SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

[Arcanine is Regal]

Alright well I have read about as much as I can so im sorry if i repeat anything. But here is my take on the issue. Swagger teams are annoying to deal with, but as AJ was saying, all you need is a pokemon like chansey and rotom-w, to make safe switches and try to break through the confusion. In that instance the prankster team will always lose barring incredible luck.

But the thing I wanted to talk about is a startegy that i thought was actually pretty cool. And that is the strategy that consists of a prankster swagger twaving a sweeper and then using swagger...if the pokemon hits inself in confusino GREAT that is a dead sweeper. If it breaks through confusion you can come ine with a ditto(unscarfed because of the paras) and now you have a great sweeper that can clean up the pranksters mess.

If I had to give an answer to what I think should be done about this, Id say ban swagger, main reason being is I think there are pokemon that can use other confusion moves very effectively, things like lanturn, even rotom-w, many pokes can use these moves to give themselves a little wiggle room tobenefit there team one way or another. It is also the simplest solution, because we can not ban all confusion moves because then what would moves like water pulse signal beam hurricane do. And the thing I havent heard mentioned are moves like OUTRAGE, obviously we cant ban confusion. And banning all pokes with prankster is also obviously not a solution there are way too many that have a very solid place in this meta.

In my experience the simplest options are the best, and its important not to get too ahead of ourselves, so lets just ban swagger and get on with this meta.

 

[Psych :3]

Ok. So I've been on showdown for a while (bw1 end) but have never actually made and account here. Well I got bored so I might as well voice my opinion. I've faced my fair share of these teams and even tried one out myself. I believe this "strategy" is uncompetitive as it is based entirely on luck in a game with enough already. I understand pokemon is partially based on luck, but swagplay is pushing it. I agree with ajwf however, as confusion is a component in some stall teams, but the combination of swagger and prankster is just downright uncompetitive, and is only used to abuse "the coin flip".
Ban swagger and prankster in combination (complex ban).

Please excuse my paragraphing and spelling as this is my first post and is from my phone.

 

[Little Comrade]

No one said Confusion was broken. It is unhealthy for a competitive metagame, is the argument being made. Something that turns a battle into a coin flip should not be allowed.

I will rephrase that then. I don't think that getting rid of SwagPlay limits creativity in a meaningful way.

Am I wrong in saying that there are a lot of possible strategies and team layouts? Like, a huge number of team layouts? Getting rid of SwagPlay teams/Swagger gets rid of a few options and doesn't bring much of anything to the table in terms of what's viable, but that doesn't need to be a bad thing. The entire reason we want variety is because it makes things fun. SwagPlay teams (and SwagPlay users in general,) aren't fun to play against, even if you find them easy to dispose of or don't lose the coin flips. I don't know how fun they are to use, but I'd run a Gravity-based team long before I got bored enough to try SwagPlay.

I think the general idea is that competitive Pokemon players have fun by playing to win with and against variable teams using strategy, prediction and good teambuilding. SwagPlay hinders the "play to win," part and changes the win conditions away from strategy, prediction and teambuilding. If we have to take one option away from the currently large pool of options to better achieve our goal of a "healthy metagame," is that so bad?

Generally we ban things that are actually an issue in the format. I don't see how confusion is a bigger problem than P

Yes, most of the users of Own Tempo are bloody terrible, and the ones that aren't (i.e. the Slows) had better used other abilities. We have been through this before.

Lum Berry would in this situation only work on Electric-types or Ground-types, and the only common thing, that fits the criterion, is Lum Berry Garchomp. And why assume, Klefki won't put up a Sub as you switch, protecting from the first turn of swagger and leaving you bare to the next coinflip?

If you're running Swagger + T-Wave on Klefki then your two extra move slots would be Protect and Sub as you stated right?

Now let's think for a second, call it a hunch, but whaaaat if there's somebody out there running a Prankster pokemon FASTER than Klefki that has TAUNT?

Then that entire moveset of yours would be all for naught.

