It would, but you lose out on all of the other set's overall viability.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other Stall
- Thread starter ShootingStarmie
- Start date
- Status
You can build your team to check Mega Hera reasonably well without sacrificing overall usefulness, but yeah, reliably countering him is extremely difficult. What I'm doing now is upping my speed investment on my base 100's to reach 250 speed (requires 56 EV's instead of the usual 16, not too bad and doesn't detract from your bulk too much) and making sure they have a move which can cripple him (WoW) or hit him super effectively with. For example, Char-Y now checks adamant Mega Hera as it can fry him with Flamethrower before Hera can Rock Blast you. Mew now hits it with WoW, Zapdos can Heat Wave, and Celebi can hit him with Psychic/Psyshock (these last two don't OHKO, but do a large number, which means if you can wear Hera down a little bit, Celebi and Zapdos will both stop him from be able to sweep your team). Brave Bird on Skarm means Hera wont be able to do anything more than 50% to you. If you have a lot of these kinds of things on your team (and all of these moves are natural to use on the pokemon in question anyway, so there's not a huge opportunity cost or anything), you'll find that Hera is much more manageable.
One last thing is that Doublade (sick stall mon now) counters any set that doesn't have Knock Off / EQ, and thankfully, due to the Aegi ban, Hera's are now much less likely to have either of those moves.
Actually mew only needs 16 speed evs to outspeed adamant bisharp, but I did it anyway to speed creep other mews and gliscors. I have chesnaught to hard counter bisharp anyway. Knock Off mew is extremely helpful, knocking off leftovers, life orbs, choice specs etc. A decrease of 30%/50% is always good. Landorus isn't really an issue because I have gyarados and mew soft checks it too by removing its life orb. Gyarados also walls conkeldurr unless it has stone edge or thunderpunch which is very rare.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados: 110-130 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- 89.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Mew: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 77-91 (19.5 - 23%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
The main issue is NP thundurus who 2HKOs mew, however it gets worn down very quickly from life orb and burn damage, allowing me to play around it such as switching in gyarados on the hp ice and chesnaught on the t-bolt etc. Manaphy is also an issue. Maybe I should use SDef unaware clefable, idk. BD Azumarill too.
Here are a few stall mons I want to bring up right now that certainly have niches now that Aegi is gone.
Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Earthquake/counter
- Thunder Wave
- Roar
Thanks to intimidate, godly fairy typing and a massive move pool with things like counter, heal bell, superfang, roar, twave, and taunt as well as godly coverage Granbull can outright counter if not check most physical set up sweepers in OU. This set hard counters medicham, mega gyarados, terrakion, bandnite, talonflame, AV Azu and unboosted mega Hera, mega mawile and mega pinsir (not much counters a boosted Hera tbh). It also checks stuff like mega Ttar and mega zard-x leaving with paralysis and a little damage.
The set moves I'm using aren't the best but twave can neutralize most dragon dancers and play rough is stab. The next two slots can be whatever you want really to be destroyed rock slide can help with birds, fire punch and eq hit common steel switch ins hard, and superfang can hurt bulkier switch ins. It also has access to heal bell for team support although it isn't the most reliable. Taunt and counter can be used to hit boosters hard. Taunt should get a mention since ferro often switches into this thing and gyro ball does nothing.
