Swampert (Choice Specs)

[el fizz]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/swampert

[SET]
name: Spexpert
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Hidden Power Grass
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
-Unbelievably hard to wall, due to sheer damage output
-Beats the most common leads in today's metagame
-Shock value can score you a bonus kill (but doesn't rely on it)
-Currently no similar sets on-site

Additional Comments:
-Expert Belt could also be utilized for free move switching, but lacks raw power.


Teammates and Counters:
-Works well with a secondary Steath Rocks user and a bulky ghost-type
-This set is walled by blissey and bulky waters like Suicune and Vaporeon


First thing off, this works awesome as a lead. It doesn't have to lead and can work well as a mid-game tank, but I have built it for a lead.

To sell you guys, I'm going to show you some calcs on some of the biggest leads in the game.

HP Grass
252 HP / 0 SpDef Swampert = 102% - 120.8%
252 HP / 0 SpDef Suicune = 41.6% - 49%
252 HP / 0 Spdef Vaporeon = 43.8% - 51.8%


Earth Power
252 HP / 0 SpDef Metagross = 108.8% - 128.6%
4 HP / 0 SpDef Heatran with Shuca = 106.5% - 126.3%
80 HP / 0 SpDef Jirachi (after it tricks you scarf) = 67% - 79.8%
80 HP / 0 SpDef Jirachi (if you still have specs on) = 100.3% - 118.6%

Hydro Pump
252 HP / 88 SpDef Hippowdon = 134.3% - 158.6%
252 HP / 224 SpDef Tyranitar with sandstorm = 64.4% - 76.2%
4 HP / 0 SpDef Tyranitar with sandstorm = 93.6% - 111.1%
252 HP / 96 SpDef Machamp = 64.3% - 76%
252 HP / 92 SpDef Bronzong (sassy) = 52.7% - 62.4%

Ice Beam
104 HP / 0 SpDef Crobat = 90.8% - 107.4%


I didn't list some of the more obvious leads like Dragonite and Gliscor who are obviously OHKO'd by Ice Beam and lead apes who are 2HKO with Earth Power. Aerodactyl is 2HKO'd by Ice Beam because of sash.

One thing that should be noted is that Azelf can be a bit hard to take down. Especially if it isn't a taunting Azelf. The recommended strategy is Two consecutive Ice Beams. Usually the Azelf if it wasted a turn taunting you will get rocks up as you KO it, but if it went for Stealth Rocks on the first turn it will usually explode seeing your damage output, this is when running this set with something like rotom comes into play. You will be able to eat up an Explosion and maybe get off a Will-O-Wisp on something else.

This set eats taunt leads alive, obviously as they taunt you you are firing a boosted attack their way. I don't know how many times I've been taunted by Crobat and OHKO'd it right back with an Ice Beam.

 

[xAMNx]

Awesome. This set has been tested by me and quite a few other people I know. It is amazingly successful. But one thing Fizzy missed out, it's true it works great as a lead and mid-game tank, but also as a very late game finisher. After torrent is activated, the Hydro Pump is DEADLY. But even without torrent if you've taken out a Bulky Water, you know you can lock yourself on to Hydro Pump late game.

 

[KnightoftheWind]

What proper reason is there to use this over the large majority of special attackers? Both Heatran and Starmie can both significantly harder than Swampert and are faster as well, while Swampert has to put up with base 85 Special Attack and 60 base Speed, neither of which is really useful for a special attacker. In terms of leading, there's anti-leads such as Machamp and Dragonite that have better damage output and priority to beat suicide leads, forcing them to either get Stealth Rock up and leave the lead untouched, or attack it and not get Stealth Rock up. Not to mention, the standard lead Swampert doesn't have a big disadvantage against most leads and can get Stealth Rock up as well. Yeah, I don't see this set as being very viable.

