Other Stall

[kirant]

Stop using the same stall teams and start getting creative! A lot of Pokemon are viable in stall, don't be afraid to try unexplored Pokemon.

A funny thought I had on this was a specially defensive AV Zygarde. It is surprisingly tough to break through on the special side without an ice attack. With a little Wish support to keep its HP high it can deal with major threats like Talonflame (sans Bulk Up) and Mega Charizard Y while taking on many neutral side. Can also work against non-HP Ice Landorus though the damage back is kind of middling and you'll be working off Life Orb damage a bit.

The only major problem I have is that it does very little offensively without special effective.

 

[Monte Cristo]

hi. guy who made stalltini here, going to retire my old type of stalltini team w/ an RMT soon enough so might as well give a hint to what new stuff I'm working on:

Yeah, Diancie. Anyways this team focuses around Gliscor-Victini-Diancie. The point of Diancie is that it will always reliably set up rocks and it can take on lead terrakion extremely well. I have more uses for Diancie's potential that I'm still working on. It walls Thundurus kind of and it really deals well vs Talonflame as a secondary wall so pdef gliscor has more chances to fall back and gather more health without being assulted by Talonflame every 2 turns. Victini often needs the wish support but I slash rest on last slot sometimes just for certain things. Oh also:
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Diancie: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%) -- 27% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
not even the most obscurely specially dedicated variants will easily take it out.
252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 122-144 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
same with physical sets *barring adamant CB fusion bolt which tangrowth loves to eat up*
I find myself switching between Diamond Storm, Moonblast and HP Rock for Diancie's last move (x/SR/Rest/Sleep Talk) or even removing stealth rock altogether and making that on Chansey. Also btw loving Assault Vest Tangrowth:
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 52+ Def Tangrowth: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 52+ Def Tangrowth: 150-177 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
and:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
and if its sludge wave: Chansey
if its calm mind: I'm fucked
this is why landorus is stupid broken and I think it should be suspected, but until that happens this team is going to have some trouble.

I might post an importable. (rn for the people who want to remake it: it's tauntroosttoxic pdef gliscor/stalltini/skarm/AV tangrowth/Chansey/Diancie)

 

[TIZNE]

Wow, Ajwf , that was a really insightful post. It really helps to know what is expected of a team from the very beginning. Yeah, I agree that your guide should be somewhere visible in the thread. Maybe even start a new thread for the new Aegisless meta with something like that.

Aegislash is awesome and all, but I thought it didn't deserved to be suspected. Individually it hasn't been dangerously efficient (unlike the Deos, for example). But it has for sure a deeper impact in the metagame than I have realized.

Nevertheless, I appreciate Aegislash capabilities of covering the 7-10 section. Suplementing that much to a team all by itself is of great help, particularly for non-Stall teams, since it adds power but it's also a "splash" check to a lot of offensive threats. I'm a bit worryed because I think that if Aegislash gets the ban, it would be more complex/diverse to handle offensive threats, which would be nice for a while, but then it will be just natural selection that the most speedy and powerful rise with unchecked power.
What do you guys think about the ban implications for Stall?

 

[HolyAvatar]

I wonder how you deal with belly drum Azumarill since at +6 your whole team is gone.
Mega gyarados can just wait to mega evolve and not even tangrowth may be able to stop it since:
+1 252+ Atk Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 52+ Def Tangrowth: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (actually it is 100% since it will mega evolve for the 2nd ice fang).
4 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 88-105 (26.5 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

I'm not convinced on Diancie handling CharX:
0 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 198-234 (66.4 - 78.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 194-230 (63.8 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Some replays would be nice :)

 

[Adrian Marin]

I wonder how you deal with belly drum Azumarill since at +6 your whole team is gone.
Mega gyarados can just wait to mega evolve and not even tangrowth may be able to stop it since:
+1 252+ Atk Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 52+ Def Tangrowth: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (actually it is 100% since it will mega evolve for the 2nd ice fang).
4 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 88-105 (26.5 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

I'm not convinced on Diancie handling CharX:
0 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 198-234 (66.4 - 78.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 194-230 (63.8 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Some replays would be nice :)

hi. guy who made stalltini here, going to retire my old type of stalltini team w/ an RMT soon enough so might as well give a hint to what new stuff I'm working on:

Yeah, Diancie. Anyways this team focuses around Gliscor-Victini-Diancie. The point of Diancie is that it will always reliably set up rocks and it can take on lead terrakion extremely well. I have more uses for Diancie's potential that I'm still working on. It walls Thundurus kind of and it really deals well vs Talonflame as a secondary wall so pdef gliscor has more chances to fall back and gather more health without being assulted by Talonflame every 2 turns. Victini often needs the wish support but I slash rest on last slot sometimes just for certain things. Oh also:
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Diancie: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%) -- 27% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
not even the most obscurely specially dedicated variants will easily take it out.
252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 122-144 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
same with physical sets *barring adamant CB fusion bolt which tangrowth loves to eat up*
I find myself switching between Diamond Storm, Moonblast and HP Rock for Diancie's last move (x/SR/Rest/Sleep Talk) or even removing stealth rock altogether and making that on Chansey. Also btw loving Assault Vest Tangrowth:
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 52+ Def Tangrowth: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 52+ Def Tangrowth: 150-177 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
and:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
and if its sludge wave: Chansey
if its calm mind: I'm fucked
this is why landorus is stupid broken and I think it should be suspected, but until that happens this team is going to have some trouble.

I might post an importable. (rn for the people who want to remake it: it's tauntroosttoxic pdef gliscor/stalltini/skarm/AV tangrowth/Chansey/Diancie)

Yeah, I have a general rule that AV Tangrowth can ONLY be used if you have a phys def Unaware Clefable or Quagsire. I do think Clefable could easily switch with Diancie, but you'll need a different counter to Talonflame if you do that. I really do like Diancie's role in that team.

 

[Monte Cristo]

I wonder how you deal with belly drum Azumarill since at +6 your whole team is gone.
Mega gyarados can just wait to mega evolve and not even tangrowth may be able to stop it since:
+1 252+ Atk Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 52+ Def Tangrowth: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (actually it is 100% since it will mega evolve for the 2nd ice fang).
4 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 88-105 (26.5 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

I'm not convinced on Diancie handling CharX:
0 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 198-234 (66.4 - 78.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 194-230 (63.8 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Some replays would be nice :)

when did I say diancie handled char X lol? I use pdef gliscor for it. I'm not saying this is the next stalltini team by any definition (I don't think I'll build a team better than that one for a while) I'm just putting it out there

 

[Sun King]

Wow, Ajwf , that was a really insightful post. It really helps to know what is expected of a team from the very beginning. Yeah, I agree that your guide should be somewhere visible in the thread. Maybe even start a new thread for the new Aegisless meta with something like that.

Aegislash is awesome and all, but I thought it didn't deserved to be suspected. Individually it hasn't been dangerously efficient (unlike the Deos, for example). But it has for sure a deeper impact in the metagame than I have realized.

Nevertheless, I appreciate Aegislash capabilities of covering the 7-10 section. Suplementing that much to a team all by itself is of great help, particularly for non-Stall teams, since it adds power but it's also a "splash" check to a lot of offensive threats. I'm a bit worryed because I think that if Aegislash gets the ban, it would be more complex/diverse to handle offensive threats, which would be nice for a while, but then it will be just natural selection that the most speedy and powerful rise with unchecked power.
What do you guys think about the ban implications for Stall?

The ban is going to force us to include answers to Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, and/or Mega Gardevoir. So far, the best answers to Medicham are Dark weak, so they're susceptible to Pursuit trapping. If offensive players catch on (which they will), Medicham is going to be a massive pain in the ass for us. Mega Gardevoir is going to be a tougher one to handle, but I'll still probably use Heatran and play around the Focus Blasts.

Will the ban make stall unviable? No. Will it make it harder for us? Absolutely.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

The Outdated Venutran stall:

Venusaur + Quagsire + Skarmory + Chansey + Heatran + Aegislash: is defeated by Landorus-I
Venusaur + Quagsire + Skarmory + Chansey + Heatran + Latias: is destroyed by Mega Gardevoir
Venusaur + Quagsire + Mandibuzz + Chansey + Heatran + Aegislash: Is destroyed by Mega Pinsir
Venusaur + Quagsire + Zapdos (spdef) + Chansey + Heatran + Aegislash: This variant is a little more reliable imo, but it struggles since Zapdos has a hard time surviving throughout a match. Mega Medicham (with Fire Punch of course) still roasts it, just like the others. To be honest, Zard-X stall has the same problem, Zard-X stall without Ferrothorn or Aegislash loses to Mega Gardevoir, and the ones with them normally lose to Landorus-I and/or Mega Medicham. I know stall is matchup-reliant this gen, but everyone's using the same variants of stall, so it's really annoying already.

Venusaur + Latias + Skarmory + Chansey + Heatran + Aegislash: beats most things

 

[Ajwf]

Nah, it'll flat up lose to knock off lando...

 

[Emmy2]

The ban is going to force us to include answers to Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, and/or Mega Gardevoir. So far, the best answers to Medicham are Dark weak, so they're susceptible to Pursuit trapping. If offensive players catch on (which they will), Medicham is going to be a massive pain in the ass for us. Mega Gardevoir is going to be a tougher one to handle, but I'll still probably use Heatran and play around the Focus Blasts.

Will the ban make stall unviable? No. Will it make it harder for us? Absolutely.

Honestly I'm surprised I don't see more of Medicham + Pursuit cores, seeing how Aegis is one of the only semi-reliable non-Psychic counters.

Mega Garde is handled quite nicely by Mega Scizor (which again, I'm surprised I don't see more use of on stall due to its massive bulk and good defensive typing, along with reliable recovery + priority)

 

[Sun King]

Honestly I'm surprised I don't see more of Medicham + Pursuit cores, seeing how Aegis is one of the only semi-reliable non-Psychic counters.

Mega Garde is handled quite nicely by Mega Scizor (which again, I'm surprised I don't see more use of on stall due to its massive bulk and good defensive typing, along with reliable recovery + priority)

I like Mega Scizor on stall, however, his biggest flaw is the opportunity cost of using up that mega slot. I think the main reason he's not more prevalent is because people are still using Mega Venu and StallZardX.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

Nah, it'll flat up lose to knock off lando...

What about cbbnite in place of latias?

 

[jbtc10]

Lately, I haven't been using mons that don't have a 50% recovery move or regenerator on my stall teams at all. I used to use them quite frequently and pair them with a Wish Chansey, but I still found that it was quite easy for them to get chiseled down to KO range which even Wish support couldn't reliably remedy, especially against offense which is the main style that stall has to build for at the moment. As much as I love mons like Victini, they can often turn out to be a bit of a liability because they simply have to rely on external support for longevity, which is difficult to achieve in practice when you actually need it against a strong team.

As for Megacham + Pursuit support, it's not too big of a deal for us since it doesn't help that much against Mew (who is the best Medi counter), since it can simply burn the Pursuit user and render it useless anyway.

Venusaur + Latias + Skarmory + Chansey + Heatran + Aegislash: beats most things

Would struggle with Megacham (HJK, Zen Headbutt, Ice Punch, Fire Punch) as there's no hard counter.

I've been using this lately; Zard-Y, Quagsire, Amoongus, Chansey, Skarmory, Mew. Basically "Fingers-crossed Stall" except with Mew over Goth because it's a much better stall mon. A bit bland perhaps, but has been getting the job done consistently.

 

[Sun King]

Actually, my favorite Mega Medicham counter is Cofagrigus. He can come in, immediately take away Pure Power, then either threaten to 2HKO or Burn. If you suspect your opponent will switch, you can nail the switch in with a Knock Off. Obviously, as I said, Cofagrigus is weak to the Pursuit trapping core, but if they use that, you can burn whichever Pursuit user they have.

 

[totoTavros]

Or just burn the incoming pursuiter.

 

[jbtc10]

Cofagrigus is cool, but it doesn't have reliable recovery and can only switch in on Medi once;

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 133-157 (41.5 - 49%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It gets 2HKO'd next time, which is why I ended up shying away from mons without instant 50% recovery, because in the long run they don't really wall the threat, they just prolong the issue and give the opponent the chance to grind you out.

 

[Sun King]

True, it doesn't have the staying power of, say, Cresselia. However, it's infinitely more threatening to switch into. If they choose to send Medicham out early, they're going to be forced to make a really unpleasant decision. If you pair it with Chansey and play smart, you can keep it out plenty long.

 

[Ajwf]

My issue with something like that is I could technically use Spirtomb or Sableye who are all around better ghosts vs MedichamM and not lose a lot of utility outside as well as recovery (Sable) or all around bulk (in tomb's case).

With impending doom of Aegislash, I suspect the defensive ghosts to rise will be Jellicent (counter Keldeo is back in buisness) and Sableye due to them being the only recovery efficient ghosts, also having the tailor made OU meta game roles to counter Keldeo/Azum (jelli) and MMedi/Stallbreak (sable). The only issue is Jelli is going to have to speed creep azumarill's max speed to burn before knock off.

 

[Rotosect]

I wouldn't speak of "impending doom" regarding Aegislash just yet since the anti-ban side is very strong this time around (unlike stuff like the Deoxys formes). I doubt it will be banned, but if it is then I belive Sableye is the only one that can take its place since it has Recover and great support potential.

 

[Sun King]

My issue with something like that is I could technically use Spirtomb or Sableye who are all around better ghosts vs MedichamM and not lose a lot of utility outside as well as recovery (Sable) or all around bulk (in tomb's case).

