Yeah, thats why we should also ban Skeledirge and Landorus-T because they're ranked two sets above Kingambit in the Ubers VR
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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My thoughts on the complaining things:
2/5 It's just old gen tanky lando, but with better recovery. Good knock absorber. Fights tusk as best Ground, but Tusk's more offensive nature makes it very usable. Not broken imo, just annoying. L2P better into it, and don't just throw things at it.
3/5 Strong, but not too potent in an offensive meta.
5/5 Should have been banned in August. Stupid AF reversals, and not Tera reliant as people have stated before. It would be banned even in a tera-less format. Literally only Tusk and Zama wall it right now without tera. With tera... good luck.
5/5 DD acro moon is very potent, and the Sun banded set has little to no switch ins.
5/5 Stupidly powerful. Rock is OK, but the best defensive switch to this is Tera Dragon Dozo... Yeah, QB this please.
2/5 Annoying, but not too viable now, when Waterpon is a thing.
2/5 It's just old gen tanky lando, but with better recovery. Good knock absorber. Fights tusk as best Ground, but Tusk's more offensive nature makes it very usable. Not broken imo, just annoying. L2P better into it, and don't just throw things at it. 3/5 Strong, but not too potent in an offensive meta. 5/5 Should have been banned in August. Stupid AF reversals, and not Tera reliant as people have stated before. It would be banned even in a tera-less format. Literally only Tusk and Zama wall it right now without tera. With tera... good luck. 5/5 DD acro moon is very potent, and the Sun banded set has little to no switch ins. 5/5 Stupidly powerful. Rock is OK, but the best defensive switch to this is Tera Dragon Dozo... Yeah, QB this please. 2/5 Annoying, but not too viable now, when Waterpon is a thing.
What would be the point of a suspect if the likely expectation is that whatever is tested might just be up for a drop in DLC2 anyway?
The only way I could see it actually being impactful is if whatever is tested (if even banned) is not allowed to return on DLC2s release and is instead introduced on a retest. Of the mons listed the only one with enough widespread impact would be Ghold.
A single ban on Moon,Wellspring, Gliscor, Gambit and Manaphy for a few weeks wouldn't change what you're seeing in the meta much if at all.
For the mons...
2/5 Gliscor is fine. Banning it does nothing to solve the hazard imbalance. We have enough mons that can consistently get up multiple layers. Also there can be way more counterplay in play vs this mon. Given how prevalent it is as well as grounds in general, splashed ice moves should see more play. The standard EQ, Spikes,Protect set gets turned into setup fodder by any mon that resists EQ or uses Balloon and clicks sub. Taunt and Encore are also problematic for it. 4/5 Ghold in a vaccum isn't broken but what it does to the current meta has been a point of concern since release and seems to only get worse as more offensive threats are added. Seeing a meta without it should be the ideal course of action as to how to move forward on hazards if necessary. 3/5 Also fine at this point. If you don't know what to do vs this thing at this point you can't play a good lategame or just don't grasp how to beat sucker punch. We have enough resists, sub and encore are problematic for it. It doesn't setup for free... Tera is the ONLY reason this mon is as annoying as it is. 4/5 The booster Tera flying acro set has been broken since release. Knock Off is stonger sure but it was already beating the same mons when it just had Crunch. For whatever reason Band and scarf sets were more popular but DD has always been borderline broken.
3.75/5 I think we look into Booster Energy before we touch any mon that might seem problematic that uses it in a primary set. This item just makes mons that have potential to be problematic more of an issue. Imagine if this item was available to any mon.... 3/5 Worth watching for the Trailblaze set as that would be the only set that really breaks it. Otherwise, as of right now this is a good presence in the meta. It's not fast enough to threaten everything and there are good resists to it's stabs.2/5 Decent mon but too slow to be super consistent at sweeping.Also....a question on Tera. Is there any reason that this shouldn't be the immediately addressed issue after quickbans for DLC2? The mechanic will only get stronger with whatever is introduced in the Indigo Disc and will keep negatively defining the gen. The majority of the player base wants something done on it and at the moment it's just been radio silence on what will be considered for options when it comes to it.
