Pokémon Starmie [Revamp]

[MrAldo]

Approved by AM (Thanks for the opportunity :])

Proof: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/starmie.3492330/page-7#post-5995200

Ok, now to business:

Starmie #121

The gem of the sea is here!

Typing:

Abilities: Natural Cure / Illuminate (no competitive use) / Analytic

Stats: 60 / 75 / 85 / 100 / 85 / 115

Usable moves(STAB in bold):

Rapid Spin
Hydro Pump
Psyshock
Thunderbolt
Grass Knot
Ice Beam
Hidden Power Fire
Scald
Recover
Reflect Type

General Analysis:

Now in ORAS, with greninja getting the boot, threats like Aegislash and Mega Mawile long gone, starmie has the opportunity to rise again! Rocking a fantastic 115 speed and being a pain to spinblock thanks ot its offensive set, great utility moves like reflect type and being very durable thanks to Natural cure, Starmie can easily fit in plenty of team archetypes depending of your needs. Overall, a solid addition to plenty of teams.

Movesets of interest:

Offensive spinner:

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Fire
- Psyshock / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
- Hydro Pump

This set provides an offensive approach on its spinning role. Having a fantastic movepool and analytic, very few things want to switch into Starmie. Rapid Spin is why you would be using starmie if you wanna keep your own hazards up and being a pain to spinblock this variant makes Starmie a great choice for the job. Ice Beam deal with dragons and some grass types, Thunderbolt help you against water types like gyarados and azumarill. Hidden power fire helps with ferrothorn problems if needed. Psyshock is helpful to dealing huge chunks to mega venusaur and potential special walls on a switch, it also helps with fighting types like Keldeo and Conkeldurr. Hydro Pump is a staple, being its more powerful move and hitting like a truck with analytic boost. Other options like Grass Knot to nail pokes like M-Swampert on dealing more damage to M-Gyarados due to the move factoring in weight is a fine choice. Using Recover to have a way of recovering from life orb recoil can work if needed, running Natural Cure as your ability to make a good offensive status absorber can work as well, but the power drop is pretty noticeable on switch-ins.

Reflect Type:

Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 244 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Reflect Type
- Scald
- Recover

This set looks like an oddity but it works really well on balanced and defensive oriented builds. Starmie bulk with HP investment can be pretty decent, taking even some neutral attacks surprisingly well. It also serves as a great status absorber thanks to Natural Cure helping its teammates to avoid pesky status and just having to switch out to heal itself from it. Reflect Type helps Starmie avoid a common problems for Psychic type pokes, getting pursuit trapped. Reflect Type can be a life saver, copying the typing of common pursuit trappers like Bisharp, Tyranitar and Weavile and recover hp or just burn them in the process. The rest of the moves are staples, Scald cause of good STAB and can burn, recover to make Starmie even more durable and rapid spin cause the whole point of this pick for your team is rapid spin. Running a 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe EV spread on this set to at least speed tie against mons like Raikou, Starmie itself and M-Houndoom so you could reflect type on their face makes a fine choice as well.

Good teammates:

By definition, anything that appreciate hazards gone makes a good teammate for Starmie. Mons that are rather weak to Stealth Rock like Talonflame, Victini, Heatran, Charizard, Kyurem-Black, Volcarona, Thundurus, Entei, Mega Pinsir, Dragonite, Mega Houndoom, Weavile and plenty of others would appreciate something to get rid of hazards. Fire types and grass types makes also good teammates, covering Starmie weaknesses and starmie covering their weaknesses as well. M-Sceptile makes a particularly good teammate cause of Lightning Rod, taking advantage of Starmie volt switch weakness

Final words:

Starmie is ready to make a return. Fighting hand on hand for being the best offensive water type in the metagame with a pokemon like keldeo is some impressive feat. They even make amazing partners if needed cause of different roles! All in all, Starmie got the air it needed in this ORAS metagame to make an impact in the metagame once more.