Granbull isn't without it flaws though it has horrible special defence, horrible speed and no reliable recovery. Therefore wish support is pretty mandatory so alo or chansey is a must. A second intimidate user also helps Granbull out as he can now sponge hits better and be annoying spdef gyara and him do pretty well together and take on most physical threats except bd azu, mega Ttar, and mega pinsir
Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 184 Def / 76 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect
- Foul Play
Another poke that was great before the aegi ban and still has a very good niche in the OU meta is physically defensive umbreon why physically defensive umbreon and not specially defensive? It's access to STAB foul play and sufficient physical bulk allow it to check a large portion of the meta. The Evs I used were to guarantee the 3hko from pinsir before rocks as protect and wish can negate rocks damage this probably isn't important now that pinsir will be running close combat but it is still a pretty good bench mark to hit. This spread also allows umbreon to check CC pinsir still as he OHKOs after the defense drops. This spread also allows umbreon to take bisharp, greninja, non LO excadrill, non outrage kyub, mamoswine, rotom-w, and non focus blast thundy. Another cool thing about umbreon is he beats common stall breakers such as mew, and gengar thanks to his dark typing and synchronize. His main niche in ou is being a defensive dark type with reliable recovery something only mandibuzz shares. Umbreon also is one of the few physically bulky clerics out there which is useful with obscene physical attacker in the meta. Being a dark type gives him great resistance to two common attack types in the meta ghost, and dark. This pretty good since most stall team are going to need to fit mega hera, and cham counters on to their teams which are often ghost or psychic and need something to switch into ghost and dark attacks for them which umbreon can do fairly easily.
Jirachi and bronzong are both great mega garde counters. currently I am using jirachi here is my set.
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Atk / 80 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Wish
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
This spread allows you to outspeed adamant mega hera and ohko mega garde. I find having a little more oomph in your iron head is nice in general. Jirachi also can deal with calm mind fable fairly easily and provide a ton of team support thanks to wish and stall break with its annoying paraflinch combo. I know I am evil but since aegi is gone wynaut? Jirachi has an amazing movepool and change what its running to help your team thanks to its godly coverage. I find raichi is one of the best garde counters out there and can get rocks up througout the game as well as spread status quite easily. Not much else to say here jirachi is an annoying but good pokemon to have on stall. You can change what speed tier you want but outspeeding hera is great for a stall poke. I don't have calcs for this one as he can take on what he needs to such as the latiis clef and garde fairly easily thanks to his typing resisting most of their hits.
I use all three on a current stall build. Here is the team if you wanna give it a whirl.
The speed on Venu is to outspeed rotom-w and bd azu which helps more often than an extra bit of bulk in my opinion.
Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Earthquake/counter
- Thunder Wave
- Roar
Thanks to intimidate, godly fairy typing and a massive move pool with things like counter, heal bell, superfang, roar, twave, and taunt as well as godly coverage Granbull can outright counter if not check most physical set up sweepers in OU. This set hard counters medicham, mega gyarados, terrakion, bandnite, talonflame, AV Azu and unboosted mega Hera, mega mawile and mega pinsir (not much counters a boosted Hera tbh). It also checks stuff like mega Ttar and mega zard-x leaving with paralysis and a little damage.
The set moves I'm using aren't the best but twave can neutralize most dragon dancers and play rough is stab. The next two slots can be whatever you want really to be destroyed rock slide can help with birds, fire punch and eq hit common steel switch ins hard, and superfang can hurt bulkier switch ins. It also has access to heal bell for team support although it isn't the most reliable. Taunt and counter can be used to hit boosters hard. Taunt should get a mention since ferro often switches into this thing and gyro ball does nothing.
Granbull isn't without it flaws though it has horrible special defence, horrible speed and no reliable recovery. Therefore wish support is pretty mandatory so alo or chansey is a must. A second intimidate user also helps Granbull out as he can now sponge hits better and be annoying spdef gyara and him do pretty well together and take on most physical threats except bd azu, mega Ttar, and mega pinsir
Mega Hera
-1 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 115-140 (29.9 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 255-305 (66.4 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 204-242 (65.5 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
alittle iffy but para and playrough can cripple it pretty well.
Mega Medicham
-1 252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 138-163 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- 92.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 260-308 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Answers mega Cham pretty well
Mega gyara
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 142-168 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 211-250 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 212-252 (63.8 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Granbull can switch into a plus one gyarados and take care of it with twave and play rough.
Mega Pinsir
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 144-169 (37.5 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Granbull can take a hit and para it but needs an elemental punch or rock slide do anything back.
