1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Stratagem Analysis Workshop

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by darkie, Oct 28, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. darkie

    darkie mfw i see alison brie
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Public Relations

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    6,052
    [SET]
    name: LO Attacker (Levitate)
    move 1: Calm Mind / Substitute
    move 2: Paleo Wave
    move 3: Flamethrower / Ice Beam
    move 3: Energy Ball / Earth Power / Focus Blast
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Utilizing Stratagem's copious Special Attack and Speed, this set focuses on sweeping the opponent's team once their special wall is gone.

    As Stratagem's most reliable STAB move, after a Calm Mind, Paleo Wave will wreak havoc on anything that does not resist Rock. Energy Ball is useful to hit Swampert and other bulky Waters and Grounds who otherwise wall you. Flamethrower is Stratagem's best option against Scizor, who threatens with STAB Bullet Punch off an excellent attack stat; however, Stratagem can only win an encounter with Scizor if it Flamethrowers on the switch-in. Focus Blast hits Steels as well, though its shaky accuracy is doubtful considering Stratagem's less than stellar defenses. Although it also hurts the flying Dragons, Ice Beam is often unnecessary, as they are already covered by Paleo Wave; it is more useful to damage bulky Ground-types such as Hippowdon. Earth Power can be used to fill in the gaps, hitting non-Levitating Steel-types for super effective damage.

    Substitute is another option over Calm Mind, protecting against revenge kills while loosing the sheer power of Calm Mind.

    [SET]
    name: Sub CM
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Calm Mind
    move 3: Paleo Wave / Weather Ball
    move 4: Earth Power / Flamethrower
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 64 HP / 96 SpA / 96 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    This set plays much like Sub/CM Raikou, except with much better speed and special attack, in exchange for less durability. This set is best used in Sandstorm, because <Rockmon> will become a very fast special tank with all the boosts. The strategy is simple. First, switch in on something you can use as set-up bait, such as a choiced Earthquake or Earth Power. Then, Sub as they bring in a revenge killer or wall. If they bring in something like Blissey, you can continue to set up on it, alternating between Substitute and Calm Mind. If they bring in Scizor, attack it and get out once it breaks your sub.

    Paleo Wave and Earth Power provide the best coverage, but if bulky waters and Tyranitar aren't a problem, you can run Flamethrower over Earth Power to hit Scizor and Bronzong harder. Be aware that without a sub up, both will still kill you. Weather Ball is a more powerful option than Paleo Wave in Sandstorm, but be aware that when Sandstorm isn't running, Weather Ball is a Base 50 power Normal-type move.

    The EVs allow for a leftovers number +1, allowing you to use Substitute five consecutive times before having to switch out. Max speed is needed to revenge kill Shaymin-s, since the only things faster than you are Ninjask, Electrode, and scarfed Pokemon.


    [SET]
    name: LO Attacker (Technician)
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Ancientpower
    move 3: Giga Drain
    move 4: Fire Blast / Vacuum Wave / Air Cutter
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Technician
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    With the invaluable Ground immunity granted by Levitate, people often overlook Stratagem's second ability, Technician. They are mistaken, as Technician allows you to utilize the better abilities of some of the weaker moves at his disposal.

    The idea is simple. Get in a Calm Mind and do some damage. Ancientpower is your STAB move, which hits Flying-types hard. 10% of the time, you may also get a +1 boost in all stats, setting up Stratagem for a sweep. Giga Drain is one of the biggest assets granted by Technician, as the HP drain will let you last longer and even beat Toxic-less Blissey one-on-one.

    Your last move is an issue of preference. Fire Blast OHKOs just about everything weak to it after a Calm Mind including Bronzong, but Vacuum Wave lets you get the drop on other Stratagem and is your strongest move against Tyranitar. Lastly, Air Cutter lets Stratagem beat up on its best counters, Hariyama and Revenankh.

    [SET]
    name: 4 Attacks (Levitate)
    move 1: Paleo Wave
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: Energy Ball / Ice Beam
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    This Stratagem boasts better coverage than the Calm Mind sets, however it will not be able to power up and therefore is more vulnerable to some opponents.

    While the first two moves are pretty much set as they give coverage against every OU threat bar Bronzong, the last two slots are really up for grabs. Energy Ball hits Bulky Ground types and Bulky Waters harder than any of Stratagem's other options, while Ice beam hits Dragons hard. Bear in mind that Paleo Wave will hit flying types anyway, so Ice Beam is largely unnecessary.

