Metagame STABmons

As seen here Necrozma is currently unable to learn Steel type and Ghost type moves in STABmons. Given that in the games Necrozma can change back and forth between formes it should be able to.

Thanks to winona for finding this (idr your Smogon name sry)
EDIT:
[23:46:00] #Chloe: Dunsparce Fanboy
[23:46:13] #Chloe:is their smogon
thanks Dunsparce Fanboy wish I had tagged you in the first place but w/e

Gonna tag ihhca and Kris cuz coding stuff

X_X
 
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Should that be true...


Necrozma @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick-or-Treat
- Stored Power
- Moongeist Beam
- whatever you want

Necrozma can now use Z-Trick-or-Treat! The only other relevant Pokemon that can use this alongside STAB Stored Power is Hoopa-U, potentially Meloetta if you're into that as well. What differentiates Necrozma is its naturally solid bulk and high Special Attack (Hoopa-U possesses this too) alongside its access to coverage options such as those listed above. One could easily opt for Photon Geyser > Stored Power for consistency, but it's still nice to have a 120 BP STAB move! Trick-or-Treat adds a Ghost-typing to the opposing Pokemon as well, which is why Moongeist Beam is listed, as it's now Super Effective / Normal Effective on everything besides Normal-type Pokemon, or Raticate-A which is irrelevant. Some options for the fourth slot are Earth Power, to OHKO Heatran; Heat Wave to OHKO Ferrothorn; Substitute to block Chansey; Calm Mind for further sweeping ability + reliability; and Moonlight to recover HP. It's a very versatile Pokemon. It's probably not going to be excellent due to it just not hitting hard enough, but revenge killing it is going to be annoying thanks to the defense boosts provided by Z-ToT.

Necrozma could also run something like Swords Dance / Anchor Shot / Earthquake / Photon Geyser and catch something and set up, but I'm not sure how good that would be. Or even the Z-ToT set. Both might be kinda bad!

Regardless, Necrozma now has some more tools to play with and it's going to be fun to experiment with!
 
Has there been any thought in unbanning specific unreleased moves, particularly Light of Ruin, which may never see the light of day? It'd be a pretty revolutionary addition to Fairies across the board, and I have had a magic guard Clefable set stewing in the ol' noggin for years now.
 
Unfortunately no. As Stabmons is ou based, it follows its limitations in regard to unreleased pokemon and moves. It has always been like this for stabmons and i don't see us breaking this anytime soon.
Not disputing the stance on disallowing unreleased moves, but this is absolutely the wrong reasoning. If you could only use Pokemon and moves from OU, Precipice Blades, Origin Pulse, Dragon Ascent, etc. would be banned.
 
Not disputing the stance on disallowing unreleased moves, but this is absolutely the wrong reasoning. If you could only use Pokemon and moves from OU, Precipice Blades, Origin Pulse, Dragon Ascent, etc. would be banned.
All of those moves are ou legal. Ou only bans a few moves: double team, minimize, and baton pass. They can only be used on smeargle, sure, but thats not the same thing as them being banned.
 
I wanted to bring a matter up thats been getting on my nerve and i cant believe no one discussed it yet

Fake-speed
Arguably the most dangerous have to prepare for in stabmons, a tactic which was banned last gen for having very few counters for both offense and balance, i just wanna talk about how stupidly constrictive it is on teambuilding (or at least its main abusers)

The biggest problem of espeed is how it fucking outprioritize every other priority, and it has 80 BASE POWER, doesnt help how steels/rocks which are supposed to be "walling" fakespeeders are weak to the secondary stab of the two main abusers in lopunny and diggersby

Yea lopunnys scrappy with its very high speed is the main problem, she outspeeds 90% of the meta and has a very good matchup vs offense, like almost invalidates it

while diggersby on the other hand has an amazing matchup vs balance running protective pads to avoid beak blast burns, rocky helmet and iron barbs, it just sds the lando/steela switch and sds again and just fucks overs balance and offense

Edit: people have told me lando and steela beats them and theyre common mons so thats okay. i find that a terrible argument tbh, just because lopunny cant beat lando and steela but beats like 90% of the rest of the tier that makes it not broken? even if theyre common mons it doesnt excuse it, its like saying ttar and heatran are already common mons in ou so naganadel is not broken, also just cause diggersby cant threaten offense as much it means the fact it invalidates balance any less true??

Please if im sounding like a scrub tell me ways how u deal with this shit
i wanna know what u all think about this, i think its broken AND centralizing the meta in a pretty unhealthy way, and id like to see either espeed or lopunny/diggersby gone
 
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Gonna take this apart piece by piece and look at your arguments.
I wanted to bring a matter up thats been getting on my nerve and i cant believe no one discussed it yet
Ok good so far
Fake-speed
Arguably the most dangerous have to prepare for in stabmons, a tactic which was banned last gen for having very few counters for both offense and balance, i just wanna talk about how stupidly constrictive it is on teambuilding (or at least its main abusers)
As ihhca famously said...
[17:31:51] +Virginia != Virgin: espeed has never been banned in espeed
Meaning Espeed has never been banned in Stabmons. I don't know why people keep thinking this.
The biggest problem of espeed is how it fucking outprioritize every other priority, and it has 80 BASE POWER, doesnt help how steels/rocks which are supposed to be "walling" fakespeeders are weak to the secondary stab of the two main abusers in lopunny and diggersby
You seem to forget two things here. 1) Secondary types exist and 2) You don't need to resist something to wall it.
Pdef Ferrothorn can take anything from either mon unless Diggersby runs Fire Punch, although you'll need to predict to beat them (don't let them sd too much) EDIT: calc'c this interaction out more down below and Ferro is a very bad Lopunny check, I wouldn't run it for that.
Toxapex walls Lopunny very well.
Landorus-Therian the best pokemon in the meta can check both
Celesteela is a very good Lopunny check, but has a trouble depending on the Diggersby set
Any ghost faster than Diggersby checks it
Faster normal resists beat both of them, like many scarfers (try Terrakion, Aerodactyl (not scarf so slower than lop), or Durant)
Priority users (wait what?!? anything that can take an espeed and ko it back works to check it)
Yea lopunnys scrappy with its very high speed is the main problem, she outspeeds 90% of the meta and has a very good matchup vs offense, like almost invalidates it