Mega Mawile
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 160-190 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 140-166 (46 - 54.6%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO
This thing shouldn't be your mega mawile answer as it is slower and gets destroyed with a little prior damage but can check decently.
Mega Charizard-X
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 247-292 (64.3 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 154-182 (51.6 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You can check him fairly well with EQ and twave still pretty shaky tho needs team support
Mega Ttar
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 169-199 (44 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 162-192 (47.3 - 56.1%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO
This is really shaky after rocks and can cripple it for something else to handle.
If you want the other calcs I can add more it's just these are pretty powerful hitters
-1 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 115-140 (29.9 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 255-305 (66.4 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 204-242 (65.5 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
alittle iffy but para and playrough can cripple it pretty well.
Mega Medicham
-1 252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 138-163 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- 92.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 260-308 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Answers mega Cham pretty well
Mega gyara
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 142-168 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 211-250 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 212-252 (63.8 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Granbull can switch into a plus one gyarados and take care of it with twave and play rough.
Mega Pinsir
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 144-169 (37.5 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Granbull can take a hit and para it but needs an elemental punch or rock slide do anything back.
Mega Mawile
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 160-190 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 140-166 (46 - 54.6%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO
This thing shouldn't be your mega mawile answer as it is slower and gets destroyed with a little prior damage but can check decently.
Mega Charizard-X
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 247-292 (64.3 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 154-182 (51.6 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You can check him fairly well with EQ and twave still pretty shaky tho needs team support
Mega Ttar
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 169-199 (44 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 162-192 (47.3 - 56.1%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO
This is really shaky after rocks and can cripple it for something else to handle.
If you want the other calcs I can add more it's just these are pretty powerful hitters
Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 184 Def / 76 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect
- Foul Play
Another poke that was great before the aegi ban and still has a very good niche in the OU meta is physically defensive umbreon why physically defensive umbreon and not specially defensive? It's access to STAB foul play and sufficient physical bulk allow it to check a large portion of the meta. The Evs I used were to guarantee the 3hko from pinsir before rocks as protect and wish can negate rocks damage this probably isn't important now that pinsir will be running close combat but it is still a pretty good bench mark to hit. This spread also allows umbreon to check CC pinsir still as he OHKOs after the defense drops. This spread also allows umbreon to take bisharp, greninja, non LO excadrill, non outrage kyub, mamoswine, rotom-w, and non focus blast thundy. Another cool thing about umbreon is he beats common stall breakers such as mew, and gengar thanks to his dark typing and synchronize. His main niche in ou is being a defensive dark type with reliable recovery something only mandibuzz shares. Umbreon also is one of the few physically bulky clerics out there which is useful with obscene physical attacker in the meta. Being a dark type gives him great resistance to two common attack types in the meta ghost, and dark. This pretty good since most stall team are going to need to fit mega hera, and cham counters on to their teams which are often ghost or psychic and need something to switch into ghost and dark attacks for them which umbreon can do fairly easily.
.
Non LO Drill
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Umbreon: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- 19% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 265-313 (73.2 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With a little prior damage drill is ohkoed by foul play
Kyurem-B
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Umbreon: 136-161 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- 63.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 190-225 (48.5 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
This thing can take down one of the scariest wallbreakers in OU as long as it doesnt have outrage which is pretty good tbh
Greninja
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Umbreon: 149-177 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 123-145 (43 - 50.6%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
Gren can't do much to umbro and umbro can put dents into gren after he changes type
Non LO Drill
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Umbreon: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- 19% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 265-313 (73.2 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With a little prior damage drill is ohkoed by foul play
Kyurem-B
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Umbreon: 136-161 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- 63.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 190-225 (48.5 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
This thing can take down one of the scariest wallbreakers in OU as long as it doesnt have outrage which is pretty good tbh
Greninja
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Umbreon: 149-177 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 123-145 (43 - 50.6%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
Gren can't do much to umbro and umbro can put dents into gren after he changes type
Jirachi and bronzong are both great mega garde counters. currently I am using jirachi here is my set.
