Spe-Neutrality

Sun King

Sun King

Approved by Eevee General and The Immortal

Spe-Neutrality
Try and prioritize my attacks, FCC!
OU Based metagame​

Welcome to Spe-Neutrality! In this OM, all moves have a priority of 0. This includes moves like Protect as well as phasing moves. It also includes the abilities Prankster and Gale Wings. The goal of this metagame is to play with the "true" speed of things. Speed tiers in this metagame are the ABSOLUTE key to victory here. Things like Thundurus, Talonflame, Klefki, and Bisharp would be notably nerfed, but I think that the end result of this metagame would justify their downfall.

In this metagame, I believe that complete reliance on the speed tiers would lead to smarter counter play because you would not be able to stop a sweep in its tracks because of a priority Thunder Wave or Brave Bird. In other words, you have to be very careful with your plays, or you will find yourself swept by Dragon Dancers and Agility sweepers.

Here are a few things I think will be major threats…

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Holy hell. After one Dragon Dance and Stealth Rocks, you can proceed to systematically whittle away at the opponent with Roar. Since it has Mold Breaker, it bypasses all abilities that negate/reflect Roar. After either KO'ing the opponent or weakening them to a certain point, it can simply sweep with Waterfall or Crunch. I suspect this will end up broken and banned, but we'll see.

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Similar to the above threat, Aerodactyl is fast enough to Roar through a lot of teams until it can pick off Pokemon that are weakened enough. I think this is manageable for the metagame because Magic Bounce, Suction Cups, and Soundproof are full stops to Roar spam.

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M-Lop is insanely fast, and now that Talonflame can't Brave Bird it to death, hard to revenge KO. You'll need to prepare for this threat either by scarfed Fighting moves (also an answer to M-Gyarados *wink wink*), or having a defensive full-stop to it. Additionally, if you let it M-Evolve, it has Scrappy and can hit EVERYTHING with a fast Circle Throw. It very possibly could weaken teams to a point where it can clean up with Return or HJK. Be careful around this. Potentially broken but we'll see.


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Say hello to your best friend against phasing. You'll probably want a Magic Bouncer on your team in order to ruin opposing "phase-sweepers". This guy's the bulkiest one.
Last Minute Clarifications:

-Protect and Magic Coat will only work if you are faster than the opponent.
-Counter/Mirror Coat will rely on you being slower than the opponent
-Dragon Tail, Whirlwind, and Roar are all reliant on the user's speed tier
-Prankster and Gale Wings now do nothing
-OU Clauses
-Switching and Mega Evolving remain the same as before

I hope you all have fun with this metagame :)

Sun King out.
 
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Welp, RIP Birdspam.

Offence in general takes a hit actually because revenge killing is now made so much harder. Talonflame, Mamoswine, Weavile, Dragonite etc., pretty much all of those are made much less effective. I can definitely see Mega Beedrill being a damn big threat in the meta; without priority the only things that can really stop it U-turning are MAero, MZam and some Scarfers.

Rock Polishers and Dragon Dancers will be really stupid. In particular, there's few things to stop Charx now -- Hippowdon is the best counter that immediately comes to mind.
 
LightningLord2 said:
Noivern, Mega-Aerodactyl, Crobat, Swellow... Hello, Phazing: The Metagame
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Maybe Soundproof and Suction Cups will have a great niche now. Not to mention Magic Bounce being way greater.

Anyway this will really be THE metagame for the quick Pokemon. Offense will focus way more on speed, while defensive teams will have to carry something speedy as well to revenge stuff. Only pure stall teams can afford not to have that. Due to the lack of priority, the high speed and power Pokemon are hard to revenge, so offense will need good ways to deal with them. Either just as quick Pokemon or a Scarf.

Also Focus Punch for things like Lopunny. 150 BP move if you outspeed the opponent or he uses status or misses.
 
A metagame defining threat that definitely takes a big hit is Thundurus. One of it's biggest claims to fame is a priority T-wave, but losing that means losing a certain niche. Nasty Plot sets definitely seem like they'll rise in usage now; hell, maybe even Thundurus-T.

Non-Mega Sableye now has no niche, and Mega Sableye doesn't enjoy losing the first turn priority burn.

Klefki is dead.

lol @ mega banette
 
I wouldn't really hype up Mega Lopunny too hard considering that one of the major reasons why it's so effective and easy to mega evolve is based on a priority move, Fake out. So it's gonna be taking the brunt of hits against Offense quite easily and as such loses one of the main tools it has against offense in general.

Also to my understanding you just made Trick Room have a priority of 0, so this aspect of fast paced offense is now a double edged sword where on the offensive side of things you will face Trick Room teams that will now dominate due to lack of priority or high fast paced teams. So basically you made Trick Room viable, which also amplifies the builds of more bulky offense and defensive cores. Rain is pretty much free wins against a majority of teams because offense already has issues with it and relies on priority and certain type synergy to not get floored by it.

