Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[ant4456]

Please make an argument to not ban a Pokemon or to unban a Pokemon that does not ultimately revolve around "Ting Lu + Bird + Dondozo hurts my feelings" Mr. Vert, even once

For the record I am against both the offensive and defensive power creep this gen and when I say I want a lot of bans, this includes things like Ting-Lu, who is literally better than most Ubers and is basically absurd in its ability to put up Spikes, phase and do everything defensively. But my hypothetical way of dealing with it is not to unban more Pokemon to deal with the Pokemon I hate it is to actually ban them

Vert your argument most of the time is not that different from the time I saw a pokeaim commenter say "Unban Palkia" back in 2021 with the intent to "add more tools to deal with the metagame"

 

[BijouMode]

Please make an argument to not ban a Pokemon or to unban a Pokemon that does not ultimately revolve around "Ting Lu + Bird + Dondozo hurts my feelings" Mr. Vert, even once

For the record I am against both the offensive and defensive power creep this gen and when I say I want a lot of bans, this includes things like Ting-Lu, who is literally better than most Ubers and is basically absurd in its ability to put up Spikes, phase and do everything defensively. But my hypothetical way of dealing with it is not to unban more Pokemon to deal with the Pokemon I hate it is to actually ban them

Vert your argument most of the time is not that different from the time I saw a pokeaim commenter say "Unban Palkia" back in 2021 with the intent to "add more tools to deal with the metagame"

- Didn't respond to his argument
- Tried to make fun of his points
- Didn't provide justification for your own points

very cool.

 

[TheTraininator]

My take on this is that Darkrai does have some actual potential to be only strong and that I think it should get tested in some capacity, but that there are potentially much higher priority targets that need to get banned first. With Bax gone, the meta needs to stabilize again, and if Manaphy or Ursaluna-BM or Ogerpon-H turn out to be unhealthy additions, they can be suspected or quickbanned as well. Still, even if it has to happen in a DLC2 meta, Darkrai should get a chance to prove its worth. Sometimes it’s hard to prove whether a Pokémon will have a positive or negative impact on a metagame through theory alone, after all.

 

[FuecocoBoi]

Bax is unanimously banned: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/baxcalibur-is-banned-from-sv-ou.3727992/

Bye, bye mr baxcaliber pie
Loaded dice was pretty nice but veil made us all cry
Banned to Ubers up with shamin and Darkrai
singing
I made everything die I made everything die

 

[ant4456]

- Didn't respond to his argument
- Tried to make fun of his points
- Didn't provide justification for your own points

very cool.

Ok, fine.

barely passable bulk

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 211-249 (74.8 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 160-190 (56.7 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Darkrai: 178-211 (63.1 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (needs Timid to even outspeed)
88 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 230-272 (81.5 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 112-133 (39.7 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Dondozo Liquidation vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 102-120 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 130-154 (46 - 54.6%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 148-176 (52.4 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 218-257 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

70/90/90 for a offensive Pokemon is definitely passable and in fact is enough, living most priority moves and being able to setup on a lot of Pokemon, especially defensive Pokemon.

a reliance on focus miss

Vert will make an argument about Great Tusk relying on Focus Miss for Darkrai to beat, but also later mention that Gliscor is checked by Ice Beam Darkrai, which is a good thing. However, Vert fails to realize that the fact Ice Beam is in its toolkit means it actually almost never relies on Focus Miss.
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 668-788 (153.9 - 181.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 336-396 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 336-396 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 336-396 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes
etc.

a singular 80BP stab option

Dark Pulse STAB is not bad at all and comes with a nasty flinch chance that has made Pokemon like Toxapex in the past quiver, as it is a much less reliably Specs Greninja check when it is rolling a 20% every single time. It's also a type that, like Ghost, has few resistances. There is only one defensive Fairy Type in the tier pre Tera, and that is Clefable, which is already struggling but even assuming it gets off the ground, Sludge Bomb. The other offensive Fairy Types die to unboosted Sludge Bomb with minimal chip) Enamorus, or just dies (like Iron Valiant)
252 SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 242-286 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 306-360 (105.8 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 220-260 (55.8 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 440-518 (111.6 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 312-368 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
even if it goes SpDef, Clefable doesn't even OHKO with Moonblast FYI
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 216-254 (76.5 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

spammed towards the end of home & OLT swiss:

most of these will be outdated with things such as Tornadus T, Clefable and Gliscor adding to defensive cores, but in general, let's actually look at these.
For starters, Ting-Lu cannot switch into Darkrai clicking Nasty Plot because it will lose.
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 252-298 (49 - 57.9%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 127-151 (45 - 53.5%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO
Let alone if Ting Lu has any chip or takes hazard damage.
Secondly, the only other Pokemon that can reasonably take on Darkrai in any of these teams are Tinkaton, Blissey and a Tera Fairy Pokemon surprise KOing it back. That's not good considering, despite what Vert says, Tinkaton is not a very good Pokemon, and a lot of its utility has been outclassed with the new distributions and Pokemon.