while diggersby on the other hand has an amazing matchup vs balance running protective pads to avoid beak blast burns, rocky helmet and iron barbs, it just sds the lando/steela switch and sds again and just fucks overs balance and offense
You seem to think that there needs to be a universal Espeed check. Or that Lopunny and Diggersby should share the same checks, and that if something loses to one set of either then it has failed. That's silly. They have somewhat different checks and that's fine because they're different pokemon. Anyway STABmons is an inherently offensive tier and most teams i come across function more by checking than by countering. If you maintain offensive momentum properly than the opposing Lopunny or Diggersby won't be able to set up without you forcing it out or KOing it.

Edit: people have told me lando and steela beats them and theyre common mons so thats okay. i find that a terrible argument tbh, just because lopunny cant beat lando and steela but beats like 90% of the rest of the tier that makes it not broken? even if theyre common mons it doesnt excuse it, its like saying ttar and heatran are already common mons in ou so naganadel is not broken, also just cause diggersby cant threaten offense as much it means the fact it invalidates balance any less true??

Please if im sounding like a scrub tell me ways how u deal with this shit
i wanna know what u all think about this, i think its broken AND centralizing the meta in a pretty unhealthy way, and id like to see either espeed or lopunny/diggersby gone
Diggersby doesn't invalidate balance. Balance was probably the strongest playstyle pre-usum and guess what: Diggersby existed. Now I'd say offense is stronger but that has more to do with the addition of things like Blacephalon.

As for
beats like 90% of the rest of the tier
S rank:
Lando-T: Loses

A+ Rank:
Celesteela: Loses (so far I've proved nothing)
Diggersby : Wins
Ferrothorn: Prediction based in Lopunny's favor (Ferrothorn has to play games with King's Shield and Strength Sap) unless Encore Lop, which wins, or Ferrothorn is not at full health. I'll put this as a Win
Greninja-Ash: Wins
Lopunny-Mega: n
Thundurus-Therian: Loses
Toxapex: Loses
Zygarde: Set dependent. Defensive or bulky set up loses, and Band or Offensive Dragonium win. I'll give it 50/50

A Rank
Diancie-Mega: Loses if at full health
Greninja: Wins
Heatran: Wins unless Timid Scarf Eruptran, which is a roll
Magearna: Loses
Mimikyu: Loses (yes even with Fake Out)
Porygon-Z: Wins unless Scarf (I'm not sure what the most common sets for PZ are nowadays to be quite honest)
Rotom-W: Loses to defensive (the most common set)
Tangrowth: Loses
Tyranitar: Wins
Venusaur-Mega: Loses

A- Rank
Aerodactyl: Wins
Altaria-Mega: Loses
Chansey: Wins
Charizard-Mega-X: Loses without Fake Out, Roll with (I'll leave it as 50/50, which is generous imo)
Charizard-Mega-Y: Loses
Hoopa-U: (why is this this high on the viability rankings) Wins, needs Fake Out if Scarf
Keldeo: Wins unless scarf. I'll leave as 50/50, but I'm not sure that's right because I haven't used or seen Keld recently.
Magnezone: Wins
Mawile-Mega: Loses
Medicham-Mega: Loses without Fake out, Roll heavily in Medicham's favor with. I give to Medicham.
Pidgeot-Mega: Wins with Fake Out, Roll very heavily in Pidgeot's favor without. I give 50/50.
Tapu Fini: Loses
Terrakion: Wins unless Scarf. I give to Mega Lop.

That's the S and A ranks.

Let's total them up.

W: 14 L: 16 50/50: 4
I'm not doing Diggersby btw this took way too long

That's hardly "beats 90% of the metagame." Even excluding Lando-t and Celesteela it's an even 50/50 split. And I was trying to be generous to Lopunny with the iffy ones. The problem comes when you let Mega Lopunny get to +2 without punishing it in someway, either by bringing in a solid check/counter (Tangrowth, Buzzwole, Lando-t, Celesteela), havily damaging it, or statusing it, and honestly... letting something set up in front of you is a good way to lose in most tiers. At least here you can revenge things with... wait for it... Fakespeed.

EDIT: Some people have brought up wanting to suspect Lopunnite. I think that's an idea that has more merit to it than banning Lopunny AND Diggersby or Fakespeed. I would be interested in hearing more arguments about it, because while this post may have been designed to downplay Lopunny's opness, if the right reasons and arguments were given I could see a suspect being justified.
[/edit]
 
LordHelix, I have to disagree with you.

FakeSpeed is cool and great, it's ultimately what helps give numerous Pokemon (Diggersby and Lopunny-M as you mentioned, for example) an opportunity to really shine. What I don't understand with your argument is where you actually... assert a claim. The two arguments I picked up on were that the tactic is over-centralizing to team building and that the priority of the move out speeding every other priority move is an issue.

