Other Stall

Status
Not open for further replies.
I disagree. The reason I think you don't see stall on lower tier is because stall is primarily a different approach to battling and isn't always considered until you become more experienced with the strategy.

The objective in Pokemon battles is to bring your opponents down to 0 Pokemon. Now, when you play the game you'll typically go through with a hard sweep. I mean, as a kid I recall all of us playing Red or Blue would use Fire Spin/Fly/Flamethrower/Fire Blast Charizard or something like that. You learn quickly that quality trumps quantity in game and that hitting hard is best since you try for OHKOs. When you begin your adventures in tiered games and competitive play, you keep pretty much that opinion of battling. So you grab the biggest, meanest sweepers and throw them as hard as you can...and pray for a win.

But as you play more, you begin to realize the intricate details. There's another approach to the game. It's much dependant on planning before the battle even begins but is just as viably. This is where stall comes in. The "don't lose" mentality of stall over "win now" is somewhat counter intuitive. As the alternative not typically learned in game, it requires a different approach and basically is grounds up learning. It's only once you experience that shift that you really change over I find.
 
Well, the AI doesn't switch in games so spike damage is kind of hard to garner :/

No adjustments/advice on the intro? I know it could use work.
 
I've found that Band Terrakion and Landorus-I can wreak the VenuTran + SkarmBliss core, especially with pursuit support. Band-Terrakion obviously destroys Chansey and Heatran, but it also 2HKO's Skarmory with CC. It can 2HKO Mega-Venesuar with stone edge, and deal a solid 67-79% over two turns with close combat, which means Venusaur has to be at a reasonably high health to take even that, especially if stealth rock is down (which is hard to clear from Terrakion seeing that its 2HKO'd). Landorus can 2HKO Venusaur, Heatran, Skarmory and deal 39.8 - 47% damage to 4 HP/ 252 SpD Blissey or 36.9 - 43.6% to Chansey. Banded Tyranitar, in conjuncture with either of these can pursuit a chuck of damage away from Vensuar and/or Chansey/Blissey in order to ensure 2HKO's on everything.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 56k
I'll take a shot at revising the introduction for you.

My general philosophy is, tell the readers what they need to know as soon as possible. I'll try to go for the "inverse pyramid" style and work out from there.

For generations, stall has been a controversial play style. Disliked by many as "Boring" and "Easy", stall doesn't exactly have a fantastic reputation.
The introduction here is redundant. The point is to admit stall as an controversial play style, but ASAP move towards the meat of what stall is. Furthermore, using the language of intermediate-advanced players will more precisely convey the "battling level" of the expected audience.

The Stall matches require more patience than is often present in the fast-paced hyper offense Wi-Fi world. But do not be fooled, every turn taken in stall is just as critical. The core concepts of Pokemon tactics... counters, checks, double-switching, teambuilding cores and prediction play just as much in stall as in any other playstyle. As such, this is not a beginners guide to stall, although a fantastic guide has been written by (I know they have articles, can't find the one I was looking for right now... link later w/credits to author).

The rest is a basic description of what the stall guide will contain. Naturally, we should wait until _after_ the stall guide is written before writhing that paragraph. :-p
All together, it reads like this.

Disliked by many as "Boring", stall doesn't exactly have a fantastic reputation.

Stall matches require more patience than is often present in the fast-paced hyper offense Wi-Fi world. But do not be fooled, every turn taken in stall is just as critical. The core concepts of Pokemon tactics... counters, checks, double-switching, teambuilding cores and prediction play just as much in stall as in any other playstyle. As such, this is not a beginners guide to stall, although a fantastic guide has been written by <insert article here>. Instead, this advanced guide will contain <Finish writing guide, then put a description of the guide here>.
Its much shorter, but I tend to prefer brevity.
 
There's still a bit of rough transitions there, so I'll smooth that over once more.

Disliked by many as "Boring", stall doesn't exactly have a fantastic reputation.