Pushing back the issue until a DLC2 drop to only consider it then would not be a good idea... and just waste more time as the community gets caught up in shiny object syndrome again until we come back around to hear the same arguments and complaints around it.
to make the metagame thousands of people are playing better now...? that is half the point of tiering to begin with
if we wish to apply your logic, we might as well just not tier until every home/dlc is out, which is not the play
I'm sure you get how it feels like a waste of time though. It's not like the release date is unknown or far out. Suspects generally take quite a bit of time and how much impact would you expect this to even have? A better metagame for 2-3 weeks, maybe?
if the suspect makes the metagame better for the playerbase and is something the playerbase wants, we will make it happen -- that is the job
Making decisions for a metagame we still know next to nothing about is nonsensical.
Nothing should be set in stone for the coming metagame, we have no idea how the new additions and mechanic changes will change the metagame landscape.
My thoughts on the complaining things:
Gambit should be gone, but gambit would struggle to get SD up a ton without tera, making it a lot more checkable in a meta without tera by things like zapdos and base Moltres who can beat it if gambit can't tera. Point being, gambit should go but if tera gets banned it 100% should come back here, since a bunch more things can beat it 1v1 if it can't cheese out a swords dance effortlessly like it can right now with all the hard hitting wallbreakers here in a non-tera meta
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Majority of the playerbase also wants action on Tera :)
But to be more serious I'd generally agree in a vacuum but it's not like you should never consider external factors.You wouldn't be saying this if it was 1 week before a new game or dlc release. So what difference does 2-3 make?
Agreed, but what is the point of a test that we KNOW will be reverted a few weeks after?
There is no release date for dlc2, you're making an assumption
Whats the problem with this anyway? You are basically saying you'd rather have no action in a meh meta for 5 weeks than try to have a slightly better meta for 3 of those weeks?
Its not like a suspect requires tons of resources (I think, am not familiar with what goes into setting up a suspect so I could be very wrong here) or makes the game actively worse during the suspect.
Yeah it might be a tiering action that lasts for less than a month but thats still better than the alternative of doing nothing....?
Yeah, my bad. I'd heard a few things that made me assume it was known. Just checked and given what info is out there I'd retract statements on lack of action. Some companies can push winter into Jan as well. I don't assume that for this but yeah...I thought the date was more concrete.
Besides the "make things better now rather than suffer for months" answer, I think it's worth considering the difference in a mon that is banned via suspect of 69% vote (Chien Pao) and a mon that is banned via suspect of 90%+ vote (Ursaluna-Bloodmoon). The shaky ban% vote was the logic used to drop chien pao in the home meta, but that same logic cannot be used to drop Bursa in DLC2 because a ban% vote of 90+ is rock fuckin solid.
If we can suspect things now and get ridiculously high ban% votes, that's progress that won't be undone. Nothing else in this meta is getting banned by such a wide margin, but hey it's the thought that counts :]
No I cannot, because none of those other setters have nearly as easy a time of setting spikes as Gliscor and have a much larger pool of counterplay, or in the case of Wellspring, don't really want to spend a moveslot on setting spikes. Glimmora is also a laughable spikes setter since it's so frail, it literally has spikes and doesn't even run it
Like seriously, Quagsire? Pincurchin? You cannot possibly tell me with a straight face that Spikes would be as dominant with Clodsire, Garchomp, Meowscarada, and Greninja as the best setters as Gliscor the unbreakable Toxic spamming Protect user. Samurott and Tinglu come close to Gliscor and are exceptional over the rest along with Gliscor but there's still a world of difference between their setting prowess and Gliscor's ability to threaten, deny, and take advantage of removal and the limited amount of Pokémon that can actually break it down.
"If we ban one (or three) spikes setter(s) then other setters will just rise up" that's not a problem at all when there's a massive difference in setting prowess
i can almost guarantee it's planned for sometime in mid-late november or early december to get in on the holiday sales rush, but it also wouldn't surprise me if they were to announce it for that time and then go "lmao whoops we fucked up again, we're pushing it back to february, enjoy two and a half more months of baseless speculation on what the 19th tera type does and the distribution of upper hand", then decides in december "oh hey never mind, we need to cash in on holiday sales more than we need to output a finished game, we're releasing it now, probably in the middle of a suspect test because we hate you in particular" and then we have to figure out what the fuck we even do in that scenario (aside from giving up and making our own game)
that explains a lot
i think that if gambit comes up on the chopping block again, most of the "strategic" dnb voters will have learned their lesson and it'll be an overwhelming vote to ban. probably not as wide a margin as bloodmoon, but it might be close because people are really sick of gambit
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Number of Pokémon that learn a move is not relevant when half the ones you're listing are completely unviable in OU, ive heard endless refrains of "removing the 3 best setters won't solve the spikes problem" and yeah that's true if you think the problem with spikes is "there are Pokémon that can get spikes up" rather than considering the turn sinking of setting multiple layers, longevity of setter options, and relationship with hazard removal options. How many Pokémon can set spikes has never been relevant, the viability of setters and removal options is what matters
Source: Glimmora gets spikes, is frequently used as a suicide hazard lead, but never runs spikes because it doesn't live long enough for that to be worthwhile
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Since we're discussing mons that might be on the radar, here are some of my thoughts:
Tera: 5/5. I've been a day 1 hater of this mechanic and feel more and more validated about my stance on Tera as the meta evolves and it proves to be an ever-increasingly problematic mechanic. That said, I don't think this should be on the table for a suspect test until DLC2. Once we have a metagame that isn't gonna be getting crazy huge additions every couple months I think that's the best time to deal with Tera.
: 2/5. This was a lot more problematic in the DLC days, but right now I think Kingambit is more or less fine. Excellent, yes, and extremely dangerous in the lategame, but the tier has more than enough in the way of faster mons capable of eating a Sucker Punch and/or exploiting its massive Encore weakness or slower mons able to keep it in check defensively. I firmly believe Gambit's perfectly reasonable in this metagame and I just don't understand how people are still adamant that this is a 5/5, quickban-worthy mon; there's another physical Dark-type sweeper that's causing far more problems right now.
: 4/5. This mon dropping to UU during the later days of the HOME/pre-DLC1 meta really made people forget how nasty this thing is as far as setup sweepers go. Knock Off gives it some extreme, lasting impact even into the bulkier archetypes that once gave it a little more trouble, since now it can remove Boots and muscle past threats like Dondozo or Tera Fairy Dirge much more easily with hazard chip. It's entirely possible that the meta being so offensively-oriented right now is just making Roaring Moon an issue by proxy, of course, but I think this is overbearing right now.
: 5/5. This mon has a severe, negative impact both on the hazards meta and on the Ground-type meta. The fact that this mon cannibalized the usage of numerous solid mons like Garchomp and Garganacl by stealing some of their niches and is so restrictive that running any Great Tusk that isn't an offensive Ice Spinner variant is throwing should speak volumes about how much of a negative impact it has even on the teambuilding process. I firmly believe this mon is what's making hazards so overbearing right now, rather than Gholdengo.
: 2/5. I won't deny that it has an extreme influence on the hazards meta, but I also feel like getting rid of Gholdengo won't improve the tier in any substantial way. We still have a gross lack of reliable hazard removal: you've got somewhere in the realm of three to five mons tops that can consistently handle entry hazards, courtesy of Defog getting abysmal distribution (it's seriously just... Corviknight, Mandibuzz, and that's it). Corviknight is already the only noteworthy Defogger, Tusk is already the best Spinner, Cinderace is already excellent and will remain excellent with or without Gholdengo, and Maushold (VERY underrated mon, btw) is still a decent mon on specific HO squads. None of this would change if we banned Gholdengo, and we'd instead lose a meaningful defensive presence that the tier would otherwise be sorely lacking.