The speed control is just going to foster less lazy offensive teams that maximize on priority which I do think is nice, sort of brings back that old gen feel where there wasn't such a huge emphasis on priority moves and more so speed.
 
Another threat I thought would be pretty great is Automize Mega Aggron. At +2 Jolly, he sits at 436 Speed. That's pretty much only outsped by M-Aero and M-Alakazam and you can hit both of those with Thunder Wave. After setting up, you can pretty much Dragon Tail the metagame. Any Fairy mons are slammed by Iron Head/Tail.
 
Magic Bounce is going to be necessary for fast Whirlwind spam. As a result of this, I can see fast Circle Throw or Dragon Tail users becoming common as well. (Of course, all these can be avoided by Suction Cups.)

Druddigon, Haxorus, Mega Gyarados, and Pangoro (Parting Shot, anyone?) get Mold Breaker phazing, also.
 
Finally a meta without fucking Extreme Speed spam.

Oh, and perhaps Aegislash can be unbanned? With +0 priority King's Shield and Shadow Sneak, I suspect that it will have more difficulty standing up to offense, at least outside of Trick Room.

Mawile, without Sucker Punch, might be worth looking at as well. That being said, both of these would be terrifying in Trick Room.
 
Right, so if phazing becomes a massive trend, I can see Absol and Diancie among the most used Megas on offence. Both get Magic Bounce, a damn good base speed with offensive stats and boosting moves (SD and RP, respectively), allowing them to basically set up all over stall. Hell, priority is probably the biggest problem for the two. Diancie doesn't have to fear Scizor or Meta, Absol doesn't have to fear... every priority in the game. Of course, it does lose out on Sucker Punch, but that might just let it run something else...

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Absol @ Absolite
Justified
Naive Nature
252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spd
-Swords Dance
-Knock Off
-Play Rough
-Fire Blast/Ice Beam

Unfortunately, Landorus-Therian is still a big massive problem. Still fast as hell with Scarf, still U-turns everything, still annoying.
Oh shit, Landorus-Incarnate becomes even worse because what on earth revenge kills it now after an RP?
 
Wow, your cute little Magic Bouncers are really nice! Until Mega Gyara gets a Dragon Dance up. When that happens, your entire team is fucked. Basically, do not let MGyara DD with Rocks up or it will Roar/Dragon Tail your team to death.
 
Ban PHazing please.

Protect sucks. Detect is horrible. King's Shield is worse. Spiky Shield is stupid. I think you can afford to unban Aegislash, as it can't turn back into Shield form unless it outspeeds (which it won't). Also, Blaziken could be unbanned, as it can't get off that first protect in safety.

Also, Trick Room looks like a lethal force here.
 
As AM said rain is probably going to be a very noteworthy threat in this meta, as Swift Swim basically allows you to outpace everything. Mega Swampert happens to have Swift Swim and Roar, as well as a massive attack stat, allowing it to quickly phaze most things and smack other stuff really hard with attacks.
 
On the subject of rain, is Kabutops particularly useful on rain anymore? One of it's big claims to fame over Swampert was the resistance to flying priority.
 
Being resistant to Flying priority was just an aspect to Rain. It wasn't and shouldn't be your sole answer to Talonflame on rain teams anyways. Most sets don't even rely on priority more so the power and speed of Swift Swim that it has. It's still good and I would argue even better because priority users fail to get the jump on it, think Bisharp and Conkeldurr.
 
I think this meta boosts balance the most since it can survive the sweepers and can use all the offense it wants to take down balks and fast mons.
 
NOCturnal Hunter said:
Also, Blaziken could be unbanned, as it can't get off that first protect in safety.
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If it does live that first turn, though, it's gonna be hella difficult to revenge. At +1, if it's Jolly, it's outspeeded by Mega Beedrill, Ninjask, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Alakazam, and >base-100 scarfers. At +2, it's base-123-or-more and a scarf. I'm okay with it being unbanned, but it should be watched.

For real though, Trick Room. Is there any way for fast offense to deal with Trick Room besides not letting it set up? Stall, if it stays viable after losing Protect, probably won't terribly mind TR being set, bulky offense can probably go toe to toe with it, and balanced should be running some way of handling it, but I can see fast teams not doing a whole hell of a lot for five turns if Trick Room goes up.
 
I am not sure about unbanning Blaziken. If it gets just one Speed Boost, it can Roar spam the opponent to death. All it needs is a Choice Scarf to weaken/sweep teams, to be honest.

Aegislash and Mega Mawile I'd consider unbanning because their speed tier isn't good unless under Trick Room. Aegislash would DEFINITELY be easier to play around because King's Shield is pretty useless in this metagame.

I think I'd like to see the metagame develop before I unban anything.