this is even assuming that cores will stay similar, things with Clefable Gliscor Torn T types die way harder

due to how sketch it can be coming in hard on gholdengo's make it rain or dondozo's body press for example

this is true but why would you switch in your setup sweeper like that, and you have already established something I agree with, Life Orb is ass. Defensive Gholdengo on some teams with little to no Spa Investment it can more reliably switch into Make It Rain, but otherwise you can still use it as a one time check to Gholdengo, which actually contradicts another point you make

gholdengo is another nasty mafucka so having another check / way to force it to defensive tera would be dope

sure but it can rarely actually switch in, and again, Gholdengo can just Tera Fairy or whatever; with Tera around Gholdengo is not a Pokemon it wants to even be a one time check to

slowking-g, all which commonly run thunder wave. the latter often runs colbur berry

sure if it is running twave and colbur berry but other sets get smashed 2HKO'd easily while needing a Sludge poison to 2HKO itself

lastly choice specs could be a nice middle ground of both worlds,

don't agree whatsoever honestly, HDB Nasty Plot is probably what would be used, but you want it to go Specs because that'd probably be the most managable set with Darkrai having the most prediction required. But truth is, just like arguments about how "Volcarona will check the brokens", people will play lame and run NP HDB and not use it in the ways you want as a check to a lot of threats. It will just become a new big offensive threat that pushes teams towards higher centralization.

'mons we already have such as toxapex, ogerpon-water, clodsire, heatran, moltres, tinkaton (was good pre-DLC), hoopa-u, zamazenta, sneasler, kommo-o, specially defensive rotom-w, stall blissey...

falling off,
ogrepon water not sure
clodsireis mid
heatran has fallen off and
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Heatran: 192-226 (49.7 - 58.5%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
still isn't the best answer
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Moltres: 216-255 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
this is even worse because heatran can at least do leftovers protect and stall magma stormdamage making it pretty unlikely, moltres is just not a good answer
tinkaton is a good answer but not common or that good anymore, if not then that is true
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 144-169 (39.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
this is true if its AV and not chipped, but also is falling off and likely to be UUBL once again
zamazenta relies on being like CB and darkrai doesnt tera
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasler: 243-286 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasler: 243-286 (80.7 - 95%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Kommo-o: 372-438 (105 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Rotom-Wash: 186-220 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
stall Blissey is true but only fits on stall

i believe boots darkrai will challenge us to play more creatively instead of mindlessly throwing out our static/flame body 'mon at a threat and praying for a proc.

special attackers are easier to spam and just throw out attacks and I am surprised you do not know this already. In the grand scheme of Pokemon balance, moves wise physical Attacks have higher BP with bigger drawbacks and more checks, as Swords Dance is more common making Physical Attackers generally harder to check defensively, with better widespread coverage. Special Attackers usually have Calm Mind, a one boost a turn setup move that is mostly helpful against Special Attackers only, and have lower BP moves that benefit from spamming (flinch, lower spdef, inflict status, etc.)

if your goal is to stop mindless playing then giving us a Nasty Plot sweeper with those stats and those coverage moves is not your best option

this is also factoring tera. but if a tera ban was to happen i don't think this shit would even be A+ rank tbh

I somewhat kinda maybe agree, Tera definitely pushes it over the edge though, but also stuff will rely on surprise Tera to even beat it often at the same time

this test would have to come after DLC2 stabilizes as it will be less likely to be a "temporary metagame," along with the introduction of new priority, more speed control, and a wider array of dex additions to amplify its 4MSS.

you sound very hopeful but I really doubt this will actually be the case

my opinion: test Darkrai because it is funny, and then ban it

 

[KamenOH]

So who takes bax role in veil teams now ? It’s a lot of viable or at least interesting. Manaphy and Hearthflame obviously split co-star duties now but I could see mons like Kommoo, Roaring moon, garchomp all getting a shot at beings one of the new top breakers

Alolaslash or Arctibax

 

[Storm Zone]

Okay so i need to discuss darkrai for a bit.
There are a couple factors i took into consideration while voting on darkrai and why i believe it should be given a chance:

- First thing is its low bulk, people are so quick to say how much priority is in this meta, and darkrai is extremely(speed) weak to it (no pun intended), people will say tera will make it blow past its counters and priority, but remember no resist is saving darkrai from +2 gambit sucker ohkoing it lategame, or even a banded scizor tera steel bullet punch. Its almost as frail as meowscarada btw so a bloodmoon vacuum wave wud force tera or ohko it.