 

[xAMNx]

What proper reason is there to use this over the large majority of special attackers? Both Heatran and Starmie can both significantly harder than Swampert and are faster as well, while Swampert has to put up with base 85 Special Attack and 60 base Speed, neither of which is really useful for a special attacker. In terms of leading, there's anti-leads such as Machamp and Dragonite that have better damage output and priority to beat suicide leads, forcing them to either get Stealth Rock up and leave the lead untouched, or attack it and not get Stealth Rock up. Not to mention, the standard lead Swampert doesn't have a big disadvantage against most leads and can get Stealth Rock up as well. Yeah, I don't see this set as being very viable.

You are absolutely disregarding the fact that Swampert has much, much better typing and defenses/HP as compared to Starmie, and also the surprise factor has value too. It's been tested, and is outstandingly effective.

 

[Zystral]

Tested by who?
Defensive typing or not, Swampert would rather have you investing fully in its defences so it can just concentrate on being defensive.
Starmie has the speed and power to not worry as much about its defences as it can just attack anything, while Swampert is almost always being outsped, and since you're not investing in its defences, it won't be sticking around as long.

A set should never go on-site purely for "surprise value" unless it is actually viable. Swampert has a lot of better things to be doing than trying to pull off a sweep, and there are lot more who can pull this sort of thing off more effectively. Normal leading Swampert has better ways to deal with Taunters, which is just to attack. You'll do more damage to the likes of Aerodactyl and Azelf with Waterfall than you will with Ice Beam.

As a late game cleaner, why would you use Swampert as opposed to something else that is faster, more powerful, more effective and with better coverage? Despite the calcs, I don't see a point. I would rather have Swampert as a defensive Pokemon while I clean up with something like Salamence.
As well as this, Swampert's movepool is deadly predictable. Once they know you are locked into Specs, especially on Earth Power or HP Grass, they can just bring in something to set up and sweep.

If it is as brilliant and effective as you say, why can't we have logs to prove it?

 

[shrang]

I'm obviously not a QC member, but I really can't see anything more to this set than a gimmick to use at certain times like tournaments. Apart from having better defenses than Starmie and a surprise factor (Which dies really, really quickly), there isn't much that Swampy has over other special attackers. If it has been effective, I'd recommend logs.

 

[MetaNite]

In addition to what others have set, you could just as easily use a Choice Band. This yields pretty much the same KOs against enemy leads, bar the OHKO on Hippowdon, but you gain a clean kill on Tyranitar, and a lot more damage to Machamp. Waterfall is also more useful against bulky lead Azelf, pretty much always 2HKOing unless they set up a Reflect. Only disadvantages is that you lose the kill on enemy Swampert and you can't kill Skarm with Hydro Pump (but it still comes in on 3/4 of your moves).

 

[Toaster]

I'm not too sure about this set having to go on site and here is why. Also note that there was a set like this and that was rejected(Although that wasn't meant for being an anti-lead)

First of all, Swampert lacks a few key characteristics that make an anti-lead. Unlike Starmie, Swampert is as slow as fuck, Suicide leads can just stealth rock on you and voila their job is done. Meaning that Swampert will have a hard time stopping a lead from stealth rocking. The only leads that you shouldn't be worrying about are Hippodown, which raises another point: What does this lead beats that the standard lead can't? Allow me to explain:

Vs. Azelf:

Scenario: You Hydro Pump, Azelf Stealth Rocks.
Scenario 2: You Hydro Pump, he taunts you fearing that you may SR. Azelf SR's and Azelf faints from Hydro Pump

Explanation: In Scenario 1, Azelf has done its job. He has gotten rocks up which is the whole point of a suicide lead. Worse still he explodes on you. Azelf wins here

Scenario 2 is pretty much the same thing, Azelf has done its job by setting up rocks, His job is done, so even though Azelf is dead. You still lose. Azelf also wins.