Feel free to discuss any other potential movesets and if starmie will make an impact in the metagame!
​

 

[Alfalfa]

I think people really overlook Starmie when building teams in general. There are just some teams where you cannot afford to lose your hazards from Defog, like teams dependent on Spikes, teammates that are highly dependent on hazards to get past their checks, etc. There are not that many Ghost-types in OU, nor Mega Sableye nor Gengar can switch in on Starmie because they risk getting hit by STAB Hydro Pump from Analytic, all you need is a little prediction just to spin if these Pokemon are present on the opponent's team.

 

[Mulan15262]

Ice Beam should probably be by itself. Ice Beam offers great coverage with Hydro Pump, and then your last moveslot can be Psyshock/Thunderbolt/HP Fire. From my experience, Starmie has pretty bad bulk, so it probably shouldn't use Recover. Also, Leftovers is a more common item for Starmie than Life Orb, so that could be added in.

Natural Cure should also be put as a possible ability so that it can be cured of status. Sleep is very bad for Starmie as your opponent can then switch in a faster pokemon (like the very common Scarf Landorus-Therian) and OHKO. Paralysis is also bad due to the largely lowered speed. Burn and Toxic accumulate extra damage that can add up quickly in addition to Life Orb.

 

[MrAldo]

Updated something really quickly, just noticed the huge blank space at the bottom...

Added more slashes on the offensive spinner moveset. From my experience the analytic moveset is entirely customizable for the needs of your team but you are right, ice beam is some pretty smexy coverage, so thats the reason I added first then the slashes, so it is the preferable option.

Will keep updating the OP with the recommendations, thanks a lot.

 

[Kurona]

Just a little thought I want to get out there in relation to Starmie; while base 110 speed is the new standard because of Gallade, Metagross, Diancie in addition to Lati@s and Gengar, would base 115 speed be a secondary standard to beat when you've got Starmie, Raikou, Azelf, Houndoominite and Absolite in there?

 

[Teeny Victory]

It should be noted in the offensive spread that if you are going to run recover, run dual stab, as being walled by dragon and grass types (if t-bolt) or water types (ice besm) is pretty miserable for offensive starmie in set who's niche is to get rid of hazards and nuke shit with analytic boosted moves, while also having great coverage.
Edit: it should also be noted that if hp fire is chosen max speed is kinda point pointless, as you lose the above to Tie with 115s. So you may as well only run enough speed for Max speed serperior( unless you can outspeed scarf zone, then run max) and dump the rest in hp, as there's no point basically wasting evs imo.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

From my experience, Starmie has pretty bad bulk, so it probably shouldn't use Recover. Also, Leftovers is a more common item for Starmie than Life Orb, so that could be added in.

Natural Cure should also be put as a possible ability so that it can be cured of status.

Starmie has 2 viable sets and one of them is bulky with lefties and natural cure the other is offensive with LO and analytic, items and abilities aren't really interchangeable. Though I would agree that the offensive set probably shouldn't be running recover.

It should be noted in the offensive spread that if you are going to run recover, run dual stab, as being walled by dragon and grass types (if t-bolt) or water types (ice besm) is pretty miserable for offensive starmie in set who's niche is to get rid of hazards and nuke shit with analytic boosted moves, while also having great coverage.
Edit: it should also be noted that if hp fire is chosen max speed is kinda point pointless, as you lose the above to Tie with 115s. So you may as well only run enough speed for Max speed serperior( unless you can outspeed scarf zone, then run max) and dump the rest in hp, as there's no point basically wasting evs imo.

Max speed outspeeds scarfzone by 1 point, so with HP Fire you'd tie with scarfzone, sadly even without HP Fire it just misses out on scarftar (on WiFi it's outsped by both!)

 

[SparksBlade]

i dont get the point of Analytic on the Offensive spread. You're running max speed and one of main selling points of Starmie is that speed with which it'll outspeed a lot of things, so that analytic is a waste there. Natural Cure is definitely the better option as that keeps you good in case of paralysis(read: Prankster Twave).

