Metagame STABmons

[EV]

Considering the base Pokemon remains Necrozma, I'm inclined to believe so. It currently does get those moves, so why change it? I'd like to imagine that if Kyurem changed typings, it would have that treatment as well.
Note that the teambuilder was updated to include all STAB-legal moves in STABmons (thanks Kris!).

Yeah, I saw this! Praise Kris!

(You get one.)

 

[EV]

I'm lazy af and I don't want to dig around for the On the Radar template, so . . .

Betathunder and I are looking more closely at the following Pokemon/moves. Consider this an official discussion on whether or not these elements are healthy for the STABmons metagame.

1) Mega Lopunny

2) Diggersby

3) Porygon-Z

4) Spore

5) Rotom-A (or any combination of individual forms)


We'll make a decision 1 week from today. Maybe expect some suspect tours in Neon Town. Thanks!

 

[Jrdn]

Ranking them in order from most destructive to the metagame vs least destructive + How I'd deal with each.

1) Porygon-Z: I've discussed how absurdly broken this Pokemon is before. The only hope you have is spdef ttar facing non-judgement sets, or ghost types, of which there's only a couple prevalent ones. This is the first thing I would look at for banning: Quick-Ban

2) Diggersby: While I personally don't think it's as broken as others, I can't deny the fact that Huge Power + Normal typing is a huge boon for any pokemon in stabmons. With protective pads as well, it becomes a fearsome threat that can 2hko a ton of supposed switch-ins: Suspect

3) Rotom-A: It's kind of stupid right? I tell myself this when I'm getting blown back by a blue-flare Rotom-W. It's probably a little bit too accessible, and the host of moves it can use makes it kind of noncompetitive. It's impossible to predict it, so you just have to bring a spdef mon with safety goggles, or a mega sableye or something: Suspect

4) Spore: I don't like 100% sleep moves. That being said, I think if Rotom goes, Spore isn't that big of an issue. Grass types should be able to deal with the remaining spore users for the most part, and I've used Safety goggles very effectively before. Also Misty terrain is a thing too: Nothing

5) Mega-Lopunny: It's not broken. It's already fast, so ESpeed isn't nearly as destructive as it would be on something like Diggersby, and it lacks killing power with it's coverage moves. Buzzwole, Slowbro, any phys-def mon will handle it pretty easily. I don't see a huge issue with it. Obviously Scrappy helps it kill Doublade/Sabelyes, which is helpful for it, but It's not enough to put it over the edge: Nothing

 

[Whitephoenixace]

Good that these mons are being brought to the attention to the masses.

Now I cant properly list in order what is actually straining the meta more (id more so do it based on how much times they made me mad facing them at which point id put diggersby at the top), so ill just list as originally stated

1. Mega lopunny: Honestly mlop is quite strong in the meta with it getting sd,espeed and also sometimes abusing some mons recovering or setting up infront of it with encore, but I genuinely feel it isn't too heavily worth a ban, honestly even with sd the things damage cant sometimes be really underwhelming vs some notable high def mons like buzzwole and slowbromega as jrdn had previously stated. To add to the list landorus also somewhat deals with it well considering it gets beak blast to burn it when it atks lando thus crippling the mlop even if it may have ice punch to secure a kill on it, and if doesn't have ice punch, dies straightaway to beak blast if it tries to stay in. Normal fighting with scrappy is admittedly excellent and perfect coverage but honestly if u can tank its already high dmg hjk with something that resists it ur basically set to take mlop down. I admit that I may not be seeing its real broken power but honestly in my use and being against that of mlop it strong but not to the level of being broken against a properly built team.

2. see post #568

3.pz really is nasty to wall properly , and forces u to run stuff such as ttar, heatran or mag to properly deal with and ttar in reality is the only real one that can reliably deal with it in most cases (as long as its not judgment with the right plate) since it has reliable recovery. And that's especially concerning considering:
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 163-192 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 154-182 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

And though av mag instead takes about 30% , u now have a mag without any form of reliable recovery as it now has to try and tank the onslaught of boomburst as the opponent can simply swap back out and reek havoc again. It also has a few download sets it abuses with espeed

4.Tbh same with jrdn if tom left it would become less annoying (though I still hate seeing it overall on grass types). Cant discuss much on this without me just sounding salty.

5. Ngl rotom is really a wuierd one in terms of its bannability. It doesn't have a lot of raw power and defenses , but it has just enough to be annoying with it being able to pull off a lot of sets and be pretty much unpredictable in terms of what it may have unless ur somehow of such an intellect that u can deduce exactly what it is or has. Electric, water, fire, flying, ghost,ice, grass all provide enough stuff for its movepool to lean in directions such as scarfer, specs, or support the team as a defogger that can have spore, wow, strength sap, beak, blast, etc. Frankly its strain on the meta is more so stemming from its unpredictable nature as opposed to it being powerful overall and it makes it annoying when switching into it as the opponent may have read u right and it may have just so happen to carry the right coverage to tackle what u just sent out. At best only high sp.def normal types deal with it such as chansey or type null and that's if it isn't running trick to cripple ur wall.