Firstly, restricting team building is something I just do not understand. You're going to want to run Normal-type checks naturally, since for example Porygon-Z is a very common threat that can bulldoze teams with Choice Specs Boomburst if left unchecked. You could run Celesteela on bulkier builds, Heatran on moderate builds, and stuff like Terrakion or Blacephalon on offensive builds. All of these are incredibly common and find their way onto teams. You've got different ways to build, with a multitude of different Pokemon, so I don't see really how having a Normal-type check is restricting team building, since these Pokemon all fit very well onto teams and are also used for other things than simply checking Normal-types. Celesteela removes entry hazards and is generally just a bulky annoyance; Heatran exerts a ton of pressure on the opponent and gives you Stealth Rock; Terrakion breaks down walls and offers different priorities; Blacephalon is simply an amazing offensive presence. These Pokemon listed run a variety of different things and are not used specifically to stop Normal-types. You also have Landorus-T which is able to be run on every team archetype and is run incredibly often, which checks physical FakeSpeeders. You can also run Psychic-types with not bad bulk, like Necrozma, which I've been fond of recently, or Slowbro-Mega, which don't mind anything from Lopunny-Mega for instance. I'll get into this more later.

Also, FakeSpeed actually promotes more creative team building in my opinion because you can't just slap on a fast set-up sweeper like Nasty Plot Greninja and just mow over the opponent. You have to realize that Greninja cannot sweep with this move since the prevalence of FakeSpeed makes this set not the greatest. I'm all for banning broken things, but I think that a lot more Pokemon are actually allowed than would be without FakeSpeed to help that. Sorry, I'm very tired, but I hope this line of thought made sense.

Next, I really do not see how having +2 priority is an argument, really. Yes, it's got +2, whereas most have +1, but that really doesn't change anything to me... It just makes the priority better. Going to just move onto the next part of my post, which is much more important than this paragraph...

To address the issue of Lopunny-M in particular:
  • Lopunny-M is kept in check by Psychic-types previously mentioned. You could run Necrozma, a relatively unexplored Pokemon; Slowbro-M, which does a great job walling it; Jirachi, which forces mind games with King's Shield, or threatens to cripple it via Thunder Wave. Or, you could run the most common Pokemon in the metagame: Landorus-T. Landorus-T genuinely does the best job at stopping Lopunny-M since it shrugs off Extreme Speed and burns right back, making it much easier to handle. Ice Punch is a thing, but I feel that set is somewhat inferior to Encore / Swords Dance sets. Ice Punch threatens it, but... -1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 176-208 (46 - 54.4%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Stealth Rock also makes this a much safer roll (95.3% chance to 2HKO to be exact), but then it's burned with Beak Blast and crippled the entire rest of the match. Beak Blast always OHKOes Lopunny-M in return so you can't even Swords Dance in its face. Or, if not running more offensively oriented teams, run Toxapex, which threatens Lopunny-M with Scald burns, and hates Haze. This is where Encore becomes a little irritating. Next, even Grass-types commonly run such as Tangrowth or Venusaur-M do a great job in checking Lopunny-M since they have natural bulk enough to take it on. For these reasons, I do not see Lopunny-M (or Lopunnite specifically) to be a broken threat in the STABmons metagame. I do not believe a suspect would accomplish much. Perhaps there is more public outcry than I have noticed, but I haven't seen discussion of it before recently.
So, to summarize, FakeSpeed and Lopunny-M are fine. Don't ban.
 
Thing is, Lopunny-mega forces out the setup sweepers that fear FakeSpeed (even when it doesn't actually run it), including Ghosts, thanks to Scrappy.
Due to that, if predicted correctly, Lopunny can actually use a Swords Dance when the opponent switches, and then break through some of its checks with HJK and sometimes its useful 4th move slot.

Now, let's see what it can do after a SD :
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 404-476 (105.7 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO If Lopunny has Encore (and Scald doesn't burn), it wins.
+2 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 405-477 (168 - 197.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 390-459 (107.1 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 363-427 (119.4 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 313-370 (103.3 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Oh, and covering Drampa's Grandpa list of Lopunny-mega's 1v1 matchups :
Thundurus, Medicham-mega, Pidgeot-mega, Charizard-mega Y are all OHKOed by Extremespeed at +2.
Offensive Altaria-mega lacking Fake Out and offensive Charizard-mega X are also both OHKOed by +2 Espeed after Stealth Rock. (87.5% of the time for Altaria-mega)

What else? Well, having a partner like Magnezone helps it, as it can trap and kill Celesteela (unless Shed Shell), and Ferrothorn, in case it can't risk HJK against King's Shield.
But anyway, Lopunny-mega itself doesn't require much team support to do its job, even though it enjoys slow U-Turns and Volt Switches when it runs Fake Out.

But that's not everything.
Encore turns out to be really effective on it, as it can allow Lopunny-mega to use even more Swords Dances, and thus removing even more of its checks.
One of its main points of selling is that FakeSpeed invalidates some setup sweepers, but it turns out that Lopunny-mega can be a threat to both offensive and defensive playstyles due to Swords Dance and Encore.

Drampa's Grandpa already calculated Lopunny-mega's 1v1 matchups, so i have nothing more to say about it.

Honestly, i think suspecting the Lopunnite may be a good idea, since if Lopunny-mega really isn't unhealthy, then it will just be kept. (it's indeed not much of an argument, but the subject of Lopunny-mega would be more heavily discussed that way)

Oh, also i did this with my free time
What it says in the title.png
 
honestly i haven't played a huge amount of stabmons yet this gen, but from what i have played lopunny definitely felt really oppressive. diggersby is definitely nowhere near the same level and is not that difficult to manage
 
Likes: EV
Well thanks for responding just wanna reply to some of the points real quick
LordHelix, I have to disagree with you.

