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So many weather teams... Is non-weather viable?

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Eleon, Jul 27, 2012.

  1. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    Yeah I think it is better if we talked about this in the metagame discussion thread. In this metagame resisting flying is useless if the pokemon is weak to fighting attacks, just look at Heatran and Tyranitar and how well they wall Tornadus-T/Tornadus-I/Staraptor. Resisting draco meteor is important, no denying that.

    Arguing that espeon and alakazam are in OU due to their abilities is agreeing with what I said, especially as these are psychic exclusive abilities. In general psychics get great abilities, compared to... fighting for example (notable fighting unique ability is guts).

    Latios/latias/starmie being better with a mono typing is not true, is it really worth not being pursuit weak (pursuit still 2hkoes) at the cost of not being able to switch into mach punches, close combats, drain punches, etc? You can argue that they are scizor prone all you want but even without the psychic typing they will never break through tyranitar with pursuit or ferrothorn unless they ran specs surf and/or hp fire respectively.

    Let's not forget that blissey would become a premium latias/latios wall (and chansey/Gastrodon/etc) if they lost psyshock. Heck even amoonguss would be able to check every move in their movepool on every set and then switch out again if its a specs d meteor for +33% (trick gives them black sludge) if they didn't have psyshock...

    In a nutshell it would be scizor/Tyranitar replaced with blissey/chansey/special walls.
  2. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    I considered writing an actual rebuttal to your post, mostly about your apparent complete lack of knowledge about Abilities and the fact that you somehow assumed that Latios and every other relevant Psychic-type isn't already stopped by Blissey or Jirachi or special walls in general when every relevant offensive Psychic is specially-based, but I really am worried about being infracted.

    Weather is centralizing and makes for a shitty metagame where you overprepare for OP threats and then some bullshit like pure physical Relic Song Meloetta shows up and you have no idea what to do about it. <-- Honestly, that's what I think of auto-weather in general.
  3. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    They're not stopped by special walls in general. Grand total of OU viable counters to Latios (common sets): 2, and thats a fact, wanna know what they are? Tyranitar and Jirachi.

    Grand total of OU viable counters to monotype Latios (similar sets): 6+, add: Specially defensive Jellicent, Amoonguss, Blissey, Chansey as well as multiple pokemon that can easily tank non specs sets that couldn't before, namely Gastrodon, Tentacruel in rain, Politoed. This is granted that you don't start running Grass Knot/Thunderbolt etc. Please tell me how these specially based walls can wall STAB psyshock :).

    My knowledge of abilities is fine, I just wanted to prove to you that psychic (both as a second type defensively and as a STAB) isn't quite as redundant as you would believe.

    OT: Non-weather is most definitely viable, its the fact that on non-weather teams you're restricted for choice as you will most definitely need at least 2 water resists and a way to manage Venusaur. It will be interesting to see if the tornados-t ban opens up some newer, more interesting strategies.
  4. Pan.

    Pan.

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    I don't care that much about weather itself. I like to be unaffected from weather, so there is a Gliscor with Sandstorm in the 4th slot, which changes the weather against weather-teams, especially Rain / Sun.

    So, once their Politoed / Ninetales is gone, I can setup Sandstorm and play careless for the rest of the match.
  5. nmitchell890

    nmitchell890

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    I made an effective DragMag team with Abomasnow to check other weathers. Abomasnow shits on rain and does massive damage to Tyranitar with Wood Hammer, while dragons generally do well in sun anyway. Abomasnow has a pretty decent Ice Shard on it too. Easily one of the best pokemon in OU imo, it can check other weathers while the opponent won't be able to turn it against you 99x out of 100, it can revenge kill dragons/therians and it can act as a pretty potent lure to quite a few pokemon (think Heatran with Earthquake and Forretress with Hidden Power Fire).
  6. Queen of Randoms

    Queen of Randoms I'm So Crown
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    Abomasnow has fallen to UU and when he was OU was certainly not one of the best Pokémon in the tier. He was/is a neat answer to weather, but hardly worth being called "one of the best". Very tough to use effectively and SR weak with a massive amount of weaknesses, one of them being to U-turn, Abomasnow is quickly worn down and beaten while offering lame stats all around. It doesn't help that his Wood Hammers give him recoil too.

