Pokémon Starmie

[kabbes]

75% of teams not using Aegislash is irrelevant. The ones that want to keep hazards up (i.e.: the ones that you actually need to spin against) use Aegislash. And that 2hko doesn't matter when Aegis is using shadow sneak, which Starmie is weak to. Once you combine the shadow sneak damage, 2 rounds of life orb recoil and the fact that Starmie is switching into hazards, he is going to be dead before he can spin.

Shadow sneak does not kill Starmie, particularly not on a special attack set (who seriously runs adamant?) -- 65% max damage on that set even on a Starmie completely uninvested in defences. So Starmie can kill Aegislash and have enough spare to spin the next guy sent in.

And I reckon that a lot more than 25% of teams run some sort of entry hazard.

 

[effyouzion]

Shadow sneak does not kill Starmie, particularly not on a special attack set (who seriously runs adamant?) -- 65% max damage on that set even on a Starmie completely uninvested in defences. So Starmie can kill Aegislash and have enough spare to spin the next guy sent in.

And I reckon that a lot more than 25% of teams run some sort of entry hazard.

Here's how Starmie works against a standard deosharp team that uses Aegislash to spin block:

1) Starmie switches in, takes 2 layers of hazard damage. He's at 76%
2) Starmie predicts the Aegis switch in and uses hydro pump. Starmie is at 66% (life orb recoil)
3) Aegislash uses shadow sneak, which hits for:
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 140-168 (53.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Starmie is now at 13% maximum.
4) Starmie uses hydro pump and kills Aegislash. Starmie is at 3% (life orb recoil)
5) Guy with hazards sends out anything with priority or a scarf and forces Starmie to die, either from the hazards next time he comes in or at the hands of the priority/scarf user.

Anyway, if my argument is wrong then answer this: why don't more people use Starmie? It's been almost 8 months and Starmie has only fallen in usage. That's not a coincidence.

 

[kabbes]

Nothing's perfect, admittedly. But it comes down to team needs. If the removal of hazards in all circumstances is a priority then you may need to look elsewhere. Of course, you will always have trouble, even so. Excadrill may well be walled by air balloon Aegislash (and, as mentioned, you may not want more ground/steel in your team). Defog users will have Bisharp to worry about. Life isn't simple.

I have a team with two resistances and two neutralities (Starmie aside) to stealth rock, and plenty of recovery options. So hazards are not my primary concern. In the situation you describe, the opponent will have lost one Deoxys and one Aegislash for my loss of one Starmie and hazards up. I can live with that. I'd view that as advantage me.

 

[BenTheDemon]

So why is the official Smogon line that bulky Starmie is not worth bothering with?

I don't know, but that's literally all it has over Greninja.

 

[Terrakion.]

Mind if I bring up Bulky Starmie with Reflect Type? This thing is a pretty legit spinner when your looking for something to counter Bisharp and other things. If you don't know what Reflect Type does, it makes the user the opposing Pokemon's typing which means Starmie will become a Steel / Dark Pokemon. Bisharp carrying Knock Off / Sucker Punch / Iron Head means that Starmie is resisting those hits. I found quite some success with it and helping Starmie getting Rapid Spins off with a typing better than Water / Psychic. A spread I've been using consist of these.

Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 Spd
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Recover
- Rapid Spin / Psyshock
- Reflect Type

Scald helps against Pokemon as said earlier such as Bisharp by walling them and being able to burn with Scald. The Max HP and the defense EVs helps it tanks physical attacks that it needs to before getting a burn off with Scald and can recover off any damage taken from previous turns. The 224 Speed allows it to outspeed Base 110s which was normally used to outspeed Gengar. (Spread was similar to last generation because Starmie had Psychic and 12 SAtk Psychic / Psyshock OHKO'd Gengar-- 12 SpA Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 264-312 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO) It is possible that you don't need Rapid Spin and still want to OHKO Gengar so Psyshock is definitely and option. If you carry Psyshock > Scald, it contradicts the point of this Starmie set to counter Bisharp.