    [SET]
    name: 4 Attacks (Technician)
    move 1: Ancientpower
    move 2: Giga Drain
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: HP Flying 60/ Vacuum Wave
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 252 Spd

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Technician allows Stratagem access to some of the more interesting moves it has to offer, in exchange for immunity to Ground. Ancientpower, while only slightly more powerful than Paleo Wave with Technician, has that 10% chance of boosting Stratagem's stats by one stage each, which can make it a beast. Giga Drain is a very useful move for Technician Stratagem, especially if it's carrying Life Orb. Not only is it Stratagem's most powerful move against bulky Ground and Water types (excluding Gyarados), but it can also offset, or even heal off completely, the damage Stratagem takes from Life Orb. Flamethrower is the move of choice for hitting non-Heatran Steel Pokemon, especially Bronzong, which will otherwise wall Stratagem.

    The last move is up for grabs. HP Flying 60 has a near-guaranteed chance of 2HKO'ing the otherwise dangerous Revenankh (and, by extension, the other bulky Fighting types) with Sandstorm and/or Stealth Rock in play.

    [SET]
    name: Choice (Levitate)
    move 1: Paleo Wave
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: Energy Ball / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
    item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
    nature: Timid / Modest
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    Stratagem already has frightening Special Attack and Speed stats, and this set aims to boost one or the other even more.

    With Choice Specs and a Timid nature, Stratagem reaches 508 Special Attack and 394 Speed. Paleo Wave provides a reliable STAB option, and with Earth Power and Flamethrower, provides almost perfect coverage for most OU threats. The last slot can be used for coverage; Energy Ball hits bulky Ground-types and bulky Water-types hard. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are more specialized options, but are not recommended since they do not give any superior coverage to the other four moves.

    With Choice Scarf and a Modest ature, Stratagem only reaches 372 Special Attack, but obtains a Speed stat of 538. This outspeeds Timid Scarf Gengar, and Modest Scarf Shaymin-s. This functions more as a revenge killer than a sweeper, unlike the Choice Specs set.

    Explosion is another option with both items, but be aware that even with a neutral nature it will fail to OHKO Calm Blissey at full health, and most common switch-ins resist Normal-type moves. Focus Blast is an option over Flamethrower to hit Rock-types and Steel-types harder, but the accuracy generally isn't worth it.

    [SET]
    name: Choice (Technician)
    move 1: Ancientpower
    move 2: Flamethrower
    move 3: Giga Drain
    move 4: Vacuum Wave / Earth Power / Air Cutter
    item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
    nature: Timid / Modest
    ability: Technician
    evs: 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    This set differs from the other Choice Set significantly, because of its ability to beat Blissey. Ancientpower is now your main STAB attack, due to it being boosted by Technician to 90 Base Power. Flamethrower is once again there for coverage, as is Giga Drain. Giga Drain also has the added bonus of healing you, which is why it's a good option on a Choice Specs set: the more damage you do, the more health you regain. In the last slot, Vacuum Wave is another move boosted by Technician, and has priority to beat Heatran. Earth Power is a good option too, but isn't necessary due to Vacuum Wave. Air Cutter is a specialized option to beat Revenankh, but you significantly lose coverage.

    On a Choice Scarf set, Vacuum Wave should be replaced by Earth Power in the last slot, due to you being faster than almost everything in the metagame. You could also use Hidden Power Fighting 59 if you like the idea of a Fighting-type move more than a Ground-type move.

    [SET]
    name: Metal Sound
    move 1: Metal Sound
    move 2: Ancientpower
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: Hidden Power Fighting / Vacuum Wave
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    ability: Technician
    evs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Stratagem's ability to force switches is a fantastic reason why a Metal Sound set is viable on it. With Metal Sound, Stratagem has the potential to beat its biggest counter, Blissey.

    With this set, the more you know about your opponent's team, the better. If you know that your opponent has a Scizor, use Flamethrower on the switch. If their Stratagem counter is Blissey, use Metal Sound. After a Metal Sound, a Technician-boosted Hidden Power Fighting has a 35.77% chance to 2HKO Calm Blissey. With Stealth Rock in play, that percentage changes to 91.32%. If Blissey is Bold, instead, Hidden Power Fighting after a Metal Sound has a 95.6% chance to 2HKO, even without Stealth Rock.

