1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Starmie (Rain Dance Spinner) [QC 3/3] (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Harsha, Apr 11, 2012.

  1. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,225
    Taken over from MaestroXXVI http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3460219

    [SET]
    name: Rain Dance Spinner
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Rapid Spin
    move 3: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 4: Thunder / Thunder Wave
    item: Life Orb / Damp Rock
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Considering the popularity of Politoed thanks to its top-notch ability, Drizzle, the use of Rain Dance on Starmie may require heavy explanation. Needless to say, Politoed is the best candidate for a rain inducer because Drizzle summons endless rain, while Starmie can only offer 5 or 8 turns of rain with Rain Dance. However, setting up rain for teammates to abuse is not always the main objective that this Starmie tries to accomplish; instead, Starmie can also be paired with Politoed to aid it in winning weather wars. Whether one intends to support a team of rain abusers or back up Politoed, Starmie is generally considered the best at what it does: using Rapid Spin while retaining an offensive presence.</p>

    <p>Hydro Pump is insanely powerful, especially in the rain. Surf offers reliability, but Hydro Pump's significantly higher Base Power is much more useful than the 100% accuracy of Surf. With Thunder as a second attacking move, Starmie nets an easy 2HKO on Jellicent, the most common spinblocker, in the rain. Of course, one must ensure that rain is present before using Thunder, but Starmie generally has an easy time handling spinblockers. If one is unconcerned about running into problematic Ghost-types and would rather have Starmie provide additional support in the form of spreading paralysis, Thunder Wave is also an option as it gives teammates an easier setup. However, Thunder is usually the preferred option because of its power and great 30% chance of paralysis.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Given how Starmie is naturally offensive, the EVs that should be used are pretty straightforward. Maximizing Special Attack guarantees OHKOs and 2HKOs on most walls, even those that are specially defensive, and it also ensures that all common spinblockers are 2HKOed at worst. To show how insanely powerful Hydro Pump is with maximum Special Attack and assuming Life Orb and rain boosts, here are some damage calculations:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 252/196+ Tyranitar 119.55% - 140.35%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 252/252+ Ninetales 130.29% - 153.43%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 248/0 Scizor 111.37% - 131.2%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 0/0 Rotom-W 61.98% - 73.14%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 4/0 Latios 48.34% - 56.95%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 0/4 Dragonite 49.23% - 57.59%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 252/252+ Jirachi 56.44% - 66.34%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 236/212+ Breloom 50.94% - 60%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Though the additional power from a Modest nature might seem tempting, a Timid nature is required, as it allows Starmie to outspeed and check many offensive threats such as Terrakion, Latios, Mienshao, and Salamence. Needless to say, Natural Cure is the ability of choice, given that all of Starmie's other abilities are useless. The choice of item depends upon the team that Starmie is on. While a Life Orb is recommended to add power to Starmie's attacks, losing 10% of its health per use of Rapid Spin is extremely unfavorable considering all the durable entry hazard users in the metagame. Thus, another option for Starmie is Damp Rock; it not only causes no recoil damage, but it also extends the duration of rain from five to eight turns. Damp Rock is generally the best option on teams that rely on Rain Dance to provide rain support because they do not run Politoed. While Thunder is regarded as the best option in Starmie's final moveslot, Ice Beam and Psychic are also possibilities because Ice Beam does well against the numerous Dragon-types that plague OU, while Psychic hits Virizion and Breloom much harder.</p>

    <p>The best partners for this set are those that can capitalize on Rain Dance. Swift Swim abusers, such as Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo, work well when paired with Starmie, though one cannot use them if Politoed is on the same team. Speaking of Politoed, Starmie works well as a backup rain inducer, and it can forgo its Damp Rock with a permanent rain inducer within the ranks of its teammates. Pokemon that are able to make good use of Focus Sash work extremely well with Starmie, as they can switch in on a field that lacks entry hazards and set up freely. Additionally, Starmie can rid the field of sandstorm that can negate the effect of Focus Sash. Cloyster emerges as the best example of a Focus Sash user that works well with Starmie, as its Water-type STAB is boosted by the rain, and it is weak to Stealth Rock that Starmie can rid the field of. While this set plays much differently than all of Starmie's other sets, the same checks and counters apply to it&mdash;Blissey, Chansey, Gastrodon, and Ferrothorn will all wall the daylight out of Starmie. Additionally, Choice Scarf users can come in easily and revenge kill Starmie, so one should be wary when a Landorus or Rotom-W is sent out against Starmie, as it may spell impending doom for our little sea star.</p>

    Show Hide
    Why this deserves to be on-site

    • http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/starmie --> ctrl-f --> "rain dance" --> phrase not found
    • Starmie's great speed and movepool makes it an awesome support mon for weatherless offensive teams, much the same as Deoxys; the on-site sets don't capitalize on this as much as they could.
    • Could make a good secondary rain inducer for Drizzle teams.
    • Comes in late-game to clear a path for Cloyster/Dnite/Volc, etc. by washing away sand, sun (aka +2 spe revenge killers), hail and hazards
    • Speed and resistance to common priority means almost any free turn is a complete clearing of the field.
    • Life Orb + Rain + Thunder means easy 2HKOs on Jellicent, your most common switch-in when your opponent wants to spinblock.
    • http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3454642

    Additional comments

    • Standard EV spread, Timid of course because speed is always Starmie's highest priority, really no point in any alternate EV spreads
    • Surf vs. Hydro Pump is the standard accuracy/power conundrum; obligatory mention of Scald
    • Thunder is for smacking bulky waters around, but you can also use Thunder Wave to cripple fast switchins
    • Life Orb because this set's priority is not in sticking around, its in clearing a path and providing a free switch-in (and smacking stuff around if prudent)
    • Type-resist berries are options, but you really want LO's power (see calcs below)
    • Change the last two moves according to your needs; Starmie can run TWave or Recover on a mono-attacking set, or Ice Beam (BoltBeam) or Psychic (dual STAB) for alternate coverage

    Teammates & Counters

    • Not much can switch in if rain is up, and Starmie's speed often means it'll cleave hp off even water-resists; however, some pokes still wall it even with Hydro Pump and Thunder.
    • Blissey, Chansey, Celebi, Gastrodon, and Ferrothorn are your safest bets if you want to wall; none are 2HKO'd or mind a TWave. On the other hand, none are blocking Rain Dance or Rapid Spin (Starmie can't touch Gastro, and Ferro pseudo-blocks)
    • Bulkier grass types can tank a hit and OHKO back
    • Virizion (giga drain), Latias and bulky Nite can recover off damage, but greatly fear TWave
    • Jolteon and Shadow Ball Zam outspeed and OHKO if they don't switch in on a rain-boosted Surf/Hydro Pump
    • Scarfed pokes, especially physically-based ones, usually don't have trouble revenging Starmie
    • Don't ask what your teammates can do for Starmie, ask what it can do for them; any set-up sweeper will appreciate the free turn that comes with Starmie getting revenged by a scarfer, as well as the lack of passive damage switching in and during play (focus sash is cool again!)
    • Sash Cloyster stands out as the ideal partner: weak to SR, an awesome setup move that kills all its special bulk (and therefore wont tank a special hit without a sash), and can even get a power boost out of rain

    Calcs (Don't underestimate Rain + LO):

    Hydro Pump:
    Tyranitar (OU Specially Defensive [Sand Stream]): 50.49 - 59.9% (2HKO after SR) (clean OHKO in rain)
    Ninetales (OU Specially Defensive [Drought]): 48.57 - 58.28% (2HKO after SR) (clean OHKO in rain)
    Scizor (OU Choice Band): 111.37 - 131.19% (clean OHKO) (Surf OHKOs after SR)
    Rotom-W (OU Defensive): 55.76 - 65.79% (clean 2HKO)
    Jirachi (OU Specially Defensive): 57.42 - 67.82% (clean 2HKO) (surf has a good chance of 2HKO)
    Breloom (OU Bulk Up): 50.93 - 60% (good chance of 2HKO after SR and Poison Heal)
    Dragonite (OU Offensive Dragon Dance): 48.91 - 57.58% (2HKO after SR)
    Latios (OU Choice): 48.34 - 56.95% (2HKO after SR)
    Thunder:
    Jellicent (OU Utility Counter): 67.49 - 79.9% (clean 2HKO)
    Tentacruel (OU Toxic Spikes): 67.03 - 79.12% (clean 2HKO)
    Rotom-W (OU Choice): 55.37 - 65.28% (clean 2HKO)
    Politoed (OU Choice Specs): 87.85 - 104.04% (OHKO after SR)​
  2. MaestroXXVI

    MaestroXXVI

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2011
    Messages:
    202
    My apologies to C&C for dragging my heels on this. I know Harsha will do a great job, tho :)
  3. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,225
    Thanks for the kind words, MaestroXXVI :)

    Anyways, this is now written up n_n
  4. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz POTATO
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,452
    placeholder!! (open)
    [​IMG]


    ;_; we need a new diff app~~~~~~~~

    copypasta (open)
    [SET]
    name: Rain Dance Spinner
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Rapid Spin
    move 3: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 4: Thunder / Thunder Wave
    item: Life Orb / Damp Rock
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Considering the popularity of Politoed thanks to its top-notch ability, Drizzle, the use of Rain Dance on Starmie may require heavy explanation. Needless to say, Politoed is the best candidate for a rain inducer because Drizzle summons endless rain, while Starmie can only offer 5 or 8 turns of rain with Rain Dance. However, setting up rain for teammates to abuse is not always the main objective that this Starmie tries to accomplish; instead, Starmie can also be paired with Politoed to aid it in winning weather wars. Whether one intends to support a team of rain abusers or back up Politoed, Starmie is generally considered the best at what it does: using Rapid Spin while retaining an offensive presence.</p>

    <p>Hydro Pump is insanely powerful, especially in the rain. Surf offers reliability, but Hydro Pump's significantly higher Base Power is much more useful than the 100% accuracy. With Thunder as a second attacking move, Starmie nets an easy 2HKO on Jellicent, the most common spinblocker, in the rain. Of course, one must ensure that rain is present before using Thunder, but Starmie generally has an easy time handling spinblockers. If one is unconcerned about running into problematic Ghost-types and would rather Starmie provide additional support in the form of spreading paralysis, Thunder Wave is also an option as it gives teammates an easier setup. However, Thunder is usually the preferred option because of its power and great 30% chance of paralysis.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Given how offensive Starmie is naturally, the EVs that should be used are pretty straightforward. Maximizing Special Attack guarantees OHKOs and 2HKOs on most walls, even those that are specially defensive, and it also ensures that all common spinblockers are 2HKOed at worst. To show how insanely powerful Hydro Pump is with maximum Special Attack and assuming Life Orb and rain boosts, here are some damage calculations:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 252/196+ Tyranitar 119.55% - 140.35%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 252/252+ Ninetales 130.29% - 153.43%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 248/0 Scizor 111.37% - 131.2%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 0/0 Rotom-W 61.98% - 73.14%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 4/0 Latios 48.34% - 56.95%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 0/4 Dragonite 49.23% - 57.59%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 252/252+ Jirachi 56.44% - 66.34%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 236/212+ Breloom 50.94% - 60%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>A Timid nature is required, though the additional power from a Modest nature might seem tempting, because Timid allows Starmie to outspeed and check many offensive threats such as Terrakion, Latios, Mienshao, and Salamence. Needless to say, Natural Cure is the ability of choice, given that all of Starmie's other abilities are useless. The choice of item depends upon the team that Starmie is on. While a Life Orb is recommended to add power to all of Starmie's attacks, losing 10% of its health per use of Rapid Spin is extremely unfavorable, considering all the durable entry hazard users in the metagame. Thus, another option for Starmie is Damp Rock; it not only causes no recoil damage, but it also extends the duration of rain from five to eight turns. Damp Rock is generally the best option on teams that rely on Rain Dance to provide rain support because they do not run Politoed. While Thunder is regarded as the best option in Starmie's final moveslot, Ice Beam and Psychic are also possibilities because Ice Beam does well against the numerous Dragon-types that plague OU while Psychic hits Virizion and Breloom much harder.</p>

    <p>The best partners for this set are those that can capitalize on Rain Dance. Swift Swim abusers, such as Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo, work well when paired with Starmie, though one cannot use them if Politoed is on the same team. Speaking of Politoed, Starmie works well as a backup rain inducer, and it can forgo its Damp Rock with a permanent rain inducer within the ranks of its teammates. Pokemon that are able to make good use of Focus Sashes work extremely well with Starmie, as they can switch in on a field that lacks entry hazards and set up freely. Cloyster emerges as the best example, as its Water-type STAB is boosted by the rain, and it is weak to Stealth Rock that Starmie can rid the field of. While this set plays much differently than all of Starmie's other sets, the same checks and counters apply to it&mdash;Blissey, Chansey, Gastrodon, and Ferrothorn will all wall the daylight out of Starmie. Additionally, Choice Scarf users can come in easily and revenge kill Starmie, so one should be wary when a Landorus or Rotom-W is sent out against Starmie, as it may spell impending doom for our little sea star.</p>


    explained most of my changes via irc anyway! n_n

    [​IMG]
    GP Approved 1/2
  5. Knight of Cydonia

    Knight of Cydonia dance commander
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2011
    Messages:
    267
    In the last section you never said that getting rid of sandstorm is great for focus sash users aswell as getting rid of entry hazards which you mentioned.
  6. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,065
    I agree, more needs to be added about the anti-weather capabilities this set provides especially for weatherless HO teams who after getting rid of Abamasnow/TTar/Ninetales can severely cripple the foe's weather based team. Also as said this set makes focus sash viable again.

