Razor fang was unaffected by haxmons iircThis happened in Haxmons when it was OMotM too, don't worry.
Razor fang was unaffected by haxmons iircThis happened in Haxmons when it was OMotM too, don't worry.
I forget which was which, but one added the secondary effect of flinching, while the other raised crit rate.Razor fang was unaffected by haxmons iirc
neither one was affected by haxmonsI forget which was which, but one added the secondary effect of flinching, while the other raised crit rate.
One was completely useless, the other completely broken, and the wrong one was banned alongside king'so rock.
None of that priority OHKOs whereas Togekiss does in return or just saps a ton of HP with Oblivion Wing and heals itself. For Heatran, CB is wrecked by +2 Aura Sphere. A specially defensive spread running Gear Grind could do it I suppose.Priority is EVERYWHERE and Togekiss lacks it. That says a LOT.
84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 204-242 (54.6 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 198-237 (53 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 106-126 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 211-250 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 176-210 (47.1 - 56.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 174-211 (46.6 - 56.5%) -- 78.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 172-203 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 40.6% chance to 2HKO
Chansey is only one dedicated counter D: Should I have to run Chansey on every team to prepare for this?Well, this is out of the blue.
Togekiss is certainly one of the better Special Setup mons out there.
But as mentioned, Chansey gives it a headache. Even after burning Power Herb, Togekiss struggles to break Chansey.
Whereas Chansey can do numerous things in return: Heal back the low damage, Toxic it, Transform-Sweep, Setup SR, Slow Baton Pass to a Fake Speeder or banded Scizor and most importantly, force it to switch after wasting a Power Herb, making it substandard for the rest of the match.
Heatran is a shaky check. The niche Shift Gear Heatran can threaten a sweep on its face.
The most predictable thing about it is that it will always attempt to setup Geomancy on its first turn out.
I'm neutral about a Ban though. I wouldn't mind it, but let's wait for more arguments.
Mainly:I don't have much to say about the matter at the moment, except I don't see what Togekiss has that other set-up sweepers don't have that makes it broken.
Um, unbanning Lucarionite is not an option and it has nothing to do with a Togekiss suspect.Well, I'd say that to get toge banned you'd have to use the same reasoning as greninja's/lucario's ban. It can kill any(except chansey) "counters" by running a different move. Except we've already established that that reasoning doesn't work here(diggersby who is more dangerous(except that not everyone runs toge checks) greninja who is not as good as in standard). Some of these "counters" include heatran and aegislash. My personal opinion is that:
If we ban it we must ban diggs but if we don't ban it we must unban lucarionite.
Edit: banner is outdated. plz change it to say "STABMONS ORAS"
Posting a wall of calcs is meaningless when Aegislash and Heatran don't run priority often, and Mamoswine and Weavile are just not used ever. Seriously, does anyone run Choice Band Heatran outside of a gimmick-like role? Sure, you can cherry pick the calcs, but you neglect to mention that, in return, Togekiss can use Oblivion Wing and turn many of these 2HKOes into 3HKOes or even 4HKOes because of the residual damage. Posting these calcs are like posting Pokemon that can live a Greninja's Ice Beam -- there's a lot of them, but that doesn't prove anything.Priority is EVERYWHERE and Togekiss lacks it. That says a LOT.
84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 204-242 (54.6 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 198-237 (53 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 106-126 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 211-250 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 176-210 (47.1 - 56.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 174-211 (46.6 - 56.5%) -- 78.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 172-203 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 40.6% chance to 2HKO
Once again, these are literally two viable Gear Grind users. Posting a calc of Heatran using Gear Grind does not prove anything and doesn't show that Togekiss is any less worse. This is basically just "Togekiss has weaknesses and therefore is not broken," which is completely false.Being a Sub user weak to Gear Grind (the most powerful Physical Steel move which can and WILL break this thing's Sub) also doesn't do it any favors.
84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 508-604 (136.1 - 161.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 500-592 (134 - 158.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Heatran Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 208-252 (55.7 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Yeah, I'm saying that Gear Grind Heatran should be a thing. So what?)