And yes I realize that Lum Berry would be nice to run on a Ground or Electric type to discourage T-Wave, but honestly, if someone was to lead Klefki, and I happened to lead Volcarona or Heatran (because hey, who has a Klefki and DOESN'T lead with it nowadays) then they would yes, get off a single Swagger OR T-Wave, but Lum Berry fixes the issue, and then Fiery Dance or Lava Plume kills Klefki.

I'm not seeing the issue with Prankster Swagger or even Swagger. Then again I've never lost to anyone using SwagPlay either, so I guess standalone Swagger doesn't bother me. Not to mention trying to confusion spam someone to death is a kind of pathetic tactic that would end up failing horrible should something come OUT of confusion or hit THROUGH it.

But yeah, using Swagger + T-Wave combo as a justification to ban Swagger altogether is pathetic and a poorly formed argument. Don't defend people with poorly formed arguments.


EDIT: AND GOD FORBID SOMEONE RUN MEOWSTIC PRANKSTER SAFEGUARD LEAD.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Generally we ban things that are actually an issue in the format. I don't see how confusion is a bigger problem than P


If you're running Swagger + T-Wave on Klefki then your two extra move slots would be Protect and Sub as you stated right?

Now let's think for a second, call it a hunch, but whaaaat if there's somebody out there running a Prankster pokemon FASTER than Klefki that has TAUNT?

Then that entire moveset of yours would be all for naught.

And yes I realize that Lum Berry would be nice to run on a Ground or Electric type to discourage T-Wave, but honestly, if someone was to lead Klefki, and I happened to lead Volcarona or Heatran (because hey, who has a Klefki and DOESN'T lead with it nowadays) then they would yes, get off a single Swagger OR T-Wave, but Lum Berry fixes the issue, and then Fiery Dance or Lava Plume kills Klefki.

I'm not seeing the issue with Prankster Swagger or even Swagger. Then again I've never lost to anyone using SwagPlay either, so I guess standalone Swagger doesn't bother me. Not to mention trying to confusion spam someone to death is a kind of pathetic tactic that would end up failing horrible should something come OUT of confusion or hit THROUGH it.

But yeah, using Swagger + T-Wave combo as a justification to ban Swagger altogether is pathetic and a poorly formed argument. Don't defend people with poorly formed arguments.


EDIT: AND GOD FORBID SOMEONE RUN MEOWSTIC PRANKSTER SAFEGUARD LEAD.

Clearly it is an issue. Otherwise this thread would not be here. We don't just ban things for being overpowered. He also ban things that are uncompetitive. Also that Klefki should be running Foul Play not Protect and Meowstic sucks.

 

[indian]

seems like i,m late but i will post anyway. banning confusion is like tampering with the game mechanics. The best course of action would be to ban the combination of prankster+swagger as it is the main culprit. prankster just ignores speed tiers and after that it is a game of sub stalling until the confused pokemon kills itself or if you get a free sub kill it with your own boosted foul play. this "STRATEGY" is highly uncompetitive. Ban prankter+swagger on same pokemon.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

In my opinion, it is not confusion itself that causes the problem. It is when paralysis is also in play, making your possibility of making a move to 50%*50%=25%, which is just like increasing evasion, except that you also have a chance of dealing damage to yourself.

But then again, it would be a complex ban if you have to make it so that Parafusion cannot happen...

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Ban Prankster + Swagger or Prankster + Confusion (better the former that is really uncompetitive). Without Prankster the strategies are unreliable.

Existg counters/checks to this (Magic bouncers, Own Tempo users) but having to use it to deal with that is sometimes not a good idea. Espeon has uses outside Magic Bounce (special sweeper) but how one uses Lilligant with his "fantastic coverage" (really not) and the main viable ones (Slowbro) have to sacrifice Regeneratoer nly to deal with that strategy.
Putting 0 IV on Special Attacker is a good option... but it saolves partially the problem.

The biggest problem is not to how beat a 6-Swagplay team The problem is how to beata one/two SwagPlay users alongside the rest of the team.