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Atk / 80 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Wish
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
This spread allows you to outspeed adamant mega hera and ohko mega garde. I find having a little more oomph in your iron head is nice in general. Jirachi also can deal with calm mind fable fairly easily and provide a ton of team support thanks to wish and stall break with its annoying paraflinch combo. I know I am evil but since aegi is gone wynaut? Jirachi has an amazing movepool and change what its running to help your team thanks to its godly coverage. I find raichi is one of the best garde counters out there and can get rocks up througout the game as well as spread status quite easily. Not much else to say here jirachi is an annoying but good pokemon to have on stall. You can change what speed tier you want but outspeeding hera is great for a stall poke. I don't have calcs for this one as he can take on what he needs to such as the latiis clef and garde fairly easily thanks to his typing resisting most of their hits.
I use all three on a current stall build. Here is the team if you wanna give it a whirl.
Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Earthquake
- Thunder Wave
- Roar
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Waterfall
- Dragon Tail
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Counter
- Roost
- Defog
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Atk / 80 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Wish
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 184 Def / 76 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect
- Foul Play
Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 248 HP / 160 Def / 100 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: null Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Earthquake
- Thunder Wave
- Roar
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Waterfall
- Dragon Tail
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Counter
- Roost
- Defog
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Atk / 80 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Wish
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 184 Def / 76 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect
- Foul Play
Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 248 HP / 160 Def / 100 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: null Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
The speed on Venu is to outspeed rotom-w and bd azu which helps more often than an extra bit of bulk in my opinion.
So what do you guys think about full stall vs semi stall e.g. stall w/ 1 or 2 offensive pokemons
Semi stall also has it's own issues as it takes certain mons to properly take care of other obscene wallbreakers. For example you are going to need something to take care of Landorus, kyub, mawile, zards, Cham, garde, thundy, pinsir, and at least something to check mega Hera. The issue with semi stall is you will be open to holes if you run a couple offensive mons as the amount of reliable wallbreakers is scary at the moment and needs to be checked/countered by any serious stall team. Which is difficult in the current meta and hopefully after the meta settles we can figure out what the most viable wallbreakers are and build stall from there.
Last edited:
Yeah and in the case if many of those mons it's not possible to defensively check them, hence the entire point of offensive presence
Ya but by running an offensive mon you are now hard pressed for some team space was all I was getting at and Hera can be dealt with by faster stall mons such as the pixies as well as some other obscure stuff like duoblade, Granbull and weezing. I'm not saying semi stall is bad it just has to be built a little differently than standard stall to account for the less bulky pokes and a safe way of getting the offensive pokes in such as volturn or built to allow for a few sacs in the mid to lategame to allow for these offensive pokes to get a free switch-in.
Last edited:
Obscure stuff is great if it does it's job...
Full stall can still work pretty well. Doublade takes care of +2 Mega Hera's and most other pesky wall breakers. The experimental team in this replay was used to a good amount of success to get to the 1700's: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-149236317
Quite a few uncommon mons on the team. Celebi is a really good Keldeo counter and I really like the fact that it has Heal Bell, as it pretty much removes Chanseys 4MSS problem. Mandibuzz I was experimenting with to see how it fared in terms of usefulness now that Aegi is gone, and I found it's still one of the best Defoggers and it's a great way to hit Keldeo and other common switch-ins with a Toxic and put it on a timer. Good general purpose wall as well. Doublade was the glue that bound the team together and made sure I wouldn't lose to the standard wall breakers. Char-Y is the Mawile counter, checks a ton of stuff and gives the team a much appreciated offensive powerhouse at the same time.
Semi stall is very good, but I personally don't usually like the added pressure it puts on your walls.