 

[skies]

Lopunny-Mega is not broken. I do not think it's overbearing on teambuilding nor the metagame. Lopunny-M is easy to stop with physical walls such as Tangrowth, Venusaur-Mega, and Slowbro. All of which are common, so you aren't forced to run random niche Pokemon to counter it. Landorus-T being the most common thing in the tier also halts this pretty well. Ice Punch does a shitton, but it doesn't want to risk the burn from Beak Blast anyways. As Jrdn said, Extreme Speed isn't too much because of Lopunny-M's insane Speed anyways. Yes, Scrappy FakeSpeed is strong, but Lopunny-M isn't too strong. I think it's a top tier threat so I will not discredit it at all, that isn't the point. Simply put, it's not too hard to handle on standard builds and isn't pushed over the edge by newfound access to moves. Therefore, I would like to second the notion to do nothing.

Diggersby. The premier controversial bunny. I've never found Diggersby to be broken in this metagame. Protective Pads was a neat addition, but sacrificing power for them is always a drawback, and besides that not much has changed besides metagame trends which make Diggersby worse in my opinion. Greninja-A is as strong as ever, and a lot of teams will run Grass-types to stop it (and Keldeo, and other Water-types!), and the most common ones stop Diggersby. For example, Tangrowth, which can take a Choice Band Extreme Speed easily, and can live a +2 Extreme Speed with comfort and retaliate with Giga Drain / Seed Flare. Tangrowth is just one example, but I don't find Diggersby to be overbearing. Obviously it's something to account for when you're teambuilding, but I've never found myself in a situation where using normal, common Pokemon left me vulnerable to Diggersby. Landorus-T fits so naturally on every team and it halts Diggersby not wielding Protective Pads, for example. I just don't find this Pokemon to be broken at all. I think it's the best FakeSpeeder, however, but it's still not too much in a tier where Landorus-T is the most common Pokemon and it's somewhat slow in terms of FakeSpeeding (both Porygon-Z and Lopunny-M outspeed it), I would lean towards doing nothing, for the time being. Should Lopunny-M be suspected / banned, then it would deserve a look at, but for the moment, no.

I do think that Porygon-Z deserves to be banned more than anything else on that list. Adaptability Boomburst is so insanely powerful that you better pray that you don't lose Celesteela too early. When you consider that Timid Choice Specs sets 2HKO Chansey, Heatran, Ferrothorn (after two rounds of Stealth Rock / any other chip, but still has a 25% chance after just a switch with Stealth Rock up), Tyranitar (not SpD variants!), and the aforementioned Celesteela, you realize there's an issue. All of these Pokemon are strong special walls that keep most Special Attackers in check, but not Porygon-Z. It's even crazier when you think about how only Chansey, of the Pokemon I've listed, resist Boomburst. Your best bet is to have a Ghost-type, of which only Mimikyu and Gengar are viable. Marowak-A, too, but that hasn't been used since the start of SM. Regardless, all of these Ghost-types are easy to wear down and check with other Pokemon, and you can simply eliminate them with your own Tyranitar (not Mimikyu). Having a Ghost-type forces Porygon-Z to think before clicking Boomburst, but that isn't always enough. I think that Porygon-Z is overcentralizing and overpowered to a point where it's so hard to play against that it's broken. You have to consider two team slots on a team to checking it, or just running your own Scarved Porygon-Z and praying for a good speed tie, that I think this should go. It also has a multitude of options from its own powerful FakeSpeed or coverage through the roof. This thing deserves to be banned.

I think Rotom-W isn't inherently broken, but it is just too versatile and strong that makes it too hard to prepare for in teambuilding. Notice how I am only mentioning Rotom-W, as the other Rotom formes, bar Rotom-H, aren't viable in my opinion. Rotom-C may have a niche, but I've not once seen it be used. So I'm only going to mention Rotom-W, the most common, and best, Rotom forme. Anyways, back to the main point. Rotom-W has unmatched versatility, pivoting capability, and the ability to neuter a lot of Pokemon with Spore. I'll touch more on Spore in my next paragraph, but it really does make Rotom-W one of the most difficult Pokemon to effectively stop. It's so effective at doing its job, it's actually crazy. With reliable recovery in Roost or Strength Sap, it's incredibly hard to stop Rotom-W. However, I'm still not sure if it deserves to be banned. It's crazy versatile, solidly bulky, and decently strong, but it's just... not what I think of when I think of when needs to be banned in a practical sense. I can't formulate my thoughts well right now and put it into words, but I'd like to see this suspected before taking more action. I'm interested in seeing both sides to this perspective since I think I could be easily swayed either way with a bit of convincing, since I'm torn myself. Though, I'm leaning towards banning Rotom-W only. Not Rotom-H or any other Rotom forme. They are not as good as Rotom-W, and I think banning them would be unfair. Only Rotom-W can utilize all the tools its given to an extent where it's considered questionable, so it should be the only to go.

Now, Spore. Spore is not broken. Bottom line, cut and dry. I've talked about my thoughts on Spore here, and my opinion hasn't changed much. Here's the main point from there that I'd like to take away if you don't read it all:

I see Spore as more of a... come prepared for move. It's something like FakeSpeed, which you should account for. Neither are inherently broken, and neither are too difficult to prepare for (i.e. not using random Pokemon like Insomnia Banette or something) on all teams. Spore honestly makes the tier more fun in my opinion, and it would be a shame to see it go. I do understand why some see it as a broken move, but I'm not in that boat.

Though Tapu Koko is banned now, I still don't see Spore as broken. No Electric Terrain helped it out for sure, but it's still not broken. You have to prepare for it like every other Pokemon and although I think it's super strong, most teams run a Grass-type anyways which completely neuters it. Plus, with only one Pokemon able to be asleep at a time, it's easy to just put something that doesn't have a good matchup versus your opponent's team to sleep, then use it for sack fodder later in the match. So, Spore should follow the action of doing nothing.

For those too lazy to read, ban Porygon-Z, do not ban Spore, Lopunny-M, Diggersby, suspect Rotom-W (potentially). These are just a few of my thoughts on the metagame and the Pokemon brought up in the above post.

 

[RetroBacon]

Please consider re-evaluating Snorlax's ranking. I believe it deserves a solid A or even an A+. It's reasonably versatile, and it can perform many jobs well. Even though we've seen it used as a physical sweeper, it can round out any stall or bulky team very nicely, thanks to it's ability to perish trap. Defensive Snorlax is an incredible Pokemon that I'm shocked we haven't seen more of. Access to solid recovery, a virtual resistance to Ice and Fire types, and a special stat that allows it to eat hits for breakfast nearly as good as Chansey. It's worth noting that bulky Snorlax beats Timid Porygon-Z in a 1v1 as well. That's impressive.

Set

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Perish Song
- Whirlpool
- Protect
- Milk Drink

I've been using this set for a little while now, and have managed to remove sometimes multiple Pokemon per game with just this mon. Even when it's not netting KOs, it can ALWAYS force a switch with Perish song. This set is a great lure for Celesteela.

Team

Landorus-Therian @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Shore Up
- Beak Blast
- Precipice Blades
- Defog


Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Ice Beam


Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Perish Song
- Whirlpool
- Protect
- Milk Drink


Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Photon Geyser
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Counter


Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Doom Desire
- Aura Sphere
- Volt Switch


Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Spore
- Seed Flare
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Here's a team showcasing Snorlax's abilities that I've been scaling the ladder with for the past day or so.

I also believe Alakazam deserves to be ranked. It's better than its mega. B+ or A-.

 

[Jrdn]

That's a really cool set for snorlax. You could even run Safety goggle's on it to avoid spores from things like serperior or rotom. I might have to try it out

 

[drampa's grandpa]

1) Lopunny-Mega

I think the thing people need to realize about Lopunny is that Espeed is not what gave it the largest boost in this metagame and imho not what makes it potentially banworthy. The move that does that is Swords Dance. Lopunny has the speed to get past most pokemon operating at a normal priority tier already; Espeed helps in some situations (versus opposing scarfers or priority for instance), and it's certainly better than Return, but it's not as important to Lopunny as the easy damage boost that Swords Dance provides.

I see a lot of discussion of it as an espeeder while I view its niche more in line with being an extremely fast set up sweeper (which happens to carry priority). Lopunny is incredibly oppressive for offensive teams to face, although slower builds often have easy ways of dealing with it (as Wishes mentioned). I would recommend a suspect. Note that previously I was in favor of a qb.

2) Diggersby

I've written a good amount about this Pokemon. In everything I've considered up until this point I've mainly thought about it as a sweeper I had to check, which it is, and which I can do, but forgot about its incredible potency as a revenge killer. The fact that it can do both of these things within one set at its incredibly high power level and the fact that it destroys offense with Espeed (especially with rocks up) and defensive builds with its various coverage options make this too much for the meta to handle.

I have reversed my opinion and am in favor of a ban.

3) Porygon-Z

I'm still formulating my thoughts on Porygon-Z. I'm not sure what I support as of now. Which makes me think a suspect is probably the best option but w/e. I'll probably edit this later.

Edit this later: My opinion on this can be expressed most eloquently in a calc.
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 298-352 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Hits too hard, with too few drawbacks, and is insane under webs (although webs are p hard to keep up in STABmons) pls BAN.

4) Spore / Rotom (they're related)

I HATE SPORE KILL IT WITH FIRE
um i mean my totally unbiased opinion is i hate mega venusaur and rotom and they are incredibly painful to fight because of this one move

Jrdn said

think if Rotom goes, Spore isn't that big of an issue. Grass types should be able to deal with the remaining spore users for the most part

I will counterpoint this with if Spore went, I don't think Rotom would need to go at all. Of course Rotom is an incredibly solid pokemon regardless of Spore but I can't recall seeing a Rotom set that, once I had even the vaguest sense of what it was, gave me much trouble without Spore. I also think Mega Venusaur is an incredibly annoying pokemon if you don't have something you can sack to sleep / a dedicated Spore check. If you can't OHKO it you have to sleep fodder something or your attempted check gets slept and then healed on. And it's not like you can slap safety goggles on just any pokemon and say you're safe; Celesteela is a safe switchin to Mega Venusaur unless it gets a spd drop, but against Rotom it will get hit by a SE Stab move (and don't tell me Rotom carrying Volt Switch is indicative of it being op, it does that in every tier its legal in). Ironically the safest switchin to most Spore users is Mega Venusaur.

I would argue for a SUSPECT of BOTH Spore and Rotom. Rotom for its incredible versatility and insane coverage and Spore for being able to remove checks and counters that would otherwise beat something.

Tl;dr suspect Lop, ban Diggersby, ban PZ, suspect Rotom and Spore together

 

[Brodaha]

I agree that Spore or rotom should go. They are only broken when the other is in existence, so one would be enough.

 

[Ellicrum]

Hi, I have not found a page dedicated to questions/answers about Other Metagames, so I ask my question here (sorry anyway for my bad english). Having just discovered the STABmons, it is quite possible that I say errors in the intervention that will follow (where these remarks have already been addressed).

While checking the banlist, I notice the presence of Silvally (which is perfectly logical because he could learn all the moves of the game). But rather to have made that this mon is ridiculously unpredictable, it was necessary to ensure instead that he can learn all the moves of his type only according to his type. Let me explain: Silvally-normal can learn all normal moves (no surprise) but he can not learn anything else (impossible to have U-turn, Close Combat or Spectral Thief for example). On the contrary, Silvally-Fight can learn Close Combat or Vacuum Wave but not coverage moves like Icicle Crash or Spectral Thief. Proceeding in this way, Silvally would be significantly nerf (and that at that time will probably unban). Is it technically possible? Because I do not see why the "Memories" would bring this mon a stupidly huge movepool

Same question for Rotoms. What justifies that Rotom-W can learn Blue Fare, that Rotom-H can learn Steam Eruption or that Rotom-F can learn Spore? If Rotom-W could only learn water moves, we would have a considerably less unpredictable mon (and this beneficial nerve will prevent a possible suspect, as mentioned above)

Finally, since the STABmons is an extreme meta, where the mons are considerably stronger than OU USUM (Landorus roost and dragon ascent, garchomp dragon dance or Lopunny extreme speed, which would be in OU worthy of the Uber ), would not it be interesting to unban some Ubers who would not be so strong for this format? I think of Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D (who do not learn much else, psycho boost is already the best psy attack). Possibly also (but with much less certainty) for Landorus-I, Zekrom or Solgaleo (which are very excluded Ubers)

 

[SaturnZelda]

Hi, I have not found a page dedicated to questions/answers about Other Metagames, so I ask my question here (sorry anyway for my bad english). Having just discovered the STABmons, it is quite possible that I say errors in the intervention that will follow (where these remarks have already been addressed).

While checking the banlist, I notice the presence of Silvally (which is perfectly logical because he could learn all the moves of the game). But rather to have made that this mon is ridiculously unpredictable, it was necessary to ensure instead that he can learn all the moves of his type only according to his type. Let me explain: Silvally-normal can learn all normal moves (no surprise) but he can not learn anything else (impossible to have U-turn, Close Combat or Spectral Thief for example). On the contrary, Silvally-Fight can learn Close Combat or Vacuum Wave but not coverage moves like Icicle Crash or Spectral Thief. Proceeding in this way, Silvally would be significantly nerf (and that at that time will probably unban). Is it technically possible? Because I do not see why the "Memories" would bring this mon a stupidly huge movepool

Same question for Rotoms. What justifies that Rotom-W can learn Blue Fare, that Rotom-H can learn Steam Eruption or that Rotom-F can learn Spore? If Rotom-W could only learn water moves, we would have a considerably less unpredictable mon (and this beneficial nerve will prevent a possible suspect, as mentioned above)

Finally, since the STABmons is an extreme meta, where the mons are considerably stronger than OU USUM (Landorus roost and dragon ascent, garchomp dragon dance or Lopunny extreme speed, which would be in OU worthy of the Uber ), would not it be interesting to unban some Ubers who would not be so strong for this format? I think of Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D (who do not learn much else, psycho boost is already the best psy attack). Possibly also (but with much less certainty) for Landorus-I, Zekrom or Solgaleo (which are very excluded Ubers)

The reason that Silvally can learn every move and Rotom can learn every move of its different formes is because their forme changes are outside of battle, meaning if there was a move tutor in game that could give Pokémon every move of their type (that’s how we’re treating this essentially), Silvally would be able to get every move and Rotom would be able to get all Ghost/Fire/Ice/Grass/Electric/Water moves. The same thing would go for Arceus if it was allowed, and it also goes for Necrozma with Steel and Ghost Type moves

 

[EV]

Finally, since the STABmons is an extreme meta, where the mons are considerably stronger than OU USUM (Landorus roost and dragon ascent, garchomp dragon dance or Lopunny extreme speed, which would be in OU worthy of the Uber ), would not it be interesting to unban some Ubers who would not be so strong for this format? I think of Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D (who do not learn much else, psycho boost is already the best psy attack). Possibly also (but with much less certainty) for Landorus-I, Zekrom or Solgaleo (which are very excluded Ubers)

We used to allow Ubers, but it always created more problems than it was worth. Since then we've favored a simpler banlist and just used OU as a base line to keep it more manageable.

Betathunder and I will announce any QBs/official suspects soon.

 

[EV]

I talked to Betathunder and we've decided to:

• Ban Porygon-Z
• Ban Spore
• Suspect Diggersby
• Do nothing Mega Lopunny
• Do nothing Rotom

PZ may not be as ubiquitous as the others on this list, but its raw power thanks to Adaptability neuters basically any checks it has, making it one of the hardest Pokemon to switch into in the entire game. We find it too unhealthy for a special attacker to be able to 2HKO bulky resists and even threaten to 2HKO the premier special wall, Chansey, with a little chip damage. Fist Plate Judgment can be run, too, to capitalize on the increased Tyranitar presence, and let's not forget the random SD Espeed sets of yore.

Spore may come as a surprise because it's not a move that breaks many Pokemon. It's fairly easy to predict on things like Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and Tangrowth, but prediction gets muddled when you introduce a wildcard such as Rotom. -BUT WAIT- Why not ban, or at least curb, the Rotom then? This was a tricky one for us because: A) Beta was worried that losing such a flexible defensive and offensive keystone would open up the metagame to Zygarde spam, and B) EV didn't want to go back on the move-sharing mechanic for fear of opening a can of worms on other move-sharing changes we introduced at the start of the generation. So we comprised with Spore, an extremely low-risk high-reward move. And if that doesn't work for you, 100% accuracy sleep is cheap.

Diggersby is in a similar boat to PZ, being able to smash defensive checks thanks to its raw power. However, with the introduction of Protective Pads, Diggersby must weigh its benefits over the traditional power-boosting items Silk Scarf or Choice Band in order to avoid Beak Blast's burns and King Shield's attack drops. Still, thanks to the move tutors, Diggersby has just the right combination of moves and a fantastic STAB combo that makes it hard to check. We're not convinced it's too strong for the metagame at the moment, but we're also not convinced it's at a manageable level for most players.

Lastly, Mega Lopunny is an incredibly potent force that must be accounted for when teambuilding, but we don't think it's broken. Jrdn made a good observation that Extreme Speed is a watered-down attack in exchange for priority, which Lop doesn't really need thanks to its high Speed. It's probably better off running Head Charge (yolo) or even its old standby Return. However, with a perfect STAB combo and room for setup, Encore, Substitute, etc, it's a very, very strong threat, and we'll be keeping our eyes on it.

Kris can you update?

We'll figure out what the Diggersby suspect is going to look like in the meantime while we have no ladder.

 

[MZ]

Spore may come as a surprise because it's not a move that breaks many Pokemon. It's fairly easy to predict on things like Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and Tangrowth, but prediction gets muddled when you introduce a wildcard such as Rotom. -BUT WAIT- Why not ban, or at least curb, the Rotom then? This was a tricky one for us because: A) Beta was worried that losing such a flexible defensive and offensive keystone would open up the metagame to Zygarde spam, and B) EV didn't want to go back on the move-sharing mechanic for fear of opening a can of worms on other move-sharing changes we introduced at the start of the generation. So we comprised with Spore, an extremely low-risk high-reward move. And if that doesn't work for you, 100% accuracy sleep is cheap.

Ok people know I don't like stabmons and getting to open winners finals hasn't changed my mind on how bad the meta is. But one thing I hate more is random tiering decisions and this doesn't work for me because that essentially translates to "we're allowing broken to check broken and banning a balanced element of the game". Considering that this is breaking a tiering philosophy all standard tiers, most OMs, and STABmons itself in the past has followed, why is Spore the thing getting the axe? Because this really doesn't seem like an adequate explanation here.
Or just change rotom/silvally mechs because oml

 

[The Immortal]

The mechanics should be changed. Rotom forms lose their special moves upon changing. Rotom-Wash should lose all Water moves, etc...

Edit: It's not to make a Pokemon less broken, that's a plus. It's to fix a flaw in STABmons.

 

[SaturnZelda]

The mechanics should be changed. Rotom forms lose their special moves upon changing. Rotom-Wash should lose all Water moves, etc...

The problem with this is that it would be changed for literally every other Pokémon that has outside formes of battle, just to make a Pokémon less broken

 

[Schpoonman]

Then Rotom needs to be axed, possibly alongside Spore.

Jrdn's argument is weak, Extreme Speed is the single best move in Lopunny's kit. Run Lopunny with just Fake Out and tell me if it still works as the premier STABmons revenge killer or as a sweeper with Swords Dance. Almost every game of STABmons I play comes down to who plays their FakeSpeeder and Landorus-Therian better, but getting rid of Lopunny would serve to diversify the metagame (or just cause a spike of fast Ghost-types).

