Metagame Suspect Discussion - Baton Pass

[The Quasar]

We have just told about, I'm opening this thread just now and I'm afraid for that, too much work to do. I don't find any support message for a BP ban. And I'm not surpriced about that, so you have just told about.

Baton Pass it's only a game strategy and it's not even so good to win. I played with it (around Torchic and Mienfoo) and against it and I don't see because it should be banned. It slightly restricts teambuilding (something which can oppose it as Taunt/Encore/Haze/Whirlwind/Prorities) but isn't making LC not fun.

About fouth question

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?

It's a interesting question but I think LC has different dynamics from OU, so I think BP don't deserve to be banned as a playstyle. Perhaps a nerf limit it to 2 or 3 could be right.

 

[Heysup]

I don't know why you'd say that as I didn't imply that it cares about the boosts (but it cares about not getting burned but let's not discuss that thing all over again), what I meant is that it can boost against the other Pokémon in the metagame not Fletchling.

You used that as a counter argument for Fletchling not leading against Torchic.

from your post

Not like Torchic won't have any use if the opponent doesn't lead with Fletchling, and you say that Torchic apparently gets beaten by 80% of the metagame (?) but keep in mind that it can set up and get at least +2 Speed boosts on anything that doesn't carry Taunt/Encore/Phazer (which clearly isn't 80% of the meta) and switch into another baton pass chain member that can deal with the thing that was trying to deal with Torchic.

So yea, naturally I brought it up because the +2 Speed doesn't refute my point. That's still "beating Torchic" from the perspective of the Fletchling team.

tl;dr version: The Speed boosts don't matter if the opposing player has a Fletchling. It gets Volt Switched or U-turned to or switched into when you just set up Calm Mind or Amnesia etc. Beating Torchic, when you have a Fletchling, literally just means doing 30% (or w/e the KO point is) or forcing it out to something Fletchling can set up on (most other Pokemon). Your Mime Jr. or Munna can't take 2 hits from +2 Acrobatics, no matter how fast they are (I know Munna can 1/16 of the time or something but w.e).

 

[Yagura]

You used that as a counter argument for Fletchling not leading against Torchic.


So yea, naturally I brought it up because the +2 Speed doesn't refute my point. That's still "beating Torchic" from the perspective of the Fletchling team.

tl;dr version: The Speed boosts don't matter if the opposing player has a Fletchling. It gets Volt Switched or U-turned to or switched into when you just set up Calm Mind or Amnesia etc. Beating Torchic, when you have a Fletchling, literally just means doing 30% (or w/e the KO point is) or forcing it out to something Fletchling can set up on (most other Pokemon). Your Mime Jr. or Munna can't take 2 hits from +2 Acrobatics, no matter how fast they are (I know Munna can 1/16 of the time or something but w.e).

You're saying that Fletchling can beat Torchic when you said in your previous post that Fletch doesn't lead against Torchic however this lets it only get in when the opponent already got some Barrier boosts up which is a thing that Kopaka said (given that you're playing someone who's well experienced and that doesn't make shitty plays), so either I'm missing something here or you're contradicting yourself.

 

[Heysup]

You're saying that Fletchling can beat Torchic when you said in your previous post that Fletch doesn't lead against Torchic however this lets it only get in when the opponent already got some Barrier boosts up which is a thing that Kopaka said (given that you're playing someone who's well experienced and that doesn't make shitty plays), so either I'm missing something here or you're contradicting yourself.

I guess you missed the bottom of the post you quoted. Maybe it was my fault for writing tl;dr but it's probably been said 50 times just in this thread.

Hide

tl;dr version: The Speed boosts don't matter if the opposing player has a Fletchling. It gets Volt Switched or U-turned to or switched into when you just set up Calm Mind or Amnesia etc. Beating Torchic, when you have a Fletchling, literally just means doing 30% (or w/e the KO point is) or forcing it out to something Fletchling can set up on (most other Pokemon). Your Mime Jr. or Munna can't take 2 hits from +2 Acrobatics, no matter how fast they are (I know Munna can 1/16 of the time or something but w.e).

