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Stratagem Analysis Workshop

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by darkie, Oct 28, 2008.

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  1. tennisace

    tennisace
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    [SET]
    name: Choice (Levitate)
    move 1: Paleo Wave
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: Energy Ball / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
    item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
    nature: Timid / Modest
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    Stratagem already has frightening Special Attack and Speed stats, and this set aims to boost one or the other even more.

    With Choice Specs and a Timid nature, Stratagem reaches 508 Special Attack and 394 Speed. Paleo Wave provides a reliable STAB option, and with Earth Power and Flamethrower, provides almost perfect coverage for most OU threats. The last slot can be used for coverage; Energy Ball hits bulky Ground-types and bulky Water-types hard. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are more specialized options, but are not recommended since they do not give any superior coverage to the other four moves.

    With Choice Scarf and a Modest ature, Stratagem only reaches 372 Special Attack, but obtains a Speed stat of 538. This outspeeds Timid Scarf Gengar, and Modest Scarf Shaymin-s. This functions more as a revenge killer than a sweeper, unlike the Choice Specs set.

    Explosion is another option with both items, but be aware that even with a neutral nature it will fail to OHKO Calm Blissey at full health, and most common switch-ins resist Normal-type moves. Focus Blast is an option over Flamethrower to hit Rock-types and Steel-types harder, but the accuracy generally isn't worth it.

    [SET]
    name: Choice (Technician)
    move 1: Ancientpower
    move 2: Flamethrower
    move 3: Giga Drain
    move 4: Vacuum Wave / Earth Power / Air Cutter
    item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
    nature: Timid / Modest
    ability: Technician
    evs: 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    This set differs from the other Choice Set significantly, because of its ability to beat Blissey. Ancientpower is now your main STAB attack, due to it being boosted by Technician to 90 Base Power. Flamethrower is once again there for coverage, as is Giga Drain. Giga Drain also has the added bonus of healing you, which is why it's a good option on a Choice Specs set: the more damage you do, the more health you regain. In the last slot, Vacuum Wave is another move boosted by Technician, and has priority to beat Heatran. Earth Power is a good option too, but isn't necessary due to Vacuum Wave. Air Cutter is a specialized option to beat Revenankh, but you significantly lose coverage.

    On a Choice Scarf set, Vacuum Wave should be replaced by Earth Power in the last slot, due to you being faster than almost everything in the metagame. You could also use Hidden Power Fighting 59 if you like the idea of a Fighting-type move more than a Ground-type move.
  2. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Flamethrower from behind the sub takes out Scizor with no need for Explode, Heatran takes quite a bit from your STAB attacks and can do almost nothing back, Tyranitar will be harmed by your STAB attacks anyway but thats the main one.
    The attraction of Explode is mainly for taking out things that you can't 1KO but will KO you mid-late game when you are getting low on HP due to LO recoil/SR damage and Subing on predicted switches.

    Sorry, I was going off EM's earlier post about the required stat attack.
    However if you Sub on the switch then attack with Paleo Wave as Bliss breaks your Sub:
    339 Atk vs 405 Def & 714 HP (85 Base Power): 100 - 118 (14.01% - 16.53%)
    And add on the Explosion damage:
    156 Atk vs 119 Def & 651 HP (500 Base Power): 609 - 717 (93.55% - 110.14%)
    You still KO.

    Or alternitavely you could move 40 SpA EVs to Atk but thats not really needed.
  3. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    If they're not recommended, generally in Smogon analyses you only write them in comments and don't slash them in.

    The Special Attack and Special Defense EVs look completely arbitrary, like they were just taken from Raikou and assumed to work. Raikou's were designed to make a Sub unbreakable by Blissey Ice Beam with no Calm Minds, but Stratagem has different HP and Special Defense.

    Leftovers numbers don't really matter, but anyway you can go down 64 EVs at a time to hit one (that's 16 * 4)... So 0 EVs is technically "Leftovers + 1".
  4. tennisace

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    They work for now, but I might do calcs to find a more ideal spread later.
  5. Beej

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    [SET]
    name: LO Attacker (Technician)
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Ancientpower
    move 3: Giga Drain
    move 4: Fire Blast / Vacuum Wave / Air Cutter
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Technician
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    With the invaluable Ground immunity granted by Levitate, people often overlook Stratagem's second ability, Technician. They are mistaken, as Technician allows you to utilize the better abilities of some of the weaker moves at his disposal.

    The idea is simple. Get in a Calm Mind and do some damage. Ancientpower is your STAB move, which hits Flying-types hard. 10% of the time, you may also get a +1 boost in all stats, setting up Stratagem for a sweep. Giga Drain is one of the biggest assets granted by Technician, as the HP drain will let you last longer and even beat Toxic-less Blissey one-on-one.