252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 436-520 (116.8 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The only real problem on this is Seismic Toss, which I haven't seen too often lately. Substitute Togekiss can muscle past Chansey by setting up to get to a +6 and then recovering huge chunks with Oblivion Wing. It may be hard, but any Chansey lacking Seismic Toss is beaten by Togekiss. Baton Pass, sure, but if you set up a Substitute on that turn then Togekiss won't really care.But as mentioned, Chansey gives it a headache. Even after burning Power Herb, Togekiss struggles to break Chansey.
Whereas Chansey can do numerous things in return: Heal back the low damage, Toxic it, Transform-Sweep, Setup SR, Slow Baton Pass to a Fake Speeder or banded Scizor and most importantly, force it to switch after wasting a Power Herb, making it substandard for the rest of the match.
If you've Geomancy'd as it comes in, Heatran is OHKOed by Aura Sphere at +2. Aura Sphere Togekiss is more common, I believe, because Flying / Fighting is excellent coverage. If it Shift Gears, and Togekiss Geomancy's, then it comes to what nature both are running. Togekiss outspeed anything when using the same nature as the other, so if Togekiss is running Modest and Heatran is running Adamant, then Heatran gets outsped by Togekiss and OHKOed.Heatran is a shaky check. The niche Shift Gear Heatran can threaten a sweep on its face.
However, it could Substitute as well. Predictably isn't a bad thing per say, as long as the Pokemon can use the predictably to its advantage.The most predictable thing about it is that it will always attempt to setup Geomancy on its first turn out.
This makes no sense at all... Why would we unban a Pokemon based on another's brokeneness? That's like unbanning Arceus-Steel because Mega Salamence was strong as well. Then there's the whole "we ban Greninja, we ban Landorus-T as well" argument in this post, which doesn't make sense.Well, I'd say that to get toge banned you'd have to use the same reasoning as greninja's/lucario's ban. It can kill any(except chansey) "counters" by running a different move. Except we've already established that that reasoning doesn't work here(diggersby who is more dangerous(except that not everyone runs toge checks) greninja who is not as good as in standard). Some of these "counters" include heatran and aegislash. My personal opinion is that:
If we ban it we must ban diggs but if we don't ban it we must unban lucarionite.
Edit: banner is outdated. plz change it to say "STABMONS ORAS"
Um, unbanning Lucarionite is not an option and it has nothing to do with a Togekiss suspect.
Do you think Adaptability Doom Desire (which I mentioned in STABmons+) coupled with Secret Sword and its other moves is healthy for this metagame? I sincerely hope you're joking.
I would like to say that when I posted the thing I was tired from school so some things were said on impulse(mainly the things about lucarionite).This makes no sense at all... Why would we unban a Pokemon based on another's brokeneness? That's like unbanning Arceus-Steel because Mega Salamence was strong as well. Then there's the whole "we ban Greninja, we ban Landorus-T as well" argument in this post, which doesn't make sense.
You are free to run something like Cosmic Power + Stored Power Unaware Clefable. It's just that Chansey has more utility. Plus Togekiss doesn't get past a Sableye that uses DB (Which is niche, but it's there).Again, must I run Chansey on every team to prepare for Togekiss?
Do most Geokiss actually run Modest Max Sp Atk? I run 60 Sp Atk so I can OHKO heatran, but I run 244/204+ for my Geokiss' physical bulk as I'm gaining in Sp Atk, Sp Def and speed, preveting me being threatened by powerful physical priority.You are free to run something like Cosmic Power + Stored Power Unaware Clefable. It's just that Chansey has more utility. Plus Togekiss doesn't get past a Sableye that uses DB (Which is niche, but it's there).
252+ SpA Togekiss Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 105-124 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- 24.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
The primary argument I have against its ban is that its a one-hit wonder. If something like the above example or a Specially Defensive Heatran Roars it out after burning Power Herb, it has a very low utility the next time it comes out. More often than not, when you see a Clefable setup Cosmic Power, you're going to have to switch right away to avoid a sweep.
And how do you deal with Clefable? And tf, no Togekiss runs HP Ground.Do most Geokiss actually run Modest Max Sp Atk? I run 60 Sp Atk so I can OHKO heatran, but I run 244/204+ for my Geokiss' physical bulk as I'm gaining in Sp Atk, Sp Def and speed, preveting me being threatened by powerful physical priority.
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 244 HP / 208+ Def Togekiss: 252-296 (67.7 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That was the hardest hitting Priority I could find and you still get off 80% or so with a simple oblivion wing, so some prior damage and it's good to go.