Why not ban Confusion-inducing moves? Nobody is using Supersonic (55% accuracy) but Cofuse Ray even though it's rare, it could be a usable pokemon in some non-Prankster users to do certain strategies mainly Para-fusion or trying to chec a physical attacker. Notonly in Ou but also in lower tier.

Why not ban Swagger alone? Even though Swagger looks uncompetitive the move is fine- What's pushing the edge is the ability Prankster who forces priority too much in this metagame.

 

[sidakarya]

Generally we ban things that are actually an issue in the format. I don't see how confusion is a bigger problem than P


If you're running Swagger + T-Wave on Klefki then your two extra move slots would be Protect and Sub as you stated right?

Now let's think for a second, call it a hunch, but whaaaat if there's somebody out there running a Prankster pokemon FASTER than Klefki that has TAUNT?

Then that entire moveset of yours would be all for naught.

And yes I realize that Lum Berry would be nice to run on a Ground or Electric type to discourage T-Wave, but honestly, if someone was to lead Klefki, and I happened to lead Volcarona or Heatran (because hey, who has a Klefki and DOESN'T lead with it nowadays) then they would yes, get off a single Swagger OR T-Wave, but Lum Berry fixes the issue, and then Fiery Dance or Lava Plume kills Klefki.

I'm not seeing the issue with Prankster Swagger or even Swagger. Then again I've never lost to anyone using SwagPlay either, so I guess standalone Swagger doesn't bother me. Not to mention trying to confusion spam someone to death is a kind of pathetic tactic that would end up failing horrible should something come OUT of confusion or hit THROUGH it.

But yeah, using Swagger + T-Wave combo as a justification to ban Swagger altogether is pathetic and a poorly formed argument. Don't defend people with poorly formed arguments.


EDIT: AND GOD FORBID SOMEONE RUN MEOWSTIC PRANKSTER SAFEGUARD LEAD.

You misread me, the sub protects from the first attack while you waste their berry. And no one runs Swagplay without the play (the foul one, that is)

And honestly, you name all of these things, with which you could combat swagplay, like Own Tempo and Lum Berry leads, but should you really be expected to run them on every single team you make, just to be prepared for this cancerous "strategy", you shouldn't by all rights be facing anyway? I mean Thundurus is an absolute monster, but as I've said, I cannot be expected to run this one thing on all teams, S-rank or not. And they're not even very reliable "checks", if you were to call them as such - maybe against one swagplayer, if this is what you were getting at, but your Lum Berry lead helps not against a whole brigade of them with a ditto waiting in the wings. Then they can just spam Swagger until you waste a turn, and then what? Some swagplay teams do carry hazards, by the way.

And going by what I've posted about people getting suspect requisites with these kind of teams, I don't honestly see it as a "pathetic" tactic. It's clearly consistent enough and achieves results with enough efficacy, that it warrants attention. Even getting to 1600 with a poorly played, poorly put together gimmick team is not an usual occurence.

 

[Always!]

I think the key term here in "uncompetitive". A healthy Meta means using skill and such, not relying on things like Swagger and stuff. However, many here think that despite being unhealthy for the metagame, it still is a strategy nonetheless. However, people who say it is flawed strategy are wrong, in a sense. Flawed in the sense that it works in both ways, but in reality? What you are doing turns it into a game of luck. While the flaw in this strategy is that, that it requires luck to actually work, you drop the skill out of the game. That's unhealthy for sure, so I'm leaning toward Ban Swagger+Prankster.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Ban Prankster + Swagger or Prankster + Confusion (better the former that is really uncompetitive). Without Prankster the strategies are unreliable.

Existg counters/checks to this (Magic bouncers, Own Tempo users) but having to use it to deal with that is sometimes not a good idea. Espeon has uses outside Magic Bounce (special sweeper) but how one uses Lilligant with his "fantastic coverage" (really not) and the main viable ones (Slowbro) have to sacrifice Regeneratoer nly to deal with that strategy.
Putting 0 IV on Special Attacker is a good option... but it saolves partially the problem.