    If you're not worried about Blissey, Vacuum Wave is a viable option on Stratagem; however, as Stratagem is already so fast, the move is nearly always a lesser option.

    The EVs are fairly self explanatory for a sweeper like this. Timid is generally the best option, but Modest is always a viable choice.

    [SET]
    name: Suicide Lead
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Explosion / U-turn
    move 3: Paleo Wave
    move 4: Shadow Ball / Earth Power
    item: Focus Sash
    nature: Timid
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    By taking advantage of Stratagem's remarkable speed, a suicide lead set is especially viable. Most notably, Stratagem outspeeds common leads such as Azelf, Gyarados, and Zapdos. This Stratagem set makes sure that your Stealth Rock gets up.

    Paleo Wave takes care of opponents such as Gyarados, Zapdos, and Yanmega, whereas the other move can help take out Azelf or Metagross. Explosion is a good move when your Stealth Rock is up, though if Exploding as a last-ditch effort does not appeal to you, U-turn is also a viable option.

    The EVs maximize Stratagem's Speed first, then, by pouring EVs into Special Attack, you can to help eliminate bulky foes such as Metagross. If a more powerful Explosion is wanted, you can switch to a Naive or Hasty nature, and even put EVs into Attack instead of Special Attack.


    [Other Options]
    <p>Rock Polish could be useful to boost your already monstrous speed to astronomical levels, however you won't be able to ever out-speed priority moves, the bane of Stratagem's existence. Thunder Wave can also serve almost the same purpose by slowing down opponents and crippling sweepers and walls trying to force you out.</p>

    <p>Stratagem gets Swords Dance, Head Smash, Explosion, and Earthquake, which amounts to a suicidal Physical Set. With Stratagem's high speed, it could surprise some counters, however with 60 base Attack it most likely won't go far.</p>

    [EVs]
    <p>Max your speed before doing anything, it's of utmost importance to outspeed Shaymin-s and Weavile, and tie with other Stratagem. The only reason to not max the speed is to use a Technician Hidden Power.</p>

    <p>After maxing your speed, on sweeper sets, max Special Attack. However, on the Sub/CM set you should invest some EVs in HP and Special Defense to take advantage of the boosts.</p>

    [Opinion]

    <p>Fireworks. Stratagem can rip a hole right through the heart of any offensive team without priority moves or a bulky Pokemon. However, it is easily forced out when faced with priority attacks or Pokemon it cannot OHKO. After a CM or two however, the list shortens considerably.</p>

    [Counters]
    <p>Countering Stratagem in the traditional sense is neigh-on impossible; it's too versatile. However, it is possible to force Stratagem out depending on the moveset. If Stratagem lacks a Fire Move, Bronzong is an excellent counter for it, surviving Stratagem's onslaught and promptly OHKOing with Gyro Ball. Scizor is an excellent revenge killer, as Bullet Punch preys on Stratagem's weaker physical defense. However, be wary that Scizor is neutral to Rock attacks, and can be OHKO'd by Weather Ball in Sand after a Calm Mind.</p>

    <p>If Stratagem lacks a Ground attack, Tyranitar is an excellent counter due to it's boosted special defense in the Sand, and can OHKO with Aqua Tail, or severely damage Stratagem with Pursuit. Lucario can revenge kill Stratagem with Bullet Punch or Vacuum Wave, as can Infernape with Mach Punch.</p>

    <p>For Stratagem without Giga Drain, bulky Water-types and bulky Ground-types are excellent counters to it, tanking hits and dishing out Super-Effective attacks. In particular, Vaporeon is an excellent check due to Wish and monstrous HP; Hippowdon has Slack Off and excellent HP and Attack. Both Pokemon can also Phaze out Stratagem's boosts if they choose with Roar to rack up passive damage and set up on their own.</p>

    <p>Stratagem has a very hard time getting past Revenankh, and Machamp, due to their high Attack, relative bulkyness, healing moves, and super effective Fighting attacks. Finally, Stratagem cannot get past Blissey short of Explosion, and Blissey can either status it or just kill it with Seismic Toss, which will always break Stratagem's subs. The same goes for Snorlax, except that Snorlax can outright kill Stratagem.</p>
  2. Goodbar

    Goodbar

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    5,685
    Rocky has no ice beam, and energy ball should definately be an option on the first set, otherwise its pretty much walled by swampert if it carries waterfall, and helps against bulky waters it could win against with a CM and especially in sandstream

    EDIT: wtf, it didn't have ice beam originally, I thought that was the main thing about his set...*feels dumb*
  3. Darkflagrance

    Darkflagrance

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Messages:
    793
    He does have Ice Beam. I was pretty sure of that when I voted for X-Act. Really, it's more the lack of Boltbeam on any set that goes against my gut instincts (although it makes sense considering the metagame).