    Your last move is an issue of preference. Fire Blast OHKOs just about everything weak to it after a Calm Mind including Bronzong, but Vacuum Wave lets you get the drop on other Stratagem and is your strongest move against Tyranitar. Lastly, Air Cutter lets Stratagem beat up on its best counters, Hariyama and Revenankh. You could also run Flamethrower if you like the better accuracy over Fire Blast, but it should be noted that you don't always OHKO Bronzong after a CM with Flamethrower, while you do with Fire Blast.
  6. tennisace

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    Flamethrower also KO's anything weak to it after a CM, and I wouldn't want the chance of missing. Can you get some calcs where Fire Blast is better than Flamethrower?
  7. Beej

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    +1 LO Fire Blast on standard 252/128 Sassy Zong: 102.37% - 120.71%
    +1 LO Flamethrower on standard 252/128 Sassy Zong: 80.47% - 95.27%

    You grab a KO on Zong you might not get otherwise, even with SR. Other than that, it's a 120 BP move, a pseudo-STAB Shadow Ball or Dragon Claw etc. It's doing considerably more to threats it hits neutral that switch into it often, like Revenankh. Other than that, it's somewhat limited. If you still think it should be replaced, I have no problem with doing so.
  8. tennisace

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    Its classic "Power or Accuracy", and I love accuracy. However, that calc convinces me to put Fire Blast as the main option, but just put a mention for Flamethrower.
  9. DougJustDoug

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    Reiterating my plea to please get an analysis in the Strategy Pokedex. I don't care if it is perfect or not. We can always update it later. But, we really need to get the Pokedex current.
  10. darkie

    darkie mfw i see alison brie
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  11. Magmortified

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    name: 4 Attacks (Technician)
    move 1: Ancientpower
    move 2: Giga Drain
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: HP Flying 59 / Vacuum Wave
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 252 Spd
    ivs: 31/31/31/30/28/30 (with HP Flying 59) HP-SpDef

    [SET COMMENTS]

    Technician allows Stratagem access to some of the more interesting moves it has to offer, in exchange for immunity to Ground. Ancientpower, while only slightly more powerful than Paleo Wave with Technician, has that 10% chance of boosting Stratagem's stats by one stage each, which can make it a beast. Giga Drain is a very useful move for Technician Stratagem, especially if it's carrying Life Orb. Not only is it Stratagem's most powerful move against bulky Ground and Water types (excluding Gyarados), but it can also offset, or even heal off completely, the damage Stratagem takes from Life Orb. Flamethrower is the move of choice for hitting non-Heatran Steel Pokemon, especially Bronzong, which will otherwise wall Stratagem.

    The last move is up for grabs. HP Flying 59 has an excellent chance of 2HKO'ing the otherwise dangerous Revenankh (and, by extension, the other bulky Fighting types) with Sandstorm and/or Stealth Rock in play. While Vacuum Wave easily 2HKO's Tyranitar, and can be useful against other priority users, like Lucario, Scarfed Pokemon, and opposing Stratagem.
  12. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    Just posting to say that to get HP Flying 60 you need 29/29/29/28/30/30 (HP-SpDef). Also, going HP Flying 59 (31/31/31/30/28/30) significantly lowers your chance of a 2HKO against Revenankh (though I think Mag said this was against 252/252 Careful Rev, which is rare).

    Is Fire Blast worth a mention over Flamethrower or is it the same as the previous arguments for/against it?
  13. tennisace

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    Really? Because I thought the 1 point didn't make a difference really in calcs, while significantly raising IVs.
  14. Magmortified

    Magmortified <b>CAP 8 Playtesting Expert</b>
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    Fire Blast and Flamethrower both 2HKO 252/92 Sassy Bronzong. Fire Blast doesn't need SR to guarantee the OHKO on Skarmory, but that's pretty much it.

    Also, something that's been bugging me on the Suicide Lead:

    I don't like this claim. Stratagem can't prevent the opponent from getting SR up if your opponent has a Sash too. I'd kinda suggest either rewording or removing this sentence.

    EDIT:

    The difference is in the BP and two points off Special Attack. The odds are a slight bit lower for you against 252/252 Revenankh, but in retrospect, it's not that common anyways. Not to mention that, due to not calculating Leftovers, the odds with just Sandstorm or SR are actually pretty low against 252/252 either way. I'll probably change it to HP Flying 59, since 252/136 is a near-guarantee 2HKO with SR and a guarantee with Sandstorm. HP Flying 60 doesn't really need SR or SS as much, but has to deal with the lower stats.
  15. Elevator Music

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    Just went over this in the server, but mainly it's from the 2 extra SpAtk points. I haven't done the calcs myself, just going off what Mag said.

