Stat Decay & Boosters

[Dogfish44]

It's back again!

Open discussion, since there's a lot of points being made. Focus discussion on the merits and flaws of the current decay system, and the strength of boosting moves.

Current Discussion

Stat boosting moves have ridiculously complicated rules and are generally useless in battle.

I'd like to explore the possibility of removing decay as a means of easing the rule set and making them viable with stat modifying moves following in game ±1/2 convention.

In theory this should be a nice simple flowchart. However, when you look at it, there are so many stupidities it's crazy.

Take a Pokemon who starts the round at +1 SpA. They use Tail Glow A1, whilst their opponent uses Confide A1. Now by the current logic, the Confide would lock in the stat at +3 - this is actually just as bad as if they hadn't used Confide at all.

The system as it stands works, but it's needlessly complex. A smaller stat boost and permanency might make sense here?

Honestly, stat boosts (outside of tail glow/swoobat) are kinda iffy even without decay. I wouldn't be opposed to just keeping them as-is but without decay.

texedit: also evasion

Making boosts permanent and lowering the boost from them is counterproductive given the point is to make the moves simple to understand and not useless in battle save specific niche abusers.

Maybe I am wrong and a Swoobat with +12 DMG and -12 DMG on the special side with no way for the stats to lower naturally is too good but that is very subjective.

I mean the only time you would see these things normally is when you are fighting a Shuckle or you are raiding but even then you are better off dealing damage in the latter case anyway.

This isn't the first time this issue has been brought up and it won't be the last if rejected, but I don't see any real reason to change it outside the aforementioned "its bad buff plz"

The thing with Swoobat, though, is that its whole strategy is shut down by Taunt, Haze, Roar, Heart Swap, Psych Up (to an extent), Imprison (most users get calm mind anyhow), Skill Swap (stealing unaware shuts down stat boosters pretty well), and the fact that it takes 3 turns to set up. Or just smashing its face in with physical moves (100/2/2 bulk isn't exactly inspiring). The main reason to change the decay rules are more because they're confusing than anything else, imo. Stat boosts becoming slightly better is a bonus.

Nitpick: Swoobat can actually counter those strategies since it itself gets Taunt, Imprison, Skill Swap, Psych Up, Magic Coat, etc, alongside its naturally high speed. Also nobody is saying you have to get it to +6/+6 to let it rip.

Yeah stat boosters can be countered through phazing etc but it is not as easy as you think in Swoobat's case lol.

Suggestion doesn't get countered by saying "swoobat op lololol"

Stat boosts are terrible, removing decay goes a long way towards helping them be relevant

Prove me wrong

edit:
Precisely the point. Removing decay gives things like Smokescreen an actual reason to be used and potentially gives a valid substitution against the common Protective/Evasive move.

We need only look at Weakness Policy to see that there's some clear value from non-decaying stat boosts, even if part of that value is driven from a passive activation.

Would stat drops stop decaying, too? Because being at perma -1 Spe after bring hit with Bulldoze would be pretty bad, and things like Draco Meteor and Leaf Storm and the like would drop in usage, since in ASB you tend to have to hit more than once and making all your subsequent hits weaker is not a great idea.

Presumably yes they would stop decaying. For things like DM/LS my first thought is simply not to punish for attacks that don't deal damage. Generally those attacks shouldn't be your primary offense anyway and so making them slightly more reliable might help offset the stat drop.

edit: If there's an alternative solution that also simplifies stat boosts I'm all ears

 

[Frosty]

Little time = small input

If your issue with stat boosts is how complicated they are, then let's discuss this I suppose. Personally I don't see the need (TBH I always felt that the previous system was better, but oh well) and I feel it can create issues better left alone (evasion, accuracy and baton pass chains to be more specific...stuff that plague ingame that we don't have much problems with yet). But I suppose it can be discussed as it is a problem to a good degree, as it took me a long time to get used to those rules myself.

