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-Status and Entry Hazards-

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by TheStriker, Nov 11, 2012.

?

What is the most useful entry hazard?

Poll closed Nov 26, 2012.
  1. Stealth Rock

    94.6%
  2. Spikes

    4.7%
  3. Toxic Spikes

    2.3%
  4. Useless to Metagame

    3.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. TheStriker

    TheStriker

    Joined:
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    Entry Hazards and Status Conditions have changed the metagame since the beginning of pokemon. They have been very useful and could've cost loses without them. These also cause some rage-quits if the opponent has no rapid spin user and you have Stealth Rock against a team of x4 weak to stealth rock. How do you think these shaped the metagame. Is status counterable? Here is quick reference to your status to conditions and entry hazard an dpokemon that use it well.

    Entry Hazards

    Stealth Rock:These things are the most common because its one set-up and can do from 1/2 to 1/32 damage every switch in
    -1/8 to nuetral damage to rock
    -1/16 to x2 resistance to rock
    -1/32 to x4 resistance to rock
    -1/4 to x2 weakness to rock
    -1/2 to x4 weakness to rock

    Spikes: These are less common because it varies and rapid spin spoiles the turns you wasted but the do decent damage combined with stealth rock
    -1/8 with one layer
    -3/16 with two layers
    -1/4 with three layers

    Toxic Spikes: Probably, ultimate rage-quit hazard if opponent has no spinner or heal bell support because after two layer, it'll make survivabilty five times harder, but a experienced player usually has a way to take it away not to mention that a lot of pokemon can avoid it
    -Poison with one layer
    -Badly Poison with two layers

    There are many users of entry hazards but lets talk about the viable ones.

    [​IMG]

    Forretress has amazing defensive stats. 75 / 140 / 60 is awesome letting it wall physical attackers easily. It has aceess to all entry hazards and can hit hard with STAB Gyro Ball. Not only that, but it has an amazing typing. Bug / Steel counters evrything and in rain, it is almost impossible to beat on the physical side. They have rapid spin which is a great tool because it removes all entry hazards and isn't blocked by taunt. The bagworm has its cons though. It is complete taunt bait so crawdaunt and gyarados can set-up on it or get a free dragon dance and possibly end the match. Team Preview completely spoiled it as a lead and is easy to predict when it comes in, however all walls have been affected like that. But, it doesn't matter. Forretress is great for entry hazards.

    [​IMG]

    Ferrothorn was released in Gen V and has completely changed the metagame. It had amazing defensive stats letting it go physical or special. It also had high power moves like Power Whip and Gyro Ball which gained STAB. It had Iron Barbs to hurt rapid spinners and possibly cause ends because of spinners sitting at sturdy position and typing. Grass / Steel lets it wall common attacking types such as Electric, Water, Dragon, Psychic, Dark, and Rock. However it has a weakness to common attacking types too, Fire and Fighting. These traits let it set-up Spikes and Stealth Rock with ease. This lets it become the #3 pokemon on most used OU.

    [​IMG]

    Espeon doesn't have any hazards on its side, but it can set-up hazards using its ability Magic Bounce which bounces back all non-attacking moves like Thunder Wave, Taunt, and Spikes. All it does is switch in on something like Qwilfish or Blissey and free entry hazards. This also means rapid spin will never be needed because its almost garunteed that hazards won't be on your side. Espeon also has an impressive 110 Base Speed so it can run Dual Screens efficiently with max HP. It 130 Base Special Attack makes it a threat so Fighting and Poison types lose their value a little. Magic Bounce is also available with Xatu in UU, another great member who has access to Roost.

