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Stall Breakers
- Thread starter Stallion
- Start date
As long as shoddybattlers don't realize how good Roserade is as a pokemon, then I'll keep using my good ol Toxic Spikes to mop them up.
There are no OU poison pokemon without levitate/flying. Roserade is the most popular, and as powerful as it is, it isn't exactly being used right now.
Sure, shuckle can rest off the poison, but next time it comes back in... it's poisoned again.
I highly doubt that tspikes are a passing fad, at least for stall teams. Stall teams might be a passing fad and people will go back to using their offensive teams, but tspikes are so highly effective that they aren't going to be forgotten so easily.
And noir, making it easier for you to get a spin in against an opposing stall team, which sometimes is all you need to do.
QFT. Infernape is possibly the single best stall breaker in the game, and Toge is an absolute beast.
I personally find that a lot of the mixed attackers like Infernape and Electivire really aren't that great when faced with the reality of Cresselia being on nearly every team. The purpose of those pokemon is to boost up whatever stat they need and go nuts, but when one pokemon walls and shuts them down like it's nothing, and that pokemon is almost as common as Blissey, you have a problem. Just look at Medicham and why it considers using Double Edge just to beat the damn thing.
The best stall breakers I've found are Breloom and Gengar. Breloom running Sub/seed/spore/FP, with it's quasi-immunity to status, can outstall nearly anything it wants that's slower than it, and that's without it putting the target to sleep. Gengar is just scary. You never know what it's carrying and it can completely destroy you while you're in the process of finding out. There's almost always something on your team that's safe from it, but will it put that to sleep? Will a couple other pokemon die before you find the right counter? It's a menace.
If it weren't for Gliscor and Weezing, Heracross would certainly be up there. Mine still does a damn good job of wrecking things, but I don't run it without Wish support. Seriously, I think somehow people still underestimate the damage CB Hera does when Guts is activated. It's usual counters need to be at full HP to even hope to survive. Of course, most people seem to run Scarfcross, which is much easier to deal with.
The best stall breakers I've found are Breloom and Gengar. Breloom running Sub/seed/spore/FP, with it's quasi-immunity to status, can outstall nearly anything it wants that's slower than it, and that's without it putting the target to sleep. Gengar is just scary. You never know what it's carrying and it can completely destroy you while you're in the process of finding out. There's almost always something on your team that's safe from it, but will it put that to sleep? Will a couple other pokemon die before you find the right counter? It's a menace.
If it weren't for Gliscor and Weezing, Heracross would certainly be up there. Mine still does a damn good job of wrecking things, but I don't run it without Wish support. Seriously, I think somehow people still underestimate the damage CB Hera does when Guts is activated. It's usual counters need to be at full HP to even hope to survive. Of course, most people seem to run Scarfcross, which is much easier to deal with.
Calm Mind Lucario is certainly an option to breaking CressBliss combo. I use a subsalac set with calm mind. After a few Acid Armors and a Sub from Vaporeon, Lucario can certainly rip apart teams.
I use this set
Lucario@Salac Berry
Modest
6Def, 252Spa, 252Spd
-CM
-Substitute
-Shadow Ball
-Aura Sphere
The usual Cresselia is the Restalking one, so Lucario can take advantage the two turns and set up with help from Vaporeon etc.
I use this set
Lucario@Salac Berry
Modest
6Def, 252Spa, 252Spd
-CM
-Substitute
-Shadow Ball
-Aura Sphere
The usual Cresselia is the Restalking one, so Lucario can take advantage the two turns and set up with help from Vaporeon etc.
I think this is getting intereseting, first we used to have a complete offensive metagame when Diamond and Pearl came out, we still have some ofensive teams but like other people said the number of stalling teams is increasing quickly, I remember when some people said that this metagame is full offense, now it's the time to make new Wallbreakers, like i always say there isn't an invincible team, just stronger teams with few Weaknesses but if you can break one main point in their defensive walls they will fall.
SpecsLucario is good for breaking walls like SkarmBliss, WeezingBliss even GliscorBlissey and BronzongBliss but when Cresselia is in in the game you have troubles trying to predict their move cuz Cresselia can resist AuraSphere even if it has x1.5 from Cspec, maybe if you add CBpursuit Tyranitar that would be OK, I find funny breaking walls using SubPassVaporeon and pass the substi to a "PokeProblem" like mixed Lucario, Heracross, ChainChomp (or a Swords dancer Garchomp) , Tyranitar, Infernape, Electivre, Mixed Salamence or the Pretty CalmMindMagius, etc.
You can also add Infernape, Flygon, Staraptor, Ambipom U-turn + Magnezone or Dugtrio in order to kill things like Skarmory, Forretress or Metagross, Tyranitar, etc.
SpecsLucario is good for breaking walls like SkarmBliss, WeezingBliss even GliscorBlissey and BronzongBliss but when Cresselia is in in the game you have troubles trying to predict their move cuz Cresselia can resist AuraSphere even if it has x1.5 from Cspec, maybe if you add CBpursuit Tyranitar that would be OK, I find funny breaking walls using SubPassVaporeon and pass the substi to a "PokeProblem" like mixed Lucario, Heracross, ChainChomp (or a Swords dancer Garchomp) , Tyranitar, Infernape, Electivre, Mixed Salamence or the Pretty CalmMindMagius, etc.
You can also add Infernape, Flygon, Staraptor, Ambipom U-turn + Magnezone or Dugtrio in order to kill things like Skarmory, Forretress or Metagross, Tyranitar, etc.