Stall matches require more patience than is often present in the fast-paced hyper offense Wi-Fi world. But do not be fooled, every turn taken in stall is just as critical. The core concepts of Pokemon tactics... counters, checks, double-switching, teambuilding cores and prediction are as much in stall as in any other playstyle critical to stall as they are to any other play style. [I feel this is almost more geared towards teambuilding than a battling stall guide. Well, the core part. Will add in later in a thesis statement?] As such, this is not a beginners guide to stall, although a fantastic guide has been written by <insert article here>. Instead, this advanced guide will contain <Finish writing guide, then put a description of the guide here>.
Disliked by many as "Boring", stall doesn't exactly have a fantastic reputation. Stall matches require more patience than is often present in the fast-paced hyper offense Wi-Fi world. But every turn taken in stall is just as critical. The core concepts of Pokemon tactics are as critical to stall as they are to any other play style. As such, this is not a beginners guide to stall, although a fantastic guide has been written by <insert article here>. Instead, this advanced guide will contain <Finish writing guide, then put a description of the guide here>.
I've been writing another essay so I haven't gotten to this nearly as quickly as I'd like to. To be honest, this shortened version feels clunky to the point that I really don't think I could use it...
 
Last edited:
As a matter of fact, there happens to be one that does: Manaphy. Not only that, but it's designed to beat the entire 6 member full-stall archetype which further includes Quagsire and a multitude of other stallers.

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Psychic
- Rain Dance

The secret to this sets success is combining the best aspects of Manaphy's 2 other main sets; the offensive Tail Glow set with Surf, Ice Beam and Psychic/Energy Ball, and the CM set with Scald, Rain Dance and Rest. The problem with the offensive set is that even at +6, Manaphy cannot 2HKO Chansey with Surf, and is easily Toxic stalled to death. Chansey simply switches in as Manaphy boosts to +3, uses Toxic as it boosts to +6, then spams Softboiled until Manny kicks the bucket. However, in the case of this set, Chansey becomes completely helpless: Manaphy boosts to +3 as Chansey switches in, boosts to +6 as it gets hit by Toxic, and then comes the game-ending surprise; Manaphy uses Rain Dance, curing itself of poison and boosting the power of its surf by a further 50%, which Chansey cannot handle:

+6 252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 8 HP / 248 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 412-486 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Having over 400 HP in combination with Leftovers means that Seismic Toss is also essentially helpless:

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Manaphy: 100-100 (24.7 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

The Rain serves another very important purpose: it bypasses the Unaware ability, allowing it to 2HKO Quagsire and Clefable:

252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire in Rain: 288-339 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable in Rain: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The Rain can be especially annoying for Clefable, who now gets the recovery granted by Moonlight cut in half if it's using that instead of the Wish + Protect combination (which it usually does now to free up space for other moves like Heal Bell) which means that even if it carries Calm Mind, Manaphy still checks it while Rain is up. Scald could theoretically be used over Surf as well, to further ruin Clefables day if you land a burn.

Then comes Mega Venusaur. If physically defensive Venusaur switches in as Manaphy uses Tail Glow, kiss it goodbye:

+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 382-450 (104.9 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If it's specially defensive, it still has a 1 in 3 chance of being 1HKO'd after Stealth Rock:

+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Any prior damage at all will be doom for Venu, but in any case Manaphy's bulk investment means that Megasaur can barely even 2HKO, and will simply die to another Psychic straight after regardless:

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 192-228 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Skarmory and Heatran need no explanation.

After setting up and beating the first wall, the rest of the core is obviously outright swept, and in your case even with Bisharp and Keldeo, both are 1HKO'd by Surf and Psychic respectively, and Manny will take little from any of Keldeo's or Bisharp's unboosted moves, basically extinguishing any hopes of a revenge kill. In essence, one shouldn't get too cocky when using VenuTran and SkarmBliss, they're not as impenetrable as they are often made out to be!
I'm fairly new to competitive battling and I've started using a stall team on the PO ladder (I guess?) and I was completely wrecked by Rain Dance Manaphy yesterday. So I guess this version is being used, and I can confirm it works, although this was my first time facing it and other people might be able to handle it better.
 