Edit: +2 60 SpA Togekiss Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 292-348 (75.8 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and a Guarenteed when they switch into Oblivion Wing and don;t expect HP Ground - what I gave my comment
Scald Prediction OP. Actually, I might be tempted to run Setup Digger again for ORAS.
Once again, I think it has to do with priority. Deoxys-S dies to pretty much all Priority good enough in STABmons.What's your standard Mega Aerodactyl set?
Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Rock Head -> Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 96 Def / 160 Spe or 182 Atk / 96 Def / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Diamond Storm
- Roost
- Taunt / Earthquake
The first set of EVs allow Mega Aero to outspeed Mega Pidgeot. The second allows regular Aerodactyl to outspeed Thundurus prior to mega evolving. If you want to outspeed Mega Pidgeot prior to mega evolving you have to drop Adamant, which isn't advised because of what this set does. Ideally, with 96 Def EVs you can survive LO FakeSpeed from Adamant Diggersby after Stealth Rock, Roost up or just OHKO with Dragon Ascent. The EVs also allow you to switch into Diggersby's Knock Off and live a follow up Espeed also with Stealth Rock up.
--
Now here's a little anti-meta.
Deoxys-Speed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Modest Ability
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Trick / Magic Coat (without Specs)
- Filler
This set still needs work, but it's a bit of theorymon to beat common leads. Modest Specs is necessary to OHKO Mega Aero with Psycho Boost, which you handily outspeed in any scenario with 252 Speed. Ice Beam sends Landorus-T packing, even without Specs so long as you're Modest. Trick says lol to Chansey (not a lead I know but it stops Deoxys otherwise.) Sableye, well, a Specs set can't really handle Sableye, which is why you can forgo that item and run Magic Bounce to rebound its Taunt/DV/WOW/etc. Non-Specs sets can also run Taunt and hazards and will keep some Defoggers at bay with the threat of Ice Beam.
Begin rant:
Essentially, Deoxys-Speed is very customizable. I don't think I've ever seen it. We have this tendency in STABmons to focus on what each Pokemon gains rather than what's already good. I often find standard OU sets outperforming common STABmon sets, like Sableye for example. Lately I've been running all standard moves to great success, mostly because DV and PS are so predictable. Heatran is still a good stallbreaker. Tyranitar is still a good Pursuit trapper. Keldeo is still a good Calm Minder. Obviously there are roles that this metagame has that standard OU could only dream about (Diggersby or Landorus-T with flying STAB), but at the same time, there are archetypes that do well in any meta. Deoxys-Speed is versatile and good at what it does. Let's see how good it can be in STABmons now.
/end rant
Yeah but. So does Thundurus and it's S rank. Priority keeps a lot of things from excelling, but the things Deoxys wants to curtail aren't using it (minus Prankster Sableye which is why you pack Magic Coat.) Its goal is to outspeed leads and KO them first or act as a hazard setter/Taunter against walls and punish Defoggers with Ice Beam/Psycho Boost. Let's not dismiss Pokemon on the grounds of "Priority kills it" so easily. I think our mentality of Priority Rules! is keeping us from exploring other options. This isn't to say I'm ignoring how good priority is, rather it's a criticism of our mindset that's preventing us from even trying.Once again, I think it has to do with priority. Deoxys-S dies to pretty much all Priority good enough in STABmons.
I'd love to see more variety too. Maybe in STABmons UU.
Espeon is 2HKOed by Sableye using Knock Off with little to no investment in Attack. Whereas Thunduru's claim to fame is stopping Sableye, Chansey AND Quagsire in their tracks: Basically a huge middle finger to Stall. Deoxys is definitely not as effective.Yeah but. So does Thundurus and it's S rank. Priority keeps a lot of things from excelling, but the things Deoxys wants to curtail aren't using it (minus Prankster Sableye which is why you pack Magic Bounce.) Its goal is to outspeed leads and KO them first or act as a hazard setter/Taunter against walls and punish Defoggers with Ice Beam/Psycho Boost. Let's not dismiss Pokemon on the grounds of "Priority kills it" so easily. I think our mentality of Priority Rules! is keeping us from exploring other options. This isn't to say I'm ignoring how good priority is, rather it's a criticism of our mindset that's preventing us from even trying.