Conclusion: Azelf wins, as you can see Swampert cannot stop Azelf from setting up rocks even as he dies. Now imangine the same thing happening with Azelf vs Lucario in the case of Scenario 1. Who wouild you think would win here?

Mixpert: same as above only that if scenario 2 happens, Azelf can explode on you while getting those rocks up. So Azelf also wins.

Both will lose.

Vs Metagross:

This is assuming we are running Occa or Lum

Scenario: Gross outspeeds and SR's, you EP for the kill.

Explanation: You can see who can win here. However, Gross has gotten stealth rocks. So Metagross doesn't completely lose either

Mixpert: You'll usually get rocks from here. However gross can't do anything to pert other than explode anyway. If gross doesn't have explosion then theres no difference from here.

If Metagross doesn't have Explosion then theres no difference between the two. Otherwise I can see that Specspert wins here.

Vs Aerodactyl

Scenario: See Azelf

Explanation: Aero gets SR, which is the point of a suicide lead. So even as you Hydro Pump it into oblivion. Aero has done its job. Aero wins here

Mixpert will pretty much expect the same thing as the above, so I won't waste my time here.

Both will fail to stop it from getting SR. Much like Azelf.

Vs Swampert

You HP Grass, and if you win the speed tie you win here. Mixpert is unable to win against Swampert but it doesn't lose either as you have still gotten SR.

Specspert wins here, but Mixpert doesn't lose. Although thats really the only thing.

Vs Jirachi:

Scenario 1: Jirachi gets rocks up, you EP
Scenario 2: He tricks you, you can EP

Scenario 1: You win here, Although Jirachi has gotten rocks up.
Scenario 2: Jirachi tricks you, and you are unable to KO it. Any smart player will switch in on a levitator (Gengar for example) and use Jirachi for later. Doesn't lose but neither does Jirachi.

Mixpert: You also win here, EQ or not. Jirachi won't be doing shit to you on Scenario 1. Scenario 2 means Jirachi will win assuming you SR. But then again, any smart player will a) go for the kill with EQ or b) switch in on an appropriate trick absorber like zone .

----
I can go on and on about this but I can't really see any differences apart from beating opposing Swampert. It may not make sense comparing a Anti-Lead to a lead but it also doesn't make any sense when an Anti-Lead doesn't have any advantages over the standard lead( In other words: an anti-lead that doesn't beat anymore stuff than a lead.)

And I won't even go in the non-lead position as if I wanted a torrent specs user with a good defensive typing then I would just rather go with Empoleon. Who has the same speed as Swampert only with better Special Attack and more resistances than Swampert, and even then Specs Empoleon is iffy.

EDIT: Oh and just a nitpick (doesn't matter since it seems to be clear that its not going to be approved but...)

HP Grass
252 HP / 0 SpDef Suicune = 41.6% - 49%
252 HP / 0 Spdef Vaporeon = 43.8% - 51.8%

How the hell is Suicune and Vaporeon "the biggest leads in the game"? You should probably remove these.

 

[Setsuna]

I don't have to test this set out for saying that I don't approve it. More than one user have made pretty solid statements regarding this Swampert's effectiveness, and I'm not planning on disagreeing with them. To be quite honest, the only real thing Swampert is accomplishing by using Choice Specs and playing the lead position is getting a KO on a few leads due to the surprise factor; however, even this is questionable as Swampert won't be able to beat and prevent, respectively, leads such as Azelf, Aerodactyl and Metagross from setting up Stealth Rock, or others such as Machamp and Starmie from dealing a plausible amount of damage to it. In real life, if the idea is to start the match off by using an anti-lead Pokemon, then I believe that Dragonite, Machamp, Starmie and even Metagross would play a considerably better role, as they won't be locked into a move once they score the first hit. In short, there are already true anti-leads on-site, and giving Specs Swampert a spot just for the sake of the surprise factor is not between our plans.