But if your advocating removing decay so stat-boosts have acceptable power then I'll have to disagree. I doubt that even if you remove decay stat boosts will be used more (or that much more) than normal attacks. And if you boost them further, then you will end up with them being undeniably better than standard attack moves and you will just create another problem, not balance. In ingame, stat-boosts carry an opportunity cost that balances the outcome and makes them not better or worse than standard attacks, just different options for different strategies. In ASB, that opportunity cost is pretty much non-existant, due to our turn system and, in the end, we will just pick the move that will net the most damage in the end, whether it is a stat boost or a standard attack (one of them will always be better than the other, as damage dealt is pretty much the only major variable you have to consider). Removing decay won't make stuff balanced and may bring up a series of potential metagame-harming issues, making it probably not worth the hassle. At least as a mean to boost said stat-boost moves.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

No, the main thing is that they're freakishly complicated. Boosting their power to make them even slightly more viable is just an added bonus.

 

[Its_A_Random]

The counterpoint to the counterpoint to removing decay wrt power is that unless you are facing something like a Shuckle, a Regirock with a physical attacker, a Regice with a special attacker, or your name is Swoobat or Volbeat, nine times out of ten you are better off using a standard damaging move (Not counting Serperior since its main stat-booster is flipping Leaf Storm). The more damage you deal normally, the greater the opportunity cost attached to using a stat-boosting/dropping move (You could argue there is none in the case of turning a 3HKO into a 2HKO or a 4HKO into a 3HKO). Then there is the argument of "Does it matter in the long term?" And nine times out of ten it generally does not because Pokémon do not last long enough for it to matter generally unless you are playing something like Volbeat Pass and passing to something like Big Root Roserade/Cradily; an niche strategy that nobody uses that is easily telegraphed to the opponent.

But the power concerns is beside the point; merely a byproduct of the original proposal. The main thing we are looking at in this is a way to have a decay system that is much easier to understand and to a lesser extent, attempts to remove the "Useless Useful Spell" tag (or makes it less useless) that stat-changing moves are associated with. Apart from remove decay altogether, the best I can think of is to make all stat boosts maintain the changed stat in the round they are used before starting to reset towards zero; a direct improvement over the current system wrt simplicity and lessening the uselessness of stat boosters even though no one will still use them. The main issue is that moves like Meditate lose their distinction but it does not really matter, besides, the cheap EN cost is distinction enough.

Otherwise imo, its a matter of either keeping the current system, doing what is underlined, or remove the whole thing altogether.

 

[TSRD]

For those of us who were not here back then, what was the reason for Stat Decay to begin with? Given how weak the bonuses are compared to in-game it makes me wonder why Decay even got implemented.

 

[Its_A_Random]

For those of us who were not here back then, what was the reason for Stat Decay to begin with? Given how weak the bonuses are compared to in-game it makes me wonder why Decay even got implemented.

Had to search around but here is a post from Deck the last time this topic was brought up:

It would probably be wise for me to explain my logic about stat boosts and why the numbers are what they are. Some of this will seem logical but impractical, and other parts illogical but practical.

Priority 1: Balance!

The thing about stat boosters is that they are game-defining in the cartridge games. Set-up sweepers are extremely powerful, and any Pokemon that gets a stat-up move is automatically more viable than a Pokemon that does not get any, or gets irrelevant ones (e.g. Swords Dance on Sunflora which has neither the speed nor physical versatility to use it). As such this meant in the transfer over to ASB - a system partly designed to increase parity between very strong and very weak mons in comparison to the cartridge games - if stat boosters were too strong then this goal would be more difficult.