 

[Tressed]

Reflect Type Starmie

Or you could just hit it in the face as it switches in.

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 341-402 (125.8 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This set also doesn't help much against Aegislash, who's basically the only thing stopping you from just straight up spinning right now since Gengar gets outsped and destroyed with Psyshock. An offensive variant can chunk through it at least.

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 177-211 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Imo you go all out offensive if you want to Rapid Spin this gen. Defoggers are really the only ones that can effectively go defensive effectively, a la Skarmory et Zapdos.

 

[Sweetstack]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Starmie changes its type, wouldn't it then lose its ability to 2HKO Aegislash with Hydro Pump since it no longer has STAB on it? If Starmie is no longer a water type, doesn't really have anything outside of STAB, supereffective hidden power to try to take on Aegislash, which reduces its effectiveness as a rapid spinner.

 

[Tressed]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Starmie changes its type, wouldn't it then lose its ability to 2HKO Aegislash with Hydro Pump since it no longer has STAB on it? If Starmie is no longer a water type, doesn't really have anything outside of STAB, supereffective hidden power to try to take on Aegislash, which reduces its effectiveness as a rapid spinner.

I'm talking about running HP / Psyshock / Filler / Rapid Spin Analytic Starmie with LO, not Reflect Type. My point is that Reflect Type and bulk doesn't help Starmie with Rapid Spinning. It makes it a bit easier to come in and out, sure, but it loses to Aegislash and Gengar with that as well, which makes it really bad (you could run Psyshock for Gengar, but then either you lose to Bisharp, which is the entire point of the set, or you lose Rapid Spin, which is the whole point of using Starmie right now).

 

[Sweetstack]

I'm talking about running HP / Psyshock / Filler / Rapid Spin Analytic Starmie with LO, not Reflect Type. My point is that Reflect Type and bulk doesn't help Starmie with Rapid Spinning. It makes it a bit easier to come in and out, sure, but it loses to Aegislash and Gengar with that as well, which makes it really bad (you could run Psyshock for Gengar, but then either you lose to Bisharp, which is the entire point of the set, or you lose Rapid Spin, which is the whole point of using Starmie right now).

I was actually agreeing with you. I was expanding a bit on the part where you said that Reflect Type doesn't help much against Aegislash since losing STAB hydro pump hurts Starmie's abilities to dispose of Aegislash. Sorry that wasn't made clearer.

 

[Zekrenzo]

I was actually agreeing with you. I was expanding a bit on the part where you said that Reflect Type doesn't help much against Aegislash since losing STAB hydro pump hurts Starmie's abilities to dispose of Aegislash. Sorry that wasn't made clearer.

Not to mention that it's still weak to Aegislash after a Reflect Type since it would make Starmie Steel and Ghost which is still weak to shadow sneak and pursuit. The only utility I see for this move is to copy T-Tar/Bisharp type and switch out without being killed

 

[Terrakion.]

Not to mention that it's still weak to Aegislash after a Reflect Type since it would make Starmie Steel and Ghost which is still weak to shadow sneak and pursuit. The only utility I see for this move is to copy T-Tar/Bisharp type and switch out without being killed

That was kinda the point of the set that I made. Being able to tank those two hits (Of course there are more Pokemon such as copying Ferrothorns Steel / Grass against it etc.) while being able to have reliable recovery and being a defensive spinner. I'm fully aware that it is still weak to Aegislash, but that's what 5 other members of a team is for.

 

[DarklingNinja]

I think that trick + choice scarfing Starmie is a potent combo. I understand why many people have passed it up but I am going to put some reasoning here for this set. I would like some feedback and thoughts from the community.