Frankly, a quick reading of almost any well written anti-BP post explains, thoroughly, how easy and algorithmic it is to beat Torchic, prevent further boosting, and dismantle a BP team, especially with Fletchling who particularly doesn't care about the +2 Speed boost you get against most of the metagame. I'm not convinced we are being productive dwelling on something that's been debunked already.

 

[Merritt]

If Fletchling faces off against a torchic that has its berry juice intact and has full health, Torchic will both win and be able to successfully pass. If Torchic has taken either one substitute's worth or SR damage then Fletchling is only slightly more likely to win (it's actually almost a 50/50, funny how those things work) if Torchic is running the spread that lets it survive against fletchling.

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Torchic: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

In addition, if you try to predict a will-o-wisp and SD instead of attacking, you're actually worse off (Burn actually lowers your damage more than SD raises it due to some quirks in the formula).

+2 196+ Atk burned Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Torchic: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

So yeah, at the very least a torchic vs fletchling lead ends pretty well for Torchic.

I have a few replays to help illustrate some of the difficulties Baton Pass faces, and its reliance on prediction/luck going its way.

Replay 1: Me vs Apt-Get http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-218531957

Before the match even starts it's obvious that issues will be had in the form of a very nasty cottonee, but regardless of what it looks like, the match could actually have been less of a fletchling murdered everything. On Turn 5, where Apt made a spectacular double switch, if I had managed to predict that in some distant, bizarre corner of my mind and instead used barrier again, it would have become much more difficult for apt, but the game ended far too early for me to accurately judge what would have happened.

Replay 2: Me vs Teddytom http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-218537908

Once again, my fairly meager prediction skills let me down as I fail to use will-o-wisp on his Corphish's Dragon Dance. Instead I get lucky and win the speed tie with my scarf Gothita and then proceed to end up sweeping, although Teddytom could have won if he had danced on Munna and relied on Aqua Jet in order to sweep.

In general the opponent always has at chance to win where I could do pretty much nothing about it. Baton Pass is so reliant on being able to read your opponent, and hoping that they don't quite make the right move to screw you over, and even then relying on a crit not to happen to you right when it would screw you over that it's not even a very good strategy, forget broken. Against a good player it's much easier to spot weak points, while lower ladder players tend to be worse at seizing opportunities and applying pressure.

On the other hand, these replays should show that if a nerf to FullPass is needed (big if), then BP would need to be reduced to 2 members per team. 3 members was sufficient in pretty much all cases where BP actually pulled it off.

 

[Heysup]

First of all, not to mini mod but I would warn you against repeating arguments like Fletchling vs Torchic. It's done, get over it already imo. You have confusing arguments, both trying to show its broken and not at the same time. Either way, I don't think it's helpful.

Replay #1 is the best thing I've ever seen.

Replay #2 you posted someone playing like shit but you just wanted to post a win. Ok maybe that was an ad hominem attack, but my main point is that he played horrible and sat there hitting you with non STAB Energy Ball while you set up.

Replay 3: Me vs Heysup http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-218311004

While it ends slightly early, since I had to leave, at that point it was won. Even in the base case scenario, with him having a CM Spritzee, I can outboost him and he can't wear me down fast enough with Gastly due to being locked into moonlight. Barring hax, it was won, but once again because of prediction. If Heysup had used Volt Switch on turn 8 to bring in his gastly then he would have won been able to kill pretty much my entire team without being able to boost special defense.

On the other hand, these replays should show that if a nerf to FullPass is needed (big if), then BP would need to be reduced to 2 members per team. 3 members was sufficient in pretty much all cases where BP actually pulled it off.

1) I made a stupid mistake and 2) You still certainly lost that game.

turn 1, Moonlight - switch to Gastly
turn 2, Moonlight - Substitute
turn 3, Moonlight - Shadow Ball (16 min). Munna @ 9 HP. Gastly behind substitute.
turn 4, Stored Power? Breaks Sub. Moonlight? I can spam Sludge Bomb and outdamage that and Mienfoo can't safely switch into that even with max SpD even if you BP. If I get really unlucky with rolls and poison, I can always rinse repeat with Abra and your Munna is at 9HP this time. (I also have Psychic on Gastly but for the sake of argument, we can assume I'm standard).

Or I could go to Chinchou and Twave, Volt Switch to Abra and Encore again (since I'd be faster) and make you struggle or switch out.

