Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[KrazyKoopa95]

Can we please have a tera suspect test. Ban it or restrict it! The amount of bullshit prediction/luck you need to have to beat Tera is insanse. I literally went up against a H-Liligant with Gholdengo. It switched out & I thought it would mostly like be Tera Ice. Once it Started to Set Up Victory Dance, I had my Gholdengo in to wall it completely. Turns out, it is Tera Ghost with Terablast……

the problems with Tera are many…..

1- Not only can people abuse 1 of the 18 types to change its Pokemon into a better defensive typing, hence when you go for a move that should kill your opponent, they completely tank it & you get punished instead. Trying to predict which Tera & which mon will Tera turns this game into a complete gamble.

2- Terablast is a bullshit move. There are many Pokemons who are balanced due to lack of coverage. Terablast literally invalidates that completely…. Logically, Volcarona cannot do anything against Pokemons like Dirge or Tran. Same thing could be said about H-Liligant against Dirge & Gholdengo. There are many examples, but Tera completely invalidates that. The fact that Pokemons like Tran can fall to Volc thanks to Terablast Ground/Water or Gholdengo & Dirge can fall to H-Liligant thanks to Terablast Ghost is bullshit!

Tera in general is really unbalanced offensively & defensively. You have to get so lucky in this meta. Otherwise, a wrong prediction might change the whole outcome of the game….

 

[Crimson Chris]

Can we please have a tera suspect test. Ban it or restrict it! The amount of bullshit prediction/luck you need to have to beat Tera is insanse. I literally went up against a H-Liligant with Gholdengo. It switched out & I thought it would mostly like be Tera Ice. Once it Started to Set Up Victory Dance, I had my Gholdengo in to wall it completely. Turns out, it is Tera Ghost with Terablast……

the problems with Tera are many…..

1- Not only can people abuse 1 of the 18 types to change its Pokemon into a better defensive typing, hence when you go for a move that should kill your opponent, they completely tank it & you get punished instead. Trying to predict which Tera & which mon will Tera turns this game into a complete gamble.

2- Terablast is a bullshit move. There are many Pokemons who are balanced due to lack of coverage. Terablast literally invalidates that completely…. Logically, Volcarona cannot do anything against Pokemons like Dirge or Tran. Same thing could be said about H-Liligant against Dirge & Gholdengo. There are many examples, but Tera completely invalidates that. The fact that Pokemons like Tran can fall to Volc thanks to Terablast Ground/Water or Gholdengo & Dirge can fall to H-Liligant thanks to Terablast Ghost is bullshit!

Tera in general is really unbalanced offensively & defensively. You have to get so luckyin this meta. Otherwise, a wrong prediction might change the whole outcome of the game….

Pretty sure there will be some sort of Tera survey and test after whatever tournament is happening rn. Could be misremembering what Finch said about that though.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I expect zamazenta-hero to be unbanned if tera goes entirely.

I don't expect tera preview to solve the issues tera brings and once we get the tera test again I am making sure I can vote full ban on it, mechanic is too much of a mindgame in a singles format, even if we were to have tera preview

 

[Dan Dan]

The same way Baton pass can be banned instead of banning every individual setup move. "Nerfing" via complex bans that don't even address the root

Doesn't compare to baton pass ban at all. If anything banning Baton Pass is more akin to banning Tera Blast instead of every set up move aka Tera.

 

[carbonlifeform]

If we're sharing Zamazenta-H sets, here's mine:

Zamazenta @ Expert Belt / Leftovers / Black Belt
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Stone Edge / Ice Fang
- Ice Fang / Psychic Fangs / Heavy Slam

This is meant to come in mid-to-late game and clean up all that's left of the opposing team or at least tear holes into as many mons as possible, including special attackers. Don't be afraid to switch it out after too many Close Combats, though.

Item and last 2 moves are insanely customizable depending on the team holes you need patched up. Tera Water is not so negotiable, and Zama-H is my preferred Tera target against Rain teams.

Black Belt was better for me to try to seal up an Urshifu-R weakness. Leftovers and Expert Belt depend on whether more opponents think it's ID-BPress or Choice Band on switch-in. As much as I wish I had Life Orb's damage multiplier, Zamazenta-H is meant to brawl and survive, not KO itself early.