The biggest problem is not to how beat a 6-Swagplay team The problem is how to beata one/two SwagPlay users alongside the rest of the team.

Why not ban Confusion-inducing moves? Nobody is using Supersonic (55% accuracy) but Cofuse Ray even though it's rare, it could be a usable pokemon in some non-Prankster users to do certain strategies mainly Para-fusion or trying to chec a physical attacker. Notonly in Ou but also in lower tier.

Why not ban Swagger alone? Even though Swagger looks uncompetitive the move is fine- What's pushing the edge is the ability Prankster who forces priority too much in this metagame.

The reason I'm against outright banning swagger is because we already get a lot of grief for being ban happy, and there's really nothing "ban worthy" of swagger, unless it's priority swagger. Most viable swagger users are slow, and therefore easy to outspeed and KO. At very least, not having to deal with priority confusion makes switching out actually work because you can switch in somebody who can confidently finish the job. That's not possible with pranksters because they'll always be able to apply confusion before the attacker. Also, I still like No Guard Machamp, and a confusion clause would put the nails in his already buried coffin.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. It's just whether you think banning something irrelevant or going to the trouble of making a complex ban is worse for the nature of the game. I can see either way, but I'd prefer not to ban anything that doesn't need to be banned

 

[Little Comrade]

You misread me, the sub protects from the first attack while you waste their berry. And no one runs Swagplay without the play (the foul one, that is)

And honestly, you name all of these things, with which you could combat swagplay, like Own Tempo and Lum Berry leads, but should you really be expected to run them on every single team you make, just to be prepared for this cancerous "strategy", you shouldn't by all rights be facing anyway? I mean Thundurus is an absolute monster, but as I've said, I cannot be expected to run this one thing on all teams, S-rank or not. And they're not even very reliable "checks", if you were to call them as such - maybe against one swagplayer, if this is what you were getting at, but your Lum Berry lead helps not against a whole brigade of them with a ditto waiting in the wings that you absolutely should not be facing high in the ladder.

And going by what I've posted about people getting suspect requisites with these kind of teams, I don't honestly see it as a "pathetic" tactic. It's clearly consistent enough and achieves results with enough efficacy, that it warrants attention. Even getting to 1600 with a poorly played, poorly put together gimmick team is not an usual occurence.

Well for that entire tactic I see one solution that would be pretty common.

Meowstic

Safeguard
Reflect
Light Screen
-- Filler

Safeguard because you outspeed Klefki, set up Reflect because Klefki might try to Foul Play for small tickles damage, laugh at Klefki.

Clearly it is an issue. Otherwise this thread would not be here. We don't just ban things for being overpowered. He also ban things that are uncompetitive. Also that Klefki should be running Foul Play not Protect and Meowstic sucks.

This thread was started for the Swagger + Foul Play issue, not the SWAGGER issue. About 1/4 of the people in this thread are just trying to get confusion banned as a whole for no justified reason other than "butbutbut muh guaranteed autopilot team can't flip coins" Oh. fucking. Well. Paralysis is a coinflip and a removal of 3/4 of your speed stat, but you don't see people bitching about Prankster T-Wave.

EDIT: Maybe you guys SHOULD start bitching about Prankster T-Wave. InstaStun is much more problematic than confusion.

 

[Lazyboy0337]

It rips HO apart.
It makes stall have to play extremely extended and long battles where they fight against the confusion chance and the paralysis chance while the prankster subs.
Balanced teams suffer a mix of the above.

Oh no, the enemy team and their strategy causes your team trouble? It's not like the pokemon are battling or anything.

 

[Always!]

Oh no, the enemy team and their strategy causes your team trouble? It's not like the pokemon are battling or anything.

The point is putting your opponents team into a 50/50 chance, ad then murking them with Foul Play.

Unless you have a specialized mon, almost nothing can counter a strategy that works on a luck principle.

 

[Seiterman]

Last thing I'm responding to for the night.

The reason I'm against outright banning swagger is because we already get a lot of grief for being ban happy,

A) A lot of our detractors aren't suddenly think more highly of us if we leave this be. Remember that a lot of people hate for the sake of hating, and don't really do the whole "logic and reasoning," thing too well.

