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Taking a Look at BL2 [See post #14 for details]

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by DittoCrow, Sep 19, 2012.

  1. DittoCrow

    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Mar 15, 2010
    BL2 is RU's banlist, where Pokemon go that are too powerful for RU, but don't have enough usage to be UU. It's been a while since something was banned in RU, that Pokemon being Durant. I know that there's been some discussion in #rarelyused about Durant, and Mini-Tournament #6 surely sparked some thoughts by releasing Cresselia. There wasn't much room to discuss stuff though, so here's your chance to discuss the BL2 Pokemon in the current (and future) metagames! Here are the Pokemon that are banished to BL2

    Type: Psychic
    Base Stats: 120 HP / 70 Atk / 120 Def / 75 SpA / 130 SpDef / 85 Spe
    Abilities: Levitate

    There's nothing really negative to say about Cresselia in RU. It has a good typing, a great ability in Levitate, mammoth defenses, decent Speed, a good movepool including a reliable recovery move... the list goes on. The question is: is Cresselia too bulky for today's metagame? When it was banned, RU saw more balanced teams, but now that the metagame is undoubtedly more offensive, can Cresselia handle the heat, or can it still stand up to RU's top attackers?

    Type: Bug / Steel
    Base Stats: 58 HP / 109 Atk / 112 Def / 48 SpA / 48 SpDef / 109 Spe
    Abilities: Swarm / Hustle / Truant

    Durant was the Pokemon most recently banned... if Round 5 can be considered that. Durant was considered both too strong and too fast for RU and had a few deadly sets. It was voted 7-2 Ban, but many weeks after the vote, a few voters had changed their decisions. One of the main arguments to keep Durant in the tier was that it was too frail and had limited opportunities to switch in. Now, RU is even more offensive than it was with Durant in the tier. Will it be hard for Durant to succeed nowadays, or will it still be a broken force in the metagame?​

    You can also read about past bans in the History of RU, though it's not fully up to date yet.
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 22, 2004
    I've battled a couple of Cresselia in the Mini-tour, and overall it was unimpressive. It is certainly annoying, though, especially with T-Wave and its insane bulk (Absol's LO Night Slash didn't even 2HKO -_-). However, like Uxie it cannot hit hard right off the bat. With Pokemon like Escavalier, Aggron, OTR Cofagrigus and Spiritomb in the tier, I can't see Cresselia disrupting this metagame too much. It will certainly give Uxie some competition, but Uxie still has a niche in Stealth Rock and U-turn.

    Venomoth's nice base 90 Speed makes it a challenge to deal with, imo. I think we can leave QD Passing to Smeargle for now :3

    Hmm, I think banning Durant is a fair decision. It resists most of the common priority moves, and it's bulky enough to find an opportunity to set up that 1 turn of Hone Claws to destroy everything. BW2 tutor moves have also endowed Durant with Superpower, making it a lot more difficult to wall with the likes of Steelix. There are handful of faster mons and Scarfers that can easily revenge-kill or force it out, though, so I can see it being a manageable top threat.
  3. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- Old Gen Legend
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    Feb 27, 2009
    Venomoth would be an interesting edition to the tier. It seems pretty powerful though, and I reall don't think it should drop down. It would be like Lilligant except it wouldn't care at all about resistances, which means it can use like Bug Buzz / Sludge Bomb or a coverage move to rape pretty much everything. The fact that it can use Baton Pass over a coverage move pushes it over the edge, as with Tinted Lense, all it really needs is Bug Buzz. So I'm going to go with no on that one.

    Cresselia should drop down. As I could see from the mini-tournament, it really isn't broken. Sure it can take hits and set up screens, but it can't really threaten anything outside of Thunder Wave, and can be taken down, especially since it is REALLY crippled by Toxic. Also, Fighting-types aren't really that common anyway, while Ghost-types, such as Spiritomb, can take this thing out pretty easily, especially since Spiritomb has access to Trick and Pursuit. Cofagrigus sets up all day on this thing. Drop it down.

    No on Durant. That thing is WAY too strong. It pretty much OHKOs EVERYTHING that doesn't resist it, and still does a lot of damage to things that do. 109 Base Speed and an amazing 112 Base Defense make it even better, meaning it can't even be taken down by things such as Kabutops' Aqua Jet. Also, since there is pretty much no special priority in RU, the only way to take this thing down is to revenge kill it with something faster, which is hard enough as it is. TOO STRONGTH.
  4. Boingo


    Feb 28, 2008
    I didn't mind Venomoth when it was around. I actually liked searching for ways to counter it. Magmortar and Primeape with Vital Spirit were fun, but the greatest Veno-check I ever used was Psych Up Regirock, I miss using that. Sure, sometimes something had to eat the Sleep Powder beforehand, but I brought a Cleric/Sleep Talker then. If Venomoth came back, I sure wouldn't mind.

    Cresselia on the other hand can just fuck right off. If it got back into RU people would just once more argue about it, then come to the conclusion that it actually *does* wall a couple things too many, and ban it...again. We've been through this in both 4th gen UU and 5th gen RU (which are pretty much equivalents, with a few notable exceptions) and we should just leave it be.

    Don't think I ever saw too many Durants but when I did they really were pretty strong and difficult to deal with. I could switch in my Moltres on it but then I'd just get wrecked by Rock Slide. I suppose bulky waters work to some extent, especially Poliwrath, but eeeeh...probably better off banned.
  5. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
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    Jul 6, 2009
    The bugs are a big no no in my opinion. Nothing has really changed for Venomoth, all it needs is Qd, bug buzz, sleep powder and baton pass. It's extremely difficult to stop its own sweep when you consider that it can just sleep anything that can take bug buzz (moltres etc.) and continue with a practically unresisted STAB move. Baton Pass just pushes it over the top if you bring in something like a Moltres of your own.