FakeSpeed is cool and great, it's ultimately what helps give numerous Pokemon (Diggersby and Lopunny-M as you mentioned, for example) an opportunity to really shine. What I don't understand with your argument is where you actually... assert a claim. The two arguments I picked up on were that the tactic is over-centralizing to team building and that the priority of the move out speeding every other priority move is an issue.

Firstly, restricting team building is something I just do not understand. You're going to want to run Normal-type checks naturally, since for example Porygon-Z is a very common threat that can bulldoze teams with Choice Specs Boomburst if left unchecked. You could run Celesteela on bulkier builds, Heatran on moderate builds, and stuff like Terrakion or Blacephalon on offensive builds. All of these are incredibly common and find their way onto teams. You've got different ways to build, with a multitude of different Pokemon, so I don't see really how having a Normal-type check is restricting team building, since these Pokemon all fit very well onto teams and are also used for other things than simply checking Normal-types. Celesteela removes entry hazards and is generally just a bulky annoyance; Heatran exerts a ton of pressure on the opponent and gives you Stealth Rock; Terrakion breaks down walls and offers different priorities; Blacephalon is simply an amazing offensive presence. These Pokemon listed run a variety of different things and are not used specifically to stop Normal-types. You also have Landorus-T which is able to be run on every team archetype and is run incredibly often, which checks physical FakeSpeeders. You can also run Psychic-types with not bad bulk, like Necrozma, which I've been fond of recently, or Slowbro-Mega, which don't mind anything from Lopunny-Mega for instance. I'll get into this more later.
The thing is most of those normal type checks dont actually check any espeed, heatran does not actually beat any of the fakespeeders, so many things switch in on terra for free so its not that good imo , blace loses to lopunny since scrappy is dumb, the only 3 pokemon on these list that reliably counter espeeders are lando, celesteela and slowbro (necrozma drops to +2 espeed from lopunny)

At least blace, terrakion, aerodatcyl outspeed porygon since 90 base speed is not really good, or can be killed with priority mach punch, lopunny on the other hand...
Also, FakeSpeed actually promotes more creative team building in my opinion because you can't just slap on a fast set-up sweeper like Nasty Plot Greninja and just mow over the opponent. You have to realize that Greninja cannot sweep with this move since the prevalence of FakeSpeed makes this set not the greatest. I'm all for banning broken things, but I think that a lot more Pokemon are actually allowed than would be without FakeSpeed to help that. Sorry, I'm very tired, but I hope this line of thought made sense.
I mean yes its good for the metagame imo, but im talking specifically about lopunny and to a lesser extent, diggersby, which abuse it too well
Next, I really do not see how having +2 priority is an argument, really. Yes, it's got +2, whereas most have +1, but that really doesn't change anything to me... It just makes the priority better. Going to just move onto the next part of my post, which is much more important than this paragraph...
It does matter imo , instead of being able to revenge diggersby with water shuriken greninja or mach punch it they both just drop to an espeed, and its fairly unfair considering how high the bp is
To address the issue of Lopunny-M in particular:
  • Lopunny-M is kept in check by Psychic-types previously mentioned. You could run Necrozma, a relatively unexplored Pokemon; Slowbro-M, which does a great job walling it; Jirachi, which forces mind games with King's Shield, or threatens to cripple it via Thunder Wave. Or, you could run the most common Pokemon in the metagame: Landorus-T. Landorus-T genuinely does the best job at stopping Lopunny-M since it shrugs off Extreme Speed and burns right back, making it much easier to handle. Ice Punch is a thing, but I feel that set is somewhat inferior to Encore / Swords Dance sets. Ice Punch threatens it, but... -1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 176-208 (46 - 54.4%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Stealth Rock also makes this a much safer roll (95.3% chance to 2HKO to be exact), but then it's burned with Beak Blast and crippled the entire rest of the match. Beak Blast always OHKOes Lopunny-M in return so you can't even Swords Dance in its face. Or, if not running more offensively oriented teams, run Toxapex, which threatens Lopunny-M with Scald burns, and hates Haze. This is where Encore becomes a little irritating. Next, even Grass-types commonly run such as Tangrowth or Venusaur-M do a great job in checking Lopunny-M since they have natural bulk enough to take it on. For these reasons, I do not see Lopunny-M (or Lopunnite specifically) to be a broken threat in the STABmons metagame. I do not believe a suspect would accomplish much. Perhaps there is more public outcry than I have noticed, but I haven't seen discussion of it before recently.
So, to summarize, FakeSpeed and Lopunny-M are fine. Don't ban.
Maybe it isnt and im just salty, but i think a lopunnite suspect wont hurt if theres enough support for it

Thanks for responding, anyways wanna respond to some points u made
Gonna take this apart piece by piece and look at your arguments.
Ok good so far

As ihhca famously said...
[17:31:51] +Virginia != Virgin: espeed has never been banned in espeed
Meaning Espeed has never been banned in Stabmons. I don't know why people keep thinking this.
Im pretty sure there was an espeed clause, not the same thing but it is something
You seem to forget two things here. 1) Secondary types exist and 2) You don't need to resist something to wall it.
Pdef Ferrothorn can take anything from either mon unless Diggersby runs Fire Punch, although you'll need to predict to beat them (don't let them sd too much) EDIT: calc'c this interaction out more down below and Ferro is a very bad Lopunny check, I wouldn't run it for that.
Toxapex walls Lopunny very well.
Landorus-Therian the best pokemon in the meta can check both
Celesteela is a very good Lopunny check, but has a trouble depending on the Diggersby set
Any ghost faster than Diggersby checks it
Faster normal resists beat both of them, like many scarfers (try Terrakion, Aerodactyl (not scarf so slower than lop), or Durant)
Priority users (wait what?!? anything that can take an espeed and ko it back works to check it)
Im getting there is counterplay, im asking if its enough? Just cause lando is popular mons doesnt mean its ok tbh, pex (the most common defensive mon in ou right now) walled every aegislash set and 4/5 of pheromosas sets, and spdef heatran (an already good common set) countered naganadel but they still got banned
As for