 

[EV]

Ok people know I don't like stabmons and getting to open winners finals hasn't changed my mind on how bad the meta is. But one thing I hate more is random tiering decisions and this doesn't work for me because that essentially translates to "we're allowing broken to check broken and banning a balanced element of the game". Considering that this is breaking a tiering philosophy all standard tiers, most OMs, and STABmons itself in the past has followed, why is Spore the thing getting the axe? Because this really doesn't seem like an adequate explanation here.
Or just change rotom/silvally mechs because oml

>Spore
>Balanced

I think you're confusing "balanced" with "just throw Safety Goggles on Celesteela". And Rotom won't be broken w/o it, so we're not keeping a broken element by allowing Rotom to stay.

 

[MZ]

>Spore
>Balanced

I think you're confusing "balanced" with "just throw Safety Goggles on Celesteela". And Rotom won't be broken w/o it, so we're not keeping a broken element by allowing Rotom to stay.

your ban post says spore is balanced on viable non-rotom mons which like to use the move. ur banning the move bc it's broken on one (more than one? idk, formes) mon rather than banning the mon responsible. if spore venusaur or tangrowth is actually broken then i dont have an issue with this decision, but i gather that's not the case

 

[drampa's grandpa]

I know I was the one arguing for a Spore ban / suspect earlier but I agree with Megazard here. The reasoning you gave makes it seem like you're banning it primarily to nerf Rotom. If that was not your intent then I recommend rewriting the ban post to reflect this, otherwise I don't think the ban has been fully justified.

Of course TI posted that we should revert to the old way of dealing with forme changes (or just Rotom? I'm a little confused about that) so if that happened the ban would probably have to be revaluated anyway. I personally don't agree with his analysis of the mechanics. Rotom's moves being lost are a special attribute of Thundershock/Hydro Pump/etc. from what I can tell; in gen 4 it still lost those moves when switching forme and there was no type change to be had. Not that what I think particularly matters here.

As to the other stuff...
PZ: obvious, expected, I knew this was coming, rip my webs team
Diggersby: I want it gone tbh, but a suspect is always acceptable for that. Probably wasn't obvious enough to QB at this stage. Are we just going to wait until next month and then do a standard suspect ladder?
Lop: Someone in the OM room today (idr who) said that the meta has adapted to Lop as time went by. I think that's pretty accurate. It's an incredible pain for offense and I believe it could have been suspect-worthy but there is currently enough counterplay in the meta that it shouldn't make the meta unfun or anything. A +2 Lop is scary for offensive teams tho.

 

[Akashi]

Then Rotom needs to be axed, possibly alongside Spore.

Jrdn's argument is weak, Extreme Speed is the single best move in Lopunny's kit. Run Lopunny with just Fake Out and tell me if it still works as the premier STABmons revenge killer or as a sweeper with Swords Dance. Almost every game of STABmons I play comes down to who plays their FakeSpeeder and Landorus-Therian better, but getting rid of Lopunny would serve to diversify the metagame (or just cause a spike of fast Ghost-types).

i disagree. i dont believe that "almost every game" in stabmons comes down to who plays there lando and fake speeder better that completely false
we have many options other than lando that completely shut down lop or any fake speeder, this isnt lovely kiss lop its just sd lop. true Mlop is a very good mon in the tier and probably one of the most used megas in the meta but mlop was never a threat that should be suspected or be considered for suspecting at all in fact i would go as far as to say that its very underwhelming in the current meta, the only broken mlop out there is lovely kiss mlop thats it. this is just a theory but i believe that the blace meta had alot of influence on making mlop very very potent til now because during blace meta Every team and i mean every single team out there was either just really weak to mlop or u just got 6-0ed by it since teams then were very centered around blace and "blace counters and checks" and this created a meta where mlop would dominate among the rest of the espeeders in the meta.

Lop: Someone in the OM room today (idr who) said that the meta has adapted to Lop as time went by. I think that's pretty accurate. It's an incredible pain for offense and I believe it could have been suspect-worthy but there is currently enough counterplay in the meta that it shouldn't make the meta unfun or anything. A +2 Lop is scary for offensive teams tho.

(it was me)also what i believe and which is true is that after blace was banned, we quickly adapted and we slowly started to realize that mlop isnt that "great"
about the recent bans i agree with all of them spore can be quite difficult to handle i noticed rotom was the main/best user but i disagree with "rotom made spore broken" , all i see really is another mon using spore to its fullest extent thats all, spore is just a tool used to completely beat the user's counter or counters, rotom just has an easier time beating those counters due to its vast movepool i believe that every grass user contributed to this ban not just rotom.

about whether rotom should revert back to its normal movepool of only water/electric and so on, i really cant say much on this, a part of me wants it gone and another wants it to stay the way it is because after we suspect diggersby and whether its banned or not the meta will stabilize

 

[drampa's grandpa]

I CAN COUNT a couple nominations for viability rankings

B -> B+
Bewear is a very nice espeeder, bringing bulk as its niche over others. To put its bulk into some perspective
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Fluffy Bewear: 302-356 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and Band Bewear OHKOs in return.
252+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 148 Def Aerodactyl: 364-430 (120.9 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In a contact heavy metagame like STAB Bewear has a lot of opportunities to tank hits, which can let it either set up with SD or deal heavy damage. Bewear also just just a major offensive check in Blacephalon, which was immune to both STABs, had a pseudo-SE STAB, and resisted Ice Punch, and was just overall bad news for Bewear. But now it's gone!