    [​IMG]

    Deoxys-D has departed ubers into OU where it is a top defensive threat. It can lay down Stealth Rock and Spikes, recover off the damage, and then kill the opponent's spinner with HP Fire, Thunderbolt, or Psycho Boost. With 50 / 160 / 160 defenses, it'll take prediction if its running a special or physical wall / both. However, it has a poor defensive typing. Psychic fails to wall top threats like Volcarona and Tyranitar. However, there is more to it. Deoxys-D can wall dragons easily and its almost unknown what its running, like Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Psycho Boost, HP out of 17 types so its hard to know what its checked for. Gyarados thinks its running Ice Beam, goes in and zapped by T-Bolt. Period. Deoxys-D is a great entry hazard setter that supports a team completely.

    Spinners

    Spinner help take away entry hazards and are very imporotant especially if you have volcarona or something

    [​IMG]

    Donphan jumped the borderline into OU this generation. It has great defense and amazing offense with base 120 Attack. It is a great spinner in the OU metagame, but there is one problem, it can't absorb toxic spikes. Like other spinners, he is a ground-type not a steel-type, so he'll get badly poisoned which is really bad. Despite that, he is great for revenge killing Salamence and Garchomp with priority Ice Shard and has Earthquake which is super powerful which is great to take out walls like Heatran and killing Lucario. Donphan has an immunity to thunder wave which is great. His special defense is low even with investment, so thats another problem. Also, the recent ban of sand veil makes it harder for Donphan to avoid attacks, so its forced to use Sturdy. It may go to the borderline again, but its still a great spinner.

    Status Conditions

    Burn: Very useful against physical attackers. Scald is one of the best moves for defensive pokemon out there
    -12.5% damage per turn
    -Foe's Attack is cut in half

    Paralysis: Great condition because it cause lots of hax when combined creating ParaFlinch, ParaFusion, and crippling fast threats like Terrakion and Choice Scarf users.
    -25% chance to not move per turn
    -Foe's Speed is lowered to 25%

    Sleep: The most useful condition thats reliable which may cause free set-ups or forcing the foe to switch
    -Cannot move when asleep
    -Last 1 to 4 turns
    -Can only use Sleep Talk or Snore

    Freeze: This is super rare, but the most useful condition because it can last longer than sleep and there is nothing else called Ice Talk, just unthawed moves like Flare Blitz
    -20% chance to unthaw per turn
    -Can defrost with certain moves Ex. Flame Wheel

    Confusion: Super annoying especially when you have a bunch of boosts in your belt, you'll hit yourself!
    -50% to attack your self
    -Last 2 to 5 Turns

    Poison / Badly Poison
    : The most common condition in the metagame because it can be used to stall out HP and is widely distributed
    -Badly Poison cause +6.25% damage per turn (Reset after switch)
    -Poison causes 12.5% damage per turn

    Pokemon that use status well

    [​IMG]

    Sableye was one of the worst pokemon during its release with two crappy abilities but this generation and useful for only spin blocking and its good typing that has no weaknesses, but it came to UU with Prankster where it got priority Will-O-Wisp increasing its physical bulk before it got hit and recover off the damage first and set up substitutes then attack with a strong foul play. Taunt gets rid of Deoxys-D and if foul play isn't enough, it can use Night Shade. Despite this, Sableye can only burn and has a BST of 380 which is horrible. All in all, Sableye can be deadly especially against Hyper-Offense teams where burn is a big solution to them.

    Best Moves for Status

    Scald
    Thunder Wave
    Will-O-Wisp
    Confuse Ray
    Discharge
    Force Palm
    Spore

    Abilities for Status
    Effect Spore
    Poison Touch
    Flame Body
    Magic Bounce
    Synchronize

    When you post keep these in mind.

    1. Will any new hazards become a pro or con? Ex. ParaNeedles
    2. Are Status and Entry Hazards overpowered?
    3. Are Choice Users greatly affected by status?
    4. Will Clerics become more popular? Ex. Heal Bell
    5. All conditions are easy to induce except Freeze. Is it overpowered?

    Are there any mistakes in this? Anything you want me to add? Say whatever you want, I don't care if it follows the questions or not. Well, See Ya Later.
  2. DEMo_Gorgon47

    DEMo_Gorgon47

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    I didn't think regular Poison caused the same amount of damage as Burn. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think regular Poison is only 6.25% damage per turn.