Stone Edge was really awesome as a mid-ground into opposing Chien-Pao with Dragapult in the back, and it's still good against Zapdos. Ice Fang helps fix a slight Lando-T weakness for me and also fixes the Dragonite match-up fairly well, but I can tear into Iron Moth and some Iron Valiant and pretend to damage Toxapex with Psychic Fangs. Heavy Slam is good against Enamorus and Iron Valiant, except my best team has Skeledirge and Scarf Sneasler so that's less necessary (it also deals joke amounts of damage to Great Tusk and previously Chien-Pao).

It might be Zama-H's worst set, but it's already attracted useless Taunts and daring Dragapult switch-ins (Specs Pult only 2HKOes and I am willing to KO Pult back with Crunch).

I've tested similar sets, and I'd suggest avoiding 252 Spe. 136 lets you outrun Meowscarada, 152 lets you outrun modest/adamant Pult, and 168 lets you outrun +1 Adamant Dragonite and 2HKO with Stedge. The rest of your EVs can go into HP to give you that bit of extra bulk.

For my part, I've run it to reasonable success with AV in a similar role as a mid-to-late game threat that can blow up a variety of weakened 'Mons with its unique combo of speed, power, and bulk. CC, Crunch, and Stone Edge feel essential, with the fourth move and Tera Type being highly team dependant.

I definitely agree that this isn't an "optimal" set, but every viable set makes every other set better by virtue of the uncertainty it creates and scouting it requires.

S/O to the rando on ladder who inspired me by cleaning up three of my 'mons with their version of this set when I first assumed they were Band and then underestimated what I needed to revenge it because I assumed EBelt and not AV.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Doesn't compare to baton pass ban at all. If anything banning Baton Pass is more akin to banning Tera Blast instead of every set up move aka Tera.

banning Tera blast is more like "only one baton pass user allowed per team" or "you can only drypass with no boosts" - complex restrictions that don't address or fix what the problem is. Banning Tera blast doesn't come close to solving most of the 50/50s Tera brings, it only would nerf offensive Tera on a few mons that have small movepools. A ban on Tera blast would just further empower Iron Valiant since it already has coverage moves to Tera into and nerf stuff like the Galar birds. It's not even close to a solution

 

[Alternator]

banning Tera blast is more like "only one baton pass user allowed per team" or "you can only drypass with no boosts" - complex restrictions that don't address or fix what the problem is. Banning Tera blast doesn't come close to solving most of the 50/50s Tera brings, it only would nerf offensive Tera on a few mons that have small movepools. A ban on Tera blast would just further empower Iron Valiant since it already has coverage moves to Tera into and nerf stuff like the Galar birds. It's not even close to a solution

Can we please, PLEASE, PLEASE use the right words to describe things? It's even important here, because Smogon has a policy to avoid complex bans whenever possible, so calling something a complex ban implies it shouldn't even be an option.

I don't care what people believe vis-a-vis Tera Blast, it is not a complex ban. A complex ban is a conditional ban: If X, then Y is banned.

If Drizzle, then Swift Swim is banned. If Boosted, then Baton Pass is banned.

Tera Blast is a simple ban. We have simple banned moves in the past, like Swagger or the OHKO moves.

 

[tigers jaw]

i don’t understand the focus on tera blast in recent discussion. with the exception of specific pokémon (volcarona, regieleki), tera blast is such a minor part of the problem regarding tera, it’s almost negligible.

the capacity to circumvent checks & counters with an unlimited, albeit very flawed coverage move, is just an offshoot of the general dynamics of tera.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

I legit don’t understand the sheer level of hate towards dire claw. I understand that it’s broken, yes. But the counter play is the same as it was with garganacl. Just use a covert cloak, but with this move you also can just switch in a steel type that’s immune to the move entirely. That’s what we were told to do when garganacl was the top g.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I legit don’t understand the sheer level of hate towards dire claw. I understand that it’s broken, yes. But the counter play is the same as it was with garganacl. Just use a covert cloak, but with this move you also can just switch in a steel type that’s immune to the move entirely. That’s what we were told to do when garganacl was the top g.

The effect of dire claw is far stronger than salt cure (50%, chance of a status is massive), plus sneasler can be stupid fast with the right setup due to unburden, haven't been too annoyed by it but I can see why many think its broken.

 

[viivian]

the difference is that garganacl is almost completely invalidated by substitute and/or covert cloak, and it being so slow makes the former option such a reliable method of counterplay to it. salt cure is weak without the chip damage so running a move or item that shuts that down makes it significantly less of a threat than it would be otherwise. sneasler, on the other hand is harder to shut down with either of these methods due to its raw power in tandem with speed, as well as dire claw being a strong enough move on its own. sure, you shut down dire claw hax with covert cloak but you're still eating a good chunk of damage from a STAB move coming from a pokemon with the same attack stat as garchomp. it's just not the same dealing with sneasler as it was with garganacl

 

[LoseToRU?]

i don’t understand the focus on tera blast in recent discussion. with the exception of specific pokémon (volcarona, regieleki), tera blast is such a minor part of the problem regarding tera, it’s almost negligible.

the capacity to circumvent checks & counters with an unlimited, albeit very flawed coverage move, is just an offshoot of the general dynamics of tera.

I would agree w you 100% if I didn't get cooked by that Tera Fighting Cress using it lol

Having Volc and Leki back would be nice, though.

Also, Pult is a huge abuser of it, not only bypassing Phantom as it's only Ghost STAB, but also gets the STAB + Tera attack boost.

H-Liligant and Iron Moth are the only others that come to mind right now.

But really, as of now I'd prolly pick banning Tera Blast over Team Preview.

Preview just opens a can of worms, and is a "two steps forward, one step back" kinda thing in some ways.

Banning TB lets us get back Volc, Leki, and makes things like Pult and Moth more healthy.

 

[Magcargo]

the difference is that garganacl is almost completely invalidated by substitute and/or covert cloak, and it being so slow makes the former option such a reliable method of counterplay to it. sneasler, on the other hand is harder to shut down with either of these methods due to its raw power in tandem with speed. sure, you shut down dire claw hax with covert cloak but you're still eating a good chunk of damage from a STAB move coming from a pokemon with the same attack stat as garchomp. it's just not the same dealing with sneasler as it was with garganacl

Agreed. Not helping matters is that most of the Pokemon that might want to use Covert Cloak vs Sneaseler like Dragonite and Dragapult desperately need to run other items like HDB + they are bad Garg answers, so cloak is only useful vs sneaseler. Other options like Tera Poison Gholdengo seem more reliable.

That being said, while Dire Claw hax has mattered for me in some games (randomly putting an enemy Dragonite to sleep, my Dragapult randomly getting paralyzed so it couldn't check Zamazenta later, etc.), it seems like in most case, other options like Gunk Shot to blow apart Zapdos, Tera Blast Ground / Fire Punch / Shadow Claw for Gholdengo + other threats are just way better. Fishing for Hax vs some threats like Zapdos (which is also fishing for Hax right back w/ Static) while still being completely walled by Gholdengo isn't great.

EDIT: Did I really say Tera Poison Gholdengo LMAO. I meant Tera Poison Garganacl.

This is why you lay out your thoughts clearly before posting (or just don't post at all in my case lol)

 

[Mega Breloom]

Agreed. Not helping matters is that most of the Pokemon that might want to use Covert Cloak vs Sneaseler like Dragonite and Dragapult desperately need to run other items like HDB + they are bad Garg answers, so cloak is only useful vs sneaseler. Other options like Tera Poison Gholdengo seem more reliable.

That being said, while Dire Claw hax has mattered for me in some games (randomly putting an enemy Dragonite to sleep, my Dragapult randomly getting paralyzed so it couldn't check Zamazenta later, etc.), it seems like in most case, other options like Gunk Shot to blow apart Zapdos, Tera Blast Ground / Fire Punch / Shadow Claw for Gholdengo + other threats are just way better. Fishing for Hax vs some threats like Zapdos (which is also fishing for Hax right back w/ Static) while still being completely walled by Gholdengo isn't great.

EDIT: Did I really say Tera Poison Gholdengo LMAO. I meant Tera Poison Garganacl.

This is why you lay out your thoughts clearly before posting (or just don't post at all in my case lol)

I would say that Scald made a lot of players get used to relly on hax as part of their game plan even if there are way more optimal options, one of the worst moves in mons history and I'm glad it is gone. But yeah, if Sneasler doesn't get the rng on its side then just dies. No gona lie I prefer people runs it because it is way easier to deal with it compared with a Sneasler with coverage.

 

[Fenghuang]

In things like VGC when the rules of each season are made by Game Freak then it doesn't matter, you simply accept it, however here or any other place where the community can decide what can be allowed or what not then it becomes tricky. Powercreep while it is pretty straight foward and it is evident how it works (anybody can tell that Pao is better than Weavile for example), it is pretty subjetive what stuff within the powercreep is too much or what is fine. Greninja was Ubers in gen 6, but just OU on gen7 even if it got a good buff. Basically tell what powercreep is natural and what not is not as easy to tell, Wake for example looked as an uber mon with all those calcs but on paper isn't as bad.

yeah but like, why does it matter? Greninja is too strong for gen6ou but not too strong for gen7ou, what is the harm?

 

[Fenghuang]

Tera Blast is a simple ban. We have simple banned moves in the past, like Swagger or the OHKO moves.

Maybe "complex ban" is the wrong word, but I think that if our options for making tera balanced are "open team sheet and ban tera blast" or "ban tera" one of those is simpler than the other. I actually think I'd prefer the former for gen9ou, but I can see why others disagree (and I'm a terminally 1500s player so really I think better players have a more balanced take probably).

 

[Mega Breloom]

Shamelessly stolen, in which stage are you rn?

 

[awyp]

View attachment 527126
Shamelessly stolen, in which stage are you rn?

I think currently I am in denial, I don't think it will drop, I've seen it quite a bit in the ladder.

 

[June Heat]

View attachment 527126
Shamelessly stolen, in which stage are you rn?

If Chomp drops, but not Iron Treads I'm rioting

 

[Goodstyle]

Has anyone found a way to make Ursaluna work outside of Trick Room? That mon should still be great right? With that bulk, ability, and power, it should still be amazing. I never see it though.

 

[Real Pikachu]

If Chomp drops, but not Iron Treads I'm rioting

Treads has Volt and Spin, it's way better than Garchoke right now.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Maybe "complex ban" is the wrong word, but I think that if our options for making tera balanced are "open team sheet and ban tera blast" or "ban tera" one of those is simpler than the other. I actually think I'd prefer the former for gen9ou, but I can see why others disagree (and I'm a terminally 1500s player so really I think better players have a more balanced take probably).

exactly. If Tera blast is broken and banned thats A move ban. But banning Tera Blast and also adding Tera type at preview because Tera is broken would be a complex ban.

 

[awyp]

Has anyone found a way to make Ursaluna work outside of Trick Room? That mon should still be great right? With that bulk, ability, and power, it should still be amazing. I never see it though.

Screens is very solid, you can also just have Trailblaze and work outside of a dependency on screens / trickroom

 

[Mega Breloom]

Has anyone found a way to make Ursaluna work outside of Trick Room? That mon should still be great right? With that bulk, ability, and power, it should still be amazing. I never see it though.

The meta is so offensive rn so Ursa lack of priority is a big issue, even on screens+trailblaze it is not difficult for an offensive team to stop it. If Zama gets banned and the meta becomes less offense oriented maybe we will see more balance/stall teams that are Ursa's favorite match up outside trick room.

 

[Rootb]

exactly. If Tera blast is broken and banned thats A move ban. But banning Tera Blast and also adding Tera type at preview because Tera is broken would be a complex ban.

No, it's still not really a complex ban. It's more akin to adding an additional rule to the engine, such as how Smogon allows you to accurately determine whether someone is at 76% or 75% after using a substitute.

I don't know how well it'd actually work in practice, but it's definitely a recurring theme with the mons that aren't explicitly too powerful for the tier. Turns out Hidden Power really was a mistake.