S rank:
Lando-T: Loses

A+ Rank:
Celesteela: Loses (so far I've proved nothing)
Diggersby : Wins
Ferrothorn: Prediction based in Lopunny's favor (Ferrothorn has to play games with King's Shield and Strength Sap) unless Encore Lop, which wins, or Ferrothorn is not at full health. I'll put this as a Win
Greninja-Ash: Wins
Lopunny-Mega: n
Thundurus-Therian: Loses
Toxapex: Loses
Zygarde: Set dependent. Defensive or bulky set up loses, and Band or Offensive Dragonium win. I'll give it 50/50

A Rank
Diancie-Mega: Loses if at full health
Greninja: Wins
Heatran: Wins unless Timid Scarf Eruptran, which is a roll
Magearna: Loses
Mimikyu: Loses (yes even with Fake Out)
Porygon-Z: Wins unless Scarf (I'm not sure what the most common sets for PZ are nowadays to be quite honest)
Rotom-W: Loses to defensive (the most common set)
Tangrowth: Loses
Tyranitar: Wins
Venusaur-Mega: Loses

A- Rank
Aerodactyl: Wins
Altaria-Mega: Loses
Chansey: Wins
Charizard-Mega-X: Loses without Fake Out, Roll with (I'll leave it as 50/50, which is generous imo)
Charizard-Mega-Y: Loses
Hoopa-U: (why is this this high on the viability rankings) Wins, needs Fake Out if Scarf
Keldeo: Wins unless scarf. I'll leave as 50/50, but I'm not sure that's right because I haven't used or seen Keld recently.
Magnezone: Wins
Mawile-Mega: Loses
Medicham-Mega: Loses without Fake out, Roll heavily in Medicham's favor with. I give to Medicham.
Pidgeot-Mega: Wins with Fake Out, Roll very heavily in Pidgeot's favor without. I give 50/50.
Tapu Fini: Loses
Terrakion: Wins unless Scarf. I give to Mega Lop.

That's the S and A ranks.

Let's total them up.

W: 14 L: 16 50/50: 4
I'm not doing Diggersby btw this took way too long
This is not accurate, youre not taking into account lopunny can set up on passive mons or switches
This is the correct one
Thing is, Lopunny-mega forces out the setup sweepers that fear FakeSpeed (even when it doesn't actually run it), including Ghosts, thanks to Scrappy.
Due to that, if predicted correctly, Lopunny can actually use a Swords Dance when the opponent switches, and then break through some of its checks with HJK and sometimes its useful 4th move slot.

Now, let's see what it can do after a SD :
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 404-476 (105.7 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO If Lopunny has Encore (and Scald doesn't burn), it wins.
+2 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 405-477 (168 - 197.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 390-459 (107.1 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 363-427 (119.4 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 313-370 (103.3 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Oh, and covering Drampa's Grandpa list of Lopunny-mega's 1v1 matchups :
Thundurus, Medicham-mega, Pidgeot-mega, Charizard-mega Y are all OHKOed by Extremespeed at +2.
Offensive Altaria-mega lacking Fake Out and offensive Charizard-mega X are also both OHKOed by +2 Espeed after Stealth Rock. (87.5% of the time for Altaria-mega)


What else? Well, having a partner like Magnezone helps it, as it can trap and kill Celesteela (unless Shed Shell), and Ferrothorn, in case it can't risk HJK against King's Shield.
But anyway, Lopunny-mega itself doesn't require much team support to do its job, even though it enjoys slow U-Turns and Volt Switches when it runs Fake Out.

But that's not everything.
Encore turns out to be really effective on it, as it can allow Lopunny-mega to use even more Swords Dances, and thus removing even more of its checks.
One of its main points of selling is that FakeSpeed invalidates some setup sweepers, but it turns out that Lopunny-mega can be a threat to both offensive and defensive playstyles due to Swords Dance and Encore.

Drampa's Grandpa already calculated Lopunny-mega's 1v1 matchups, so i have nothing more to say about it.

Honestly, i think suspecting the Lopunnite may be a good idea, since if Lopunny-mega really isn't unhealthy, then it will just be kept. (it's indeed not much of an argument, but the subject of Lopunny-mega would be more heavily discussed that way)
That's hardly "beats 90% of the metagame." Even excluding Lando-t and Celesteela it's an even 50/50 split. And I was trying to be generous to Lopunny with the iffy ones. The problem comes when you let Mega Lopunny get to +2 without punishing it in someway, either by bringing in a solid check/counter (Tangrowth, Buzzwole, Lando-t, Celesteela), havily damaging it, or statusing it, and honestly... letting something set up in front of you is a good way to lose in most tiers. At least here you can revenge things with... wait for it... Fakespeed.
Thats a wrong way to look at it, Its easier said than done its literally a 50/50 between sd and an attack everytime against something weak against it/slower than it unless u have a counter like steela/lando Thats like saying "naganadel isnt broken if u dont let it set up" its easier said than done
 
Physically defensive Gyarados seems to be a nice check to both Diggersby and Lopunny, as it avoids the OHKO even when they SD on the switch and can OHKO back with Liquidation or Beak Blast, while having Roost as reliable recovery. Celesteela on the other hand can't take a CC from +2 Lopunny, and Diggersby can simply run protective pads and 2HKOs Celesteela with Fire Punch while avoding Beak Blast burns.
 

EV

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I wanted to bring a matter up thats been getting on my nerve and i cant believe no one discussed it yet
I don't have to read the rest of your post to know right away you have literally no idea what you're talking about.
Physically defensive Gyarados seems to be a nice check to both Diggersby and Lopunny, as it avoids the OHKO even when they SD on the switch and can OHKO back with Liquidation or Beak Blast, while having Roost as reliable recovery. Celesteela on the other hand can't take a CC from +2 Lopunny, and Diggersby can simply run protective pads and 2HKOs Celesteela with Fire Punch while avoding Beak Blast burns.
Since when does Lopunny get CC?
 
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The thing is most of those normal type checks dont actually check any espeed, heatran does not actually beat any of the fakespeeders,
252 SpA Heatran Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 220-259 (81.1 - 95.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
This is perfectly reasonable damage on Lop considering that it has to set up and doesn't carry recovery. Scarf Eruption does more, but is riskier cuz espeed. In return...
+2 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 129-152 (39.9 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Can't kill with espeed so gets hit before it can HJK.
so many things switch in on terra for free so its not that good imo
What? Terrakion is hardly meta defining but it's definitely good.
, blace loses to lopunny since scrappy is dumb,
this may be a good place to mention that you're ignoring the fact that a) I only mentioned Blac as a Diggersby check and B) my point that different mons can have different checks and that's ok.
the only 3 pokemon on these list that reliably counter espeeders are lando, celesteela and slowbro (necrozma drops to +2 espeed from lopunny)
You seem to have some trouble with the idea of checks v counters.

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

These Pokemon have a lot of checks and a lot fewer counters.

Some Lopunny counters are Buzzwole and Quagsire.

Most of the things that have been mentioned are checks. They don't switch in but they can revenge or be pivoted in very well. Some things are also technically checks but can behave like counters in most of your matches (Landorus-t can drop to two Ice Punches on switch in, but that's not a popular move)

Also not all espeeders have the same checks and counters and that's ok.
At least blace, terrakion, aerodatcyl outspeed porygon since 90 base speed is not really good, or can be killed with priority mach punch, lopunny on the other hand...

I mean yes its good for the metagame imo, but im talking specifically about lopunny and to a lesser extent, diggersby, which abuse it too well

It does matter imo , instead of being able to revenge diggersby with water shuriken greninja or mach punch it they both just drop to an espeed, and its fairly unfair considering how high the bp is

Maybe it isnt and im just salty, but i think a lopunnite suspect wont hurt if theres enough support for it
Popular support has to be backed up by solid reasoning, and I'm sorry, your reasoning so far hasn't been very good.

Thanks for responding, anyways wanna respond to some points u made

Im pretty sure there was an espeed clause, not the same thing but it is something
Gen 5 had a normal clause and gen 6 had a weird... no learning both status and attack moves clause for awhile.
Im getting there is counterplay, im asking if its enough? Just cause lando is popular mons doesnt mean its ok tbh, pex (the most common defensive mon in ou right now) walled every aegislash set and 4/5 of pheromosas sets, and spdef heatran (an already good common set) countered naganadel but they still got banned
I acknowledge that having counterplay is not the same as not being broken, which is why it's important to play the meta more than a little bit you get a feeling for what counterplay works, and what is too restricting or situational. Lopunny, while very good and has been discussed for S tier, is not excessively restricting to higher level players. And Diggersby is nowhere close.
This is not accurate, youre not taking into account lopunny can set up on passive mons or switches
This is the correct one




Thats a wrong way to look at it, Its easier said than done its literally a 50/50 between sd and an attack everytime against something weak against it/slower than it unless u have a counter like steela/lando Thats like saying "naganadel isnt broken if u dont let it set up" its easier said than done
Lopunny is not like Naganadel, and stabmons is not like ou. In my experience Naganadel didn't even need a turn to set up versus offense it just needed a ko for the speed boost and it could sweep. Versus stall it could Nasty Plot easily and beat common set up counters like Clefable. It was also broken in Stab btw.

It had fewer checks and counters than lopunny being at +1 speed made it far more difficult to revenge than lopunny (remember if lop is outsped it has to espeed).

I'll admit the 1v1 scenarios probably weren't the best way to showcase things. I suppose the point I was making more than anything was that Lop can't set up on a ton of things, except versus bulkier teams which should have a pretty hard counter, and often bring 2 without even trying.

Very informative and nice snarky one liner, you definitely added so much to the discussion replying to the two posts above yours
This post seems unnecessary and tbh you're doing the exact same thing you just accused him of. Let's not full the thread with spam.
 
How can Zard X learn Dragon Hammer if none Pokemon of Charizard line don't have Dragon-Type? Also, could be possible to add Photon Geyzer to M-Medicham moveset?
You are absolutely right on both counts. Here's the slightly edited version.
http://pokepast.es/4520e32539e48053
Changed those two things (just slipping in Photon Geyser over Psychic Fangs) and added Psychic back to LO Blacephalon because Wishes took it off
252 SpA Life Orb Blacephalon Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 134-160 (44 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Blacephalon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 161-192 (52.9 - 63.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
It's worthwhile ok

Looking through we're also still missing several megas (ones which were added after the initial set list was made). I'd add them in myself but I'm not that familiar with all of them. I'll give it my best shot by someone else might wanna do them...

Mons we're missing sets for include (and the sets i think we need):
Diancie-Mega: Primarily Physical, Special
Latias-Mega: Calm Mind Sweeper
Latios-Mega: Probably not worth mentioning
Swampert-Mega: Rain Sweeper, SpD

Latias-Mega (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Stored Power / Psystrike / Photon Geyser
- Core Enforcer / Substitute / Refresh

Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Head Smash / Diamond Storm
- Play Rough
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock / Accelrock

Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock / Calm Mind

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crabhammer
- Precipice Blades
- Ice Punch
- Rain Dance

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Liquidation / Scald
- Earthquake / Earth Power / Roar
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Shore Up


A few things :
  • As Medicham-mega can, Hoopa-Unbound also can learn Photon Geyser for its physical set.
  • Blacephalon can run an unique EV spread on some of its Hasty/Naive sets to get speed from beast boost : 212 Atk / 20 SpA / 252 Spe. (everything else in HP,Def or/and SpD)
    That doesn't change Blace's role and utility, but makes it able to snowball if it gets a kill. Maybe worth noting.
  • Diggersby can run the protective pads against King's Shield and abilities like Iron Barbs.
  • Arena Trap is banned, so Dugtrio is now pointless.
  • Ferrothorn can run King's Shield as an option.
  • On the Megachomp set, the EVs and the ability merged ("Ability: Rough Skin 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe"), making it impossible to copy/paste it properly.
  • Komala is banned
  • Rotom-Heat can run an effective Z-Forest's Curse set.
  • Sableye-mega can run Spectral Thief/Topsy-Turvy as an option.
  • Baton Pass was banned.
  • There's no Mega Tyranitar set.
I must go right now, but i'll complete that list of things later.

EDIT :
  • Yanmega can also run a Tinted Lens + Quiver Dance set.
And... that's all.
http://pokepast.es/d524256802e4f565
Edited in most of those things.
Wanted: Mega Ttar set
Z-Forests Curse Rotom-H set (is that really a thing?)
I left Blacephalon as is because nothing else has alternate EVs, and I don't think the set you mentioned should be the main one. Not that it's unviable, I just think that being able to fully invest in attack stats and get the boost in an attack stat is more useful as a baseline.
 
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You are absolutely right on both counts. Here's the slightly edited version.
http://pokepast.es/4520e32539e48053
Changed those two things (just slipping in Photon Geyser over Psychic Fangs) and added Psychic back to LO Blacephalon because Wishes took it off
252 SpA Life Orb Blacephalon Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 134-160 (44 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Blacephalon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 161-192 (52.9 - 63.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
It's worthwhile ok

Looking through we're also still missing several megas (ones which were added after the initial set list was made). I'd add them in myself but I'm not that familiar with all of them. I'll give it my best shot by someone else might wanna do them...

Mons we're missing sets for include (and the sets i think we need):
Diancie-Mega: Primarily Physical, Special
Latias-Mega: Calm Mind Sweeper
Latios-Mega: Probably not worth mentioning
Swampert-Mega: Rain Sweeper, SpD

Latias-Mega (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Stored Power / Psystrike / Photon Geyser
- Core Enforcer / Substitute / Refresh

Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Head Smash / Diamond Storm
- Play Rough
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock / Accelrock

Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock / Calm Mind

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crabhammer
- Precipice Blades
- Ice Punch
- Rain Dance

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Liquidation / Scald
- Earthquake / Earth Power / Roar
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Shore Up
One question: Is baton pass banned here? Why Scolipede sets still include the Baton Pass one?
 
http://pokepast.es/627c8d4e280700d7

sample sets were updated again^

s/o drampa's grandpa for help w/ sets and giving me an up arrow
A few things :
  • As Medicham-mega can, Hoopa-Unbound also can learn Photon Geyser for its physical set.
  • Blacephalon can run an unique EV spread on some of its Hasty/Naive sets to get speed from beast boost : 212 Atk / 20 SpA / 252 Spe. (everything else in HP,Def or/and SpD)
    That doesn't change Blace's role and utility, but makes it able to snowball if it gets a kill. Maybe worth noting.
  • Diggersby can run the protective pads against King's Shield and abilities like Iron Barbs.
  • Arena Trap is banned, so Dugtrio is now pointless.
  • Ferrothorn can run King's Shield as an option.
  • On the Megachomp set, the EVs and the ability merged ("Ability: Rough Skin 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe"), making it impossible to copy/paste it properly.
  • Komala is banned
  • Rotom-Heat can run an effective Z-Forest's Curse set.
  • Sableye-mega can run Spectral Thief/Topsy-Turvy as an option.
  • Baton Pass was banned.
  • There's no Mega Tyranitar set.
I must go right now, but i'll complete that list of things later.

EDIT :
  • Yanmega can also run a Tinted Lens + Quiver Dance set.
And... that's all.
 