 

[Kurona]

i dont get the point of Analytic on the Offensive spread. You're running max speed and one of main selling points of Starmie is that speed with which it'll outspeed a lot of things, so that analytic is a waste there. Natural Cure is definitely the better option as that keeps you good in case of paralysis(read: Prankster Twave).

Analytic also works on the switch. So something switches out, and you get the Analytic boost on whatever comes in.

 

[pwnémon]

i dont get the point of Analytic on the Offensive spread. You're running max speed and one of main selling points of Starmie is that speed with which it'll outspeed a lot of things, so that analytic is a waste there. Natural Cure is definitely the better option as that keeps you good in case of paralysis(read: Prankster Twave).

Analytic does heaps to switch ins and gains Many 2hkoez/1hko

 

[thdhted]

I would also like to make a suggestion with the choice item+trick set as with specs, not only does starmie hit hard, but it can dump an item on something that really does not want it and gain a more helpful item.

something like this:

Starmie @ Choice Specs/Choice scarf
252Sp atk/ 252 Spd/ 4 def
timid nature
Ability: Analytic
Hydro pump/scald
Trick
rapid spin
ice beam/psyshock/thunderbolt

 

[boltsandbombers]

I would also like to make a suggestion with the choice item+trick set as with specs, not only does starmie hit hard, but it can dump an item on something that really does not want it and gain a more helpful item.

something like this:

Starmie @ Choice Specs/Choice scarf
252Sp atk/ 252 Spd/ 4 def
timid nature
Ability: Analytic
Hydro pump/scald
Trick
rapid spin
ice beam/psyshock/thunderbolt

I dont think a choice locked Starmie has any viability at all, as it really needs the ability to switch up its moves thanks to its wide coverage movepool and recover. Sure, being able to trick something is nice, but it really is not as useful as the LO Analytic set that can switch up moves at ease, being able to spin on a forced switch or whatever.

 

[Karxrida]

Remove Dazzling Gleam from notable moves, as a neutral Hydro Pump hits Dark-types harder.

Choiced isn't good, since Starmie has great coverage it wants to abuse and Trick gives you massive 4MSS.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Remove Dazzling Gleam from notable moves, as a neutral Hydro Pump hits Dark-types harder.

Choiced isn't good, since Starmie has great coverage it wants to abuse and Trick gives you massive 4MSS.

Dazzling Gleam hits Hydreigon and Cube harder than any other move Starmie has, but as far as I could find those were the only two potential targets for it so yeah it can probably be removed.

 

[bludz]

I've found the offensive spinner to be excellent on Hyper Offense. You don't lose the offensive pressure like some hazard removers and Starmie has solid coverage.

Haven't tried the defensive set yet but it looks like a nice check to Keldeo and Heatran without even needing to use Reflect Type.

Also agreed Choice isn't viable. It removes the utility of Rapid Spin and the LO attacker hits nearly as hard as Specs with the ability to switch moves. Scarf is just silly because Starmie already has awesome speed and this would just make you complete pursuit bait.

 

[Starmei]

Hey :^), I think you should consider 252 Speed on Reflect Type Starmie because things like Raikou and other Starmie are getting a fair bit of usage now. It's only a couple of evs (8) and I'd rather be speed tying with those than 8 extra bulk evs just because it's such a little amount. Best mon ever.

 

[GnralLao]

Is Expert Belt somewhat viable on the offensive set? I'm not sure it is, but it can bluff a choiced set (even though they're not quite viable for Starmie), won't make it lose HP everytime it attacks (I know Starmie is not the bulkiest of mons so this argument is probably irrelevant, but oh well) and still makes Starmie hit kinda hard with super effective moves and/or on the switch. On the other hand, 299 SpAtk (298 with HP Fire) is not that mighty compared to other mons in the OU metagame, so Starmie probably needs all the power it can get with Life Orb to be effective, right?

Also, I don't fully understand the EV spread for the Reflect Type set. Would someone be kind enough to explain it to me?