Dramatization: Lets say you Stored Power. Munna, along with your credibility, is at 0%.

 

[Sweep]

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

Not in the slightest. I play pretty much any playstyle and haven't found a single one that Baton Pass can victimize from a match-up standpoint. On Stall, you're gonna run a phazer (nice for Bulk Up and Dragon Dance mons), and can easily fit a Dark type like Pawniard or something to destroy the mediocre at best Natu. LC Stall has an easier time dealing with Natu than OU does handling Espeon, that's for sure. Balance can fit other Dark types, like Purrlion (prankster Taunt or Encore is GG for Baton Pass), still sometimes carries phazers like Whirlwind Hippo, and Taunt users like Mienfoo are not rare in the slighest. Offense has priority like Fletching, Zigzagoon, Sucker Pawniard, Aqua Jet mons, and other ways to overload Torchic and company. It does take a little effort to make sure your teams are not vulnerable to baton pass, but not a whole helluva lot. Even if the BP user gets a good team match-up, they still have to execute their gameplan to perfection and pray to Allah they do not get haxed.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

I don't enjoy facing Baton Pass, it's match-up based and rarely hard to beat. Yes, i guess, but it's not miserable by any stretch of the imagination, just slightly annoying.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

No way, it isn't common enough for casual players to be wary of it and not many experienced players are too worried about it.

4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it?

Complex ban Baton Pass and Magic Bounce (Natu) on the same team, I do NOT advocate this, but if a nerf is somehow voted on this it what I would do as (bad) stall builds that cannot handle Stored Power Natu can potentially lose at team preview. Quick passing in general is healthy and viable in practically any metagame.

note: i mean baton pass and Natu on the same team, NOT on Natu

 

[Yagura]

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

Not in the slightest. I play pretty much any playstyle and haven't found a single one that Baton Pass can victimize from a match-up standpoint. On Stall, you're gonna run a phazer (nice for Bulk Up and Dragon Dance mons), and can easily fit a Dark type like Pawniard or something to destroy the mediocre at best Natu. LC Stall has an easier time dealing with Natu than OU does handling Espeon, that's for sure. Balance can fit other Dark types, like Purrlion (prankster Taunt or Encore is GG for Baton Pass), still sometimes carries phazers like Whirlwind Hippo, and Taunt users like Mienfoo are not rare in the slighest. Offense has priority like Fletching, Zigzagoon, Sucker Pawniard, Aqua Jet mons, and other ways to overload Torchic and company. It does take a little effort to make sure your teams are not vulnerable to baton pass, but not a whole helluva lot. Even if the BP user gets a good team match-up, they still have to execute their gameplan to perfection and pray to Allah they do not get haxed.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

I don't enjoy facing Baton Pass, it's match-up based and rarely hard to beat. Yes, i guess, but it's not miserable by any stretch of the imagination, just slightly annoying.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

No way, it isn't common enough for casual players to be wary of it and not many experienced players are too worried about it.

4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it?

Complex ban Baton Pass and Magic Bounce (Natu) on the same team, I do NOT advocate this, but if a nerf is somehow voted on this it what I would do as (bad) stall builds that cannot handle Stored Power Natu can potentially lose at team preview. Quick passing in general is healthy and viable in practically any metagame.

I agree with some parts of this post but there are two points that I find kinda wrong: the first is that you say that we should complex ban Baton Pass and Magic Bounce on Natu when they're actually incompatible on it and some may say that Natu can fit itself in BP teams without BP but tbh that will break the basis behind the team and will just stop the chain and if you get forced out you won't be able to BP your boosts and you'll have to start over the boosts so other Stored Power mons are way better such as Munna. The other point is that you're implying that Pawniard is a good answer to Stored Power mons as it's immune to the move, that can be right but keep in mind that these mons usually have some Defense boosts stacked up meaning that Sucker Punch won't do much damage (Sucker Punch from Pawn does 32%-48% to +2 Defense Munna and 24%-32% to +4) and these mons can hit it with HP Fighting.