I'm going to start doing this work in hide tags for the most part as to not interrupt discussion. Peak in if you want. I'm still working on that paragraph because it's annoying AF to not have a good intro. So I'm going to outline what needs to be said... In my opinion.
Intro to topic of article (stall)
-Stall has been one of the major archetypes in pokemon for generations, and though it has undergone many changes due to the evolving games, it still remains a popular, albeit controversial, play style.
Short definition of stall
-As explained later in more detail later in this guide, stall aims to wear down the opponent to the point that the opponent can no longer break the stall team or were the opponent can no longer withstand simple attacks.
Focus of article
-This guide seeks to explore the concepts of battling with stall at a high level using input from knowledgeable users. This is not a beginner's guide to stall, although a fantastic guide has been written by <insert article here>. Instead, this advanced guide will contain <Finish writing guide, then put a description of the guide here>.

Stall has been one of the major archetypes in pokemon for generations. Though it has undergone many changes due to the evolving games, it still remains a popular, albeit controversial, play style. As explained later in more detail later in this guide, stall aims to wear down the opponent to the point that the opponent can no longer break the stall team or were the opponent can no longer withstand simple attacks. This guide seeks to explore the concepts of battling with stall at a high level using input from knowledgeable users. This is not a beginner's guide to stall, although a fantastic guide has been written by <insert article here>. Instead, this advanced guide will contain <Finish writing guide, then put a description of the guide here>.
That's just over 100 words for an introduction. I think that's about as concise and practical as I can make it. Adjustments?

Also:

[12:11] %AjTheEpic: TFL, what is stall?
[12:12] %AjTheEpic: Just in a simple answer
[12:12] @TFL: Stall is life.

Looking for good opinions, got TFL instead :/

kirant I'm not sure if you want to work on any of your suggested parts. I'm going to work on the "Know Your opponent's team" in Pregame scouting, at least part a. If, by your post, you want to write up something on a1 (Recognize counterleads) and a2 (Art of unpredictability), go ahead. I'm just covering the basics at this point.

Section 1: Team Preview

The team preview is one of the most vital tools to a stall team. Giving you time to figure out what pokemon are direly important to your win condition and an idea of how your opponent's team will function before the game begins is incredibly vital cannot be overstated. There are many ways to utilize this tool, though. Scouting an opponent's lead, identifying major threats to your team, creating match ups and getting an idea for what sets your opponent might have are all vital.

Identifying Threats:

When you built or imported the stall team you use, there was probably a threat list. Most stall teams have one, and it is incredibly important to read these before starting to use a new team. You probably have a way to deal with these threats, but need an idea situation. Spotting one of these major threats means you must play to not let that threat get too much of an advantage.

Threats can also refer to win conditions. Spotting a dragonite could easily suggest that it will be the end game dragon dance sweeper. Immediately, whatever check or counter you have to Dragonite becomes much more important and must not be foddered off as long as Dragonite is healthy. Setting aside a pokemon like Quagsire, Skarmory, or Slowbro is deal to make sure Dragonite has a hard time sweeping. Although a reveal of Charizard-X later on may make you believe that Dragonite has a choice band, guessing at a more common set means you'll be more commonly correct.

In the early game, it is best to have a check or counter set aside for every pokemon on your opponent's team. Finding secondary switches is also helpful. For example, a match between Ash Borer and myself had a team preview as follows:



From the preview, the obvious notes such as Chesnaught being set aside for Aegislash and Quagsire for Tyranitar are both easy. Sylveon and Porygon2 both should be left to take on Thundurus, and Sylveon might assist in checking Tyranitar, if it isn't a mega. My Gyarados will counter Ash's Landorus, as my gyara is specially defensive. However, if Ash's Gyarados is a mega, Quagsire can't handle gyarados, so I have to keep Chesnaught healthy enough to take both. That means Porygon2 might have to assist with Aegislash. Ignoring Mew, which is probably a defogger/stall breaker set, the team is incredibly offensive. Skarm seems almost entirely useless outside of setting/clearing hazards and maybe deterring some attacks from Gyarados or TTar.

All of this I gather from the preview. Many things can be wrong with my assumptions. The Thundurus could be physical defiant, making another Chesnaught help. Aegislash could run flash cannon meaning Porygon2 is my best option against it. Landorus could be physical, making Gyarados almost useless. However, he has two stealth rock setter possibilities and Landorus rarely sets, so I'm confident that his mega is gyarados. This means Quagsire should handle TTar on it's own and hopefully help with Thundy one TTar is removed.