: 4/5. Scary good mon. Offers an important defensive presence as well, but it's definitely in the realm of being a little overwhelming offensively all the same. I also don't think that this would be better for the tier in a non-Tera metagame; Grass/Water is a really cool defensive typing when combined with a Water immunity, and having a higher chance of losing to an opposing Wellspring while losing a Water immunity altogether isn't really worth the Tera all that frequently. I think it's probably on the problematic side a-la Roaring Moon.
: 3/5. I think it's oppressive on Webs and the relatively rare Veil regardless, but I think the Tera Poison Take Heart+Stored Power set is an absolute demon that, surprisingly, hasn't caught on much on the ladder quite yet.
Overall: if I had absolute power and could ban something in an instant without having to worry about long-term ramifications, I'd probably get rid of Tera as my #1 priority and then see where we go from there, probably axing Wellspring and Gliscor down the line. Now, obviously Tera's still a divisive mechanic and there is a legitimate concern about DLC2 (God knows when that comes out; I don't envy the Council's position here since that's inevitably going to warp discourse around suspects/bans even if it shouldn't) requiring everything bar Tera from being unbanned and probably giving mons like Volcarona a chance as well (hell, maybe even Darkrai would be borderline reasonable in a meta with those power levels), but if the gen were to hypothetically stop right now, that's what I'd do. But at the end of the day, its a shitty position to be in and I think the Council has been doing their best in spite of Gen 9 dropping a big content bomb every few months and changing everything.
Tera: 5/5. I've been a day 1 hater of this mechanic and feel more and more validated about my stance on Tera as the meta evolves and it proves to be an ever-increasingly problematic mechanic. That said, I don't think this should be on the table for a suspect test until DLC2. Once we have a metagame that isn't gonna be getting crazy huge additions every couple months I think that's the best time to deal with Tera.
: 2/5. This was a lot more problematic in the DLC days, but right now I think Kingambit is more or less fine. Excellent, yes, and extremely dangerous in the lategame, but the tier has more than enough in the way of faster mons capable of eating a Sucker Punch and/or exploiting its massive Encore weakness or slower mons able to keep it in check defensively. I firmly believe Gambit's perfectly reasonable in this metagame and I just don't understand how people are still adamant that this is a 5/5, quickban-worthy mon; there's another physical Dark-type sweeper that's causing far more problems right now.: 4/5. This mon dropping to UU during the later days of the HOME/pre-DLC1 meta really made people forget how nasty this thing is as far as setup sweepers go. Knock Off gives it some extreme, lasting impact even into the bulkier archetypes that once gave it a little more trouble, since now it can remove Boots and muscle past threats like Dondozo or Tera Fairy Dirge much more easily with hazard chip. It's entirely possible that the meta being so offensively-oriented right now is just making Roaring Moon an issue by proxy, of course, but I think this is overbearing right now.: 5/5. This mon has a severe, negative impact both on the hazards meta and on the Ground-type meta. The fact that this mon cannibalized the usage of numerous solid mons like Garchomp and Garganacl by stealing some of their niches and is so restrictive that running any Great Tusk that isn't an offensive Ice Spinner variant is throwing should speak volumes about how much of a negative impact it has even on the teambuilding process. I firmly believe this mon is what's making hazards so overbearing right now, rather than Gholdengo.: 2/5. I won't deny that it has an extreme influence on the hazards meta, but I also feel like getting rid of Gholdengo won't improve the tier in any substantial way. We still have a gross lack of reliable hazard removal: you've got somewhere in the realm of three to five mons tops that can consistently handle entry hazards, courtesy of Defog getting abysmal distribution (it's seriously just... Corviknight, Mandibuzz, and that's it). Corviknight is already the only noteworthy Defogger, Tusk is already the best Spinner, Cinderace is already excellent and will remain excellent with or without Gholdengo, and Maushold (VERY underrated mon, btw) is still a decent mon on specific HO squads. None of this would change if we banned Gholdengo, and we'd instead lose a meaningful defensive presence that the tier would otherwise be sorely lacking.: 4/5. Scary good mon. Offers an important defensive presence as well, but it's definitely in the realm of being a little overwhelming offensively all the same. I also don't think that this would be better for the tier in a non-Tera metagame; Grass/Water is a really cool defensive typing when combined with a Water