    The lower HP isn't bad, it actually puts you at 319 HP which is good for LO. The lower attack doesn't matter (you actually take less damage from confusion so it's a good thing). The lower defense is irrelevant. The lower Speed shouldn't matter too much, since you aren't going to hit the Speed tie anyways with 30 Spd.
  16. tennisace

    tennisace
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    [Other Options]

    <p>Rock Polish could be useful to boost your already monstrous speed to astronomical levels; however you won't be able to ever outspeed priority moves, the bane of Stratagem's existence. Thunder Wave can also serve almost the same purpose by slowing down opponents and crippling sweepers and walls trying to force you out.</p>

    <p>Stratagem gets Swords Dance, Head Smash, Explosion, and Earthquake, which amounts to a suicidal physical set. With Stratagem's high Speed, it could surprise some counters, but with 60 base Attack, it most likely won't go far.</p>

    [EVs]

    <p>Max your Speed before doing anything: it's of utmost importance to outspeed Shaymin-s and Weavile, and tie with other Stratagem. The only reason to not max the Speed is to use a Technician Hidden Power.</p>

    <p>After maxing your Speed, on sweeper sets, max Special Attack. However, on the Sub/CM set you should invest some EVs in HP and Special Defense to take advantage of the boosts.</p>

    [Opinion]

    <p>Fireworks. Stratagem can rip a hole right through the heart of any offensive team without priority moves or a bulky Pokemon. However, it is easily forced out when faced with priority attacks or Pokemon it cannot OHKO. After a CM or two however, the list shortens considerably.</p>

    [Counters]

    <p>Countering Stratagem in the traditional sense is nigh-on impossible; it's too versatile. However, it is possible to force Stratagem out depending on the moveset. If Stratagem lacks a Fire move, Bronzong is an excellent counter for it, surviving Stratagem's onslaught and promptly OHKOing with Gyro Ball. Scizor is an excellent revenge killer, as Bullet Punch preys on Stratagem's weaker physical defense. However, be wary that Scizor is neutral to Rock attacks, and can be OHKO'd by Weather Ball in sand after a Calm Mind.</p>

    <p>If Stratagem lacks a Ground attack, Tyranitar is an excellent counter due to its boosted Special Defense in the sand, and can OHKO with Aqua Tail, or severely damage Stratagem with Pursuit. Lucario can revenge kill Stratagem with Bullet Punch or Vacuum Wave, as can Infernape with Mach Punch.</p>

    <p>For Stratagem without Giga Drain, bulky Water-types and bulky Ground-types are excellent counters to it, tanking hits and dishing out super effective attacks. In particular, Vaporeon is an excellent check due to Wish and monstrous HP; Hippowdon has Slack Off and excellent HP and Attack. Both Pokemon can also phaze out Stratagem's boosts if they choose with Roar to rack up passive damage and set up on their own. Azumarill gets special mention for Aqua Jet and Huge Power.</p>

    <p>Stratagem has a very hard time getting past bulky Fighting-types; Revenankh, and Machamp in particular, due to their high Attack, relative bulkiness, healing moves, and super effective Fighting attacks. Finally, Stratagem cannot get past Blissey short of Explosion, and Blissey can either status it or just kill it with Seismic Toss, which will always break Stratagem's subs. The same goes for Snorlax, except that Snorlax can outright kill Stratagem. However, watch out for Giga Drain variants, as Stratagem can beat Blissey one on one.</p>
  17. Lawman

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    I personally don't like HP Flying because (iirc since I never risk it now a days) if Rev gets a bulk up in shadow sneak is a 2hko. I would put vacuum wave as the primary option over HP Flying, plus, the drop in the Speed IV causes loses in speed ties, something which can really screw up Stratagem against others.
  18. Magmortified

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    You're obviously not going to send in Stratagem to kill Revenankh. HP Flying is to discourage Revenankh from trying to switch in and counter Stratagem.

    While losing out on Speed ties is a pain, it's not necessarily damning, and personally, I find the ability for Stratagem to deal with Revenankh more important than speed-tying against itself.

    But that may just be me.
  19. jagged_angel

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    Never used HP Flying so I can't compare the two but Vacuum Wave is very useful - Great to beat other Stratagem and OHKOs Lucario with any Life Orb damage.
  20. Beej

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    tennis, great job with the counters part. I would like to make a few suggestions though.

    Along with the other two bulky Fighters you mentioned, I think Hariyama should be noted as well, as it's bulkier than Machamp and has the same ability to beat it. Also I don't think you mentioned that these bulky Fighting-types resist Rock.

    I also think Azumarill deserves a mention. It's relatively bulky, meaning it won't care as much as Scizor if it gets hit with Weather Ball or Paleo Wave (and it resists Fire), and it also has Aqua Jet, which hits first and OHKOs.

    CBTar usually won't care about Earth Power as much as Stratagem will care about Crunch or Stone Edge. In fact, CBTar is among the best non-Technician Stratagem counters in the game with his massive SD and ability to kill with Pursuit.

    Finally, Blissey is not getting through a Calm Mind Technician Stratagem without a status move like Toxic, as the HP healed from Giga Drain allows you to heal quite a bit back, often more than she'll be able to respond to.
  21. TPM

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    I don't if its been mentioned but really, there should be a Swords Dance set. Its power is awesome.
  22. tennisace

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    It's "other options".
  23. jumpluff

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    ily tennis cutie
  24. DHR-107

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    Not really a change or edit, but I was reading this earlier and it didn't make sense. In this sentence, are you reffering to HP Fighting (Which I think is right according to the following sentences) or Vacuum Wave? It should be clarified which one you are talking about.

    Other than that, I haven't seen any errors.

    EDIT: Sorry for thread Necro :|
  25. tennisace

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    Hidden Power Fighting, thanks for the fix. I'll get darkie or bass to edit it.
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