Picking Leads:

Leads are one of the hardest choice in a stall match. With a good choice, you'll achieve an important objective very early on and have an easier time getting ahead in the game and even applying some pressure. However, bad choices can lead to multiple turns where you are under pressure and unable to gain any sort of advantage against your opponent. There are two major ways to pick a lead when playing stall: You can lead with a hazard setter or you can predict your opponent. Both have individual merits and are seemingly easy concepts, but there is a deeper level of thought behind the lead choosing. TFL and Yuttt both have slightly differing opinions on picking leads from the team previews.

TFL stated that he leads with his hazard setter, Krookodile, unless he sees something that can break his team (TFL, Showdown). The style forces the opponent to force TFL out if he wants TFL to not set hazards, and Krookodile's main checks are generally not hazard setters themselves. This means TFL will generally have hazards on the field regardless of what his opponent starts with. This method makes puts the opponent under hazard pressure almost immediately, which is incredibly useful to stall. For a team that can keep the hazards out almost indefinitely without letting them cleared once, this method is preferable. By setting hazards for your lead, you not only assume you can deal with anything your opponent does in that turn but you should be prepared to adapt a mentality of switching often and constantly pressuring your opponent's hazard clearer.

However, stall games are by no means short. Yuttt prefers to lead with a pokemon that pressures his opponent not through hazard support but by choosing a pokemon that will counter his opponent's most likely lead or give his opponent difficulty (Yuttt, Showdown). This method is preferable when your rock setter isn't necessarily good against your opponent's rock setter or hazard clearer. The philosophy behind this lead is that you will eventually get your rocks up and the initial pressure by strong walls or bulky tanks makes it hard for your opponent to start developing a foothold against your team.

With Yuttt's style, you must first be able to recognize what your opponent will lead with. Common hazard leads such as Deoxys, Landorus-t, ferrothorn and heatran all try to set stealth rocks early in the game and have a high percentage of coming out. Your opponent might try to predict your lead, though, so recognizing all their potential leads is very important. <@Kirant, this would probably be where yours would go if you choose to write up on that section. We can adjust this intro a bit, too.>

Both styles leave some room for considering a major threat to the team. TFL even explicitly stated he only hazard led when he saw his opponent had nothing to break his team right away. If you see a huge threat to your team, leading with a check to that threat may be the best option. For example, Kyurem-black is a famous stall breaker and this generation gives the common VenuTran stall core a great deal of difficulty. While Kyurem doesn't generally lead, if your opponent's lead isn't obvious, leading with a check to Kyurem-black is a great option. While they may come out with a hazard lead or a pokemon that forces your kyurem check out, the momentum lost by simple hazards or being forced out turn one is a lot less than the momentum lost has Kyurem come in turn one versus a Heatran attempting to set up stealth rocks. However, this completely defensive style should only be used when your opponent's lead isn't somewhat predictable and a large threat to your team is present.

So that's the start to leads/Pregame. Edit: That image would be bigger if not in hide tags so...

To the guy having issues with CM manaphy, it's worse than suicune... whatever you handle corcune with can handle manaphy. AV TTar might be a good check if you see rain come up.
 
Last edited:
kirant I'm not sure if you want to work on any of your suggested parts. I'm going to work on the "Know Your opponent's team" in Pregame scouting, at least part a. If, by your post, you want to write up something on a1 (Recognize counterleads) and a2 (Art of unpredictability), go ahead. I'm just covering the basics at this point.
Would love to - I'll post it up once done...just slightly swamped at the moment.
 
So recently, I started a project with Yuttt and Sansnickel (TFL is kinda reviewing for us, will be a bigger part in EV optimization and polishing hopefully), working on building a stall team... We decided not to be terribly concerned with uniqueness as long as it was able to distinguish itself from what we've seen commonly. Hasn't even come close, to be honest, to the standard core. What was interesting, and I was joking about it a little today, was the RMT thread that came up about building OU stall, quoting multiple similar teams and using them to justify a groundwork of how to build OU stall.