On the other hand, stat boosters couldn't be useless. They initially started at 1.5 ending damage per stage, but this didn't really fit any iconic in-game situations and was a major let-down. The only stat that really benefited from this was Speed. Eventually I decided to buff it to 1.75, and I made that decision based on some in-catridge speed calculations. Max Spe +1 Tyranitar outspeeds Starmie. Well, there aren't EVs in ASB so I had to approximate, and a +1 +Spe Tyranitar hits 124 Spe, which is faster than a Starmie that doesn't have its own boosting nature. Imperfect, but again this is the problem with an EV-less system (and god no, I'm not gonna even attempt implementing something like that).

As far as stat boosts vs. abilities, that was another balance thing, since most of the Swift Swim, Sand Rush, and Clorophyll pokes would be way overpowered if they were equivalent to +2 Spe. Making them a literal double was a compromise that made the abilities useful, but let other mons outspeed them via a stat boost.

Strategy and Decay:

Decay was a mechanic I devised to further balance stat boosters, particularly negative ones. This is why decay also works on stat drops so as not to make those too powerful as well. Since ASB has sort of an opposite orientation to switching, stat drops can outlast their user since defense boosters are rarer than stat drops in general. You can last ditch Screech in a switch = KO and, sans decay, but your opponent at a massive disadvantage.

Decay also allowed strategic placement of stat boosters as a skill that could be utilized in battle - action timed elements add depth to the game and simulate a real-life battle, where you'd perform moves in a certain order or a certain time to get the effect you wanted.

Finally I should mention why they're additive and after W/R. This was again to differentiate them from in-game, and also to prevent the escalation problem Zhengtann mentioned - just making stronger Pokemon more powerful by making them impossible to outpace if they already have the advantage. This makes stat-boosts better if you're using weaker or even NVE moves that have a more desirable effect.

Now I have been thinking about boosting the effect to the "true stats" since we already have items/abilities etc. that do that, I just don't want to go too far in the other direction. I was thinking a boost of 2.5 or 3 per stage. Just remember that Belly Drum, Tail Glow, and Shell Smash exist, so whatever extremity they're at gets exacerbated, and remember these boosts are per action, not per round.

And a really old 2011 post as to why he made stat changers like he did (Assuming the original decay system):

As far as stat boosters, I look at them from an energy efficiency perspective. Using a +2 booster on your first action is the most inefficient thing you can do, but here's what it does from a damage/energy use perspective:

Round 1: Damage+0(Stat Up), Damage +3, Damage +3: Total damage +6.
Round 2: Damage +1.5, Damage +1.5, Damage +1.5 Total damage +4.5.

Total damage = 10.5. Energy Cost; 7. As it so happens, this most inefficient use of a +2 booster is slightly more efficient than the standard 10 Base Attack Power Move (10 BAP, 7 Energy Cost.)

Using a Stat Booster where it's most efficient results in:

Round 1: Damage +0, Damage+0(Stat Booster), Damage +3 Total Damage +3
Round 2: Damage +3, Damage +3, Damage +3 Total Damage +9
Round 3: Damage +1.5, Damage +1.5, Damage +1.5. Total Damage +4.5.

Total Damage = 16.5. Energy Cost: 7. This is far and away more efficient than any attacking move, and you get the effects of weaker damaging tactical attacks as well. On the whole I think +2 boosters are very well balanced.

Granted all this would have required you to attack with the boosted attack stat for every action, but nonetheless I feel the numbers speak for themselves.

+1/+1 Boosters are a different story though. Those are indeed very inefficient when used on the first action of a round. About the only use might be Claw Sharpen since at least then you get an extra strike on a multi-hit attack guaranteed. Used on the second or third action I think they justify themselves. Used most efficiently you'll end up with 6 more damage, and either take less damage or force your opponent into using attacks off their weaker stat or weaker Base Attack Powers.

Those few attacks that are just +1 boosts are balanced by the fact the boost is maintained at the end of the round. This makes them slow, but they can be used repeatedly to weaken foes over time.

Take what you will from it.

 

[ZhengTann]

To answer TSRD's question, I did a search on Policy Center using the keywords "stage boost". Thank the mods for moving related stuff to this subforum.