B) Seriously, we're a bunch of competitive Pokemon enthusiasts, do we really care that much what other people think of us? If we wanna make the game we play more fun for us to play, we should do that.

We need better reasons to either ban or not ban something than worrying what other people think of us.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Well for that entire tactic I see one solution that would be pretty common.

Meowstic

Safeguard
Reflect
Light Screen
-- Filler

Safeguard because you outspeed Klefki, set up Reflect because Klefki might try to Foul Play for small tickles damage, laugh at Klefki.


This thread was started for the Swagger + Foul Play issue, not the SWAGGER issue. About 1/4 of the people in this thread are just trying to get confusion banned as a whole for no justified reason other than "butbutbut muh guaranteed autopilot team can't flip coins" Oh. fucking. Well. Paralysis is a coinflip and a removal of 3/4 of your speed stat, but you don't see people bitching about Prankster T-Wave.

EDIT: Maybe you guys SHOULD start bitching about Prankster T-Wave. InstaStun is much more problematic than confusion.

Swagger is part of Swagger+Foul Play. Clearly you haven't read the arguments. Uncompetitive does not equal, "butbutbut muh guaranteed autopilot team can't flip coins". I can't think of the last time I lost to confusion. That however doesn't mean I can't put my word in against it, because it is uncompetitive. So far all I have seen out of the anti-ban people is you guys trying to counter an argument not being made. No one is arguing that it is broken. People are arguing that it is uncompetitive. That it is luck based. If you can prove to me that it is not 100% luck based, then maybe I'll change my mind. Until that point, I am done reasoning to your arguments, as it is a waste of my time. (And yours as well.)

 

[sidakarya]

Well for that entire tactic I see one solution that would be pretty common.

Meowstic

Safeguard
Reflect
Light Screen
-- Filler

Safeguard because you outspeed Klefki, set up Reflect because Klefki might try to Foul Play for small tickles damage, laugh at Klefki.

This thread was started for the Swagger + Foul Play issue, not the SWAGGER issue. About 1/4 of the people in this thread are just trying to get confusion banned as a whole for no justified reason other than "butbutbut muh guaranteed autopilot team can't flip coins" Oh. fucking. Well. Paralysis is a coinflip and a removal of 3/4 of your speed stat, but you don't see people bitching about Prankster T-Wave.

Again, this is a set, for which you'd have absolutely no use but to countermeasure a terrible, luck-based tactic, and which would be deadweight in any other situation. Why?

This thread wasn't started for "Swagger+Foul Play", it was started for a specific kind of set, which has been ever-growing in popularity - one which would not have existed, were it not for Swagger. The thing about Swagger + Foul Play is that because of the attack-raising effect combine with the instant 50/50, Foul Play wouldn't have been exploited, were it not for that move. This isn't Mandibuzz, with which you're trying to screw over a X-Zard for boosting. That's different. Here, the aim is to take control out of the player's hands and freeload off his 50/50 situation. There's very little adequate way to respond with any semblance of skill other than switch-spamming, which is in its own right exploitable (my whole team is paralysed, OH FRABJOUS DAY). You just have to hope, your attack hits to at best land a KO, at worst only break a Substitute while probably losing 40%~ to Foul Play.

I think you don't understand, how coinflipping - or to be precise, the abuse thereof - is so detrimental to a competitive environment, our whole raison d'être. Things like Stone Miss and Focus Miss don't scale up to how skewed the probabilities are to a swagplayer. Even paraflinchers don't scale up against how much more widely distributed and easier to use (Togekiss can only hold up the flinch chain by spamming Air Slash, no way your opponent can switch an Electric-type(!)) this tactic is, that you can viably build a whole team around it. So yes, a lot of us are frustrated, that we have to deal with being forced to play roulette in a competitive game.