Quite a few uncommon mons on the team. Celebi is a really good Keldeo counter and I really like the fact that it has Heal Bell, as it pretty much removes Chanseys 4MSS problem. Mandibuzz I was experimenting with to see how it fared in terms of usefulness now that Aegi is gone, and I found it's still one of the best Defoggers and it's a great way to hit Keldeo and other common switch-ins with a Toxic and put it on a timer. Good general purpose wall as well. Doublade was the glue that bound the team together and made sure I wouldn't lose to the standard wall breakers. Char-Y is the Mawile counter, checks a ton of stuff and gives the team a much appreciated offensive powerhouse at the same time.
Semi stall is very good, but I personally don't usually like the added pressure it puts on your walls.
on semi stall vs stall
My preferred way of getting offensive presence on my stall teams is through pokemon like suicune who can set up a sweep if there's something on the opponent team I can't handle, while still doubling as a great bulky water type capable of taking on thing like excadrill and heatran easily. Clefable can also sweep, while the zard forms just hit hard enough without boosts to pressure the opponent, I almost always have one of those pokemon on my stall teams to get me through those sticky situations where I can't afford to play passively
My preferred way of getting offensive presence on my stall teams is through pokemon like suicune who can set up a sweep if there's something on the opponent team I can't handle, while still doubling as a great bulky water type capable of taking on thing like excadrill and heatran easily. Clefable can also sweep, while the zard forms just hit hard enough without boosts to pressure the opponent, I almost always have one of those pokemon on my stall teams to get me through those sticky situations where I can't afford to play passively
Stall (full stall at least) was hurt pretty badly by the Aegislash ban, in addition to dealing with the pokemon that gave Stall a headache in the first place like Landorus-I and Mega-Mawile, there are more Mega-Heracross, more Mega-Garedvoir as well as more Mega-Medicham all that are huge threats to stall. Coverage can be used now to hit Skarmory instead of Aegislash like Close Combat Pinsir. I think Stall might be really tough to pull off right now without some sort of offensive pressure if not completely impossible, it's hard to play to survive when there are so many scary powerful wallbreakers and sweepers that can eat through the best walls like nothing.
Honestly it comes down to how exactly you define semi stall. I've always defined it as a full stall core with an offensive mon that sweeps onces its counters are taken out. In that case, the Aegi ban puts a lot of pressure on your walls to get the job done in time, because of all the new wallbreakers.
That said, the Aegi ban has kind of mandated that full stall run some kind of check to certain threats. You simply can't counter everything now; I find that this philosophy will help you win games, but preparation won't win you the game alone. The pressure stall teams currently face is pretty high, and I think that we all need to rally in the suspect threads to convince some of the more "offensive-minded" players how broken the meta truly is.
That said, the Aegi ban has kind of mandated that full stall run some kind of check to certain threats. You simply can't counter everything now; I find that this philosophy will help you win games, but preparation won't win you the game alone. The pressure stall teams currently face is pretty high, and I think that we all need to rally in the suspect threads to convince some of the more "offensive-minded" players how broken the meta truly is.
Once Mawile goes (which it probably will, because a lot offense players hate facing it too) that eases a lot of pressure for stall as it's literally the only reason you need to run a bulky fire type right now. You wont need an Arcanine/Char-Y/Moltress/Heatran at all after the ban, and not needing a usually Stealth Rock weak fire type requiring fairly tight anti-hazard or other support frees up a team slot to handle the rest of the meta better.
Aegi getting banned actually helped stall imo, since it was also a bit of a nuisance for stall, having good resistances and being able to pivot into most of your attacks. It also, as has been pointed out before, made the old threats which adapted to Aegi much easier to counter, as Doublade is now amazing at doing that, which you can take advantage of. In my opinion, these suspects are all making stall much easier to build. Losing the Deo's was huge for us, Aegi was big too, and Mawile will be a cherry on top.