- Second thing is its speed tier, now darkrai has an amazing speed tier and this gen has always felt like its missing a middle grounds in terms of speed tiers, for example, zama and pult are so far up, then theres meowscarada > greninja > cinderace like 15 base points lower, darkrai gives a solid 125 to utilize, and a decent resist to ghost which can function as speed control with scarf if necessary, and it would be splashable as a special attacker or breaker which adds to the quality of team archetypes this gen.

- Its offensive stat is what people really complain about, the calcs, the coverage etc, but there are other pokemon remaining in the tier that is more consistent and has similar stats and nobody seems to have a problem with them, pult, iron moth, valiant , enamorus, just to name a few and no1 thought those were broken, we saw similar stats on the physical side with zamazenta hero where everybody wanted to quickban it, but it turned out to be mid at best, this is why we cant just assume that darkrai is broken based off its stats and a 50% accurate move, dark void, by that logic, 60% acc hypnosis valiant dominates this tier, we need to stop bringing un necessary logic to the forefront, especially with a pokemon i feel is weaker than some of the top dogs in this metagame.

- Its typing defensively is that of umbreon, many many threats can just kill it and abuse its typing, moonblast val, mach punch conk/vacuum wave bloodmoon, hell even a terad gholdengo can defeat it, it would not hurt to attempt to adapt to it as we adapted to zamazenta and walking wake quite nicely , pure dark is also just not good, u die to lando u turn, etc, if it becomes problematic , we can ban it, but i said that about zama and it wasnt problematic, atleast give it a chance to fare vs the metagame, we gave kingambit a fair suspect and it is way more powerful than darkrai will ever be, kingambit had stayed in ou, so we know the power creep is enough offensively and defensively to handle darkrai.

- I can list lots of checks and counters:

1. Iron valiant
2. Enamorus and Its therian form
3. Unaware clod which stall alrdy uses
4. Blissey
5. Dnite
6. Dragapult
7. Zamazenta
8. Tera kingambit
9. U turn landorus T
10. Scream tail with tera and cm
11. Scarf meowscarada
12. Haze toxic pex
13. Garg with cure protect (yes ive actually seen this 1v1)
14. Weavile
15. Any scarfer ever that can hit harder than zeraora lol


- People are saying life orb will break it, life orb in this metagame is arguably the worst item to use at the moment, so much priority, hazards, and teras running around, helmets too, u are asking to be chipped , i dare anybody to slap a life orb on any offensive mon in this meta and win consistently, there will be high difficulty, so darkrai needs to sacrifice its longevity(that it didnt even have) to die quicker in like 2 turns after a big hit that might not even kill the target.

- Its almost abilityless, to activate its ability it has to hit a 50% move and pray it lasts more than 2 turns to get any leverage with this ability.

- It checks some threats that people are saying is unhealthy in this metagame, aka gholdengo, and a booster consumed valiant, enamorus too, just a decent offense cleaner overall , and a great presence to make things healthier in the metagame while also having a niche itself.

I say lets at least give this thing a chance to shine in OU, just like we did zamazenta.

 

[Eeveeto]

Darkrai might not be broken (and same for Shaymin-S in a no Tera meta and No Serene Grace/No Coverage), but thing is, Darkrai is a big threat. We don,t need more big threats that polarize the Meta by preying on Balanced teams. It was different with Zamazenta, who mainly destroyed offense (best playstyle anyway) while not being that good vs Balance and straight up being bad vs more defensive teams (except with the good set Band, but few people actually use it). Darkrai is very different and will just exarcebate the current problem with offensive teams, its one more big threat hard to check. In a No Tera meta (which I don,t want), I would support the testing of Darkrai, Shaymin and even Arceus-Bug, right now I don,t see any reason for which it could improve the Meta, unlike Zamazenta.

Off topic: Alolan Sandslash needs 8 turns of Snow, 5 are not enough for him. Its for sure not replacing Bax, it just might make Snow (different from Veil) teams viable. Weavile might be the Mon you guys need, with Knock Off its again a legit threat despite having problems with threats like Dondozo, opposing Alolan Ninetales, Poliwrath and Kingambit (can use Low Kick at least for this one).

 

[Tio Chico]

So who takes bax role in veil teams now ? It’s a lot of viable or at least interesting. Manaphy and Hearthflame obviously split co-star duties now but I could see mons like Kommoo, Roaring moon, garchomp all getting a shot at beings one of the new top breakers

set

Cetitan @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Slush Rush
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Ice Spinner
- Tera Blast
- Earthquake

Definitely not The Replacement, but I'm having some success/fun.
It desperately needs Chilly Reception support for more turns with Snow and relies on Tera Grass to beat Water Types.
While things are still a little crazy and unstable, it's worth a try.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

My main issue with darkrai is just the whole concept of its sleep reliance.

60% accurate hypnosis is nothing new, iron valiant can do it too, but with Darkrai its a coinflip if sleep lands, he gets a free nasty plot boost off, and then 6-0s the team.

I just don't see how the same anti-volc users can defend darkrai who pretty much would do the same and tera appropriately to counter revenge killers/priority/get coverage. And I especially can't see how anti-skymin, anti-king rocks, anti-quick claw, etc crowd considers what darkrai does more skill based and less RNG reliant.

Every argument I heard against dropping , which I completely agree with it not dropping, applies to 's hypnosis, and 's iron head bullshit. I don't see why those are even being considered 'legal gameplay' when one isn't and sets the example of how those are not competitive.

It'd be pretty funny if wide lens Darkrai becomes a thing, it can easily muscle past anything put to sleep as long as it lands to begin with.

 

[YubelVT]

GARCHOMP IS SO BACK

FOUR MORE YEARS OF OU

DOWN BUT NOT OUT LET'S GO KING

 

[Wooloomax]

i am not convinced life orb is a good item in modern gens. in SS the only 'mons that often ran it were clefable (magic guard) and weavile; most offensive options such as rillaboom, garchomp, kartana, and blaziken ended up settling with other item choices in leftovers and protective pads as the metagame progressed. in SV i think life orb is even worse as priority has doubled, lowkey tripled in strength. priority distribution is only getting wider now with vacuum wave iron valiant & bloodmoon, grassy glide rillaboom, and next dlc raging bolt. the only 'mon that *commonly* ran life orb pre-DLC was baxcalibur and that was only due to ice body cheating life orb recoil on that amazing mind gaming team.

Life Orb is not a remarkable item but I'd like to point out it currently works really well for Battle Bond Greninja, because it just needs a KO to get all the +1 boosts it doesn't have to risk it's frail bulk to set up on an attack so it has the option to start sweeping at full. +1 and Life Orb is pretty great for getting ranges with super effective coverage while also having his own priority.

 

[weavilesrevenge]

Why is everyone ignoring Weavile as the next premier OU ice type? It got Knock Off back, Crash/Spinner is not Triple Axel but works as Ice STAB and it's a mini-Chien-Pao so it's reasonable that it's going to be used again in OU.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i am not convinced life orb is a good item in modern gens. in SS the only 'mons that often ran it were clefable (magic guard) and weavile; most offensive options such as rillaboom, garchomp, kartana, and blaziken ended up settling with other item choices in leftovers and protective pads as the metagame progressed. in SV i think life orb is even worse as priority has doubled, lowkey tripled in strength. priority distribution is only getting wider now with vacuum wave iron valiant & bloodmoon, grassy glide rillaboom, and next dlc raging bolt. the only 'mon that *commonly* ran life orb pre-DLC was baxcalibur and that was only due to ice body cheating life orb recoil on that amazing mind gaming team. hazard control is also in an awful state this gen which makes the item choice even more questionable in my opinion.

you can post a laundry list of damage calculations regarding +2 life orb darkrai all you want but the same can be said about other threats in our metagame, all of which don't opt for it. for example sneasler has similar offensive stats and can use swords dance + life orb. sneasler unlike darkrai has two stab options: one being 120BP close combat and the other being dire claw, one of the most broken moves of all time. add tera fighting and shadow claw as coverage and a list of damage calculations can show you how this 'mon has no counters bar physically defensive landorus-t. on the special spectrum i'll bring up tornadus-t, whose sole stab at +2 has similar rolls to darkrai's dark pulse because bleakwind storm is 100BP. sneasler and tornadus-t also have actual abilities in poison touch and regenerator unlike bad dreams which has few in-game applications.

in no way am i saying darkrai = tornadus-t / sneasler but if you look past the fact of "omg it's darkrai," it's really not all that. 135/125 offensive stats are nothing new to fairy gens while it has an impractical ability, barely passable bulk, a reliance on focus miss, and a singular 80BP stab option. to give even more context i want to drop a list of the more passive balance, bulky offense, and stall structures spammed towards the end of home & OLT swiss:

View attachment 552808

i'm not convinced dropping darkrai would suddenly fuck up the metagame, far from it in fact. in the case of CTC's balance, life orb darkrai doesn't have many safe entry points due to how sketch it can be coming in hard on gholdengo's make it rain or dondozo's body press for example. even when you do get it in, clicking nasty plot is awkward when 'mons such as dondozo, ting-lu, and specially defensive moltres can trade damage before pivoting dragonite for the revenge kill. speaking of awkward interactions, great tusk, the most used 'mon in the tier (for most of SV), resists both dark pulse + sludge bomb. that means nasty plot darkrai's best move for it is focus miss. because of this your best opportunity for set-up against these structures are vs zapdos, rotom-w, and slowking-g, all which commonly run thunder wave. the latter often runs colbur berry too considering how oppressive sd iron valiant can be. the stall and sneasler teams do not struggle vs nasty plot darkrai bar psyshock variants, which i am not convinced is a good option as fairies such as clefable are slowly reintroduced into the game. i say all of this without mentioning hazard damage by the way, which are notoriously difficult to remove, even more-so now with the introduction of spikes gliscor and ogerpon.


even if you bring darkrai out on something like cinderace for example, life orb dark pulse only does around 67% while it u-turn's out for a sizable portion, handicapping your darkrai when you factor subsequent life orb + hazards damage. because of this and SV's climate, i don't think life orb will be its best set but actually heavy duty boots. a set of dark pulse / focus blast / sludge bomb / ice beam sounds much more likely to be its flagship, being comfortable switching in this hazard heavy climate and giving us a strong, but not overbearing special attacker. darkrai is piss weak without life orb after all; it reminds me of a special zamazenta where it theoretically has coverage for a ton of 'mons, but requires significant support and/or chip to pick up ko's. i am being generous with this zamazenta comparison by the way as darkrai has mediocre bulk and a limited defensive profile. offensively it also wants all of ice beam, psyshock, thunder, taunt, nasty plot, will-o-wisp, and knock off for wider match-up coverage in its 4th slot. dropping sludge bomb and focus miss are non-negotiable for fairy-types and kingambit respectively. lastly choice specs could be a nice middle ground of both worlds, having more longevity than life orb and still keeping the power but this 'mon being locked into dark pulse and non-stab attacks do not worry me at all.

i have seen a lot of players claim darkrai brings no value to the tier. i respectfully disagree and this is not me playing the contrarian. a trait of SV i feel is underdiscussed is how low the speed tiers are compared to SS & SM. zamazenta and dragapult almost always opt for +attacking natures while choice scarf is near non-existent as an item. darkrai's introduction would put more emphasis on speed, reducing the power creep to an extent. booster energy iron valiant is the only relevant outlier when it comes to speed tiers this generation tbh. gliscor is also an S-tier rank 'mon post-baxcalibur ban (imo), extremely oppressive even without roost..... having a solid non-hazard weak ice beam 'mon would be appreciated, similar to m-latias in gen7. gholdengo is another nasty mafucka so having another check / way to force it to defensive tera would be dope. it's not like we're freeing arceus-dark or some shit to accomplish this. to give you an idea of boots darkrai's damage output, ice beam does ~26% to ting-lu while dark pulse barely pushes the 30% range against garganacl. SV not only has an insane offensive power creep but a defensive one too. i also forgot to mention the 'mons we already have such as toxapex, ogerpon-water, clodsire, heatran, moltres, tinkaton (was good pre-DLC), hoopa-u, zamazenta, sneasler, kommo-o, specially defensive rotom-w, stall blissey... which should all be able to soft check it minimum unless it opts to drop ice beam for a fringe option such as psyshock, knock off, or thunder. finally i believe boots darkrai will challenge us to play more creatively instead of mindlessly throwing out our static/flame body 'mon at a threat and praying for a proc.

not only do i think darkrai is fine, but after typing this out i believe it is more balanced than volcarona. yes, i said it. i would expect it to be A+ for the rest of the generation, but not overbearing to the point it needs a ban. this is also factoring tera. but if a tera ban was to happen i don't think this shit would even be A+ rank tbh. maybe A, no disrespect. that said, i would not test it now. this test would have to come after DLC2 stabilizes as it will be less likely to be a "temporary metagame," along with the introduction of new priority, more speed control, and a wider array of dex additions to amplify its 4MSS.

y'know, this post started off so well. i was totally ready to read a dissertation about how life orb as an item has become a lot less worth the 10% per attack in a meta this heavy on hazards, salt cure, and other forms of residual damage, but then you went right into some clownass shit about darkrai being more balanced than volcarona and how speed tiers being reasonable again is a bad thing and theorymonning about how darkrai would totally run boots all the time instead of the items it's good with. sure, because when i think darkrai, the first thing that comes to mind is "offensive pivot". i see darkrai and say to myself, "that thing is sure gonna switch out a lot, i bet", because everyone knows that that's just what nasty plot users do. i'm disappointed that someone with your talent is emitting takes like this

 

[Wapf]

I just came here to say Bax needs quickbanned but y’all were already on it. Thank god, fuck that thing.

Meta is a clusterfuck still. You don’t realize how annoying aurora veil spam is until you have to deal with it nonstop again after a years break.

 

[YubelVT]

Why is everyone ignoring Weavile as the next premier OU ice type? It got Knock Off back, Crash/Spinner is not Triple Axel but works as Ice STAB and it's a mini-Chien-Pao so it's reasonable that it's going to be used again in OU.

scizor bros we're so back

 

[FuecocoBoi]

Why is everyone ignoring Weavile as the next premier OU ice type? It got Knock Off back, Crash/Spinner is not Triple Axel but works as Ice STAB and it's a mini-Chien-Pao so it's reasonable that it's going to be used again in OU.

love how we went from “chien pao is mega weavile” to “weavile is mini chien pao”
how quick we forget

 

[Srn]

I think it's very earnest and honorable that we're thinking darkrai would run tame sets like 4 attacks boots. Vert also thought that people would try to explore magearna's movepool, tera options, and really develop an interesting meta! But you know what happened instead? ppl spammed the most broken cm/shift gear/stored power sets, the mon was overbearing and unreasonable to prep for/play against, and it ended up getting banned. I predict a similar thing will happen with darkrai.

Darkrai @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Tera Blast
- Hypnosis / Substitute

We already know how stupid dark+tera blast fairy coverage can be. Kingambit was the most broken pokemon in the Home meta, and SD/kowtow/tera blast fairy/sucker punch was its most broken set. So really, what solid and flexible counterplay do you think there is to this set? Let's reference storm zone's list

SZ's list of alleged darkrai answers

1) Iron Valiant - Booster Energy works only once, boots darkrai can fit on hstack teams and come in multiple times. After booster is up Ival is toast. Otherwise you need to run awkward sets like choice scarf which love tricking the scarf away to begin with. Booster ival cant even ohko tera fairy darkrai to begin with, and must tera back to survive for 1 turn.
2) Enam-T is mediocre, honestly even regular enamorus is falling off, and it is both slower+easily dies to coverage or +2 tera blast fairy
3) Unaware Clodsire is not splashable in the slightest. We can justify flutter mane in OU if unaware clodsire is so easy to fit on teams. Keep in mind that only Amnesia Toxic is the only really worthwhile set on unaware clodsire nowadays, otherwise you're losing long term to NP recover ghold, tg rest manaphy, etc.
4) Blissey see above (note that both can lose to NP psyshock if darkrai so chooses) only cm stoss is good nowadays.
5) Dragonite's espeed being able to soft rk big threats is once again not a good reason to keep them in the tier. Espeed also worked against chien pao, chi-yu, etc this is not good enough.
6) Dragapult if it decides to lock into specs draco could become hard set up fodder to the above tera fairy set. Lock into shadow ball, and it might stay dark, you are still getting boned. Very unsafe revenge kill.
7) Zamazenta first must be jolly to even outspeed darkrai, which is a very painful drop in power for it. CB sets are ass, which means 4 attacks boots sets must run jolly to even RK, resulting in a painful 339 attack. Your heavy slam, as a result, doesn't even ohko tera fairy darkrai, meaning you need to tera steel too! In order to effectively rk, you are forced to run a pretty sad set.
8) Tera Kingambit (lets assume fairy) must first stay very healthy to avoid getting killed by +2 tera blast fairy AND avoid the hypnosis fish if it IS healthy AND be Iron head, tera blast fairy from kingambit doesn't even kill darkrai from full. Oh and if you kept kingambit healthy but got put to sleep? Bad dreams puts you in range of +2 tera blast fairy LOL abilityless my ass
9) Lando-t is dead after rocks so...are you suggesting we run the scarf set (bad) or the sdef set (outclassed by gliscor now)? Not to mention u-turn on tera fairy could be a free turn for darkrai, but if you eq you just get killed back. Even assuming the shitty scarf set, extremely unsafe rk.
10) Not sure what kind of wack set you're suggesting but CM scream tail will get easily overwhelmed by NP darkrai's raw power and hypnosis fishing, extremely shaky and hardly an answer at all. Feels like a weird set to try and justify altogether with ghold's dominance, never beating blissey/unaware clod, etc.
11) Scarf Meow fell off hard and for good reason, static zapdos and flame body moltres are still in the tier and will still fuck it up. And even if I grant you that it was a solid set in the pre-home meta, a protean u-turn into flower trick doesn't even rk tera fairy darkrai. God help you if it subs+tera fairies as you u-turn.
12) Toxapex has also fallen off greatly with glowking's rise, haze toxic is 1 dark pulse flinch away from complete defeat, and it must also survive the hypnosis fish. If darkrai is sub, then toxic on sub is gg, the best sets are infestation+haze+toxic which can't break sub and eventually you will get flinched. Shaky and not splashable.
13) I'm not sure you can rely on salt cure+protect garg to reliably handle darkrai given that sub will run you over, there is no single type that you can tera into to resist dark/fairy, and even at max sdef you are 2hko'd at +2. Shaky and inconsistent.
14) Bro weavile is a speed tie. Boots will be the only good weavile set moving forward in this hazard centric meta. From a boots weavile, icicle crash can 2hko but low kick does not ohko, so with tera's from both, it is coming down to speed ties. Not a real answer in the slightest.
15) There's a reason so few scarfers are even present in this meta. Offense often can outspeed them with booster moth, ival, etc or can use priority and not care from kingambit, dnite, etc. Scarfers can hardly make a dent in any real fat builds and gholdengo can even block trick attempts. To suggest that scarfers will save you from this darkrai set (when you couldn't name any more viable ones) tells you just how unhealthy this mon will be.