 

[boo836]

tazzie: nobody has ever said it's good lol

I think this betrays the dishonesty of the pro-nerf/ban argument. I don't want to single Tazz out, because I know a lot of people who nominated Baton Pass share similar thoughts. A lot of these people seem to be under the impression that Baton Pass' presence in LC is unhealthy. I don't understand where this comes from, since Baton Pass isn't considered a "good" playstyle, isn't centralizing, and isn't influenced by outcomes independent of the players' decisions. A lot of these arguments about being "matchup based" purposefully ignore that teams of any archetype have some means of beating it. It isn't exactly a stretch to place Haze/phazing/taunt/encore/offensive pressure on a team, especially considering that many common Pokemon carry or are checks to Baton Pass. Even if it were "matchup based", that wouldn't be a reason for a ban, it would be a statement on the poor condition of the meta.

There isn't really a legitimate reason to ban Baton Pass, it's just a bunch of players unwilling to adapt/ build decent teams.

 

[Celestavian]

I'd also like to add that I have not built a team with either Taunt or Encore since Gen 5, and have never used Haze/Clear Smog/Roar and the like at all. Offensive pressure, by itself, is in most cases sufficient to stop Baton Pass teams that I have fought over the years. Naturally, that only works for offensive teams, so if you are a more stall oriented player, you should really consider not playing stall. Alternatively, Taunt and Encore and that stuff work, but I do highly encourage following my first suggestion.

 

[Gloom]

for what it's worth, i will say that all the arguments in this thread kind of changed my viewpoint. i still feel like it wouldn't do any harm to limit bp to 3 pokemon or less, but the points people made are pretty solid.

 

[rhydonphilip]

1) Is Baton Pass broken?
(YES unhealthy but not broke*see question 2)well the main reason why i wanted to suspect it is not because it's broke it's just irritating to do teambuilding (what it shouldn't be forcing in the first place)for something like that or just get a boring cycle of attack predict the switch into natu the def passer, predict into the special sweeper who mostly are natu's and it's irritating to see things like this actualy work.
There are multiple ways to deal with it but not all are common or viable (dragon tail,wirlwind) roar, prankster taunt/encore work fine dealing with most also setting up your self is very nice (even normal building can (rarely)work)however not all teams run these moves and i think it's an unhealthy chunk that is already fairly old in LC it self to sutch an extend people have evolved around it rater then against it.
Most people don't run 2 baton passers (not counting the 4-6 chainers what are the main subject of batton pass teams)while in reality we aren't even abusing the battonpass potentials yet , passers like meinfoo and torchic are the most common once i see right now.I almost never see both of them used (mainly because mienfoo is better offencive anyway but still it has amazing use to be combo'd with this potential).
2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?
*It's irritating but uncommon(it's more commonly used as momentum then actual passing simalar to u-turn/volt switch) so it's not the biggest worry to force teambuilding sadly though you should be running taunt meinfoo, encore or taunt on somethign and almost always be able to preserve this taunt poke BUT even if you predict things correctly you often don't even get the chance to break the chain by killing 1 poke(236+ Atk Mienfoo Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 116 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO just AN example of what i mean(not the bets but it's one). I my self have allot of luck facing these teams and they do kinda let crit's happen often because you are not attacking exept if you have set up enough so it does have a natural ballence to it, this doesn't make it more fun though it's still sad that this strat works against most low ladder people and even some high ladder people.
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
No, like i mentioned it's not broke it's unhealthy and old at that yet now things are more setteld it should be re-put into concideration of banning it and i would actualy agree with it mainly because of the majority of people and my personal vision what i would understand why people want it gone i would join those people. so again.
4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it?
Now this is the question ,I would say baton pass clause to 3 pokes ,3 would eliminate these main subjects the 4-6 poke chain teams.

 

[Justintown11]