 

[cim]

I wouldn't say a short Specs set just being on the analysis is a bad thing, it's nothing special but it does a decent job of hitting not-Blissey for damage. I think this set's plug as a lead and excessive hype is not reassuring though.

 

[ghost]

I don't see this set as being anything more than a passing mention in OO, as this set dies far too quickly and doesn't hit hard enough for a specsmon.

 

[Alan]

Why would I want to use Specs Pert when I can use Specs Empoleon who has ~15 more points in SpA, better typing (thats subjective, but it does have great typing), and the same base speed?

This set seems to lack a big selling point when compared to other specs water types.

 

[Philip7086]

I almost want to approve this just because I like the name "Spexpert" lol. But in all seriousness, this set is really lackluster and is outclassed for the most part by Choice Band Swampert. If you want to write a short paragraph about the viability of Specs for OO, I will approve that, but I'm going to have to say no to a full analysis.

 

[Zoom]

To be honest, this set is not good and only works because of the power of surprise and even than it's bad.

Azelf
#1 Taunt -> SR
#2 SR -> Explosion
#3 Grass Knot -> (you should survive that) -> Grass Knot / SR
You can't prevent Azelf from setting up SR and you may even lose your Swampert.

Aerodactyl
#1 Taunt -> SR
#2 SR -> Whatever
Obviously you can't prevent Aerodactyl from setting up SR, but it can't harm you either.

Swampert
Specs Swampert outspeeds LeadPert and 0HKOs it with HP Grass.

Metagross
#1 SR -> Swampert kills it with Earth Power
#2 Weird Trick set -> Swampert should be able to KO it with Earth Power, when it's an offensive set.

Machamp
#1 You outspeed it and can threat to 2HKO it with Hydro Pump, but confusion hax and the lack of physical bulk compared to LeadPert can make you lose.

Jirachi
#1 SR -> You kill it with Earth Power
#2 Trick -> You miss the kill -> Your opponent has a free switch

Infernape
#1 (Fake Out) -> SR -> Grass Knot / Endeavor / CC -> Infernape dies

Ninjask
#1 Pass speed without worry to be roared out

Tyranitar
SR -> Switch to a resist, as the damage number should suggest that it's a Specs version

Heatran
#1 SR -> Die
#2 HP Grass -> Heatran dies to Earth Power / Hydro Pump (you need a Specs to kill Swampert with HP Grass)

Roserade
.... kinda obvious


These results are disappointing, the only Pokémon you can prevent to let them set up SR are other Swamperts and Hippowdon. Also, many leads can set up SR and still hurt Swampert or they will notice that Swampert carries Specs and will switch to a resist. The only reason why it's sometimes working well is the power of surprise (unlike Machamp now, which is an excellent anti-lead, but he was better when he wasn't standard). Also, you still lose to all sleep leads.

Even when Swampert beats the lead, he isn't that useful later. He lacks the physical bulk to check things and it's very predictable, as your opponent will probably notice that it has to wear Choice Specs to deal this damage. Also, Specs Swampert can't set up SR.

PS: Yes, Empoleon fills this spot better, because of it's higher SpA and ability still to survive super effective ground and fighting moves along with basically the same set (you have to drop Earth Power, but otherwise the more powerful Hydro Pump is a good replace, you can run both Surf / Hydro Pump, to not lose because you missed once with Hydro Pump).

So sry, this set isn't that good.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Having used Choice Band Swampert in the past, I have to say that I can't imagine how Specs isn't just horribly outclassed by CB. Sure, the Water and Ice attacks are significantly stronger, but at the same time, you're contending with a difference of 30 in the attacking stats. In addition, Hydro Pump has accuracy issues, Earth Power is significantly weaker than its counterpart (lower bp hitting off of a lower stat), and it also doesn't have any realistic option for "spam this attack" like CBPert's Stone Edge is. This gets a no from me. Also, as a lead? Specs Heatran actually has that overwhelming power needed to brutalize common switchins and also works well later in the game since he's incredibly hard to wall, even with Blissey. Swampert... not quite as good.