    Other than that great intro.
  7. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,478
    Amateur GP Check

    Show Hide
    [SET]
    name: Rain Dance Spinner
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Rapid Spin
    move 3: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 4: Thunder / Thunder Wave
    item: Life Orb / Damp Rock
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Considering the popularity of Politoed thanks to its top-notch ability, Drizzle, the use of Rain Dance on Starmie may require heavy explanation. Needless to say, Politoed is the best candidate for a rain inducer because Drizzle summons endless rain, while Starmie can only offer 5 or 8 turns of rain with Rain Dance. However, setting up rain for teammates to abuse is not always the main objective that this Starmie tries to accomplish; instead, Starmie can also be paired with Politoed to aid it in winning weather wars. Whether one intends to support a team of rain abusers or back up Politoed, Starmie is generally considered the best at what it does: using Rapid Spin while retaining an offensive presence.</p>

    <p>Hydro Pump is insanely powerful, especially in the rain. Surf offers reliability, but Hydro Pump's significantly higher Base Power is much more useful than the 100% accuracy of Surf. With Thunder as a second attacking move, Starmie nets an easy 2HKO on Jellicent, the most common spinblocker, in the rain. Of course, one must ensure that rain is present before using Thunder, but Starmie generally has an easy time handling spinblockers. If one is unconcerned about running into problematic Ghost-types and would rather have Starmie provide additional support in the form of spreading paralysis, Thunder Wave is also an option as it gives teammates an easier setup. However, Thunder is usually the preferred option because of its power and great 30% chance of paralysis.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Given how offensive Starmie is naturally offensive, the EVs that should be used are pretty straightforward. Maximizing Special Attack guarantees OHKOs and 2HKOs on most walls, even those that are specially defensive, and it also ensures that all common spinblockers are 2HKOed at worst. To show how insanely powerful Hydro Pump is with maximum Special Attack and assuming Life Orb and rain boosts, here are some damage calculations:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 252/196+ Tyranitar 119.55% - 140.35%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 252/252+ Ninetales 130.29% - 153.43%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 248/0 Scizor 111.37% - 131.2%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 0/0 Rotom-W 61.98% - 73.14%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 4/0 Latios 48.34% - 56.95%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 0/4 Dragonite 49.23% - 57.59%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 252/252+ Jirachi 56.44% - 66.34%</li>
    <li>Hydro Pump vs. 236/212+ Breloom 50.94% - 60%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>A Timid nature is required, tThough the additional power from a Modest nature might seem tempting, because Timida Timid nature is required, as it allows Starmie to outspeed and check many offensive threats such as Terrakion, Latios, Mienshao, and Salamence. Needless to say, Natural Cure is the ability of choice, given that all of Starmie's other abilities are useless. The choice of item depends upon the team that Starmie is on. While a Life Orb is recommended to add power to all of Starmie's attacks, losing 10% of its health per use of Rapid Spin is extremely unfavorable, considering all the durable entry hazard users in the metagame. Thus, another option for Starmie is Damp Rock; it not only causes no recoil damage, but it also extends the duration of rain from five to eight turns. Damp Rock is generally the best option on teams that rely on Rain Dance to provide rain support because they do not run Politoed. While Thunder is regarded as the best option in Starmie's final moveslot, Ice Beam and Psychic are also possibilities because Ice Beam does well against the numerous Dragon-types that plague OU, while Psychic hits Virizion and Breloom much harder.</p>

    <p>The best partners for this set are those that can capitalize on Rain Dance. Swift Swim abusers, such as Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo, work well when paired with Starmie, though one cannot use them if Politoed is on the same team. Speaking of Politoed, Starmie works well as a backup rain inducer, and it can forgo its Damp Rock with a permanent rain inducer within the ranks of its teammates. Pokemon that are able to make good use of Focus Sashes work extremely well with Starmie, as they can switch in on a field that lacks entry hazards and set up freely. Additionally, Starmie can rid the field of sandstorm that can negate the effects of Focus Sash. Cloyster emerges as the best example of a Focus Sash user that works well with Starmie, as its Water-type STAB is boosted by the rain, and it is weak to Stealth Rock that Starmie can rid the field of. While this set plays much differently than all of Starmie's other sets, the same checks and counters apply to it&mdash;Blissey, Chansey, Gastrodon, and Ferrothorn will all wall the daylight out of Starmie. Additionally, Choice Scarf users can come in easily and revenge kill Starmie, so one should be wary when a Landorus or Rotom-W is sent out against Starmie, as it may spell impending doom for our little sea star.</p>
  8. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,225
    went over this with DC, all the changes were correct

    [​IMG]

    this is now done n_n
  9. Fatecrashers

    Fatecrashers acta est fabula
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2007
    Messages:
    4,994

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)