This is late but to be perfectly honest there really isn't much to say about baton pass' place in the metagame as a whole let alone discuss the merits of its negative presence enough to truly discuss how objectively "broken" it could ever possibly be, which is fairly representative of how many people within this thread are outright dismissing the conversation at all.
To be perfectly honest, I don't think anyone would be talking about baton pass unless for it were that during the suspect test someone who is charge of updating Pokemon Showdown was simply misinformed of how Natu learns Baton Pass and receives the Magic Bounce ability. In short, Magic Bounce + Baton Pass Natu is simply not a legal moveset and during the time frame while on the simulator when it was people had the bright idea of trying to use and it turned out that with that combination gave the strategy more of a leg to stand on.
1) Is Baton Pass broken? I don't mean to rude but losing to baton pass is really only excusable for bland offensive teams that for some reason decided not to use a setup sweeper not named Pawniard. The strategy simply flops to most forms of its counterplay. Taunt, whirlwind, encore, haze/ clear smog, setup sweepers most, if not all, teams should have because these types of pokemon are necessary towards eliminating strategies that go beyond using a squad of six pokemon that all have four attacking moves and none of them, especially having anything that can boost one's own stat modifications faster than Baton Pass, aren't particularly demanding on the teambuilding process as they still usable to most if not all other team archetypes.
2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun? Perhaps, these types of strategies can throw off those who are newer to the metagame, but as players get better it's clear to see that Baton Pass isn't really giving them issues
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup? If #2 is true then yes, someone out there is being discouraged from playing Little Cup but to be fair, odds are those kind of people would be pushed out of a lot of metagames and I don't we need to cater towards that crowd.
4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it? Limiting the number of members a team may have knowing Baton Pass by some amount.

 

[Rowan]

Discussion over, gg

apt-get didn't make any attempt to post anything in this thread so he's off council for activity issues.

perma council:
fatty
Goddess Briyella
Heysup
Yagura
QuoteCS
Corporal Levi
OP

rotaters:
Hawkstar
Mambo
Merritt
kingmidas
Cheek Pouch

pm votes to me and macle + a short description of reasoning (no need for any essays)


you can vote 'no ban' or 'nerf/ban' or something. if nerf/ban wins, then we'll discuss how it shall be nerfed
FUCK ARTEMIS FOWL DIDN'T EVEN GET REQS, SORRY OUR BAD

 

[Rowan]

fatty Goddess Briyella OP Mambo Merritt pls do this within the next 24 hours or something

 

[macle]

Baton Pass is not banned / nerfed. 10-2

OP

no ban

A Baton Pass clause would be completely unnecessary. The only time BP has reasonable success is when the user is facing an inexperienced or unprepared player. Any team archetype can easily prepare for Baton Pass in a wide variety of ways that are all effective outside of countering BP such as Taunt, Encore, Whirlwind, or an appropriate setup sweeper. Even if someone decides to not incorporate these things into their teambuilding, the match can still be won if they get the lead matchup correct. Baton Pass is so easily accounted for as a strategy and has an awful matchup against any team that has done so. Against experienced players, Baton Pass is generally ineffective and can only be used as a tournament strategy to punish somebody who does not consistently and properly account for it.

mambo

no ban

Baton Pass is annoying, but that's about it. Requiring a team to run a form of move control (Encore, Taunt) or boost removal / phasing (Haze, Whirlwind, Roar) isn't a huge nuisance as most common Pokémon have access to these moves and they are easily splashable onto a variety of sets. The argument of a bad matchup is just running into a BP team while using a team without any of the aforementioned moves, but even then you still have a shot at winning as long as you play the match well and can set up alongside your opponent. The most broken part of BP is how people generally treat it as a joke and don't think about the moves they make and how they could possibly result in being swept by a +6 / +6 / +6 / +6 / +6 Munna.

bri

no ban

It's not even close to suspect-worthy and is a rather poor playstyle when the entire team or a majority of it carries the move. This strategy is easily beaten by tactics that players should carry to deal with more important things in the game anyway, such as using Taunt to stop hazards and stall in general.

fatty

no ban

i don't feel i need to go into some long dissertation on whether bp is broken or not, mostly due to how this entire suspect mostly sorted itself out by itself. it's been very clear throughout that the initial suspect of bp was misguided from the start, and the select group of bp bandwagoners weren't completely serious about it anwyways. nevertheless, bp isn't broken in the slightest. it relies on such a narrow minded win condition, one that is blatantly obvious from the get go to the opponent, that once broken or inhibited, leaves the user hopeless to gain footing within a match. there are also so many natural bp breakers built into every serious team (set uppers, encore, taunt, knock off) that it's hard to even find a matchup that bp can even easily take advantage of. if all else fails, opposing players can more often than not still fish for crits to reasonable success, while although not reliable, happens to break chains more often than not. in short, bp is simply too unreliable, especially within a metagame as fast paced as lc, to prove to be any real consistent problem on the ladder or in tournaments.

merrit

no ban

Baton Pass, as a playstyle, has some incredibly exploitable weaknesses, especially by players who know how to deal with it. Although it can be overwhelming if a chain builds up and the opposing player lacks a check/counter, it is quite possible to stop the chain from setting up in the first place. Fullpass is also reliant on luck, as a single poorly timed critical hit or a miss can result in complete failure. Overall Baton Pass is far from being broken, but is actually sub-optimal.

heysup

no ban

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/suspect-discussion-baton-pass.3532532/#post-6103840

That post also links to another more elaborate post.