There is no denying these pokemon are common, but I think it stresses the point that a lot of people don't understand stall isn't kinda like Valentine's "Force of Nature". We have roles, kinda like the zard team, but ours aren't "Pursuit trapper, wall breaker, sweeper" but rather "Counter to Pokemon A, counter to B, counter to C" and within that we fit roles. Quagsire is used often as a zard-x counter. Venusaur is used to stop Azumarill, Mawile-mega and Conkeldurr, among others. So I found the post ironic, even though it did show a striking similarity in all the teams that I've seen since this gen came out. VenuTran, the rise of Quagsire, the rise to mediocrity of Suicune, the need of Skarmory... If you wanted the typical stall, it is literally VenuTran+SkarmBliss+Quagsire and one of (Aegi/Clefable/Suicune). But why this way? Well, it isn't a "Choose one" process because Venusaur and Amoongus have surprisingly different pokemon they can take, just as Quag and Suicune do.

Really, so far this is what has made me so excited about working with Yuttt and Sans, the absolute best anti-meta stall team users (Sans with his Pressure stall that you always can see him using, Yuttt abusing any number of teams with Mantine, Alomomola, Aggron-mega, Moltres or something of that ilk). So many different ideas, different lines of thought and different pokemon suggested. Obviously, TFL and I have been a tad closer to the meta for the most part (TFL started the quag rise and I was the first one to post a VenuTran core). In fact, TFL and I have a very similar line of thought (TFL is more quirky though) when it comes to building stall. I wanted to get Orda to help but he's not around so much. But even the differences in teambuilding is a cool thing to see. Yuttt is a "Stallbreaker first" sort of builder. As soon as we started, he named off all the stall breakers and wanted to start working on covering them. I prefer to cover what's popular, and I'm not quite sure what Sans does since he missed the first hour of working on a basic outline.

Also a bit less excited for Volcanion now... base Spdef is down by 20, even if HP, SpA are up by 10. Just doesn't seem like a fire type stall has yearned for. Mega Latias on the other hand still looks really cool. Doesn't take full knock off damage any more, has better defense and a more reliable Spa stat... Bisharp might even have to think twice before coming in so easily.
 
Here's an interesting question. What is the LEAST bulky pokemon that you players typically find on your stall teams? Something that is just so useful to use (perhaps it's powerful, or perhaps it has prankster, or haze, or toxic spikes, or it's a good hazard remover, etc) but it usually doesn't quite have the bulk or typing or reliable recovery to hang around for long. Typically 2hko'd by life orb STAB moves, only counters and checks a select few things, but still accomplishes its niche job.

Despite its low HP stat and SR-weak typing, I have been using Rotom-H on many of my stall teams lately. I find that having a fire STAB pays off immensely in many situations (and it's pretty hard to get a fire type on a stall team), the immunity to ground and spikes always helps of course, and utility moves like will-o-wisp, trick, volt switch, and discharge can all be useful on different sets. It still takes certain hits very well, packs Electric and Bug and Grass resists that Rotom-W lacks, and it's a really great switch-in to: Thundurus-I, Scizor, Pinsir, Ferro, Skarm, Mamoswine, Landorus-T, Aegislash, Scolipede, Mawile, Talonflame, Magnezone, and Bisharp.

Rotom-Heat @ Leftovers OR Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 144 Spd / 116 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk OR 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp OR Hidden Power [Ice]
- Pain Split OR Trick

The speed outpaces positive natured base 61s [Tyranitar, Aegislash, Magnezone] and neutral natured based 71s [Bisharp, possibly Breloom, possibly Tyranitar, possibly Tyrantrum]. It also significantly creeps a lot more than you would expect out there, especially bulky Rotom-Ws, bulky Landorus-T, bulky Dragonite, and uninvested 100s.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Rotom-H: 96-113 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Rotom-H: 90-107 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-H: 76-90 (25 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-H: 87-104 (28.7 - 34.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Rotom-H: 169-200 (55.7 - 66%)

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Rotom-H: 47-56 (15.5 - 18.4%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Rotom-H: 107-126 (35.3 - 41.5%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Rotom-H: 127-150 (41.9 - 49.5%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Rotom-H: 154-182 (50.8 - 60%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Rotom-H: 238-281 (78.5 - 92.7%)

The calcs don't demonstrate any kind of exceptional bulk, but Rotom-H can still do his job and counter/check/cripple what he's supposed to, sometimes even with rocks up.
 