Some calcs for all of the above

Calcs

1) 252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Darkrai: 160-190 (56.7 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (tanks comfortably)
252 SpA Tera Fairy Darkrai Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 404-476 (139.7 - 164.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

2) +2 252 SpA Tera Fairy Darkrai Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 322-379 (111.4 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 242-286 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

7) 252 Atk Zamazenta Heavy Slam (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Darkrai: 226-266 (80.1 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You need tera steel to even safely rk back

8) +2 252 SpA Tera Fairy Darkrai Tera Blast vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Kingambit: 307-363 (76.7 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Darkrai: 197-232 (69.8 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Darkrai: 226-267 (80.1 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

9) +2 252 SpA Tera Fairy Darkrai Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 324-382 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

11) 252 Atk Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Darkrai on a critical hit: 168-198 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Protean Meowscarada U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Darkrai: 55-66 (19.5 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO

12) +2 252 SpA Tera Fairy Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

13) +2 252 SpA Tera Fairy Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

14) 252 SpA Tera Fairy Darkrai Tera Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 308-366 (109.2 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Darkrai: 144-171 (51 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Weavile Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 180-214 (63.8 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I know vert mentioned some other stuff, so lets go over those too.

Vert's list of alleged darkrai answers

Tinkaton will be imo extremely garbage now that gliscor is in the tier, it makes basically zero progress vs it. What are you going to do, encore the spikes? gigaton hammer for 25? knock off the toxic orb it doesn't need any more? One of the biggest reasons to use it at all was its positive MU vs bax and now that it's banned, why would it see any use other than a poor darkrai check? (otherwise unviable mons seeing usage to barely check a top threat is not a sign of a healthy meta btw)
Even assuming it was good the standard set of (gigaton hammer/knock off/stealth rock/encore) does this
0 Atk Mold Breaker Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 148-175 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So darkrai can just stay dark, NP up, fish for hypnosis once or twice, and take its time blasting through it with +2 dark pulse (which can flinch and has a chance to 2hko after bad dreams damage)

Waterpon is slower, so even assuming it can stay healthy and keep its tera to get the +1 sdef boost (remember, this darkrai set thrives on hstack teams, so it will be very difficult to keep waterpon healthy when it cannot hold boots). Without the +1 sdef boost from tera, it gets ohko'd by +2 darkrai dark pulse.
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 186-220 (61.7 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So it can only switch in once AND needs tera AND needs all hazards off AND needs to dodge hypnosis. As shaky as it gets.

Moltres gets run over by +2 dark pulse and must dodge hypnosis, idk where this came from
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Moltres: 216-255 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sneasler is slower and gets flattened by +2 tera fairy blast, so only scarf (bad) or unburden (only works once) are real answers
+2 252 SpA Tera Fairy Darkrai Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasler: 324-382 (107.6 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hoopa cannot kill tera fairy darkrai and gets takes a ton of damage
+2 252 SpA Tera Fairy Darkrai Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 288-338 (79.3 - 93.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Even assuming you can tera fairy back, you must avoid the hypnosis fish and must not take hazard damage. Super shaky.

Heatran fell off hard and idk if it's coming back, not that it was ever an answer
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Heatran: 192-226 (49.7 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 148-175 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage
You need to avoid the dark pulse flinch, avoid the hypnosis fish, and still u get 2hko'd cleanly

Kommo-o? I dont need to show tera fairy blast calcs do I

Sdef rotom-w can tank a hit and t-wave back, but that's assuming you avoid the dark pulse flinch, the hypnosis fish, you don't twave on sub...etc
+2 252 SpA Tera Fairy Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Rotom-Wash: 186-220 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Ting-lu btw
+2 252 SpA Tera Fairy Darkrai Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 336-396 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Not really taking it like a champ either. If it tera's water or poison, dark pulse does 35%...so you need to avoid the hypnosis fish, the dark pulse flinches, not get chipped down by hazards too much, etc.
Best part? your eq isn't even a gauranteed 2hko back
0 Atk Tera Poison Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Darkrai: 127-151 (45 - 53.5%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO

So for the above set on a hstack team, we narrowed down reliable, viable counterplay to Amnesia toxic unaware clodsire, Cm stoss blissey, jolly tera steel boots zama, and espeed dragonite? You notice how tera ghost beats 3 of these? Lmao even greninja started running tera ghost, so we are more like down to 1. Great stuff.