Aegi getting banned actually helped stall imo, since it was also a bit of a nuisance for stall, having good resistances and being able to pivot into most of your attacks. It also, as has been pointed out before, made the old threats which adapted to Aegi much easier to counter, as Doublade is now amazing at doing that, which you can take advantage of. In my opinion, these suspects are all making stall much easier to build. Losing the Deo's was huge for us, Aegi was big too, and Mawile will be a cherry on top.
jpw234
Catastrophic Event Specialist
I'm gonna copy over a post I made on the Aerodactyl thread about how much I'm enjoying using Mega-Aerodactyl on my stall team atm:
So, stall has a rough time choosing a mega and some such teams even go without one. The defensive options are basically Mega-Venu, Mega-Scizor, Mega-Toise and Mega-Aggron, with most of the other megas being chosen occasionally to proven offensive presence but really not serving as stall Pokemon. Another thing stall has trouble with is BirdSpam (Mega-Pinsir backed up by Talonflame) and its cousin PinsirZone (using Magnezone to trap Skarm for Pinsir). Skarm is the most popular counter for Mega-Pinsir on stall, so PinsirZone in particular is a big issue. Additionally, stall players like myself can be dissatisfied with Skarm's lack of offensive presence and general predictability serving as a constraint on teambuilding.
Mega-Aero comes to the rescue as a pokemon that does very well against BirdSpam without being vulnerable to trapping from Magnezone, and also serves as a built-in source of offensive pressure against the scary HO teams by outspeeding most all of their non-scarfed mons and threatening them with powerful EdgeQuake attacks. Here's a set I'm currently testing:
Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 200 Atk / 88 Def / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Roost
- Stone Edge / Rock Slide
- Ice Fang / Earthquake
- Aerial Ace / Taunt / Defog / Stealth Rock
220 Speed EVs outspeed +1 Adamant Dragonite after Mega-Evolving (which is just above Greninja) and outspeed max speed 110s (Latis and Gengar) before Mega-Evolving.
Mega-Aerodactyl is actually a counter (in the correct sense of the term) to Mega-Pinsir, and with a very small defense investment can counter Pinsir even with SR up:
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 128-151 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 51-60 (16.9 - 19.9%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
Return + Quick Attack does less than 75% (so you counter with SR up), and if you come in on an SD you're fine since you outspeed and OHKO with any rock move (even Smack Down). Mega-Aero also fares decently well against Talonflame, M-Pinsir's partner in crime:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 122-144 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 122-144 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This is a counter if SR is down. If SR is up it can't switch into BB (because damn Gale Wings), but can switch into Flare Blitz as you outspeed and can either Roost off damage waiting for it to switch or kill itself from recoil, or just smack it with your rock STAB.
Aero doesn't really want to tank too many other attacks, but its bulk is reasonable so it can switch in on predicted resisted hits. When it does get in, it goes to town, especially against HO. The above set is massively threatening to pokemon like Landorus, non-scarf Keldeo, Latis with any prior damage, beats all Mega-Venu sets, etc. It isn't a wallbreaker by any means, but against a weakened offensive team it is not too difficult to clean up with. It can also dent most offensive pokemon pretty hard earlier in the game, and if they can't regenerate their health, that makes your job as a stall player much easier.
I think this is the best 4 moves to roll with. Roost and a Rock STAB are pretty much mandatory. The choice is yours between Stone Edge and Rock Slide. Rock Slide KOes the pokemon you absolutely need to KO (that's the birds) with a higher hit rate, but Stone Edge is noticeably stronger when you're hitting random other offensive pokemon. You can choose between Ice Fang and Earthquake for your next attack. Earthquake hits Mawile (but you lose to +2 Sucker Punch anyway), Heatran (but Stone Edge 2HKOs after SR), and Excadrill (but you lose if sand is up), while Ice Fang lets you OHKO Garchomp, counter Landorus, and beat Gliscor. You'll inevitably miss whichever one you don't pick, but I'm rolling with Ice Fang at the moment because it beats the threats that are more relevant for my team. The last slot is where the most choice comes in. Aerial Ace benefits from Tough Claws and so is fairly strong, giving you a way to OHKO Keldeo, Heracross, Medicham and Breloom. Given that these are all problem Pokemon for stall, having a sure-fire method of dealing with them is a fairly attractive option. However, there are others available to you, which I've listed in order of what I believe to be viable. Taunt turns Aero into a pseudo-stallbreaker, still dealing with the relevant threats, but now beating Chansey, Skarm (although Lefties + SE Misses makes this not something to rely on), Mew, defensive Mega-Venu, and other stall Pokemon. If you pick Taunt, you need Earthquake in the previous slot for EdgeQuake coverage. I think Taunt is a very real choice, however, there are better stallbreakers (for example, Aero isn't beating things like Quag, Gliscor, etc). Less viable is Defog, which is admittedly a very useful move. However, I think putting M-Aero as your defogger is stretching him quite thin as he isn't bulky enough to Defog often. Lastly is SR - while Aerodactyl is a decent suicide SR lead for HO with Taunt and Stealth Rock, I think there are much better things for him to be doing on stall, and you're almost certain to have a spot for it elsewhere in your lineup.