Here's an interesting question. What is the LEAST bulky pokemon that you players typically find on your stall teams?
It's the unaware users, clefable and quagsire. Although they are not very bulky, they are incredibly important to stall, since they counter boosters. They do have reliable recovery though, so they generally stick around for some time.
 
Ok back from like college and ready to stall it up.

I did some play with my stall team from like 5 months back and it still seems decent, and functions well enough, I am just wondering if there are any tweaks to the current metagame I should make. The main difference I have spotted is that there are a lot more defensivish teams now, Blissey is kinda common now.

Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Spore
- Sludge Bomb
- Foul Play

Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
- Wish
- Softboiled

Tentacruel @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Sludge Bomb
- Haze

Hippowdon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Spikes
- Roost
- Whirlwind

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lava Plume
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Protect
So far the team functions pretty well actually, I might swap out Amoonguss for Venusaur at some point though, and maybe Gliscor over Hippowdon is worth testing out.
 
Last edited:
Of course I'd suggest chansey over blissey, especially if you go venu (which means sand force Hippowdon).

So I'm still working to break standard molds of stall... (My Triremes stall still runs exceptionally well due to anti-meta, so that's one win). Recently, I've been running this team:

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunderbolt
- Roost
- Defog

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 Spd
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Rest
- Taunt

Meloetta @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Magic Coat
- Heal Bell
- Psyshock

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Sacred Sword
- Stone Edge

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Protect
- Wish
- Heal Bell

Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SDef / 252 HP
Careful Nature
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake


So, Zap gets Lando-I, Chomp gets ZardY, Gyara gets (In non-mega) lando-i and Mawile [needs to mega to finish the deal] and bisharp in mega... Also gets ZardX basically indiscriminately. Meloetta gets Aegi, Cobal checks down Pinsir-m and Charizard-Y, Clefable walls off most everything fighting... I feel like Zapdos and Cobal are weak points... Cobal is just so weak and isn't a true fairy resist. Zap... just isn't that good, to be honest. Obviously one of their replacements has to go dual counter TF, the other Pinsir-m... I want a stall breaker, however the team doesn't necessarily require a defogger... Was thinking Lati but I have meloetta.

I've looked into replacing Colbal with Spdef Gliscor and Zapdos with P. Defensive Eelektross (don't diss until you try it). Not sure the moveset, but I think HPIce/FlameThrower/TBolt on elec needs to happen... Spdef glisc would use taunt, eq, roost, ice fang, I think... Lando-I counter so ice coverage godly. Suggestions?

Also, I might continue working on that stall doc in some future time...
 
Just wondering, in all these months I have been gone has anyone made a successful stall team featuring Forretress or some other rapid spinner? I am an ol'rapid spin fan myself and it seems like Tentacruel is the only one with a niche left anymore for stall. I am doing some quick theroymoning but it doesn't seem like any match the utility of it and just ends up being dead weight.
 
I actually use Rapid Spin quite frequently on stall teams. Mega Blastoise is the best spinner for Stall and is the one I use the most because most of the others just have too many drawbacks. It can beat most Hazard setters easily (Lando's, Hippo, Tyranitar, Excadrill, Deoxys, Heatran, Skarmory, Gliscor, and so on) and it beats all spinblockers. Paired with Wish Support from Chansey, it's been really good at keeping hazards away while also having a really good offensive presence.
 
I've seen AV Escadrill... Other than that, no... the time of wasting a spot to rapid spin and essentially weakening your team in the process is long over.
Agree. Forretress is absolutely useless in the current metagame. Anything can spinblock it, its complete setup bait, numerous things force it out, and also it has no reliable recovery, meaning its amazing defense in the long run does not serve it well.