You can all dream about a playerbase that uses cool, creative, balanced sets like 4 attacks boots (lol) but we are in the real meta where players spam whatever broken shit is available to win. The above set is exactly that. You do not need more than 2 attacks and at your own judgement can choose to fish hypnosis and cheese through whatever flimsy counterplay exists.

Every bit of "value" that vert mentioned ice beam darkrai may bring is already here with boots weavile btw.

Does this seem like a reasonable set to prepare for, from the teambuilder? Are you going to have fun hoping that it doesn't land a hypnosis and doesn't get more than 1 sleep turn? Do you really think this darkrai set will make this metagame better?
Please, let's focus on trying to balance this shitshow and not make it worse.

 

[MilkyWay]

y'know, this post started off so well. i was totally ready to read a dissertation about how life orb as an item has become a lot less worth the 10% per attack in a meta this heavy on hazards, salt cure, and other forms of residual damage, but then you went right into some clownass shit about darkrai being more balanced than volcarona and how speed tiers being reasonable again is a bad thing and theorymonning about how darkrai would totally run boots all the time instead of the items it's good with. sure, because when i think darkrai, the first thing that comes to mind is "offensive pivot". i see darkrai and say to myself, "that thing is sure gonna switch out a lot, i bet", because everyone knows that that's just what nasty plot users do. i'm disappointed that someone with your talent is emitting takes like this

My understanding is Vert was saying darkrai would run boots to avoid the chip from life orb recoil + hazards so it could actually survive strong neutral hits + priority, not so it could keep switching in and pivoting. Kinda like how bax would run boots to sweep with dd

Sorry for the one-liner I just thought that was a little unfair

 

[KrazyKoopa95]

How is the meta shaping up to be in top ladder?
Heard Tusk fell off…

 

[658Greninja]

How is the meta shaping up to be in top ladder?
Heard Tusk fell off…

As long as hazard removal is scarce, Tusk will never fall off.

 

[skwinky to the moon]

hey everyone in regards to sun teams, who is the actual better sun setter? i figured its still torkoal due to havign greater utility (rocks, spin, drowsy).

Walking Wake is a staple on that team, i was wondering what else is or some new additions that could run nicely on sun teams. and how to go about stopping iron valiant which seems to be an issue for me when building the team

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

My understanding is Vert was saying darkrai would run boots to avoid the chip from life orb recoil + hazards so it could actually survive strong neutral hits + priority, not so it could keep switching in and pivoting. Kinda like how bax would run boots to sweep with dd

Sorry for the one-liner I just thought that was a little unfair

how would darkrai run boots, it doesn't even have feet. it's got skinny-ass retractable legs but they don't actually end in anything, the boots would just slip off. what it does have are hands—hands that are perfectly suitable for rubbing together while thinking of the nastiest little plots imaginable, and for holding things such as orbs, but not footwear because that would be ridiculous. can you imagine going into battle wearing shoes on your hands? you'd look like an idiot

on a more serious note, i do admit that boots on nasty plot darkrai could potentially be feasible for the reasons you described, but the calcs for life orb make a very convincing argument that it's still worth the chip, and the 4 attacks set that vert suggested is borderline-shitpost level compared to real darkrai sets

 

[Morkal]

Regarding Darkrai - I'm in favor of a retest, but not until the DLC2 meta. I think that Vert Srn and Eeveeto all made great points, but what really resonated with me the most is that right now, despite the possibility of Darkrai being balanced, is what Eeveeto said about "we don't need another big threat to check" right now.

On another note, I've been running this variant of Ogerpon-Hearthflame and it's been doing wonders for my team; with Tera + STAB Trailblaze it's been incredibly easy to start snowballing teams once priority has been taken care of.

Ogerpon-Hearthflame (F) @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Trailblaze​

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Regarding Darkrai - I'm in favor of a retest, but not until the DLC2 meta. I think that Vert Srn and Eeveeto all made great points, but what really resonated with me the most is that right now, despite the possibility of Darkrai being balanced, is what Eeveeto said about "we don't need another big threat to check" right now.

On another note, I've been running this variant of Ogerpon-Hearthflame and it's been doing wonders for my team; with Tera + STAB Trailblaze it's been incredibly easy to start snowballing teams once priority has been taken care of.

View attachment 552973
Ogerpon-Hearthflame (F) @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Trailblaze​

i like the set and i do agree that it seems really easy to snowball with (though ogerpon-hurtsthemeta is easy enough to snowball with running pretty much any set), but do you find yourself missing the damage from, say, power whip or wood hammer instead? especially pre-tera, ogerpon-hippopotamus really likes having a stronger grass move to break through (or force tera on) bulky fire resists like dondozo and toxapex that are comfortable taking hits from most coverage that ogerpon-homeiswheretheheartis runs. seems like this ogerpon-harktheheraldangelssing set matches up better against faster teams, but how are you faring against fatter teams?