    Anyway, clearly Stealth Rock is the most pivotal and game changing move in existance, making Pokemon like Volcarona think twice before switching in. However the other hazards are a little more tricky to utilize, as Steel & Poison types are immune to T-Spikes, and the ever so common levitators and fliers are immune to both forms of spikes, which is why most teams can survive without those types of hazards. But due to their prevelence, it is almost a certain that Clerics with Wish and Heal Bell will remain an integral part of the metagame.
  3. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    No regular poison is 1/8, but it doesn't stack or do anything else so its rather pathetic to be honest.

    My notes:
    -Skarmory is also an excellent user of spikes, especially now that Garchomp is hanging around.
    -Toxic is a very common move to spread around poison.
    -Confusion is not a status condition, it is a status infliction, a very vague difference only talked about if you read one of those crappy pokemon guides. Other status inflictions include leech seed, disabled, love, and cursed.

    To be honest, the only 2 options should be stealth rocks vs no rocks, all the other hazards are clearly outclassed by stealth rocks, spikes and t-spikes are just icing on the cake. The only option really is do you need them at all, I think you do just there have been some successful hyper offensive teams that don't worry about it at all.
  4. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    In my opinion, I hate Toxic Spikes. I don't really hate going up against them, but I hate using them. Why? Well when you set up Toxic Spikes, unless it's a Poison type, Flying type, Steel type or has Magic Guard or Levitate, the rest of the players Pokemon has Toxic status the entire game (unless a team member is carrying Heal Bell of course). This sucks because now I'm stuck with everything having to be poisoned, and I can't take advantage of other status inflicting moves that my team carries. Choice Scarfed Terrakion isn't going to care if it's Poisoned because it's switching in and out the entire game, whereas paralyzing or burning it would have rendered it useless the rest of the game. Toxic Spikes is amazing against Stall teams, however, with the prevalence of Pokemon with immunity to T Spikes, and poison status keeping more offensive teams at the advantage, I almost see it somewhat more as a waste. I actually like it when someone throws out T Spikes, because now my Choice offensive pivots wont have to worry about Burn, paralysis, and Spore. Stall teams are very hard to use now, so I honestly don't see an excuse to use it. The only thing I can see it useful against, is to combat sweepers which a LOT of common ones like Latias, Lucario, and Reuniclus are immune to it. I'll stick with Toxic on Tentacruel, so I can choose what I want to be crippled with Poison.

    The worst thing is, you HAVE to get up 2 layers. One layer is like a weaker burn without the side effects of lower physical damage output. Giving the entire team poison status is almost helping them from being crippled by other status that can actually ruin you the game. If they have recovery move, then it's even less of a problem.
  5. Asek

    Asek A heart of stone, a smoking gun
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Gonna have to agree here, I personally don't like toxic spikes right now. Inbetween levitating pokemon, Steel types, Rapid spinners and opposing poison type pokemon, it is far too easy to either avoid the problems they cause or just get rid of them. Not to mention that the only setter that really sees common use is Tentacruel. Forretress and Roserade will show up with the move occasionally, but its otherwise rarely seen. Tentacruel sometimes even drops Toxic Spikes for toxic itself, so its not very common at all. If you can guarantee that you can protect them, and that they are going to have an effect on the match then sure they're great to use, but if you can't do that then theirs not much point in having them. Not to mention the fact that offensive teams don't benefit very much from them, so slower paced play styles are the real ones who can utilize them, and since offense makes up a large portion of teams that further puts a dent in Toxic Spikes use. Should stall rise up somehow, then I'm sure toxic spikes would rise up with it, but the metagame is fairly against them right now

    Stealth Rock is basically a must on every team, there are next to no teams that don't carry it. Without Stealth Rock being used, all the powerful levitating sweepers that terrorize OU in Volcarona, Gyarados, Salamence, Dragonite and others will be very difficult for your team to handle, as Stealth Rock is really what helps keep these in check, especially in Dragonite and Volcarona's case. Dealing damage to every pokemon bar magic guard users as they switch in is something most teams can't go without.