That Lucario set Leona posted looks fun. Seriously, sub+an unexpected moveset destroys these stall teams. MixGross and MixLuke are both dangerous when behind a sub and they both work really well with a sub passing Zapdos, resisting both rock and ice. Boah is also a fun pokemon that destroys teams that aren't prepared for it.
Breloom is another awsome stall breaker. Breloom doesn't mind SS that much thanks to poison heal and can even take advantage of their toxic spikes. The only thing most stall teams have that's close to a Breloom counter is Cresselia or Gliscor who both can be taken care of by TTar(Ice Beam is a fun move on TTar for Gliscor).
Infernape imo isn't as stall breaking as most people say. It is easily walled by Cresselia who can paralyze it or OHKO with Psychic. TTar is the only pokemon that can put an end to Cresselia no matter what and Infernape does not like SS at all.
Breloom is another awsome stall breaker. Breloom doesn't mind SS that much thanks to poison heal and can even take advantage of their toxic spikes. The only thing most stall teams have that's close to a Breloom counter is Cresselia or Gliscor who both can be taken care of by TTar(Ice Beam is a fun move on TTar for Gliscor).
Infernape imo isn't as stall breaking as most people say. It is easily walled by Cresselia who can paralyze it or OHKO with Psychic. TTar is the only pokemon that can put an end to Cresselia no matter what and Infernape does not like SS at all.
The only trouble I've ran into in regards to SpecsLucario against Blissey is that you have to hit Blissey when it switches in, otherwise it'll proceed to Thunder Wave, then Softboil the damage away/switch.
On the other hand, I've had many Skarms try to switch into Aura Sphere, since people still seem to expect a physical variants a lot more often.
On the other hand, I've had many Skarms try to switch into Aura Sphere, since people still seem to expect a physical variants a lot more often.
Unless you're running a super defensive Tentacruel than using Grass Knot on it is pretty silly considering Close Combat will easily maul Tentacruel despite being non-effective.
Are we talking mixape or pure physical infernape here? While it is unsafe for Tentacruel to switch into physical infernape, mixape is at best a 3-hit KO to it. With 252 HP EVs, Close Combat does 34.89% - 41.21%. If Infernape nasty plots on the switch, it only deals 37.64% - 44.23% with grass knot.
With 0 Sp. Atk EVs, Tentacruel then deals 78.16% - 92.15% to Infernape with Surf, a possible OHKO when life-orb is taken into account.
I'd call that a solid counter. Even with Nasty Plot, Mixape won't do anything to Tentacruel.
Dragontamer, part of staying for a long time in a community is knowing when and which fight to pick. Arguing that a Tentacruel is an able Infernape counter is not a good fight. It's a lot easier to let some people have their ways then attempt to convince people otherwise, whether you believe something is good at something or not.
That's impossible...
359 attack vs 394 defense, 80 power(*2 *1.5 *1.5), 444 max HP: 54.05% - 63.74%
359 attack vs 394 defense, 80 power(*2 *1.5 *1.5), 444 max HP: 54.05% - 63.74%
Ludicolo with Leech Seed and Giga Drain is pretty good at wearing down stallers, especially Blissey who really can't do much to it.
And theres the problem right there.
You've assumed extreme spread. The average Tentacruel mainly that of the Druidcruel variety normally runs -defense nature with no def EV's and only 76HP EV's at the very most, normally its no HP EV's. This is a normality.
If Infernape is running its minimal attack than it should hit around 43% regions disregarding any residual damage which is very naive in itself. If they decide to make Infernape even slightly stronger physically or if its physical Infernape or even CB than there goes your counter. Throw in the fact more than often Infernape should be faster.
If we assume its of the Utilitycruel variety than it does run alot more HP and take alot less. But then physical Infernape's can still pack Thunderpunch...
Either way I still wouldn't switch it head on into a Infernape which is usually faster. It looks good on paper but doesn't actually always work in practice.
In my newest Stall team I've been using a Taunt Gliscor. It is very effective at stopping Skarm from doing anything noteworthy and in general screws up a lot stat-uppers, Curselax being the most noteworthy. Since most of the WoW are slower, they usually can't bust through it either, including Ice Punch Dusknoir.
I've assumed my spread. 252 HP Evs, 76 Speed, and the rest in Sp. Def. Timid. Outruns base 90 speed and +nature 252 Heatran, sets up the spikes and gives me utility as well as surviving a Draco Meteor and returning a Blizzard (I run a Hail team, so blizzard will always hit).
I'll take an earlier quote from myself.
And if we go further back, the original poster posted...
Therefore, I assumed a Mixed Infernape.
Second, 43% damage from Close combat is still a 3 hit KO.
EDIT: I should note that the Close Combat turns the near OHKO (~90% damage) into a guarenteed KO due to the Sp. Def drop. Unless Infernape can always 2-hit KO Tentacruel, it isn't going to work.
Anyway, I admit it isn't a solid counter for all infernapes. It is only a counter to mixape. Scout for what kind of infernape you're dealing with before you throw Tentacruel into the mix, or take the risk. Ice Beam Blissey doesn't counter Salamence for example, only Specsmence. But that doesn't stop most people from throwing blissey at Salamence.
for stalling SS teams, Mixed Infernape does do quite a bit of damage to just about everybody. except that his main problem, ive noticed, is that he usually has no room in the set to carry HP Ice. therefor, SV Garchomp is able to finish it off, taking little from Flamethrower / Grass Knot and surviving CC.
I'm not here to convince anyone anything. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. If I am right, then I am right. I assume Forsety is mature enough to take criticism, and I am ready to be proven incorrect if the debate unfolds in that direction.
Exactly what does Sv stand for?
Nowadays, the Garchomps I run into don't carry CS so Infernape can still outspeed and kill it if Garchomp switched in on the first CC.