Also, I have to say that the poster above me has hit the nail on the head by saying that Empoleon is just "better" at this kind of set due to "better typing", much better Special Attack, and fairly comparable defenses.

 

[xAMNx]

Having used Choice Band Swampert in the past, I have to say that I can't imagine how Specs isn't just horribly outclassed by CB. Sure, the Water and Ice attacks are significantly stronger, but at the same time, you're contending with a difference of 30 in the attacking stats. In addition, Hydro Pump has accuracy issues, Earth Power is significantly weaker than its counterpart (lower bp hitting off of a lower stat), and it also doesn't have any realistic option for "spam this attack" like CBPert's Stone Edge is. This gets a no from me.

I have also used Choice Band Pert in the past. To be honest, BandPert actually works better in most cases, but, the surprise factor and priceless reactions are worth a lot to me. I will try and post some Shoddy logs when I get the time. =)

 

[el fizz]

How the hell is Suicune and Vaporeon "the biggest leads in the game"? You should probably remove these.

Just posting a calc on its two biggest counters.

You guys all make good points. But Base 85 isn't a stat to laugh at. Like I said this doesn't have to work as a lead, but it can. Just like any other Swampert it has a niche in its typing. That is why it is better than things like Starmie or Empoleon. Sure Empoleon has a stronger Hydro Pump but it lacks a secondary STAB move to help it pick off pokemon, which is what this set does, pick off pokemon. Obviously, this isn't meant to stop rocks from getting up.

In most cases where Spexpert "fails" is where we are talking about Focus Sash users which in most cases those pokemon with Taunt and then set up Stealth Rocks because they have been hit with a move to bring them to sash. The fact that you just took down a pokemon while letting them get rocks up is a failure? I beg to differ. This set would run nicely with a rapid spinner if your team is Steath Rock weak.

As a mid-game tank, its not hard to find his way into a game. He can obviously get his way in on electric attacks because of his immunity and start firing off special attacks from a 442 Special Attack stat. Two great STAB moves to choose from and a secondary one. Something I've been seeing a lot is a switch-in to offensive Gyarados. Which you can 2HKO with rocks up.

At the very least it deserves a mention in OO. Its got a good moveset with excellent coverage. Obviously, people will expect your run of the mill Swampert and play it as if it were physical and you can score some nice hits, like taking out Skarm and Forre.

Call it a gimmick if you wish, but it is a pretty effective gimmick. The fact is there is no mention of Swampert's special attack and with a pretty decent stat, it could use one.

EDIT:: I'll get to work on logs.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

It's also COMPLETELY OUTCLASSED BY CB SWAMPERT.

There's a reason that its special attacks aren't mentioned. Its physical attack is far and away significantly higher, and its physical attacks are far more reliable. Until you convince me that there is some reason to use a weaker set with accuracy issues and a 100% dedicated wall in the form of Blissey rather than a much more beastly set which can just spam Waterfall and Stone Edge and rape everything that comes at it, this is going to get a no from me.

 

[Lightedge]

Alright, First off. am VERY tired of hearing "it fails because it lets the other lead set up rocks" i mean come on, since when has it been pert's job TO STOP rocks? pert NEVER stops a poke from setting up rocks, NEVER.
Also, you say in the scenario of it letting the poke set up rocks, it fails? oh yes, OHKOing a poke is failure, when you can just rapid spin them away like its nothing ever happened, like its an instant 6-5, which happens almost in every cases, except with azelf, as he gave a special mention to that.
as a lead it destroys other leads cept sashers, which most of them taunt first turn anyways. so my point is pert works as the following, you kill a poke for the price of stealth rocks, and i ask, is that a BAD thing? honestly without losing any HP, without any effort, you kill a poke for the price of SR, with rapid spin support, you get rid of it anyways, and Stealth rocks is almost ALWAYS up with both players, and instead of the normal pert that gets taunted and get has his job come to a halt, this one does his almost flawlessly.