UR -> B-/B
Accelgor is THE lead for Sticky Webs HO. While Ninjask is also worth considering as they both give Final Gambit/Spikes/Sticky Web, but Accelgor gives Encore, which allows it to provide momentum, set up more spikes, or prevent Defog. This is not a complicated Pokemon. I've seen Tail Glow sets, and they're bad. It pairs well with anything that appreciates webs support, like Mega Medicham, Porygon-Z, Diggersby, and Mega Charizard Y, etc. insert wallbreaker here.

I'd like to bump these two noms, although I will say that Accelgor should probably go lower than B- with the loss of the best abuser of webs, Porygon-Z.

Also nomming Latios B+ --> B given that Tyranitar is still really good rn and honestly it pretty heavily fears pursuit trapping in general while either not having the speed or the strength it wants to deal with the walls of the tier, depending on item. It's a solid scarfer but requires careful playing against any team with a pursuit trapper that Latios can't outspeed and kill (and guess what every dark type gets both Sucker and Pursuit)

I'm also considering nomming Primarina and Durant from unrated but I'm not sure if they've really got enough of a niche to be on the viability ranking.
Durant at least has good physical bulk for an offensive mon, good power with hustle, U-Turn, Sunsteel, a resistance to normal priority, and decent coverage. I recommend Band or Scarf but Z moves get around Hustle's accuracy loss so Hone Claws + Steelium might be good. The only real thing it has over Scizor is its speed though.
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 404-476 (118.4 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 324-382 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Primarina has decent power with Steam Eruption and Water Shuriken. I've only run Specs. It's the most massive Chansey bait I've ever run. It's a good bit stronger than Tapu Fini, with comparable special bulk and the ability to burn, but much less utility and physically frailer. I am much less inclined to say this deserves a rank than Durant does, but I thought I'd mention it.

 

[Marigold]

I recently got into this meta, and goodness is it fun to build teams for. After building around 5-6 teams and testing them out, I've come to the conclusion that fake speed is choking this meta's teambuilding. It's not that fake speed doesn't have stops to it, it's that the methods of dealing with it are rather limited and easily lured. This means teams that run fake speed spam (where one member lures classic checks) are highly potent and frankly hard to stop. However, I didn't come here to complain. I came here to nominate an actually offensive fake speed check.

Durant: UR -> B- (idk somewhere low, this thing has a solid niche though)

CB durant

Durant (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Sunsteel Strike
- U-turn / Smart Strike
- Superpower

Banded durant reaches an absurd 713 atk stat and has access to two key moves needed to revenge kill near every fake speeder: first impression (which is +2 priority) and sunsteel strike (ignores abilities that bolster bulk). U-turn maintains momentum and chips switch-ins, and superpower smacks steel types. Smart strike is an option if you don't want to miss, but I love myself some powerful momentum 80% of the time.

espeed matchups

Lopunny-M
Durant typically loses to lopunny, but they have to be at +1 or higher to win:
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 199-235 (77.4 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 342-403 (126.1 - 148.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Diggersby
Outprioritize espeed with first impression and ohko. If you can't afford to lock into impression, you can eat a +2 espeed:
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 183-216 (71.2 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 363-427 (116.7 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ursaring
Same as diggersby:
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 195-229 (75.8 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 370-436 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Bewear
You easily eat +2 espeed, and ignore fluffy with sunsteel strike:
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Bewear Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 151-178 (58.7 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Sunsteel Strike vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Bewear: 390-460 (92.1 - 108.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Snorlax
Snorlax has to belly drum and if they do, first impression always revenge kills. If they don't, you easily ohko with superpower and they can't touch you:
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 415-489 (79.1 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Altaria-M and other fairy espeeders
+2 espeed bounces off, you ohko with steel stab:
+2 252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 138-163 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Aside from checking espeed, you can just use this to revenge kill setup sweepers in general such as ddance chomp, or rain sweepers like ash gren/kingdra/swampert. This durant set fits extremely well on volt-turn teams that force a ton of switches. Hazard stacking is really powerful with it, and incorporating doom desire into your voltturn makes for a neat steel spam team. Enjoy!

Replay
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-717664787 Durant putting in work vs rain. It ohko'd kingdra from full, pulled momentum with u-turn to bring in pidgeot (which eviscerates rain when played right), and severely damaged the ferrothorn for pidgeot to clean.