Item: Choice Scarf
Ability: Analytic
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Psyshock
- Trick
- Rapid Spin

First off, Choice Scarf + analytic, this would allow Starmie to do 2 very nice things. One it would allow it to out speed threats that are faster than it that attempted to switch into it thinking they could take a hit then out speed it for an easy kill. Mega-Aero, Jolteon, Greninja all fall into this category. The thing is, none of them can survive a 30% boosted hydro pump followed by a second hydro pump. Gengar also gets owned by a boosted hydro pump. You have 4 of Starmie's counters taken care of right there. Though Tyranitar is still an issue, after a boosted Hydro pump followed by another Hydro pump, he is an easy clean up especially with all his weaknesses. If Tyranitar has not chosen to run pursuit, then it just took a major hit from hydro pump. Though Aegislash can still be an issue, after a analytic boosted attack even it will feel some hurt, and that thing cannot chase Starmie out like Tyranitar.


That leads me to trick, with Special Walls and walls are running around every where and the thing is they all would be rendered almost useless with a choice scarf. With all the Walls running around it in this gen it should not be hard to find a great candidate to send choice scarf over to in exchange for some tasty leftovers. Now you have neutered an opponents wall that would have checked or countered Starmie and made Starmie more durable.


Starmie's biggest issues this generation are pokemon that can out speed it and wall it. Choice scarf + Trick solves both of these problems. This set can be a destructive force against both offensive and defensive teams. I think this set actually deals very well with the current meta. This set allows Starmie to be a special attacker, wall breaker, revenge killer, a late game sweeper, and a stall breaker. That's a lot of versatility for one poke'mon

 

[Random Passerby]

The thing about Starmie is its base 100 Sp. Atk is too low and it often needs Life Orb + the ability to switch moves to kill things. Without that, you want Rain support with Analytic to smash potential switch-ins with Hydro Pump. Equipping a Choice Scarf to such a weak Pokemon who already has great Speed to begin with screams of gimmick especially when you are only running Hydro Pump and 1 other move from T-bolt / Ice Beam / Psyshock meaning it doesn't have enough power. It isn't too hot against present metagame threats either: Greninja beats you unless you run T-bolt (which only has a 12.5% chance to KO after Stealth Rock) , Talonflame OHKO you with priority Brave Bird (after Rocks), Assault Vest Ttar and Bisharp still beat you regardless. Mega Aero and Jolteon are so rarely seen that giving up the power of LO + the ability to switch moves for the surprise value of Scarf isn't worth it imo

 

[Habib]

How about this for a Doubles random matchup moveset (just the moves)

Cosmic power
Minimize
Recover
Surf/Psyshock

One teammate with psyche up (also maybe with dryskin/water absorb) and Bam game over!

 

[Comorant]

How about this for a Doubles random matchup moveset (just the moves)

Cosmic power
Minimize
Recover
Surf/Psyshock

One teammate with psyche up (also maybe with dryskin/water absorb) and Bam game over!

Don't want to sound like a jerk, but this set doesn't work well at all. If you're playing doubles, Protect is needed for mind games, dealing with priority attacks, blocking status, and all sorts of similar things. On top of that, anything that requires set up in Doubles, especially VGC, needs to be able to set up fast. Whatever you're trying to pass boosts too with Psych Up needs to be ready to go in that turn.

 

[Karxrida]

How about this for a Doubles random matchup moveset (just the moves)

Cosmic power
Minimize
Recover
Surf/Psyshock

One teammate with psyche up (also maybe with dryskin/water absorb) and Bam game over!

You should take this to the Doubles/VGC forum. This thread is for OU sets and strategies.

 

[Rosen]

Aight fuckers, Aegislash, aka the only relevant spinblocker Starmie couldn't beat, got the boot, so I dunno about you but I'm thinkin it's time to bring this baby back.

 

[Karxrida]

Aight fuckers, Aegislash, aka the only relevant spinblocker Starmie couldn't beat, got the boot, so I dunno about you but I'm thinkin it's time to bring this baby back.

Excadrill still exists.

 

[Rosen]

Excadrill still exists.

Yeah guess who beats Mold Breaker Excadrill 1v1

Exca was heralded so highly as a spinner cuz it was the only spinner capable of beating Aegis, also Exca checks totally different shit than Starmie, bar spinning the two have literally nothing in common so that's really not even a good comparison tbh

 

[trc]

Excadrill still exists.

Since when was Excadrill a spinblocker?

 

[Rosen]

Since when was Excadrill a spinblocker?