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Uh some things I want to point out
  • Alakazam-Mega can use Psycho Boost for dealing with things such as Lando and Zygarde better and could probably be slashed over Shadow Ball or CM
  • I dont see the point on having a Z-ToT Mimikyu set. Its stupid weak and its walled by very popular things like pex/lando/ferro/celesteela etc. If anything slash ToT in the SD with Shadow Sneak
  • I suggest removing Stored Power on the Z-ToT Blacephalon set and add dbond instead. I dont think stored power hits anything that dual stab doesnt already, unless im missing something. DBond lets u take out TTar and its quite good paired with things like PZ/Pidgeot/Mega Latias
  • Ive been using Autotomize Celesteela for quite a while and I think Oblivion Wing should be the main flying stab on the special set since its more reliable and gives recovery for annoying things like FakeSpeed.
  • I dont get why theres so much Magearna sets. physical shift gear just seem bad because it loses to a lot of popular mons (landot, pex, ferro, tran steela etc) and id just use autotomize mawile or something instead. Also cm moonlight doesnt seem that good either (loses to most mons that shift gear loses to). special sg should have a mention tho
  • Volcarona is using extrasensory even tho it has psychic
  • Regular gyarados can should use roost on the substitute set, and the attack should be drill peck/liquidation
  • Latios should have a Scarf set, probably over Garchomp. Ive been using it for a while with Psystrike/Core Enforcer/Trick or Defog/Lunar Dance.
  • Tapu Bulu SD set should slash Spore with Play Rough
  • Ursaring doesnt need 2 sets, just make it a single one and slash fake out with SD
  • Mega Latias should have a set, either CM Stored Power or CM 2 attacks roost.
 
Uh some things I want to point out
  • Alakazam-Mega can use Psycho Boost for dealing with things such as Lando and Zygarde better and could probably be slashed over Shadow Ball or CM
  • I dont see the point on having a Z-ToT Mimikyu set. Its stupid weak and its walled by very popular things like pex/lando/ferro/celesteela etc. If anything slash ToT in the SD with Shadow Sneak
  • I suggest removing Stored Power on the Z-ToT Blacephalon set and add dbond instead. I dont think stored power hits anything that dual stab doesnt already, unless im missing something. DBond lets u take out TTar and its quite good paired with things like PZ/Pidgeot/Mega Latias
  • Ive been using Autotomize Celesteela for quite a while and I think Oblivion Wing should be the main flying stab on the special set since its more reliable and gives recovery for annoying things like FakeSpeed.
  • I dont get why theres so much Magearna sets. physical shift gear just seem bad because it loses to a lot of popular mons (landot, pex, ferro, tran steela etc) and id just use autotomize mawile or something instead. Also cm moonlight doesnt seem that good either (loses to most mons that shift gear loses to). special sg should have a mention tho
  • Volcarona is using extrasensory even tho it has psychic
  • Regular gyarados can should use roost on the substitute set, and the attack should be drill peck/liquidation
  • Latios should have a Scarf set, probably over Garchomp. Ive been using it for a while with Psystrike/Core Enforcer/Trick or Defog/Lunar Dance.
  • Tapu Bulu SD set should slash Spore with Play Rough
  • Ursaring doesnt need 2 sets, just make it a single one and slash fake out with SD
  • Mega Latias should have a set, either CM Stored Power or CM 2 attacks roost.
Also:

Ash-Greninja requires 31 Attack IVs
Charizard X can't use Dragon Hammer because it only becomes Dragon type after Mega Evolving
 
Uh some things I want to point out
  • Alakazam-Mega can use Psycho Boost for dealing with things such as Lando and Zygarde better and could probably be slashed over Shadow Ball or CM
  • I dont see the point on having a Z-ToT Mimikyu set. Its stupid weak and its walled by very popular things like pex/lando/ferro/celesteela etc. If anything slash ToT in the SD with Shadow Sneak
  • I suggest removing Stored Power on the Z-ToT Blacephalon set and add dbond instead. I dont think stored power hits anything that dual stab doesnt already, unless im missing something. DBond lets u take out TTar and its quite good paired with things like PZ/Pidgeot/Mega Latias
  • Ive been using Autotomize Celesteela for quite a while and I think Oblivion Wing should be the main flying stab on the special set since its more reliable and gives recovery for annoying things like FakeSpeed.
  • I dont get why theres so much Magearna sets. physical shift gear just seem bad because it loses to a lot of popular mons (landot, pex, ferro, tran steela etc) and id just use autotomize mawile or something instead. Also cm moonlight doesnt seem that good either (loses to most mons that shift gear loses to). special sg should have a mention tho
  • Volcarona is using extrasensory even tho it has psychic
  • Regular gyarados can should use roost on the substitute set, and the attack should be drill peck/liquidation
  • Latios should have a Scarf set, probably over Garchomp. Ive been using it for a while with Psystrike/Core Enforcer/Trick or Defog/Lunar Dance.
  • Tapu Bulu SD set should slash Spore with Play Rough
  • Ursaring doesnt need 2 sets, just make it a single one and slash fake out with SD
  • Mega Latias should have a set, either CM Stored Power or CM 2 attacks roost.
I agree with most of this, but i have to disagree about Sub Gyara running Drill Peck.
That's a big loss in power, and you've got Leftovers anyway.

Actually, Core Enforcer on Latios is quite useless as Core Enforcer supressing the abilities of switching mons was actually an error. (it should work like Payback, but instead of raising damage, suppressing ability)

Anyway, i also have things to add :
  • That Hurricane + Thunder Zapdos set is just bad, even under rain. And anyway, Thundurus-Therian does the job better. Thundurus-Therian also lacks sets.
  • Those Nidoking sets doesn't seem to have niches, nor look good. The second one doesn't even get anything from STABmons.
  • Bullet Punch could be mentionned on Mawile-Mega, as it gives it a more reliable priority than Sucker Punch. Talking about that, Mawile-Mega's non-SD set doesn't seem really good to me.
  • I don't think the Quiver Dance Araquanid set is needed. Even at +1 it's still slow... Tail Glow + Water Shuriken does the job much better.
Of course, that's just my opinion, they may be effective and i just don't notice it.
 
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