Algorithmic victories, losing to most common threats, only forcing 50/50s approximately similar to every other team are all reasons why BP is not even good, nevermind ban-worthy.

km

no ban

Baton pass is a very trend of the month kind of strategy, a hidden gem only realized suddenly and rather abruptly became "feared" until people realized how straight forward stopping it truly is. While people may say it can win matches solely on matchup, a feat that can happen with nearly any playstyle, albeit even fewer a chance than maybe the 5% chance BP has of that occurring. Its formula may have some variables to shake the play through but the strat stays the same and thats where the issues arise. Moves like taunt that can kill the momentum of the chain or set up sweepers like fletchling can simply overwhelm the standard BP builds from the start and phazing/encore from good mons can ruin it at any time because WW vullaby is immune to stored power and cottonee has access to priority encore. Theres just so many common mons like tauntfoo, drilbur, fletchling, gastly or onix that can wreck havoc on a BP team. Frankly if people consider it a threat run teams less weak to it.

hawkstar

no ban

Baton Pass, in any shape or form in Litle Cup, is not broken, not even enough for me to recommend nerfing it. Torchic-based QuickPass is the most threatening way to use Baton Pass, and even then, there are way too many checks to consider it broken. Taunt, Encore, and other support moves, as well as just plain hitting hard can all stop Baton Pass in its tracks, and the Speed boosts from Torchic don't stop priority attacks, of which there are too many for any one sweeper to resist all of them. Full Baton Pass is gimmicky at best, and unlike Swagger gimmicks of olden times, it doesn't take control out of the hands of the player and put it into the RNG. It's an all-or-nothing strategy that only works low/mid ladder without getting lucky, which any team can do. Baton Pass is not worth banning or nerfing, and is fine the way it is.

quote

no ban

I vote to not ban or nerf Baton Pass. The FullPass playstyle is flawed in that the first few turns are 50/50s that the FullPass player forces upon the match instead of simply trying to gain momentum or put on pressure. Gothita and Torchic are the only two Pokemon ever used as leads for the team type and that's easy to play around with either Taunt/Encore, a phazing option, or simply putting offensive pressure on your opponent. QuickPass is generally the preferred playstyle but is perfectly balanced because of the possibility of leaving the receiver exposed to a hit or set-up from the opponent.

cheek pouches

no ban

It is a playstyle too reliant on not missing moves such as will-o-wisp, hoping your opponent doesn't have chain disrupters such as Purrloin or Cottonee, wishing they don't get hit by a crit, and wanting few if any wallbreakers on the team. It takes just as much skill to win with Baton Pass chains as it does with anything else, not like Swirlix where you set up once and sweep. No point in banning something not broken, no point in nerfing something that appears in 1% of high ranked battles.

yagura

nerf bp

If you don't have something that can safely deal with a full Baton Pass team early-game such as a Taunt or Encore user you'll have to use offensive pressure to go through it early-game but even then the first mon in the chain, Torchic, will be able to force its way through especially if the person that is using it have enough competitive knowledge, and if you fail on dealing with it early-game you'll be forced to go through a ton of 50/50s in order to have a chance in winning which is just frustrating especially for people who can't keep on making the right plays constantly. However, this doesn't mean Baton Pass is broken and means that it should be banned, there are viable strategies that include it such as QuickPassing and is just a useful move in general, so nerfing it will be the best idea

corporal levi

nerf bp

I believe that Baton Pass deserves a nerf despite it not being broken, because against teams that lack one of the handful of specific methods required to consistently put it in check, it tends to snowball out of control very easily, resulting in matches that are usually decided on turn one based on lead match-up coinflips, thus removing strategic play from the equation and rendering the archetype uncompetitive.