    Durant is too fast and too powerful for RU to handle. I don't really understand why people think it might be okay now, are you forgetting that it goe Superpower? Previous checks and counters such as Steelix, Klinklang, Magneton and Aggron just get obliterated now.

    Cresselia probably would not be broken. Escavalier basically walks all over it unless it carries HP fire (which isn't gonna OHKO any time soon) and which then leaves cresselia obviously walled by other Pokemon. Cofagrigus and Spiritomb cheerfully beat it, not to mention other powerhouses such as Absol. RU could really do with a nice defensive pivot that can be slapped onto teams, and it's not unbreakable either. Spiritomb also ignores Dual Screens thanks to Infiltrator.
  6. Nozzle


    Apr 14, 2012
    Venomoth would be so freakin broken. Well, even more are all QD recipients. I've used smeargle QD pass a few times and nidoqueen seriously plows through everything with a QD boost and so does jynx. Being a bug/poison type doesnt hurt either cuz the tier is full with grass types.

    Not sure about Durant, its very strong and fast, but its very frail and it is hard to set up hone claws. Although focus sash helps it forces the team to use rapid spin support and it is easily revenged. Although it would destroy any team with no hazards up or priority/scarf users alive when Durant comes in. I still think its broken.

    Good ol' Cress. Not sure how it will work. Bugs and darks infest the tier but its also full of fighting types. Her massive defences are great and she has a recovery move in moonlight. Maybe we can give it a try and see how it fares for a while.
  7. august

    august ill take you out though im hardly worth your time
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    Nov 25, 2007
    I openly welcome the retesting of both Durant and Cresselia.

    Cresselia would give a decent solution to all of the offense in the tier and give a sure fire Nidoqueen counter that stall would surely welcome. Cress also makes offense better at the same time, being an excellent Dual Screen + Lunar Dancer to let offense get set up and even recover a fainted mon that can wreak havoc. Moonlight isn't the most reliable means of healing in upper tiers but in this case it only matters if they are running manual weather. Although kinda slow, Cress can also run an offensive set similar to what Uxie does, or run Substitute + Calm Mind with incredibly bulky Subs, in conjunction with hazards + a Pursuiter like Escavalier or Spiritomb to remove Haze Cryogonal. Cress would also diversify the tier slightly more by causing a rise in mons like Escavalier, Scyther etc.

    Durant, on the other hand, helps offense by being able to check a lot of random shit provided it can hit its attacks. Superpower / X Scissor / Iron Head / Rock Slide check random threats like Lilligant, Kabutops, Moltres, Nidoqueen, and others with prior damage. Granted you won't be able to run them all because you definitely need Hone Claws but oh well. Unbanning Cress and Durant at the same time would "sort of" offset each other, since Durant does a pretty decent job vs Cress etc.

    Unfortunately this is mostly theorymon because i wasn't around for Durant / Cress era but hey it seems like it'd be cool to have them around again and change up the meta :)
  8. Bigblue


    Jul 13, 2011
    If cresselia is reintroduced, it will make stall more viable which is great as it's more fun to have multiple play styles in a meta "cough" "cough" "OU get some variety" "cough". Also if cresselia comes back I'm thinking that the max defense sub CM set will dominate and then my favorite pokemon drapion will rise to the top 10 as it's probably the best defensive counter until cress starts running HP ground. Sure you can deal with cress the offensive way but it's not always the most successful because you don't really want cress hurting or spreading status all over your sweepers.

    Personally I would love to see my little ant friend return, mostly because the meta is so offensive. Sure it has access to hustle, hone claws and great coverage moves that could possibly make it over powered, but it still has pitiful defenses. Any kind of priority except extremespeed will rip durant apart,
    and not to mention things like accelgor, archeops, rhydon, sceptile, anything scarfed eat the face off of durant as well, unless you want to run some weird sub honeclaws set. And another thing not to forget is that with hustle all it's moves have bad accuracy so it's not like it can just switch in and sweep your whole team without risk, it really does need to setup.
  9. Yoshida


    Sep 23, 2012
    Cresselia definitely needs to be re-tested. With the addition of Escavalier in the tier, Cresselia has one more thing it can be wrecked by. Galvantula, Accelgor, and Escavalier all threaten Cresselia's success in the RU tier, but at the same time Cresselia walls/checks quite a few things, such as Gallade, Hitmonlee, and basically any other Ground/Fighting type in the tier. Another problem is that Cresselia is pretty forgotten in UU because of the existence of Heracross, and even Chandelure. I think Cresselia should definitely get a re-test.

    Venomoth is a no no, that thing is basically a Lilligant on steroids (and by that I mean it doesn't have to rely on HP Rock for coverage).

    Durant would be rather interesting to see in the tier. Sure, it has great coverage and a great Ability in Hustle (not to mention 109/49/109 offensive stats), but actually Hustle can be a curse for Durant. Due to reliance on Hone Claws, Durant can only run 3 out of its 4 coverage moves (Superpower, X-Scissor, Iron Head, Rock Slide). Sure you could forego Hone Claws, but then there's the issue of -20% accuracy for all of its moves (and it's already hard enough to make Rock Slide hit). Also any Choice Scarf user can easily revenge Durant, even with its impressive 109 Speed. