp, Hoopa Unbound, Magnezone, Tapu Bulu, and Zygarde. All the rest bar Celesteela and Ferrothorn can't switch in on it. When something with this much damage potential is ranked alongside Latias and Breloom, it just seems a bit off.

B+ -> A-: Neutral. I have no opinion on Scolipede. I can see arguments both for and against its rise. I would be fine with either.

A- -> B+: Agreed. The shift to SM hasn't been kind to Weavile. With the introduction of Fairies everywhere, Weavile got a lot of new checks and even counters. Tapu Fini can deal with it pretty easily, the common Scarf Tapu Lele neglects Weavile's priority and outspeeds and kills, and now we have a true counter in Magearna. On top of that, Weavile offfers absolutely nothing to the team defensively, and is even Stealth Rock weak. When compared to everything in A-, they all at least have the ability to switch into something. Weavile doesn't have this ability, except a Choiced Psychic move. Speaking of abilities, all of Weavile's are useless, which is another deterrent to Weavile. All in all, Weavile doesn't have the ability to put an insane amount of Pressure on teams like it did in ORAS, and offers absolutely nothing from a defensive standpoint.

C- -> C/C+: Agreed. Primarina is extremely hard to switch into, and has an excellent typing on top of decent bulk and a good movepool. It's not as niche as the stuff in C- like Decidueye (rip that mon, had so much potential), and I would say is arguably better than some of the stuff in C and C+ like Gastrodon, Shuckle, Minior, and Mega Garchomp.

Edit: Would also support a ranking of Rotom-Heat.


Now on to a couple minor personal nominations of mine.

C -> C-: I already touched upon this in an earlier post, but it was never mentioned again due to more pressing issues. Just gonna bring it up again since absolutely nothing changed for it to get any better.

C -> C+: I have been using this mon a lot and I've had success with it. With its great Electric/Flying typing and its Volt Absorb ability, its 79/70/80 go a bit further than it would on another mon. Of course, its Rock weakness is detrimental and it faces a lot of competition from Tapu Koko. However, I do feel like this mon is being slept on. Its 101 base Speed allows its Scarf set (its best set imo, but can also run Nasty Plot/Agility) to always outspeed +1 Salamence and OHKO it with HP Ice. Its Scarf set also outspeeds Scarf Lele and can revenge kill after some chip. This thing can revenge kill a lot of different common mons in the meta such as Lando-T, Garchomp, Tapu Fini, Tapu Koko, Greninja, Celesteela, and Zard Y. It seems under-ranked in C, with trash mons like Mega Garchomp , Magneton, Shuckle, and Xurkitree. Of course, Thundurus-T has its flaws, but C rank seems too low for it.

 

[Lordemort]

B- -> B or B+ : Like previously said, Mamoswine's amazing offensive typing, coupled with it's almost unresisted stab which with a life orb does heavy damage to most of the metagame (except for certain pokemon like Rotom-Wash) and makes switch into it pretty hard, considering even pokemon like Tapu Fini and Celesteela don't take kindly an EQ or an Icicle Crash coming their way. Apart from that, it deals with common threats at the moment, such as Heatran, Salemence, Tapu Koko, Landorus - T and more, so it can function well as an anti-meta mon. Finally, it can use multiple sets alongside the "standard one" such as suicide lead w/ Endeavor, or even 4 attacks without rocks to surprise your opponents.

Overall, I feel it accomplishes its role, whether that is wallbreaking, revenge killing or setting up rocks in a more successful way than its counterparts in B- and therefore I think it could do with a rise. Agreed.

 

[DragonAscent]

View attachment 76917 C -> C+: I have been using this mon a lot and I've had success with it. With its great Electric/Flying typing and its Volt Absorb ability, its 79/70/80 go a bit further than it would on another mon. Of course, its Rock weakness is detrimental and it faces a lot of competition from Tapu Koko. However, I do feel like this mon is being slept on. Its 101 base Speed allows its Scarf set (its best set imo, but can also run Nasty Plot/Agility) to always outspeed +1 Salamence and OHKO it with HP Ice. Its Scarf set also outspeeds Scarf Lele and can revenge kill after some chip. This thing can revenge kill a lot of different common mons in the meta such as Lando-T, Garchomp, Tapu Fini, Tapu Koko, Greninja, Celesteela, and Zard Y. It seems under-ranked in C, with trash mons like Mega Garchomp , Magneton, Shuckle, and Xurkitree. Of course, Thundurus-T has its flaws, but C rank seems too low for it.

Adding to this, thundy t has a fantastic movepool, which lets it beat common electric switch-ins. Sludge wave demolishes bulu, dark pulse heavily dents alolawak, grass knot is grass knot, and focus blast 2HKOs even the most specially defensive ferrothorns:
252 SpA Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 98-116 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Compare this to koko, who's forced to either u turn away from electric checks or hit them with unboosted grass knots/hidden powers (zap plate is still the most common set, isn't it?) coming off paltry 95 special attack.