immunity, and having a higher chance of losing to an opposing Wellspring while losing a Water immunity altogether isn't really worth the Tera all that frequently. I think it's probably on the problematic side a-la Roaring Moon.: 3/5. I think it's oppressive on Webs and the relatively rare Veil regardless, but I think the Tera Poison Take Heart+Stored Power set is an absolute demon that, surprisingly, hasn't caught on much on the ladder quite yet.Overall: if I had absolute power and could ban something in an instant without having to worry about long-term ramifications, I'd probably get rid of Tera as my #1 priority and then see where we go from there, probably axing Wellspring and Gliscor down the line. Now, obviously Tera's still a divisive mechanic and there is a legitimate concern about DLC2 (God knows when that comes out; I don't envy the Council's position here since that's inevitably going to warp discourse around suspects/bans even if it shouldn't) requiring everything bar Tera from being unbanned and probably giving mons like Volcarona a chance as well (hell, maybe even Darkrai would be borderline reasonable in a meta with those power levels), but if the gen were to hypothetically stop right now, that's what I'd do. But at the end of the day, its a shitty position to be in and I think the Council has been doing their best in spite of Gen 9 dropping a big content bomb every few months and changing everything.
all of the ones i listed are viable enough to be on the vr (pre-dlc at least, things change of course) and i specifically pointed out which ones are more niche. i'm actually being generous with the previous gens, too
how many pokemon can remove hazards is exactly as relevant as how many can set them. my post was a response to alternator claiming that we have an "average number of removers" and not taking into account the vastly increased number of viable setters. i didn't even make an argument one way or another, i just provided important context to the statistic that was presented
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Valiant? Nice check, would be ashamed if it died to +2 Knock.
Amoonguss? The all-mighty offensive wallbreaker Amoonguss. Fair point. /J
Sneasler? You have Gliscor my guy. Also +2 Shadow Claw says hi.
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Imo the only pokemon thats worth suspecting is gambit. I find waterpon to be a great mon but not unbalanced, manaphy is a 50/50 on contributing nothing to a battle, roaring moon is good and a decent second place consideration but it doesnt apply the pressure that gambit does.
I technically think ghold and gliscor deserve it even more, but imo they should be left to dlc2. Not because of any theorymonning on defog tm or new removals but bc i think the discussion of settlers vs ghold vs spike itself deserves more than the last suspect discussion will give them.
I technically think ghold and gliscor deserve it even more, but imo they should be left to dlc2. Not because of any theorymonning on defog tm or new removals but bc i think the discussion of settlers vs ghold vs spike itself deserves more than the last suspect discussion will give them.
Wow, that is a lot of projecting. There's no snarling, no foaming at the mouth, no frothing rage, but I'm sure you had fun conjuring up this characterization in your mind. The idea that the problem is the quantity of spikes setters rather than the quality of them is what I'm taking issue with. Surely you had a reason or intention for bringing up the "neutral data points," yes?
probably. volc and maaaybe zama-c are the only ones i would personally support at this time—everything else that's been banned seems pretty cut-and-dry broken no matter what happens to ou—but it all depends on what else comes back, what the new move distributions are, etc.
lmao no
then use the form of it that's allowed. lando-i with nasty plot is never dropping from ubers
yeah, i did. i wanted to provide context to alternator's post so that people could come to their own conclusions with all the available information, because simply saying "the number of removers is about what it was in older gens" is meaningless without taking into account that the number of setters has drastically increased. if i lived in a town going through a crime epidemic and someone said that "the number of police officers is about the same as always", would it not be pertinent for me to respond with "yes, but the number of criminals has increased"? even if a few of those criminals are responsible for more frequent and more severe crimes?
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Thunderbird guy
Banned deucer.
Is dlc2 predicted to come in November?
Bro trust me the shitmon did it's job by giving gambit a SO stack. That's the most it does on a game to game basis either ways so it doesn't matter!
Winter 2023 means it could come as soon as december and as late as march.
Although it seems like even then there's a chance it could be pushed back.
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