    I've started running Rain stall recently and have found that if the opponent has no weather I tend to use Politoed as death fodder. I feel I can essentially beat teams 5-6 thanks to that rain support. Rain in particular really gives a ton of already great Pokémon (Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Tentacruel...) an advantage that's quite difficult to overcome without the ability to cancel Rain. I'd like to see a meta without Drizzle and see if I feel the same way about Drought. But at the moment the real concern to me and many others is that Rain is so effortlessly powerful. I think non-weather is viable, but it's very, very limited in what it's allowed to do because it needs to be so ready to function in weather, especially Rain.
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Here are my favorite Pokemon to use on weatherless teams, in no particular order:

    Latias

    Both Life Orb and Calm Mind sets are all good against pretty much every weather. Sun teams often have no solid answer to both variants, and rely on revenge killing or Roaring away the CM variant with Ninetales, so they can get their sweepers in before Latias gets a Sub. Against rain teams, Ferrothorn and Specially Defensive Jirachi are a bitch, but after weakening or eliminating those two (with another special attacker, Thundurus-T or Magnezone for example) Latias can really shine and play a major role in holding back all those strong Hydro Pump spammers. The worst matchup of Latias is versus Sand teams, as Tyranitar really puts Latias in a tough position, threatening to Pursuit her to death every time it comes in. However, Latias can still get around Tyranitar, with either the physically defensive Reflect set, or by using Reflect Type over Hidden Power Fire on the Life Orb set, which are both viable options. So all in all Latias is one of the best Pokemon to use on weatherless teams, being an excellent pivot, hard hitter (LO), and late game sweeper (CM).

    Kingdra

    Another excellent Pokemon that fares good against any weather. Kingdra can use a Rain Dance + 3 attacks special set, a Choice Specs set, and a Dragon Dance set with either Substitute + Lum Berry or Rest + Chesto Berry. Rain Dance Kingdra is the best of the three sets, and fits best on weatherless offensive teams. Against Rain teams, Kingdra serves as the cleaner, revenge killer, and sometimes even as a switch-in to Water attacks, though you should probably keep such an important Pokemon away from danger. The only common Pokemon that prevent Kingdra from doing its job are Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Amoonguss (which is almost never used on rain teams), so mainly the former two. To deal with Ferrothorn, your best bets are Magnezone, Breloom, and Fire Blast Garchomp (pretty good lure actually), or just using Pokemon that are checked by Ferrothorn, such as Choice Band Kyurem and WoW Rotom-W, so that Ferro will be weakened late game and will be unable to stop Kingdra. To deal with Celebi you can do two things... The first is to 2HKO it on the switch with Ice Beam (after SR), and the second is to muscle through it with Pokemon that once again are checked by Celebi (Thundurus-T, CM Keldeo, SD Breloom). Weavile works too, as it can Pursuit trap Celebi if it switches out, or hit it hard with Night Slash / Ice Punch. Against Sun teams all that you need to do is get a free turn. Then Kingdra basically gets one free kill, and then the opponent has to bring Ninetales in, which can't do nothing to Kingdra except from burning it, and lose momentum as Kingdra uses Rain Dance again or hits Ninetales back hard. After Ninetales dies, Kingdra can easily clean up, as long as it gets a set up chance. Against Sand teams, Kingdra's performance varies. If Ferrothorn is present, then wearing it down with the ways mentioned above is the way to go. Same with Celebi (or Amoonguss). In any other case Kingdra can directly threaten the opposing team, as neither Tyranitar nor Hippowdon like coming in against Kingdra, so once again Kingdra is a very useful Pokemon to have. The Specs set is a better revenge killer against rain teams, but lacks the cleaning potential of LO Kingdra, while threatening with serious damage Sun and Sand teams. However, its performance outside of Rain is a bit outclassed by Choice Specs Latios, so keep that in mind. I haven't used any Dragon Dance set, so no comment about them.

    Weavile

    Weavile is another Pokemon that i end up using quite often on weatherless teams, mainly Deo-D heavy offense teams, but it is viable on other kind of teams too. It can revenge kill the Chlorophyll sweepers, Thundurus-T, Dragon-types, while also being able to trap and kill key members to rain, sand, and sun teams, such as Starmie, Celebi, Xatu, and Lati@s. It is a shame that it is kind of weak and easy to wall, but that's why you have teammates right?

    Kyurem-B

    Its awesome bulk, nifty resitances, and huge power, make it a valuable asset on any weatherless team. Against rain teams it can easily get a Sub and either start blowing stuff right away, or start shuffling with Dragon Tail. Against sand teams, Kyurem-B can be a headache to wall, as such teams usually rely on revenge killing it, because the mixed sets are impossible to wall without rain up. Kyurem-B can still easily set up against the Water or Grass type that most Sand teams carry. Sun teams also despise Kyurem-B, which is bulky enough to take most hits they can throw at it, and then proceed to cause great damage. However, sun teams have many fast Pokemon, so they can usually revenge kill a weakened Kyurem-B, the only problem is wearing it down fast enough. If the sun team is lacking a Steel-type, then Choiced Kyurem-B is a menace to face.

    There are certainly more Pokemon that work well on weatherless teams, but those are the best, and the ones i find using all the time whenever i build a weatherless team.
  8. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    This this this this this. I started using the Rain Dance + 3 Attacks set a little while ago (maybe a month or two) and it has not left my teams since. The best part about it is that even those bulky Grass-types can only take so many Hydro Pumps and Draco Meteors before they too crumble, and that in the mean time a sweep is often paved for something else if Kingdra doesn't get an opportunity to come back in and sweep, which it often does thanks to its underestimated bulk and wonderful typing.

    One of his most underestimated abilities is removing beneficial weather from the opposing team. Oh, Sand Force Landorus got you down? Never fear, he just lost that 30% boost to his attacks. Worried about a Venusaur sweep? Kingdra's got your back, turning Ninetales' bright skies cloudy.
  9. asterat

    asterat

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    not viable except for full stall IMO. Xatu/Sableye/Chansey/Latias/Landorus-T/Skarmory is the only kind of weatherless I use. Even with hyper offense slapping on a scarftoed to use hurricane and thunder as well as azumarill just always seems better to me. The real problem with weatherless is that you need to run stuff to beat other weather instead of sort of checking it with your weather inducer.
  10. fire r a g e

    fire r a g e

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    I've used weatherless to great success against weather teams. My latest team utilized ScarfGar, and since no one expects him to be Scarfed, I got surprise KOs on their weather inducer with Destiny Bond.
  11. ReshiRampage

    ReshiRampage

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    I agree that weatherless is eaiser to build because you have an extra teamslot that a weather reliant team has to use for a weather-inducer. I have had better success with weatherless teams than weaher reliant teams.

    I think you should run a defensive core with a rain counter, a sun counter and a pokemon that counters the most common pokemon on weatherless teams. It has been very effective for me.
  12. DaBiggKaboom420

    DaBiggKaboom420

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    I do alright with non-weather but weather teams clearly do dominate well on showdown anyway but, idk ill be glad when 6th gen comes 5th gen is kinda disappointing as far as competitive battling goes.
  13. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    Weatherless is definitely viable. I personally love to run HO. But it's like playing with a handicap.

    Against any other weather, especially rain, it is automatically a handicap. It's literally too simple..

    • Induce Rain
    • Use Politoed as death fodder because it's essentially a piece of crap if not battling sand/sun
    • Spam Tentacruel/Ferro/Jellicent switches till your opponent is worn down with hazards + status. They are a bitch to kill with reduced damage + bolstered recovery.
    • finish off with something like Specs/Scarf Keldeo, Latios

    It also skews strategy a lot. I mean why bother trying to fit in move coverage when a specs hydro pump can literally 2HKO 90% of the metagame in the rain?

    I personally took to packing in the classic hail starmie from bw1 in my team just fuck over such people who just throw away their politoed if they see a non weather team. But then giving up an essential coverage move on a spinner is a sacrifice I am having to make on my side, and it has personally cost me quite a few matches (where I desperately needed a hydro pump spam to win) while the rain team faces little or no consequence.

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