As it turns out, the original mechanics related stat boosting move started as a Word of God, during the conception of ASB. Read a page or two further if you want to get a clearer idea- Wait, did I read it right, Swords Dance and co. only give +1 on subsequent uses?

...... And IAR beaten me to the punch. Although my digging around was from year 2010 :P

* * * * * * *​

History lesson aside, I did come up with an idea about decay. Instead of the current, maybe complicated, natural stage and decay per round stuff, we could maybe just attach a fixed duration a la Soak and Magnet Rise. So for example, using Swords Dance gives you a fixed +2 Attack for like 6 actions, then you revert back to +0. Example two, the Attack drop from Intimidate would have infinite duration. Subsequent boosts stacking on the same stat may or may not refresh the duration. I'll run a few crunches tomorrow to see if this is a viable solution, balance-wise. If I do post the results, that means I'm fully backing the idea. If I don't, that means I'm scrapping it.

 

[TSRD]

So, given the current state of the game (with the various changes since that time) do the arguments presented there still hold up (assuming they did then) as valid and necessary?
Are there any areas people want to explore in depth to support the current system or support changing it?

 

[Frosty]

History lesson aside, I did come up with an idea about decay. Instead of the current, maybe complicated, natural stage and decay per round stuff, we could maybe just attach a fixed duration a la Soak and Magnet Rise. So for example, using Swords Dance gives you a fixed +2 Attack for like 6 actions, then you revert back to +0. Example two, the Attack drop from Intimidate would have infinite duration. Subsequent boosts stacking on the same stat may or may not refresh the duration. I'll run a few crunches tomorrow to see if this is a viable solution, balance-wise. If I do post the results, that means I'm fully backing the idea. If I don't, that means I'm scrapping it.

Just a small reference: this was the previous system. +1 boosts last 4 actions and +2 last 2 actions. I assume we changed it for a reason.

IAR's suggestion of everything decaying on the following round onwards is a very nice one.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Okay thinking about it I have a few concerns about removing decay other than OMG <insert abuser here>, mainly:

• Anger Point: Congratulations, you gave your opponent a permanent +12 DMG to their physical attacks by critting them! Counterpoints I guess involve only one "relevant" Anger Point Mon, instant +6 boosts are not that absurd from what we learned wrt Volbeat and a couple of other points I cannot think of. Is a chance-based +6 really enough of an issue to worry about?
• Smokescreen et al: One thing that we need to remember is that these moves are inherently degenerative in nature. Sure they might not be as bad as they are now, but do we really want these moves to be permanent even though no one uses these? I do recall losing a hall to Mud-Slap spam so we need to keep in mind of their degeneracy, especially when something like Shuckle is involved (yes I admit to the extremity there).
• Barrier and Acid Armour: If we go ahead with this, then these moves are going to become Fake Out clones wrt their added effects. Is this a bad thing? Should we alter these effects to compensate?
• Anything else I can think of in the future.

Basically I want to see these concerns addressed at the very least before I can go ahead with supporting no decay as well as any future concern that pops up. Also "Just switch out?" and other things like "Use Roar or Haze." and "You are paranoid." are not valid responses sine they just sweep the concern under the rug, especially since I feel these points are legitimate enough to warrant a serious answer. Please give me sufficient answers that address these concerns peeps.

 

[Mowtom]

I support the option to make all stat boosts maintain the changed stat in the round they are used before starting to reset towards zero, as it achieves the goal of simplifying the system without all of the debates as to if anything may or may not be overpowered.

 

[Its_A_Random]

What should we do with the decay system?
Keep the current system
Make all stat changes maintain the changed stat the round it is used
Remove the system altogether

Moving to voting in 48 hours time. Nothing else that needs to be discussed and my unanswered concerns honestly say a lot here.

 

[Mowtom]

Option 2 should say round, not action

 

[Its_A_Random]

... Make that > 48 hours because I was lazy... -.-'