    Spikes have seen a really big boom in usage in BW2 with the rise of Deo-D offensive teams. Deoxy-D is the poster boy of this play style, being able to pretty much secure Stealth Rock + A layer of spikes unless your carrying something that can keep it to just Stealth Rock. CB Ttar's crunch does this, but it lets either Genesect or Terrakion carried on loads of HO teams set up and damage you. This is the case for most ways to restrict Deo-D's hazard setting, CB Genesect used to work for this as most deo-d were geared to give it an attack boost letting it OHKO with U-turn, keeping all hazards off the field and giving you the momentum. However some Deo-D now carry tanga berry to help it against both Genesect and Scizor, once again proving that not one pokemon can counter all Deo-D lead variants. This is bad news for the opposing team, as if the opponent gets 2 layers of spikes up your at a severe disadvantage right from the start, and it can more than often mean GG. Ferrothorn remains your other option for setting these up and has always been popular, so rain teams will very often carry spikes considering ferrothorn is almost standard and nessecary on them. Skarmory and Forretress are also cool options for setting up spikes, and can work very well if you come in on a weaker physcial attacker, giving you a chance to get multiple layers up

    For your list of hazard setters I would like to see Bronzong added. Its great typing and defenses make it an ideal SR setter in the current OU environment, and it can do a fair amount of things besides setting up Stealth Rock. Using its resistance to them and HP [ICE] it can make a serviceable revenge killer to dragons locked into outrage, and it can sponge Draco Metoers throughout the match, although its lack of recovery lets it down in some of its roles. It is a pretty reliable and serviceable Stealth Rock setter right now, so I would add it to the OP
  6. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    I like Stealth Rock beause it's just so easy to fit onto a team - since its distribution is so universal, I don't have to run a specific 'mon on my team that can set it up, as is the case for Spikes.

    It would be worth adding some more offensively oriented SR users to that list - e.g. Terrakion, Mamoswine, Landorus-T etc. Skarmory is must too if you're going to list Forretress/Ferrothorn. The ability to phaze and have reliable recovery allow it to differentiate itself from those two, despite lacking some of their niches, such as Forretress's ability to spin and Ferrothorn's useful set of resistances.
  7. FrostFireBolt

    FrostFireBolt

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    I think you maybe just forgot it but shouldn't Toxic be in the Status Moves section?

    On the topic of hazards, I remember having a discussion with a friend who thought Stealth Rock should be banned (or at least to test a metagame without SR) because it's centralising, puts a strain on team building and makes too many things less viable. Maybe there's some truth in it, maybe not. I just thought it was an interesting point. I wonder how powerful Spikes would be if they did type-dependent damage like SR. Would Heatran, Magnezone and other 4x Ground weak Pokemon still be OU based on their other merits? Toxic Spikes are kind of hit and miss for me. In OU most Pokemon are immune to their effects and in the lower tiers you have better options for grounded Poison types to absorb them. For example, in UU you have Nidoking and Roserade, among others, who are valuable teammates as well as TS absorbers.
  8. Nyara

    Nyara

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    I completely agree with him, I think an OU metagame without SR (for testing, and for offer more variation than anything else before tried) could be really, really interesting. For example some great Pokémon like Articuno and others are on NU/RU ONLY for their weakness to SR, and that's the same reality for almost the 80-95% of the fully evolved Pokémon. Almost any team have a Rapid Spin user, a SR user, and a Pokémon that works well with SR setted only because dat move (in other words, the actual shape of OU is almost 100% oriented on SR). Also, SR changed the way to play the battle to a completely different way, strongly more oriented on sweepers who can OHKO only thanks to SR, and on stallers who can constantly force switches, and make a lot of tactics actually useless because that.