Thundy also has the option of running HP flying over HP ice to screw with venu (252 SpA Thundurus-T Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Venusaur: 104-126 (55.6 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), one of the better megas atm, but HP ice is generally better because lando is on every other OU team these days.
C+ seems fair for thundurus t.

 

[TURBODERP]

Yea, I think Mamoswine should be the same subrank as Weavile (so likely B+ for both). With Tapu Fini, Magearna, and Tapu Koko *everywhere*, Weavile is either mostly walled or outspeed and OHKO'd by the aforementioned 32 mons, while Mamoswine can break through Fini and Magearna with LO EQ and hard check Koko due to typing and not-awful bulk. Yes, Weavile is far faster, but it's much more frail, it's priority isn't as useful with Lele everywhere, and the rise of Tapu Fini really make Weavile less viable.

 

[Photofluid]

I think part of the argument of Weavile having its rank comes from the lack of competition for the niche of physical ice? If Mamo does fill that role prettily as well it makes sense to drop Weavile and rise Mamo.

 

[Gloating]

Idk if Victini has been talked about but Life Orb/Expert Belt with Blue Flare, Thunder, Focus Blast and Glaciate is pretty anti meta right now Expert Belt is probably better since the things it hits are hitting super effectively anyway. It can remove things like Tapu Lele, the water one and the grass one, it just checks a lot of things right now and can remove Greninjas counters to allow for Greninja to sweep or any other sweeper.

 

[nameless90]

Idk if Victini has been talked about but Life Orb/Expert Belt with Blue Flare, Thunder, Focus Blast and Glaciate is pretty anti meta right now Expert Belt is probably better since the things it hits are hitting super effectively anyway. It can remove things like Tapu Lele, the water one and the grass one, it just checks a lot of things right now and can remove Greninjas counters to allow for Greninja to sweep or any other sweeper.

Problem is that its base 100 Spe tier really struggles towards many high-tiered monsters (most notably Greninja) because Fire/Psychic typing, while being good offensively, it is lackluster defensively.
Also, it doesn't have reliable recovery so it is worn down easily.
The other Fire types (i.e. Heatran, Volcarona, the Charizards and A-Marowak) have or better typing or recovery.

 

[Schpoonman]

Based on the post above, Victini isn't trying to break Greninja, it's trying to break slow bulky Pokemon like Toxapex and Tapu Bulu, so its speed isn't a sticking point.

 

[AM]

I think Dugtrio should go up a rank (A-). It's a main reason as to why Stall can still do particularly well even with the amount of threats saturating the tier at this point in time. I also think its a bit more relevant than most of the B+ stuff and its role just on the stall archetype alone is huge.

I can co-sign with the Weavile drop and Mamo raise. I don't find Weavile particularly that good as much as some have tried to dispute in the last page or so? I feel like WCAR covered it pretty well in terms of the ranking gap between the two.

This might be a bit of stretch but I think regular Greninja is a good contender for S rank. It still does a lot of what it did in ORAS, if not better, and you can cater its set to do whatever you want, making it a really easy pick for a team. Normally when it comes in its able to grab a huge amount of momentum either through its offensive merits or just being arguably the best spiker in the tier and outside of Chansey, a lot of the counterplays that can potentially be used are sometimes shaky. I find it to be a much more constraining force than M-Metagross or even most of the A+ rank mons. I don't have much of an opinion on Ash Greninja as I find it to be either a huge hit against some builds or a miss so I'll leave it at that.

I'm not sure if there's actual discussion points? Seems like everyones throwing their two cents for whatever but if there's anything being considered it would be nice to read, or maybe I missed it who knows. A+ right now seems a bit sloppy, like for example Tapu Fini is such an incredible Defogger and while its win rate isn't necessarily high I haven't seen a match where it doesn't do its specific job of removing rocks while being a decent blanket check to tons of stuff. On the other hand Heatran seems a bit overhyped in A+ at least when you look at the potential for stuff like Zard-X to be A+ (personal opinion mostly). Idk, I haven't seen Heatran put a huge amount of work in a lot of games I've seen and or played.

Edit: Can ranking team add Quagsire somewhere on the list? It's unranked right now and I know there's a rule from unranked to ranked noms but I would like to think this is an exception or an oversight of not including it.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I have never had any problems with other heatran just cause I have one and a dugtrio.

But he is anti meta and nearly the soul reason why most pokemon run earthquake(for non grounds)

Celesteela is walled without quake and I don't think it has a use for it outside of a lure.

And when I see a bulky water pokemon with toxic+scald I'll switch take 32ish% and use sub cause people are expecting the bloom doom anymore and I get up rocks.

Idk it's just so easy to pair it with just about anything. Only thing the tier below that feels better or on par is garchomp

 

[Sun King]

I think Dugtrio should go up a rank (A-). It's a main reason as to why Stall can still do particularly well even with the amount of threats saturating the tier at this point in time. I also think its a bit more relevant than most of the B+ stuff and its role just on the stall archetype alone is huge.