With impending doom of Aegislash, I suspect the defensive ghosts to rise will be Jellicent (counter Keldeo is back in buisness) and Sableye due to them being the only recovery efficient ghosts, also having the tailor made OU meta game roles to counter Keldeo/Azum (jelli) and MMedi/Stallbreak (sable). The only issue is Jelli is going to have to speed creep azumarill's max speed to burn before knock off.

That's a good point; I didn't think of Sableye when I was team building. Having played on the suspect ladder some, one of my biggest issues with defensive ghosts countering Medicham is that they open you up to Mega Gardevoir pretty badly. That said, I still think they're the best answer to him. As Ajwf said, you can't cover EVERYTHING, so you need to pick your weaknesses carefully. The problem with these new wallbreakers is that in order to counter them, you have to open yourself up to a lot of other threats. Maybe this is a bold prediction, but I think Mega Scizor might be the new major stall mega solely because of Mega Gardevoir. Scizor + Sableye/Spiritomb cores will help you handle the wallbreakers, but they're going to constrain your team building, and open you up to new threats that you could previously cover.

EDIT: Doublade looks interesting, as it can crap on Medicham with Shadow Claw + Shadow Sneak. Does anyone know how it fares against Gardevoir? (I'm away from the comp, so I can't run calcs)

 

[Ajwf]

Yes, i've used doublade on the suspect ladder. Investing Max Spdef, Gard has to attempt a 3hko and will probably land a 4hko with hyper voice... Iron head should 2hko. It does crap on Medi, and hera is running CC so it craps on that, too. The only issue is a slight lack of power and the fact that it doesn't take on the whole range of shit aegi did (due to mixed + KS + passive recovery). No Guard is kinda useless as toxic is like the only move viable enough to make use of it.... And now all Hydro Pumps and Fire Blasts hit.

 

[Sun King]

Part of my problem with mega Gardevoir is that all it needs to do is simply tweak its move set and it has a whole host of different counters. If it slashes HP fire, Scizor isn't safe. If it slashes Shadow Ball, Doublade isn't safe. Heatran is always a shaky switch in because you never know whether it's carrying HP Ground or Focus Blast. Gardevoir is one of those mons that you have to do a lot of scouting before you even know if you CAN counter it. By that time, your team is worn down and you've lost a lot of momentum.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Part of my problem with mega Gardevoir is that all it needs to do is simply tweak its move set and it has a whole host of different counters. If it slashes HP fire, Scizor isn't safe. If it slashes Shadow Ball, Doublade isn't safe. Heatran is always a shaky switch in because you never know whether it's carrying HP Ground or Focus Blast. Gardevoir is one of those mons that you have to do a lot of scouting before you even know if you CAN counter it. By that time, your team is worn down and you've lost a lot of momentum.

If Mega Garde has Shadow Ball, it's not carrying Taunt. Chansey and obscure fire types can take down Shadow Ball variants, the former should almost always be present on stall teams with Aegislash.

If Aegis gets banned, Mega Medicham basically doesn't need Fire Punch anymore, it can easily use Thunderpunch to nail Slowbro. Additionally, Mega Gardevoir's counters are going to be severely limiting. The main problem with Mega Scizor stall is that I feel it's hard to fit a solid Mega Mawile counter when using it. Mew does work well with it since it can take down non-knock off sets. I'm really excited for Volcanion, it's definitely gonna be a huge new stall mon.

 

[Sun King]

If Mega Garde has Shadow Ball, it's not carrying Taunt. Chansey and obscure fire types can take down Shadow Ball variants, the former should almost always be present on stall teams with Aegislash.

If Aegis gets banned, Mega Medicham basically doesn't need Fire Punch anymore, it can easily use Thunderpunch to nail Slowbro. Additionally, Mega Gardevoir's counters are going to be severely limiting. The main problem with Mega Scizor stall is that I feel it's hard to fit a solid Mega Mawile counter when using it. Mew does work well with it since it can take down non-knock off sets. I'm really excited for Volcanion, it's definitely gonna be a huge new stall mon.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up for me. And I agree--I'm highly anticipating Volcanion. The typing synergy he brings to the team is unreal--FWG core in 2 mons? He'll work nicely with defensive grass types, too, by threatening Fire types and Bird Spam with Steam Eruption. The fact that he also hard counters CroCune is a huge boon. Having a Scald immunity is really awesome--something that got Gastrodon the call on a few of my teams a while back.

EDIT: Sergeant Spooky you can Toxic stall it if you conserve your toxics.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

CroCune will just stall Volcanion out because that's how CroCune rolls.