It's almost sad to see how far Forretress has fallen since Gen V :(
 


That's a long time away :/ Yeah, most people apparently missed the memo because they can't stop using VenuTran... for the past few months, there's been a few better stall players pushing to make new teams and while it by and large has been successful, no one seems to catch on. Oh well, any playstyle that gets popular is going to have the wretched garbage that comes with sameness... It's just stall's pokemon aren't even movable as of right now...
 
I've never really used Heatran on a stall team this generation, even when Genesect was unbanned. I don't fully understand what it's meant to be countering. I found it better to check Genesect and Talonflame with Alomomola as Alo could check other things too, like Garchomp, Conkeldurr and Kyurem-B. I guess Thunderbolt variants would have caused trouble in theory, but between Protect and switching over to Chansey to scout I never felt like Alo couldn't handle the job. Admittedly Heatran does put up a better fight against most common Taunt users.


On an unrelated note, is anyone else feeling a bit put off stall at the moment? I've thought long and hard about it but I can't come up with a stall core that is as consistently successful or covers the metagame as well as the Chansey/Skarm/Quag/Amoonguss or M-Venusaur one. That only leaves 2 teamslots open for diversity, and having witnessed how effectively Gothitelle on fingerscrossed's stall team can be used to dismantle rival stall, I'm starting to feel like that's nearly always the superior choice for one of those team slots (sorry Mew). So that really just leaves one slot free, and as much as I do feel like I have good ideas for it, I'd still feel like I'm using just another rehashed version of someone else's team. Maybe I'm just not thinking outside the box enough, but that rehashed core to me represents the best stall can do at the moment.
 
Could Oblivious Mamoswine/Piloswine be good on a stall team? While their typing gives them weaknesses to Fighting, Steel, Water, and Grass moves, which combined with bad mixed bulk (in Mamoswine's case) is pretty bad for a stall Pokemon. However, they also have a good movepool and ability that lots of stall Pokemon would love to have, including Stealth Rock, Roar, Toxic, Protect, Avalanche, and Ice Shard, allowing them to act as phazers or toxic stallers (or both) that can only be taunted by Mold Breakers. Out of the Mold Breakers, only Mega Gyarados and Haxorus are both viable and have access to Taunt.

In Mamoswine's case, with minimal Speed investment, Avalanche can OHKO or 2HKO many Pokemon that can be dangerous for stall teams such as Deoxys-D (unfortunately without any Attack investment, only 3HKOes, and needs both maximum attack investment and a Life Orb to be a sure 2HKO), Deoxys-S, Landorus, Garchomp, and Mandibuzz (also OHKOes Haxorus). Out of these Piloswine can get Landorus and Garchomp for OHKOes with no attack investment, although it can only get a 2HKO at most on Deoxys-S and a 3HKO on Mandibuzz with no attack investment in exchange for the equivalent of 100/120/90 bulk with Eviolite (however many of these Pokemon can Knock Off its Eviolite, giving it slightly less bulk than Mamoswine and making it especially vulnerable).

Also, Jellicent and Politoed seem neat, as the former can counter Pokemon like Gothitelle (if Jellicent has Shadow Ball it has a 75% chance to 2HKO Gothitelle, Energy Ball 3HKOes it, Choice Specs/Choice Scarf only improve the matchup as long as it uses Shadow Ball, and it's immune to Shadow Tag), Landorus (can try to stall it with Toxic and Recover if it has knock off, beats it much more decently if it doesn't), and Keldeo, while the latter can trap Mega Charizard Y once it uses SolarBeam and deal heavy damage to it with Scald, and SolarBeam only 3HKOes it in rain because it's base power is lowered to 60.
 
On an unrelated note, is anyone else feeling a bit put off stall at the moment? I've thought long and hard about it but I can't come up with a stall core that is as consistently successful or covers the metagame as well as the Chansey/Skarm/Quag/Amoonguss or M-Venusaur one. That only leaves 2 teamslots open for diversity, and having witnessed how effectively Gothitelle on fingerscrossed's stall team can be used to dismantle rival stall, I'm starting to feel like that's nearly always the superior choice for one of those team slots (sorry Mew). So that really just leaves one slot free, and as much as I do feel like I have good ideas for it, I'd still feel like I'm using just another rehashed version of someone else's team. Maybe I'm just not thinking outside the box enough, but that rehashed core to me represents the best stall can do at the moment.
Stall has been my type for two generations and I don't think I'll change anytime soon. I prefer chess matches to rocket speed play and stall gives me the ability to systematically figure out my opponent and try to work them into a corner. Making one-for-one exchanges which inherently favour my opponent because of playstyle so it's a fun challenge.