Overall I've been quite happy with Mega-Aerodactyl in my (admittedly limited) testing of him on stall. While he struggles to make a case for himself above other, more threatening Mega-Evolutions on offensive teams, stall doesn't have too many Megas to choose from and Mega-Aerodactyl fills a couple of very useful (and quite difficult to fill) roles. You guys should try him out if you get the chance.
So, stall has a rough time choosing a mega and some such teams even go without one. The defensive options are basically Mega-Venu, Mega-Scizor, Mega-Toise and Mega-Aggron, with most of the other megas being chosen occasionally to proven offensive presence but really not serving as stall Pokemon. Another thing stall has trouble with is BirdSpam (Mega-Pinsir backed up by Talonflame) and its cousin PinsirZone (using Magnezone to trap Skarm for Pinsir). Skarm is the most popular counter for Mega-Pinsir on stall, so PinsirZone in particular is a big issue. Additionally, stall players like myself can be dissatisfied with Skarm's lack of offensive presence and general predictability serving as a constraint on teambuilding.
Mega-Aero comes to the rescue as a pokemon that does very well against BirdSpam without being vulnerable to trapping from Magnezone, and also serves as a built-in source of offensive pressure against the scary HO teams by outspeeding most all of their non-scarfed mons and threatening them with powerful EdgeQuake attacks. Here's a set I'm currently testing:
Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 200 Atk / 88 Def / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Roost
- Stone Edge / Rock Slide
- Ice Fang / Earthquake
- Aerial Ace / Taunt / Defog / Stealth Rock
220 Speed EVs outspeed +1 Adamant Dragonite after Mega-Evolving (which is just above Greninja) and outspeed max speed 110s (Latis and Gengar) before Mega-Evolving.
Mega-Aerodactyl is actually a counter (in the correct sense of the term) to Mega-Pinsir, and with a very small defense investment can counter Pinsir even with SR up:
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 128-151 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 51-60 (16.9 - 19.9%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
Return + Quick Attack does less than 75% (so you counter with SR up), and if you come in on an SD you're fine since you outspeed and OHKO with any rock move (even Smack Down). Mega-Aero also fares decently well against Talonflame, M-Pinsir's partner in crime:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 122-144 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 122-144 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This is a counter if SR is down. If SR is up it can't switch into BB (because damn Gale Wings), but can switch into Flare Blitz as you outspeed and can either Roost off damage waiting for it to switch or kill itself from recoil, or just smack it with your rock STAB.
Aero doesn't really want to tank too many other attacks, but its bulk is reasonable so it can switch in on predicted resisted hits. When it does get in, it goes to town, especially against HO. The above set is massively threatening to pokemon like Landorus, non-scarf Keldeo, Latis with any prior damage, beats all Mega-Venu sets, etc. It isn't a wallbreaker by any means, but against a weakened offensive team it is not too difficult to clean up with. It can also dent most offensive pokemon pretty hard earlier in the game, and if they can't regenerate their health, that makes your job as a stall player much easier.