    Also, SR makes the game a lot more oriented on the Fighting and Steel types, because their resistance to SR (and usually resistance or power against the SR users).

    Toxic Spikes by other hands is not a lot of trouble, exist a lot of Pokémon with status-healing abilitys, or using berry’s for coverage, or with status-healing moves, or just can't be poisoned at all (Steel + Poison + Flying + Levitate Users), or some Pokémon just doesn't care to being toxicated at all because; they wanted to explode, help on a set, rapid spin and get K.O, counter something, check and being K.O'ed, help other more important Pokémon, or just and the most common: sweep until get K.O'ed or win. And the Guts users usually loves Toxic Spikes because that usually common move allow them to set and use a Choice Band or Scarf at the same time.

    Spikes can be deadly, but Spikes is not so deadly like SR, because the Flying + Levitate Pokémon doesn't care about it at all, only 1 spikes is not usually so destructive, and set more than 1 spikes is usually hard, and even if you do that, you'll most probably lose a Pokémon, and you'll have to outcome a 6vs5 battle. Also, Spikes without SR is not really a great tactic at all, most of the time.

    An OU without SR I think it will be less centralized, because exist a lot of counters to Volcarona and friends, still, without need of SR. And SR by other hand, make the game too centralized on itself. I think a OU test or alternative without SR could be a pretty enjoyable and different experience.

    Note: Also, is also funny the fact that a huge number of counters to the OU SR weak Pokémon are on lower tiers because their weak to SR, and thus, usually never used as counter to them, without SR the amount of available counters to Volcarona and friends increase (a lot), too. By other hand, I think an alternative OU without SR should be best than a OU without SR (without the existance of a OU with SR), mostly because the community did get used (a lot) to the SR allowed variant (from the Gen 4), and banning it could change the complete current metagame being slightly refined by all those years.

    Note 2: Anyway, I always preferred normal poison over toxic poison, why? Normal poison is stronger on the first and second turn, and toxic is exactly the same on the third, and on this fast paced metagame, three turn is an eternity, and... if the user change and comeback, you'll have again a 2 turns superiority. The unique reason to toxic on place of poison for me is to check some sets of Chansey and maybe Starmie for the 1/2 recover move, so, I'm better with just 1 layer of Toxic Spikes. Anyway, why poison something you can ParaConfFlinch? That's the best wallbreaker of the entire game, at least for me.
  9. TheStriker

    TheStriker

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    -JoshuaMunoz think entry hazards are useless to the metagame

    Okay, well, toxic spikes are amazing when you have proper support but it can be a problem if something has hydration, steel-type, poison-type, different status, poison heal, toxic boost, wow, this list is long. This is really bad. Spikes are great especially for lucraio and x4. I guess entry hazards are mainly for lategame sweeping and breaking sashes but thats all. It also helps with forcing the opponents spinner so all you do is predict a switch move to a spin-blocker or something with Fire Blast or whatever its weak too.
  10. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    The problem with regular Poison is that it just isn't particularly crippling when compared with other status conditions, including Toxic Poison. In fact, it can actually be a benefit to them as it makes them immune to other status conditions. Something that is suffering from regular Poison can easily stay in and negate the passive damage by using a recovery move. On the other hand, Toxic Poison means that they are forced out after a few turns. The 2 turns of extra damage are pretty menial if you ask me, especially considering most the things you'll want to be Poisoning aren't particularly threatening much in a single turn. If you want to cripple offensive Pokemon, why not just Burn/Paralyse/Sleep them?
  11. Nyara