I think he meant Exca outclasses Starmie as a spinner, with which Aegis gone that isn't even true anymore

 

[Reverb]

With Aegislash banished to Ubers, I anticipate increased viability for Starmie. Medicham-Mega will see more usage, so the bulky Recover-spinner set will become highly useful for handling Medi (in addition to checking a number of other threats). This is the set I would use:

Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 4 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Recover
- Rapid Spin

 

[effyouzion]

With Aegislash banished to Ubers, I anticipate increased viability for Starmie. Medicham-Mega will see more usage, so the bulky Recover-spinner set will become highly useful for handling Medi (in addition to checking a number of other threats). This is the set I would use:

Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 4 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Recover
- Rapid Spin

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 24 Def Starmie: 197-232 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 99-117 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Starmie is definitely not handling Medi or "a number of other threats." Your only hope is to switch in on a weak move like ice punch, then pray that scald burns before he hits you. If scald doesn't burn, there's a chance you get 2hko'd by ice punch + hi jump kick after just 1 layer of hazards. And if you switch in on a hi jump kick, it's over before it even began.

Starmie is just outclassed this gen. Base 100 special attack is bad, and base 85 defenses are bad without investment. The only thing good is the speed -- which doesn't matter as much in this bulky meta unless you have power, defenses, or utility to back it up.

 

[Adversary]

life orb set could be a decent cleaner and rkiller in my opinion, easy beat offensive teams and you just be aware of sucker punch/talonflame
im gonna try it but not sure it will work

 

[Rosen]

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 24 Def Starmie: 197-232 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 99-117 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Starmie is definitely not handling Medi or "a number of other threats." Your only hope is to switch in on a weak move like ice punch, then pray that scald burns before he hits you. If scald doesn't burn, there's a chance you get 2hko'd by ice punch + hi jump kick after just 1 layer of hazards. And if you switch in on a hi jump kick, it's over before it even began.

Starmie is just outclassed this gen. Base 100 special attack is bad, and base 85 defenses are bad without investment. The only thing good is the speed -- which doesn't matter as much in this bulky meta unless you have power, defenses, or utility to back it up.

Cha no, don't knock it til you try it

btw the BulkMie set is just one of many, and even so those calcs aren't the greatest b/c Mega Medicham sure as shit ain't gonna stay in on risking getting clipped at the balls by Scald, but anyway I digress, here's the LO set against MegaCham:

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 164-192 (62.8 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

also with Aegi gone, Starmie is now the #1 spinner so far as beating spinblockers goes, and Analytic means unless your name is Chansey or SDef Gastro good luck safely switching in to a LO Analytic boosted attack:

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Venusaur: 252-299 (69.2 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Venusaur: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

look at dem calcs, clean 2HKO on phys def Mega Venu, let's see that wanky Excadrill do that:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Venusaur: 127-150 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Hmmmmmmmmmm

Also les look at some top-tier shit, see how Starmie does there:

S-TIER:

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 515-608 (160.9 - 190%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 192-227 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (yeah I know Sucker Punch is a clean OHKO, that's not the point -- have fun switching into that)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 257-304 (85.6 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (100% after SR)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 164-192 (55 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (which, unboosted, Adamant Zard-X Dragon Claw fails to OHKO at full health, so lookie who wins 1v1 vs the one of the scariest mons out there)

A:

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 333-393 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (no free switch ins for you, Azu)
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 247-292 (90.8 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

etc etc

My point being, Starmie is now the best offensive spinner in OU, yeah there's other shit like offensive Defoggers in the Lati twins and Exca's not bad either, but again they all check different shit and outside of hazard removal Starmie and Exca aren't even remotely comparable, with Aegi gone Starmie is the numero uno spinner in regards to beating spinblockers, which for an offensive spinner is a pretty big fckin deal. Starmie outspeeds and beats a lot of top-tier shit 1v1, and even what it doesn't (Bishart, MMawile), almost nothing can safely switch in to the LO Analytic set without taking massive damage. So to say Starmie is outclassed is, at this point, no longer true.