    Also, it might be nice to have the movepool in the OP for faster reference.
  4. tennisace

    tennisace brock you like a hurricane
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
    Twitter Head

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    6,636
    Erm yeah it gets Ice Beam. I agree with the Energy Ball though, since Rock/Grass/Fire is very good coverage, the only thing I can think it loses to is Heatran, aside from the usual "Scizor wins if it switches in on anything NOT named <fire move>."

    Also: Sub CM

    [SET]
    name: Sub CM
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Calm Mind
    move 3: Ancient Beam
    move 4: Earth Power / Flamethrower
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 64 HP / 96 SpA / 96 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    This set plays much like Sub/CM Raikou, except with much better speed and special attack, in exchange for less durability. This set is best used in Sandstorm, because <Rockmon> will become a very fast special tank with all the boosts. The strategy is simple. First, switch in on something you can use as set-up bait, such as a choiced Earthquake or Earth Power. Then, Sub as they bring in a revenge killer or wall. If they bring in something like Blissey, you can continue to set up on it, alternating between Substitute and Calm Mind. If they bring in Scizor, attack it and get out once it breaks your sub.

    Ancient Beam and Earth Power provide the best coverage, but if bulky waters and Tyranitar aren't a problem, you can run Flamethrower over Earth Power to hit Scizor and Bronzong harder. Be aware that without a sub up, both will still kill you.

    The EVs allow for a leftovers number +1, allowing you to use Substitute five consecutive times before having to switch out. Max speed is needed to revenge kill Shaymin-s, since the only things faster than you are Ninjask, Electrode, and scarfed Pokemon.
  5. Hyra

    Hyra
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2006
    Messages:
    2,679
    "Grass Knot is useful to hit Swampert..."

    No Grass Knot. Otherwise looks good.
  6. Goodbar

    Goodbar

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    5,685
    I'm gonna say make energy ball first, I'm not really sure what EP is hitting that fire/grass/rock isn't, flamethrower hits all steels, energy ball does not much less to ttar, i guess you're kinda walled by infernape but what you gain from energy ball seems a lot better. Heatran can't touch you besides DPulse or a resisted fire blast, while ancient beam (or paleo wave? :D) should do a pretty reasonable amount of damage. Focus blast is just about as useless as EP, only hitting ttar reasonably harder.

    P.S. Congrats on making TL for the 1st Evo project :D
  7. ParadOxymoron

    ParadOxymoron

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2007
    Messages:
    403
    I honestly think that Paleation or Paleo Wave is better. Ancient Beam is a bit bland.
  8. sbc

    sbc

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    2,061
    [SET]
    name: Sandstorm Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Weather Ball
    move 3: Flamethrower / Earth Power
    move 4: Substitute
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 68 HP / 96 SpA / 96 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    blah blah blah

    In sandstorm: 338 HP, 300 SpA and 300 SpD. You beat stuff like Cresselia, Seismic toss-less Blissey etc

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Ancient Beam
    move 2: EarthPower
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Thunderbolt / Energy Ball / Shadow Ball
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Modest
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    blah blah

    Notably outspeeds Timid Scarfgar and Modest scarfmin whilst retaining a sexy 372 SpA. Functions as a revenge killer (duh).

    Ancient Beam vs 4 HP Skymin = 107.33% - 126.69%
    Ancient Beam vs 4 HP Gyarados = 86.75% - 103.01% (15% chance to OHKO, 100% chance after Stealth Rock)
    Ancient Beam vs 156 HP Gyarados = 77.84% - 92.43% (OHKO after SR)
    Ancient Beam vs 4 HP Salamence = 104.82% - 123.49%
    Ancient Beam vs 212 HP Salamence = 90.63% - 106.77% (40% Chance of OHKO, 100% chance after SR)
    Ancient Beam vs 4 HP Syclant = 293.62% - 346.1% (Possible OHKO)

    Earthpower vs 4 HP Heatran = 119.75% - 141.98%
    Earthpower vs 0 HP Infernape = 87.37% - 103.07% (15% chance of OHKO, 100% chance after SR)
    Earthpower vs 4 HP Tyranitar = 39.77% - 47.37%
    Earthpower vs 4 HP Lucario = 96.45% - 114.18% (79% chance of OHKO, 92% chance after SR, 100% after Life Orb recoil)

    Focus Blast vs 4 HP Lucario = 129.08% - 152.48%
    Focus Blast vs 4 HP Tyranitar = 105.26% - 125.15%
    Focus Blast vs 4 HP Heatran = 80.25% - 94.44% (46% chance of OHKO after SR)

    Thunderbolt for waters and reliable Gyara killing, Energy Ball does 69.31% - 82.18% to max/max+ Swampert eh 2HKO on the switch.

    Shadow Ball vs revised Revenankh, ~ 384 HP / 300 SpD = 37.5% - 44.27%
    Shadow Ball vs 4 HP Gengar = 87.79% - 103.82% (20% chance of OHKO, 100% chance with SR)

    So this thing is taking down +1 Gyarados and Salamence, scarfed Skymin, scarftran, infernape, scarfgar, lucario (bar bullet punch) and DDtyranitar pretty reliably.

    [SET]
    name: Rocks and Boom
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Explosion
    move 3: Shadow Ball
    move 4: Ancient Beam
    item: Focus Sash
    nature: Naive
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    Lay down rocks and blow up. vs Azelf you can lay down rocks and presumably so will they then you can kill it before it kills you with Shadow Ball or survive the explosion with focus sash

    Then you blow up whatever you see next. If they bring in a ghost, you at least take a good chunk out of them with shadow ball.
  9. TekkenStorm

    TekkenStorm

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2008
    Messages:
    203
    for the suicide lead set i suggest to go with Hasty nature as timid would lower Explosions effectiveness.
  10. Pombo

    Pombo

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    691
    i cant do it now, but why not a Sub tech Ancient power, to kill and, if get a boost, make bulky subs (specially in sandstorm)... cant it work?
  11. Darkflagrance

    Darkflagrance

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Messages:
    793
    Quoted for emphasis on the Rocks and Boom set? What's with Naive?
  12. tennisace

    tennisace brock you like a hurricane
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
    Twitter Head

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    6,636
    Personally a mention on the other SubCM set would be better. Also, you have 4 hp evs too many. Weather Ball is just too risky with all the Kingdra running around. If Revenankh comes in, your screwed also.

    Ehhhhhh. I don't see the need for Shadow Ball. Neutral STAB Ancient Beam will do more always to every Ghost or Psychic other than Revenankh. Hasty>Naive, your Special Defense gets boosted in Sandstorm, and your Defense sucks to begin with. Personally, put U-turn/Protect over Shadow Ball. Also, the emphasis shouldn't be on attack.

    [SET]
    name: Choice (Levitate)
    move 1: Ancient Beam
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
    item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
    nature: Timid / Modest
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    WIP: Explain the advantages of levitate on choice sets, purpose of sets, yadda yadda.

    Darkie, change the Technician Specs set to "Choice (Technician)", and mention Vacuum Wave on the specs set.

    Personally, I like Ancient Beam, but Paleo Wave is fine I guess. I'll do a formal poll soon.
  13. petrie911

    petrie911

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    859
    [SET]
    name: Charge Beam (Tech)
    move 1: Ancient Beam/Ancientpower
    move 2: Giga Drain
    move 3: Flamethrower/Earth Power
    move 4: Charge Beam
    item: Life Orb/Leftovers
    nature: Timid / Modest
    ability: Technician
    evs: 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    Use Charge Beam to build up Satk, Giga Drain to restore health, and your other two moves to just deal damage. Gets great type coverage, and you could also find a way to fit Vacuum Wave or Ominous Wind or Air Cutter or whatever else you want in there over Giga Drain/Flamethrower/Earth Power.

    Thoughts? (EVs could use work)
  14. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,694
    Surprised at no mention of the basic sweeper:

    [SET]
    name: No setup sweeper
    move 1: Ancient Beam
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: Substitute
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    This <Rocky> boasts better coverage than the CM sets, however it will not be able to power up and therefore is more vulnerable to some opponents.

    While the first two moves are pretty much set as they give coverage against every OU threat bar Bronzong the last two slots are really up for grabs with the best other moves being: Explosion which lets beat Blissey (providing it took some damage switching in) or pretty much anything else but requires you to sacrifice yourself, Thunderbolt lets you take out bulky waters like Vaporeon while Ice Beam does more damage to Ground types and Dragons than any other move.

    The options listed give you a good chance against a Scizor switching in and help with Bronzong.

    ----------
    Should I list different options for the last two spots? Explode+Flamethrower sounds ok but is more vunerable to Scizor, Sub+Explode is a bit odd (less coverage from behind the sub) but could work.
    Maybe Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are more Other Options material?
    Maybe mention that Tech can work if you want to run Giga Drain or Anchentpower?

    Edit: Explosion should be on more sets, like the choice ones.
  15. tennisace

    tennisace brock you like a hurricane
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
    Twitter Head

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    6,636
    Personally, CM is more reliable, even with Technician its gimmicky.

    Ice Beam / Explosion / Thunderbolt in the last slot (In that order)

    Sub isn't going to help if it's a no-setup sweeper, but could be listed in other options. I never like the whole sub/lo idea anyway, you lose too much health, and you have no healing.
  16. LightWolf

    LightWolf lightwoof
    is a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,949
    Thats on a Levitate set, I don't see how Ground type STAB is a problem. Other than that nice set, Hoped that this gets a Grass/Fire/Rock moveset.
  17. Goodbar

    Goodbar

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    5,685
    eric - Sub/LO in my experience isn't very good for anything, if swampert switch into that or any bulky water you've just wasted 35% of your health as opposed to 10%. You could throw on energy ball over EP though, I'm not sure what people are seeing in EP besides hitting infernape, if I'm missing something big tell me but Energy Ball is far more useful as a third moveslot imo. And in that case I don't think substitute would be useful still because TTar, Blissey, and lol infernape still resist you, and revenahnk. And remember with levitate Heatran is not a threat and takes neutral from ancient beam anyways

    Darkie in your first set you mention how energy ball hits grounds that threaten you with ground moves, but the primary ability is levitate, so you should remove the part about it being threatened by ground attacks.
  18. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,694
    I know you lose quite a bit of health but getting to use the right move on their counter is pretty important, 120 base SpA is enough to 2KO a good number of quite bulky Pokemon if you predict right and Sub really would help prediction, but if everyone thinks that its not as useful I will take it off.
    If Sub is not being used then Explosion should most certainly be the primary option for slot 4 without it Blissey, Snorlax and a load of other things just wall you and it can help get you out of a tight spot. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are useful for a few things but most of them can be beaten down by your STAB moves or are not that common.

    As for Earth Power Vs Energy Ball.. Rock/Ground has legendery coverage and EP has 20 more BP.
    Heatran will still be able to hurt you with Fire Blast even if its resisted and if Rocky becomes popular then HP Grass may as well.
    Other than Swampert what is hit harder by EB than by any of its other moves? Well a whole lot is hit harder by Earth Power, almost every rock resist will be the target of Earth Power and those 20 BP are going to cost you.
  19. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,656
    Er, I can't test any of these sets but is anyone interested I can write something for these concepts if anyone is interested. Let me know which you want me to write up (if any -_-). I wanted some feed back before I did anything. Shame this guy didn't get Curse by the way. With that Special Defense, Curse, it could have been fun. Anyway. Here are my theorymon ideas.

    - Rock Polish LO set: With such high speed it would barely need any Speed investment to make use of Rock Polish, allowing you to invest significantly in both Attack & SpA, making an excellent mixed sweeper late game, or, allowing you to invest significantly in SpA & HP for a bulky mid-late game sweeper.

    -bulky RestTalk set. With Sandstream & that SpD it should be able to even hypnosis from stuff like Milotic, Gengar, Yanmega, Bronzong etc. with ease, take there attacks, and still hit hard.

    -sub set. Just substitute to scout, and then attack. useful on something this fast

    -Endure set: Gimmicky but could work with Swords Dance or CM once low on health to activate a Salac Berry or something. SD/CM until you are low on health. Endure the hit, activate the Salac and start sweeping.
  20. Goodbar

    Goodbar

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    5,685
    Every rock resist: ground, fighting, steel. ground hit by energy ball, fighting affected by neither, steel hit by flamethrower and there are 2 steels that resist earth power and only one that resists fire. Apparently Scarftran can't take enough out of rockmon where it'd be 2HKOed without LO recoil or SR, which is still not a 100% chance, but rockmon should see a lot of SS and you're still not in a favorable position to switch in otherwise, unless you wanna KO it and have little or no health left. Pretty much only infernape is the loss, whereas you gain coverage on bulky grounds and waters who will otherwise wall him alot.
    EDIT: EP has only 10 base more pp too
  21. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,694
    Heatran and Empoleon are hit much harder by Earth Power than Flamethrower and it hits a little harder (sorry, I thought EP was 100 BP) against the fighters. In return Energy ball is better for the Ground types (Donphan, Hippo, Swampy).
    There is also the fact that Ground is one of the best attacking types as far as what it hits SE (Electric, Poison, Steel, Fire, Rock) while Grass hits only Rock, Water and Ground SE.
    mm.. I now think they are both worthy options but that Energy Ball is probably still secondary.
  22. Goodbar

    Goodbar

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    5,685
    Flamethrower hits neutral harder than EP, so you can't use that as an argument for fighters besides nape. Empoleon is BL and rarely seen, and I wouldn't stay in to 2HKO if it had switched in on ancient beam, and I mentioned why its not that important to OHKO heatran, I could be wrong as you'd probably need to playtest it to see if EP is actually that essential, but if I am its just heatran (who cant switch into AB) and infernape against bulky waters and grounds, so EB imo is definately primary
    EDIT: Hmm I guess if you were using weatherball it'd be hitting nearly as hard as a SE energy ball...but still for swampert and hippowdon...hmm, in that case I might consider EP
  23. sbc

    sbc

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    2,061
    Aerodactyl is the only other lead that outspeeds you(ties), haven't done the calcs but there may be a chance of surviving 2 Rock Slides.

    Actually now I have done the calcs, 252 Atk Rock Slide does with Naive and 45.18% - 53.31% and with Hasty it does 49.1% - 58.13% so clearly it makes a big difference in terms of surviving two Rock Slides

    You beat Azelf anyway if it chooses to SR on the first turn (which it should do).

  24. Beej

    Beej
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2008
    Messages:
    574
    I have a bit of an issue with calling the first set "standard". It's not necessarily the standard, we haven't tested it. Also the set itself seems a little weak, even in the late-game. Life Orb doesn't seem like the absolute most useful item to run either. I would suggest this:

    [SET]
    name: All-out sweeper
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Ancient Beam
    move 3: Fire Blast
    move 4: Thunderbolt/Energy Ball
    item: Babiri Berry
    nature: Timid
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    This can be compared to the late-game sweeping Jirachi set, however Rockmon has 130 Speed and 120 SpA to boast, along with a potential SpD boost if you choose to use this set on a sand team. It's designed to come in when the opponent's defensive core has been significantly weakened and take the game. In the late-game, when most walls are running low on health, they will be swept by this set. After a Calm Mind, Gyarados and Shaymin-S are obliterated. When Metagross or Scizor is switched in to threaten Bullet Punch, you survive their Steel-type attacks thanks to Babiri Berry and retaliate with a +1 Fire Blast.

    The last move is there to hit bulky waters or grounds, by preference, as hard as you can. Thunderbolt hits Vappy and friends really hard even with Babiri Berry. Energy Ball hurts too, but not as much. However Swampert and Donphan go down easy, and Hippowdon is picked off with residual damage. You could also run Earth Power for Fidgit and Heatran, although it's generally not recommended. Life Orb is also viable on this set for hitting things like Vaporeon and Hippowdon harder with Thunderbolt/Energy Ball, and it is of note that with Life Orb, you will always OHKO Bronzong after a CM. However, you are at risk of being revenge-killed by Bullet Punch Scizor/Metagross. The same applies to Expert Belt, however it allows you to boost your moves without Life Orb recoil.

    ---

    It's a little wordy, I'll rewrite it if there's a problem.
  25. crobatchop

    crobatchop

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2008
    Messages:
    112
    But can anyone solve this problem for "Rockmon"?

    Metagross/Scizor --- Bullet Punch --- OHKO
    Hitmon___/ Breloom --- Mach Punch --- OHKO

    etc.

    So how is rockmon going to deal with those?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)