    Nyara

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    @DarkBlazeR: That's what I said, xD, I don't see any high superiority on poison or toxic poison at all, the other status (even confusion alone) are far superior to poison or toxic poison most of the time. It's better just inflict other status to stop the sweeps or deadly stalls, so, I only see poison useful if you're not looking to use other status on your team, but you're still needed of extra damage to deal OHKO's, and a single layer of Toxic Spikes or normal poison usually do that job better than toxic poison (because 6% and later 3% on two turns are a kinda important difference between K.O and not K.O, especially against Leftovers users), and usually normal poison is more easy to inflict that toxic poison. Ah, and yeah, normal poison deals damage to Leftovers users every turn, when Toxic only do that from the second turn and forward, and this's really important for those Pokémon with status-healing moves; they can't just cure it always! Toxic Poison is only useful against 1/2 recover users or slow sweepers (almost not existent), at least for me, but poison provided an extra help on any other circumstance.
  12. PryorConvictions

    PryorConvictions

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    I think SR is the one of the best moves in the game right now. I think it's 100% necessary on virtually every single team. Although it's a necessity, I don't really see the point of a spinblocker as long as your SR user is bulky (garchomp, landorus-t, jirachi, etc.) enough to survive throughout the match. Spikes is pretty cool too. Although it doesn't hit every single Pokemon in the game like SR does, getting hit at least 12.5% by the majority of Pokemon screws up your team fast. I think it is worth it to be down 6-5 if you get spikes up because it really screws up the other opponent's team fast as long as you have a spinblocker. Pokemon such as Salamence, Kingdra, Lucario, etc. are already extremely hard to switch into and spikes + sr doesn't alleviate this problem at all. The metagame right now is already fast paced as is and all residual damage will help you immensely. Voltturn strategies also really benefit from spikes and sr since it causes so many switches. Toxic Spikes is probably the dumbest move ever and don't use it lol.

    Entry hazards and status moves aren't overpowering in my opinion. If you look at the definition of overpowering, which in my opinion is something that is too good for the metagame, I can't really see both entry hazards or status moves from being "too good". They help out a lot (and make matches shorter which I like) but I think that issues like Dragonite without SR is much more pressing than entry hazards and status moves. Both entry hazards and status moves are pretty useful against choice users, and I think that it really helps stop some annoying choice threats. Status effects are really the bane of many choice users. Scarf users just can't do much when they're paralyzed or even when they are burned since it really just leaves you with almost deadweight. I don't see clerics really becoming more popular since tbh I haven't seen an increase in usage of Heal Bell or Aromatherapy and see no reason why it would suddenly increase in usage. I think the main issue right now about status effects are the effects of para and burn. Scald is such a great move right now because of the 30% burn rate and how either you risk getting burned or you let your fire type get hurt by a 2x effective move (since fire types are the only type that can't get burned). Paralysis basically makes a Pokemon slow as a Slowbro and really prevents Pokemon from doing anything. Something I think people are overlooking is that Toxic is actually a really nice status effect. Bulky attackers such as Keldeo, Volcarona, or Dragonite can take a good amount of hits and toxic can really stop them from sweeping effectively.

    Overall, I think that hazards and status moves are really just a nice addition to the metagame. It shortens matches for the most part and I like that. Seriously though, without hazards or status moves, matches would be really dull and I think it could be even more overcentralizing than people think. Choice threats can be much more effective, physical threats can be even stronger than they are right now, and threats such as Volcarona and Dragonite will be near unstoppable. Essentially, there would be a couple really good threats such as Salamence and the aforementioned that would overcentralize the metagame even more. Also, threats like Ninetales or annoying Pokemon like Tornadus-t would be stronger without hazards. I can even see Kyurem being more effective because it would no longer have to endure spikes + sr. That may seem more beneficial from the outside but if there were no hazards or status effects, stall would be nonexistent (moreso than now) and the metagame would get stale fast.
  13. dragonuser

    dragonuser The only thing I look up to is the sky
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    While Toxic Spikes aren't as useful as they once were, I think it would be an exaggeration to say they are useless or bad. While they aren't very helpful vs some teams, they can be game breaking vs others. Albeit this list is growing smaller and smaller as time goes on, but Toxic Spikes do have use and can really help in wearing down your opponent.