Probably the single most counter play move in the game is going to be Taunt. If you can Taunt the opponent, they can't phase you. I am definitely not banning phasing moves. M-Gyarados and Haxorus might get the boot if they centralize the tier. So long as there are viable counter-strategies, I'm keeping as much of this metagame intact as possible.

EDIT: Mega Beedrill is gonna be shit in this metagame because it's never going to Mega Evolve. It has to use its base form stats that first turn, and those stats will be more of a liability on any team than any benefit its mega offers.

P.P.S. Torment is also something that could see a bunch of usage to stop Phase-Spamming.
 
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Sun King said:
I am not sure about unbanning Blaziken. If it gets just one Speed Boost, it can Roar spam the opponent to death. All it needs is a Choice Scarf to weaken/sweep teams, to be honest.

Aegislash and Mega Mawile I'd consider unbanning because their speed tier isn't good unless under Trick Room. Aegislash would DEFINITELY be easier to play around because King's Shield is pretty useless in this metagame.

I think I'd like to see the metagame develop before I unban anything.

Probably the single most counter play move in the game is going to be Taunt. If you can Taunt the opponent, they can't phase you. I am definitely not banning phasing moves. M-Gyarados and Haxorus might get the boot if they centralize the tier. So long as there are viable counter-strategies, I'm keeping as much of this metagame intact as possible.

EDIT: Mega Beedrill is gonna be shit in this metagame because it's never going to Mega Evolve. It has to use its base form stats that first turn, and those stats will be more of a liability on any team than any benefit its mega offers.

P.P.S. Torment is also something that could see a bunch of usage to stop Phase-Spamming.
Click to expand...
If you're not banning phazing, I'm bringing my mono-Regenerator team and say "screw you Roar 8D" and just add in a Defog user somewhere. Seriously, phazing is THAT bad.

Also, Dragon Tail and Circle Throw NEED to go before Roar and Whirlwind. They are guaranteed to plague the metagame no doubt.

Torment is bad and should never be considered lol. Ingrain might be worth using, however. I really think Ferrothorn will be the #1 wall here, since nothing breaks it after Ingrain. It even sets up hazards as well.
 
My issue with Ingrain is that what you're doing is allowing people to find a counter to ingrain users, so for Ferrothorns case Charizard-X, who just spends its time setting up on it because you can just run a basic set of STAB, Sub, Dragon Dance. Priority to threaten it is now off the table so you need to be using Trick Room and big surprise this won't happen if you ingrained your mon into the field and they set up enough to the point they clean the team. Then you take into account that you've just let something behind a Substitute, who doesn't get phased by attacking phasing moves until the sub is broken btw, and is now at a high enough speed tier to not care about your mega aerodactyl phasing it out. I honestly think suction cup or any sort of ability to stay on the field is an awful idea to utilize, unless it's like Magic Bounce which isn't exactly what I'm referring to. That's like limiting the amount of counter play you have available to you and enhancing the opponents lol.

Also I'd argue that Dragon Tail and Circle Throw isn't as bad as Roar and Whirlwind because you have like only a handful of Magic Bouncers that can block the moves and effect much more while both Dragon Tail and Circle Throw have their respective immunities with Circle Throw primarily found on a lot more slower fighting Pokemon and Dragon Tail users mostly succumbing to its main Dragon immune typing, Fairy.

Edit: Forgot something about Suction Cup and fixed.
 
i honestly cant think of anything that can handle DD roar haxorus (or roar mb in general, haxorus is afaik the fastest user) without resorting to anything outlandish like ingrain (which btw can be easily handled with proper team support since thats the only shit you really need to be worried off). on the same vein, full regenerator teams flat out lose to toxic spikes, and you can use bullshit like having scolipede set them up and then baton pass speed boosts to haxorus or mgyara and go to town. edit: nvm im retarded forgot abt guss

its literally gg for the opponent if he's facing down haxorus with +2 speed because the only things that outrun it is +1 aerodactyl/alakazam/ninjask, and its not really too bad to handle given that ninjask (yeah not kidding, ninjask) outruns every scarfer at +1 so if he can get a free turn he can literally just protect for the +2 and then go to haxorus.
 
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On second thought, I think that while Swift Swim is a potentially devastating ability in this meta, rain teams won't get a chance to shine. They're losing one of their key members in Klefki, so those last ditch Rain Dances aren't going to happen. Rain's really going to revolve around keeping your Politoed healthy. I guess people could try to substitute Prankster Rain Dance with a really high Spe Rain Dance (see--Accelgor, Electrode, Jolteon--although I think that's likely just crap), but my gut is telling me Rain as a play style will be nerfed thanks to Klefki losing Prankster shenanigans.
 
Thought about Clefable just now, it doesn't seem too bad because it's immune to hazards and Dragon Tail. I don't really know how one might properly utilize it though.
 
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