 

[astroshagger]

Starmie has 2 viable sets and one of them is bulky with lefties and natural cure the other is offensive with LO and analytic, items and abilities aren't really interchangeable. Though I would agree that the offensive set probably shouldn't be running recover.




Max speed outspeeds scarfzone by 1 point, so with HP Fire you'd tie with scarfzone, sadly even without HP Fire it just misses out on scarftar (on WiFi it's outsped by both!)

Can you clarify what you meant at the end when you said "on WiFi it's outsped by both" ? Are the priority mechanics for WiFi different than those of Showdown or something?

 

[Celio]

Specs/Scarf Starmie, why don't you add them? With Greninja gone, they are even better.

 

[bludz]

Can you clarify what you meant at the end when you said "on WiFi it's outsped by both" ? Are the priority mechanics for WiFi different than those of Showdown or something?

I believe on Wi-Fi battles are at level 50 so speed tiers are a little different, but I could be wrong.

Celio: there are a few posts already explaining why Choiced Starmie isn't good. Short version: Starmie needs Rapid Spin

 

[astroshagger]

I believe on Wi-Fi, battles are at level 50 so speed tiers are a little different, but I could be wrong.

Celio: there are a few posts already explaining why Choiced Starmie isn't good. Short version: Starmie needs Rapid Spin

So on X/Y/ORAS there is no way to 6v6 @ lv 100?

 

[Kurona]

So on X/Y/ORAS there is no way to 6v6 @ lv 100?

There is. He should have just said Lv. 50 :U

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

So on X/Y/ORAS there is no way to 6v6 @ lv 100?

There is but lvl 50 is the standard.

 

[MrAldo]

Remove Dazzling Gleam from notable moves, as a neutral Hydro Pump hits Dark-types harder.

Yeah, I wanted some insight regarding this move and potentially Signal Beam. While they seem good on paper, they target very specific pokes and that is not practical in the long run. Thanks for the insight. Removing both.

Starmie has 2 viable sets and one of them is bulky with lefties and natural cure the other is offensive with LO and analytic, items and abilities aren't really interchangeable. Though I would agree that the offensive set probably shouldn't be running recover.

Running recover helps an offensive starmie have some durability cause it can get worn down rather quicly due to life orb recoil and dual STAB hits plenty of stuff. The choice of moves depends of the team so if you have something for said target of "x" move, recover could fit in there, I have seen also having recover on an offensive starmie being pretty helpful. Some more insight on this would be nice though, will be willing to remove it later on.

Hey :^), I think you should consider 252 Speed on Reflect Type Starmie because things like Raikou and other Starmie are getting a fair bit of usage now. It's only a couple of evs (8) and I'd rather be speed tying with those than 8 extra bulk evs just because it's such a little amount. Best mon ever.

Noted. The 16 evs on defense seems negligible (unless it lives something in particular, I have seen those in plenty of spreads). Will love some more insight on this as well, considering. Also, Hi!

Fixing stuff, really appreciate the insight

 

[Celio]

Starmie can use rapid spin while being choiced
I wonder what makes Scarf-Excadrill at rapidspinning better than it; Sure, eq stab and everything.. but starmie also threatens all the spinblockers with a specsed analityc move, a bit of prediction should be there
And scarf Starmie is a good revengekiller in general, kills all the dragons and most boosters, can sponge statuses, and ruin walls with trick.
And btw, the real thing is realizing how strong starmie is: the specsed HydroPumps are too strong, and forcing switches out having analytic is even better, HPump reaches too high levels, and Ice Beam/Psyshok 2HKOs everything supposed to tank the pumps (
Nvm, do what you want, a set should be put forward and analyzed if it has some characteristics and uses that make it cool: pokemon battling is not about two or three sets. This is a waste to the offensive machine that is Starmie, who can also OHKO venusaur, attempt at killing Chansey after rocks and some residual damage, and many other thing water types can only dream of.