My work has almost always been to break that stereotype a bit. I love having Pokemon with completely unexpected stall roles. For example Gyarados, while well known as a RestTalk Pokemon, is almost never expected in the role.

Currently I'm testing out Mega Charizard X in the role of a Fire type alternative to Heatran. It has some pretty gaping holes (including a 50% hit from Stealth Rocks unless you can get it out before that) but its unique typing and ability to be a mixed threat and act as a reasonably reliable WoW user outside of Heatran and Rotom makes it pretty interesting (WoW being my burn of choice since I love using Gyarados as a way to scout which Mega Charizard I'm up against, leaving me with no real Scald user. No, I'm not a fan of Quagsire).

On that note, is there ANY Pokemon out there which can come in on both Charizards? I think I've looked at it enough before but I've never found a good way to handle both. X I can manage to work around as Gyarados can Dragon Tail it out until it comes down to a numbers game. Y on the other hand tends to melt any special wall it faces not named Chansey...a Pokemon I'd prefer not to use because of SkarmBliss' association with Stall as a whole (and Skarm being my Mega Pinsir/Heracross counter of choice).
 
I still use Heatran, and I'm not ashamed of it. With Genesect gone, all stall teams might not need to fill a lava-sack shaped hole anymore, but Heatran's solid bulk and many resistances certainly do justify its use in OU.

Mega Charizard X, however, does seem like an interesting alternative with some offensive presence. If I were to drop the traditional specially-defensive VenuTran core, I wonder what kind of teammates X would need? Tangrowth? Slowbro?
 
Mega Charizard X, however, does seem like an interesting alternative with some offensive presence. If I were to drop the traditional specially-defensive VenuTran core, I wonder what kind of teammates X would need? Tangrowth? Slowbro?
I've seen it paired with Amoonguss and Quagsire. I do like Slowbro as an option on stall, but I think Quagsire is better because of Unaware, and all of the things it can deal with.

I'm also starting to wonder if Stealth Rock is as important for stall as it used to be. Spikes/Toxic Spikes have obviously become less ideal with Defog, but I see full stall teams not having any hazards at all. Do you think stall has really changed that much?
 
Last edited:
On an unrelated note, is anyone else feeling a bit put off stall at the moment? I've thought long and hard about it but I can't come up with a stall core that is as consistently successful or covers the metagame as well as the Chansey/Skarm/Quag/Amoonguss or M-Venusaur one. That only leaves 2 teamslots open for diversity, and having witnessed how effectively Gothitelle on fingerscrossed's stall team can be used to dismantle rival stall, I'm starting to feel like that's nearly always the superior choice for one of those team slots (sorry Mew). So that really just leaves one slot free, and as much as I do feel like I have good ideas for it, I'd still feel like I'm using just another rehashed version of someone else's team. Maybe I'm just not thinking outside the box enough, but that rehashed core to me represents the best stall can do at the moment.
The people still building VenuTran cores don't realize the best team in that archtype has been made... I've played with it multiple times and to my knowledge it is borderline unbeatable. Those on TFL's good side have gotten to see the whole team, as he doesn't even reveal it in his RMT (A shame, I'd nominate it in a second). It's basically unfair and all other stall following the same VenuTranQuag core are just doing it wrong... Words simply can't describe how awful it makes every other stall in that archtype look.

I've still been working on other versions... Got some help today on my most recent team and made some adjustments... It doesn't play like a stall team in the strictest sense of the word, as the bulk is much lighter in exchange for taunts and giving the player room to outplay the opponent. Skill-based teams in general (those that give players the chance to make the best of a matchup over the match being decided from the get-go) are hard to judge due to the creator having to judge his own ability to the success he's having.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top