I think this is the best 4 moves to roll with. Roost and a Rock STAB are pretty much mandatory. The choice is yours between Stone Edge and Rock Slide. Rock Slide KOes the pokemon you absolutely need to KO (that's the birds) with a higher hit rate, but Stone Edge is noticeably stronger when you're hitting random other offensive pokemon. You can choose between Ice Fang and Earthquake for your next attack. Earthquake hits Mawile (but you lose to +2 Sucker Punch anyway), Heatran (but Stone Edge 2HKOs after SR), and Excadrill (but you lose if sand is up), while Ice Fang lets you OHKO Garchomp, counter Landorus, and beat Gliscor. You'll inevitably miss whichever one you don't pick, but I'm rolling with Ice Fang at the moment because it beats the threats that are more relevant for my team. The last slot is where the most choice comes in. Aerial Ace benefits from Tough Claws and so is fairly strong, giving you a way to OHKO Keldeo, Heracross, Medicham and Breloom. Given that these are all problem Pokemon for stall, having a sure-fire method of dealing with them is a fairly attractive option. However, there are others available to you, which I've listed in order of what I believe to be viable. Taunt turns Aero into a pseudo-stallbreaker, still dealing with the relevant threats, but now beating Chansey, Skarm (although Lefties + SE Misses makes this not something to rely on), Mew, defensive Mega-Venu, and other stall Pokemon. If you pick Taunt, you need Earthquake in the previous slot for EdgeQuake coverage. I think Taunt is a very real choice, however, there are better stallbreakers (for example, Aero isn't beating things like Quag, Gliscor, etc). Less viable is Defog, which is admittedly a very useful move. However, I think putting M-Aero as your defogger is stretching him quite thin as he isn't bulky enough to Defog often. Lastly is SR - while Aerodactyl is a decent suicide SR lead for HO with Taunt and Stealth Rock, I think there are much better things for him to be doing on stall, and you're almost certain to have a spot for it elsewhere in your lineup.
Overall I've been quite happy with Mega-Aerodactyl in my (admittedly limited) testing of him on stall. While he struggles to make a case for himself above other, more threatening Mega-Evolutions on offensive teams, stall doesn't have too many Megas to choose from and Mega-Aerodactyl fills a couple of very useful (and quite difficult to fill) roles. You guys should try him out if you get the chance.
I dunno as as Mawile goes other megas like ZardX, Gard, Pinsir, Medicham, scizor, ttar gyarados, heracross get more common. Doublade only covers a few of them. Granted rest of your team should cover the rest, but they can only do so much
With those threats though, your counters aren't weak to rocks and standard stallers can handle them for the most part. Quag handles Mega T-Tar and Zard X (except ones with Outrage, but you can play around that by switching into your steel type and dishing out rocky helmet + counter damage), Pinsir and Scizor basically share the same counters (Skarm, Zapdos, Mega Aero and Mandibuzz), so a simple core of Doublade + Quag + Skarm/Zapdos/w.e. + Chansey handles pretty much every mega threat (and much more) that the meta can throw at you and still gives you 2 slots to muck around with.
With CC Pinsir can get through skarm now and Aero and Mandi are pretty easily broken. Zapdos still good.
But that does seem like good stall team.
Quag+Doublade+Mega Pinsir Counter+Chansey+Keldeo counter+Landorous Counter
How does defensive volcarona do against MMawile?
It's 3hko'd by Sucker Punch (High roll does 48.9%), Play Rough (41.1%), and Focus Punch (41.7), and 4hko'd by the rest. The issue is, it can't switch on on any attacking move w/ rocks up.
It's 3hko'd by Sucker Punch (High roll does 48.9%), Play Rough (41.1%), and Focus Punch (41.7), and 4hko'd by the rest. The issue is, it can't switch on on any attacking move w/ rocks up.
The wisp options?
In my opinion , I think Gliscor and Sableye are best installers unless theirs.more.
Mega Gardevoir
- Status