    Also for hazards layer's, I would definitely add Skarmory to the list as it is a fantastic layer of Spikes. I think other offensive layer's like Terrakion/Garchomp/Aerodactyl should also get a special mention as they are reliable Stealth Rock layers and have been used many times to a lot of success. For the spinners section Starmie, Forretress, and Tentacruel should also get mention. In addition to Donphan, these are the most popular spinners in the metagame (and really the only ones used). And since Spinners are being included, maybe Spin Blockers can also get a mention. Gengar, Jellicent, and Sableye are the primary Spin Blockers in BW but Pokemon like Chandelure and Golurk can fit niche needs.
  14. Nyara

    Nyara

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    @PryorConvictions: Well, without SR some Pokémon will be moved to the Ubers, and some others from UU/RU to OU pretty easy, so, the "broken" status is not really a problem removing SR. And yeah, actually, SR make them more powerful because almost all their counters are weak to SR (for example: Dragonair hate STAB Ice Beam, but all the stab Ice Beamers are weak to SR, and because they are OHKO'ed after a SR, their are not used at all).

    Also, some great stallers suffer A LOT with SR, and thus, are barely used because that, so, and really, seriously, a metagame with SR could be completly different, but not "more offensive" or "defensive" than now, and a good proof is how it was on Gen 1-2-3 (specially 3, pretty more balanced on defensive and ofensive).

    Anyway, the status moves are not broken (even Sleep without Sleep Clause, becase Pokémon bring you a lot, but a lot of sleep counters in that circunstance), they are great for the not offensive Pokémon and make the game more balanced, and the all other entry hazards (except SR) are pretty balanced on general (and help again, with the variety).

    Stealth Rock by other hand is extremly overpowered, for the mere reason that move make unnable almost the 80-90% of the Pokémon to competitive levels, and the who can get benefit of it, a good number of them are on OU only because they resistance to SR (or for being spinners or blockspinners), at the end, the metagame of 4 and 5 generation is total oriented to SR (a Pokémon is bad or good? Look at him if he can OHKO or 2HKO with SR or survive with SR, if he can whatever of both, he's good, otherwise is ugly, or just read the recomendation of each Pokémon of OU/UU and you'll not be able to avoid the words Stealth Rock at all).

    Anyway, Toxic Spikes is not a useless move, it can be pretty good, and Toxic help some Pokémon to make stall an able option.
  15. Dracule Mihawk

    Dracule Mihawk

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    Hazards are quite an important part of the meta, and I think stealth rocks are the most important out of them all. SR is so game changing, without it things like MS Dragonite and Volcarona would be harder to handle and would run amok even more. It helps check many pokemon, and without it makes harder for teams to check pokemon such as Gyarados or Mence. Furthermore, it's the only hazard to hit flying types where spikes and Tspikes do not. Sr also allows for set up pokes to reach certain KOs they would not be able to get otherwise after a boost. There is no doubt that is an integral part of the meta, and all teams must have a SR setter, it's become such a staple. Sure some pokemons viability have been hurt, such as Articuno or Charizard, but eh I'm not too sure about their usage in OU if SR did not exist. It would be interesting if a SRless meta existed.

    Spikes is quite useful, they have increased in usage due to Deo D HO teams, which were rampant in the round 7 suspect for Kyu B. Deo D has become a premier spikes setter, and the many ways people have checked it, Deo D users have responded. For example, a recent example is the use of the tanga berry to help against things like Genesect and Scizor, or the rare mental herb which stops taunt. Deo D also generally carries magic coat to stop opposite taunts. I find it quite weird that Skarmory is not listed as a spikes setter, I would rather think Skarm is the poster bird for Spikes since gen 3. Skarm still has use in this meta and is still good at setting up spikes, it should be added to the list.

    Toxic spikes doesn't really see much usage in this meta, as things like Venasaur and Tentacruel are more common, but this does no detract from the use of Tspikes. As dragonuser has said, they still have some use in wearing down pokemon even if they are in decline. They still have some use in breaking down walls and such so it's not bad to carry a tspike user.

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