 

[drampa's grandpa]

I recently got into this meta, and goodness is it fun to build teams for. After building around 5-6 teams and testing them out, I've come to the conclusion that fake speed is choking this meta's teambuilding. It's not that fake speed doesn't have stops to it, it's that the methods of dealing with it are rather limited and easily lured. This means teams that run fake speed spam (where one member lures classic checks) are highly potent and frankly hard to stop. However, I didn't come here to complain. I came here to nominate an actually offensive fake speed check.

Durant: UR -> B- (idk somewhere low, this thing has a solid niche though)

CB durant

Durant (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Sunsteel Strike
- U-turn / Smart Strike
- Superpower

Banded durant reaches an absurd 713 atk stat and has access to two key moves needed to revenge kill near every fake speeder: first impression (which is +2 priority) and sunsteel strike (ignores abilities that bolster bulk). U-turn maintains momentum and chips switch-ins, and superpower smacks steel types. Smart strike is an option if you don't want to miss, but I love myself some powerful momentum 80% of the time.

espeed matchups

Lopunny-M
Durant typically loses to lopunny, but they have to be at +1 or higher to win:
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 199-235 (77.4 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 342-403 (126.1 - 148.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Diggersby
Outprioritize espeed with first impression and ohko. If you can't afford to lock into impression, you can eat a +2 espeed:
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 183-216 (71.2 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 363-427 (116.7 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ursaring
Same as diggersby:
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 195-229 (75.8 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 370-436 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Bewear
You easily eat +2 espeed, and ignore fluffy with sunsteel strike:
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Bewear Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 151-178 (58.7 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Sunsteel Strike vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Bewear: 390-460 (92.1 - 108.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Snorlax
Snorlax has to belly drum and if they do, first impression always revenge kills. If they don't, you easily ohko with superpower and they can't touch you:
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 415-489 (79.1 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Altaria-M and other fairy espeeders
+2 espeed bounces off, you ohko with steel stab:
+2 252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 138-163 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Aside from checking espeed, you can just use this to revenge kill setup sweepers in general such as ddance chomp, or rain sweepers like ash gren/kingdra/swampert. This durant set fits extremely well on volt-turn teams that force a ton of switches. Hazard stacking is really powerful with it, and incorporating doom desire into your voltturn makes for a neat steel spam team. Enjoy!

Replay
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-717664787 Durant putting in work vs rain. It ohko'd kingdra from full, pulled momentum with u-turn to bring in pidgeot (which eviscerates rain when played right), and severely damaged the ferrothorn for pidgeot to clean.

On point af

I was waiting for someone to post so I could make a post about Espeed but hey, he already said a lot of what I wanted to say.

I am going to recommed that the Diggersby suspect is also an EXTREME SPEED suspect. While it's pretty clear that banning such an intrinsic part of the metagame as Extreme Speed without a suspect would be kinda bad I think it would also be difficult to argue that it's not an extremely centralizing force right now.

My argument isn't that it's broken, and I don't think that that argument could be made very successfully. But this line

It's not that fake speed doesn't have stops to it, it's that the methods of dealing with it are rather limited and easily lured.

pretty much sums up how I feel about it at the moment. Looking at the individual abusers: Diggersby, Lopunny-Mega, Bewear, Ursaring, Snorlax, and Altaria-Mega (in no particular order other than the order I thought of them in and the fact that I consider these ones notable), every single one has checks, but they are a little different for each Pokemon. So when you look at common meta teams you often see Espeeder/Espeeder2/Espeed check 1/Espeed check 2/Wallbreaker/Whatever with a little wiggle room. For instance Virginia's double bunny offense team (Diggersby/Lopunny/Landorus/Toxapex/Terrakion/Chansey) perfectly fits this archetype with Terrakion pulling double duty by also being a check to some Espeeders. This is NOT healthy, NOT fun for anyone besides the small dedicated core of STABmons fanatics, and NOT friendly to new people trying to get into the metagame.

I do not believe that the issue here is the individual abusers either. With the possible exception of Diggersby none of the Extreme Speeders stand out as broken (Mega Lop, which has received discussion, is, I believe, more buffed by Swords Dance than Espeed). What they do stand out as are top tier revenge killers, sweepers, and wallbreakers* all. The provide so much utility in one slot there are almost no teams that do not benefit from carrying them, especially since STABmons inherently leans towards the more offensive side of the spectrum.

There's been a bit of a taboo about bringing up Extreme Speed as a suspect topic for awhile now (like what two gens) and I would at least like to see some discussion on it personally. I know that several prominent members of the community feel that STABmons is "unplayable" in its current state and have cited Extreme Speed as the root of the problem.

Please note that listing checks and counters won't make me change my mind. I know they exist. I've probably used them. The problem is the metagame is centralized around those Pokemon to the point where using things that don't check Extreme Speed or Espeed themselves in some way is almost a detriment.

*Because Extreme Speed enables and promotes the use of Pokemon that are as strong as possible and combines priority and a primary STAB into one these Pokemon tend to carry lots of coverage or be otherwise difficult to switch into.

 

[Schpoonman]

Oh, cool, someone said it first.

FakeSpeed is super cancerous and completely warps the way offense is allowed to build, which in turn dictates the way the entire metagame is allowed to build.