one last thing, i read something about speed tie with other perts so risk the chance of THEM setting up rocks? really? its modest, with 4 speed EVs, that means always outspeeding other pert leads AND outspeeding anti-lead machamps.
Have a good one

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Uh... a lead that doesn't set up rocks and is meant to "anti-lead" should at the very least attempt to stop other leads from doing the same. What is the point of starting 6-5 when the opponent is probably aiming to start 6-5 anyway? Did all of you just forget what the word "suicide" in "suicude lead" means? No? Okay then.

 

[el fizz]

It's also COMPLETELY OUTCLASSED BY CB SWAMPERT.

There's a reason that its special attacks aren't mentioned. Its physical attack is far and away significantly higher, and its physical attacks are far more reliable. Until you convince me that there is some reason to use a weaker set with accuracy issues and a 100% dedicated wall in the form of Blissey rather than a much more beastly set which can just spam Waterfall and Stone Edge and rape everything that comes at it, this is going to get a no from me.

The same thing could be said for CB Pert with Skarm or Forre.

My last push for just an ounce of consideration. Lets consider common switch ins on Swampert. Forretress and Skarmory who get OHKO'd by Hydro Pump. Gyarados who can be 2HKO by Hydro Pump after taking rocks damage.

As I said before this doesn't have to lead it obviously had mid-game tanking abilities. You guys are focusing on the lead aspect of this set, but it is multi-faceted.

Uh... a lead that doesn't set up rocks and is meant to "anti-lead" should at the very least attempt to stop other leads from doing the same. What is the point of starting 6-5 when the opponent is probably aiming to start 6-5 anyway? Did all of you just forget what the word "suicide" in "suicude lead" means? No? Okay then.

Anti-Lead Machamp does this how?

I may well throw in the towel now, I don't want to start an unintended flame war or something. If you guys don't think its a viable set that's cool.

 

[Lightedge]

fair enough, anti leads that dont set up SR and stop SR from BEING set up.
we have machamp, does he stop SR? speed so low, NO, unless its against other perts and hippos, does togekiss? excluding the scarf set of course, does anti-lead luke?, the only one i can actually think of that fits your description sir, is weavile

 

[Darkamber8828]

An Anti-lead is a Pokémon that is uncommonly seen in the lead position, and is tailored to take down other common leads. An Anti-lead should generally be able to stop opposing leads from gaining the momentum in a match, such as through laying down Stealth Rock, etc...

Spexpert (Philip7086, you're right, the name is awesome) is not an efficient anti-lead because it doesn't bring/provide much momentum. They sr, you attack. They attack, you kill it. They bring in sweeper X, who resists your move and sets up, guessing correctly that you are choiced because there is no leftovers/life orb recoil. Status quo: They have sr, you don't. They have a sweeper with a free boost, you obviously don't. Instead, you have an outclassed offensive poke with average/mediocre offensive and defensive stats locked into one move.

tl; dr, This Swampert isn't a good anti-lead.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Machamp does it against slower leads (when possible), but it also has much, much more midgame utility, It also DOESN'T NEED A CHOICE ITEM. Choiced leads are terrible if they can't at least attempt to stop rocks, especially this one. Why yes, I'd like to let Swampert become setup bait for a 100% Salamence, Gyarados, Lucario (if you're locked into HP Grass, which you seem to think is a good idea), Suicune, etc. At least Heatran has so much power that it's hard to try and set things up on it... or switch into it... or really anything. Specs Swampert is just "meh".

EDIT: The poster above me knows what's goin on, hell yeah.

 

[el fizz]

You guys are focusing a lot on the fact that it is a lead. What if you take it out of the lead role?

I was just saying it can work as a lead but I keep repeating mid-game tank, no one seems to have anything to say about that.