 

[Dummy007]

The issue with SwaggPlay is certainly not that it is a high-quality strategy or one not prone to misfires. The issue with SwaggPlay is that it drastically raises the influence of probability on the outcome of a matchup. Even if the odds are technically still stacked against the SwaggPlayer, they are substantially less stacked against them than they would be otherwise.

Consider my earlier example of Prankster Liepard vs. the +6/+6/+6 Volcarona. Obviously, the odds are highly stacked against the SwaggPlay user; in fact, the probability of Liepard surviving a single turn is essentially 0. Now, Liepard uses Swagger; there is now a 45% chance that Volcarona will hit itself this turn and a 55% chance that Liepard will faint. Using a single move, Liepard's chance of surviving the turn increased from 0% to 45%! Then, assuming Liepard survives (which there was a 45% chance of having happen), it can use Thunder Wave the next turn, reducing Volcarona's probability to act to a meager 37.5%. So, with no skillful playing on the SwaggPlay user's part, Liepard artificially increased its probability of surviving for two turns from 0% to 33.75%. Liepard, which would under normal circumstances have fainted in one round, has roughly a 1/3 chance of lasting for two rounds- very different from the 0% chance without SwaggPlay! Liepard can now begin using Foul Play or continue Swaggering, having lived far longer than it deserved to.

In essence, SwaggPlay takes a sport shooting competition and turns it into a game of Russian roulette. How well you can handle your gun isn't important when it's being pressed against your forehead.

(also, Meowstic is outsped and Taunted by Liepard, j/s)

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Last thing I'm responding to for the night.



A) A lot of our detractors aren't suddenly think more highly of us if we leave this be. Remember that a lot of people hate for the sake of hating, and don't really do the whole "logic and reasoning," thing too well.

B) Seriously, we're a bunch of competitive Pokemon enthusiasts, do we really care that much what other people think of us? If we wanna make the game we play more fun for us to play, we should do that.

We need better reasons to either ban or not ban something than worrying what other people think of us.

fair enough, but I don't like people hating on me when they're not completely wrong. If we go for the complex ban, then I'll have an easy counter argument when people try to cuss me out, and they'll know, somewhere deep in their irrational brains, that I've got a point, and that helps me sleep at night

 

[PenguinKnight]

Oh no, the enemy team and their strategy causes your team trouble? It's not like the pokemon are battling or anything.

You realize what I meant is that it causes every playstyle a problem, and it was presented as a reply to another comment? Take things out of context, sure. Present to me a useful argument, don't cherrypick things out of context.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

The reason I'm against outright banning swagger is because we already get a lot of grief for being ban happy, and there's really nothing "ban worthy" of swagger, unless it's priority swagger. Most viable swagger users are slow, and therefore easy to outspeed and KO. At very least, not having to deal with priority confusion makes switching out actually work because you can switch in somebody who can confidently finish the job. That's not possible with pranksters because they'll always be able to apply confusion before the attacker. Also, I still like No Guard Machamp, and a confusion clause would put the nails in his already buried coffin.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. It's just whether you think banning something irrelevant or going to the trouble of making a complex ban is worse for the nature of the game. I can see either way, but I'd prefer not to ban anything that doesn't need to be banned

The people that are attacking our community right now are in no way doing so in an intelligible or thoughtful manner, because of that they shouldnt be given the time of day let alone play a part in how we decide to make the game more fun and competitive

 

[WildShot]

*Cackles* Oh, boy. I knew that people were getting ticked off about it, but I didn't know that it'd be thrashing people to THIS extent!

We're supposed to be competitive gamers, right? This tactic isn't broken. It can just as easily destroy your opponent as it can you. Is your team particularly vulnerable to it? I have the answer for you:

DEAL WITH IT.

Find something. Things exist. I'm not suggesting crud like Own Tempo, but there's always something that can be done. This doesn't even have the muscle of Speed Boost Blaziken, Xerneas, or freaking Arceus. The opponent is forcing coinflips. In other words, the opponent is taking a serious risk, too. He risks being hoisted by his own petard. So he's taking a gamble.