This might be a bit of stretch but I think regular Greninja is a good contender for S rank. It still does a lot of what it did in ORAS, if not better, and you can cater its set to do whatever you want, making it a really easy pick for a team. Normally when it comes in its able to grab a huge amount of momentum either through its offensive merits or just being arguably the best spiker in the tier and outside of Chansey, a lot of the counterplays that can potentially be used are sometimes shaky. I find it to be a much more constraining force than M-Metagross or even most of the A+ rank mons. I don't have much of an opinion on Ash Greninja as I find it to be either a huge hit against some builds or a miss so I'll leave it at that.

A+ right now seems a bit sloppy, like for example Tapu Fini is such an incredible Defogger and while its win rate isn't necessarily high I haven't seen a match where it doesn't do its specific job of removing rocks while being a decent blanket check to tons of stuff. On the other hand Heatran seems a bit overhyped in A+ at least when you look at the potential for stuff like Zard-X to be A+ (personal opinion mostly). Idk, I haven't seen Heatran put a huge amount of work in a lot of games I've seen and or played.

Chunk 1: I agree with you. Dugtrio is REEEEALLY good thanks to the Atk buff it got letting it trap and kill Chansey. It's singularly responsible--in my opinion--for the dominance of Stall because of its ability to trap and kill Stall/Wallbreakers and also walls like Unaware Clef and Chansey; it also serves as a nice double switch for Skarmory because you can trap and kill Magnezone. I support a move to A- because it's not exactly niche--it has some blanket uses on Stall and also Balance; for example, it pairs really nicely with Charizard-Y, which is performing really well right now.

Chunk 2: I don't know if I agree with Greninja for S. While I agree it more or less does the exact same thing in SuMo that it did in ORAS, it's just not AS good as it was thanks to some new stuff. I think for as long as AV Magearna is around, I can't support this thing going S because that's a free nuke for them. It's not as fast as last gen; Koko pretty much on every team keeps Greninja corralled a bit. I also think that things I also think that a lot of the common Scarfers can keep it in check pretty well this meta. However, I will concede that if it's well played, it can be a tremendous force to face.

Chunk 3: I think you make a good point about Heatran. I think it's become more of a liability than it used to be this gen, and it's definitely not fair to keep it in the same company as Tapu Fini, which is fantastic. I would support a Heatran drop to A or lower because while it's still good, it's not ALWAYS able to get in and do its job like Tapu Fini.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

I would have to agree on Protean Greninja being a contender for S.

4- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 117-140 (66.4 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That calc is insane. Greninja is so hard to switch into and while nothing really changed in the meta to its favour, I think it was just underrated. Its damage is massive and its fast as hell. Its impossible to tell what Protean Gren is running and its easily as useful as something like Lando-T. There is no need for a long explanation, Gren is just strong enough at what it does to be put in the S tier.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

AV Magearna is 3HKO'd by Hydro Pump and doesn't have any form of recovery. It can switch in on most of its moves but it has a tendency to get worn down a lot so I don't think it's a solid reason for Greninja to not go S. Scarfers were around in ORAS too, as were faster pokemon (like Talonflame.)

Greninja is actually one of the most difficult mons to handle in the tier, even moreso than Mega Metagross or Ash Greninja who actually have a few consistent checks. Greninja's only drawback is that it's really frail but that doesn't stop it from outspeeding and OHKOing so much of the meta. Outside of stall, whatever team you build is weak to Greninja, there's just no good way to avoid it.

 

[psVoltage]

AV Magearna is 3HKO'd by Hydro Pump and doesn't have any form of recovery. It can switch in on most of its moves but it has a tendency to get worn down a lot so I don't think it's a solid reason for Greninja to not go S. Scarfers were around in ORAS too, as were faster pokemon (like Talonflame.)

Greninja is actually one of the most difficult mons to handle in the tier, even moreso than Mega Metagross or Ash Greninja who actually have a few consistent checks. Greninja's only drawback is that it's really frail but that doesn't stop it from outspeeding and OHKOing so much of the meta. Outside of stall, whatever team you build is weak to Greninja, there's just no good way to avoid it.

On offence at least you have a way better time trying to play around it and deal with it through offensive pressure rather than trying to lose momenum on a swtich. Theres a few greninja checks if its ash greninja, protean is just unfortunate to play against alot of the time. The gunk shot/ low kick/ ice beam set really tears through regular checks and its not really easy to scout it.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 130-153 (38.1 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

20 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 165-195 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO


4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 110-131 (32.2 - 38.4%) -- 97.3% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 164-192 (48 - 56.3%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO

Huh was super surprised by these numbers, neither have a special boosting nature but grenija out classes Pheromosa here




252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 343-406 (100.5 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

20 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 195-229 (57.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Fair enough