I, for one, think that if a gamble is being taken, then the gambler should be able to reap the rewards if he succeeds. Forcing a coinflip is forcing chance. That, I believe, is perfectly acceptable. There's always chance. That's part of the game, though. Some say that those chances are different because they "can't be avoided". If those can't be avoided, then why on earth should these? You may be in a bad situation (or just suck at playing), and your opponent can quite probably overcome you. Forcing a coinflip can overcome these odds and achieve a turnabout. Your opponent didn't think of a way to eliminate chance, and now he pays. Alternatively, he did bring a way, and now you're eating dirt... or he didn't bring a way, but he finds a way do outgambit you - y'know, like a good competitive player - and you're still eating crow. Not to mention the possibility that you get hoisted by your own petard.

Others say that "this isn't fair". My response is this question: "what's fair"? Fairness is subjective. I think that this is fair. Some people don't. Likewise, some people think that Serene Grace Jirachi and Togekiss are "fair". Personally, I also believe that they're "fair". However, others don't. For something to be judged on "fairness" is meaningless. The only way to deal with an issue like this is a mass vote. If the majority doesn't want it, tough for some. If the majority wants it, tough for others.

One last thing: if this actually happens while stuff like Jirachi and Togekiss roam free, then I'm going to start laughing.

That's my fifty cents on the issue.

 

[Lazyboy0337]

The point is putting your opponents team into a 50/50 chance, ad then murking them with Foul Play.

Unless you have a specialized mon, almost nothing can counter a strategy that works on a luck principle.

The luck that makes this strategy can also break it. While you could theoretically have all six of your pokemon lock downed and Foul Played, you could also avoid hax for three turns, get unconfused, and be halfway through sweeping their team. Luck runs both ways.

You realize what I meant is that it causes every playstyle a problem, and it was presented as a reply to another comment? Take things out of context, sure. Present to me a useful argument, don't cherrypick things out of context.

Everything causes problems for every playstyle, if it didn't then nobody would use it. SwagPlay's ability to be an equal threat to virtually all playstyles make it a viable enough strategy.

 

[indian]

The luck that makes this strategy can also break it. While you could theoretically have all six of your pokemon lock downed and Foul Played, you could also avoid hax for three turns, get unconfused, and be halfway through sweeping their team. Luck runs both ways.

That's the problem it is extremely luck based and thus uncompetitive. Although there are other luck based elements in the game but none is a 50-50 chance.

 

[Lazyboy0337]

That's the problem it is extremely luck based and thus uncompetitive. Although there are other luck based elements in the game but none is a 50-50 chance.

Machamp used Dynamic Punch!
Chatot used Chatter!
(whatever pokemon) used Confuse Ray!
Togekiss/Jirachi used Air Slash/Iron Head!

You sure about that?

 

[fail_at_battling]

I just wanted to mention that banning confuse moves solely based on luck would not make much sense when much of the game is based on luck. I've observed that the chance of hitting yourself in confusion and the chance of getting flinched by a move like iron head or rock slide (I'm looking at you, Excadrill) have roughly the same chance of happening (oddly, the 20% difference in theory doesn't seem to make much of a difference in practice). Using the same logic that confusion is luck-based, iron head and rock slide should be banned. And yet, I'm pretty sure most people would not want these two moves to be banned.

What confusion should be banned for is what happens when you get unlucky. Let's look at swagger, confuse ray, and iron head. When a pokemon uses confuse ray, you have a 50% chance of attacking, or 50% chance of doing a small amount of damage to yourself followed by the opponent stalling. This in itself doesn't sound too bad. However, when an opponent uses swagger, the chance of doing a small amount of damage to yourself becomes a chance of doing a large amount of damage to yourself. On top of that, if the opponent foul plays, even more large damage is dealt to you. This is what sounds dangerous. When an opponent flinches with iron head or rock slide, a large amount of damage is done in addition to you being unable to hit back. Iron head sounds even more dangerous than confuse ray. Swagger is what sounds problematic to me.

TLDR: I am in favor of banning swagger, because it is what actually presents a luck-based threat high in comparison to other luck-based threats.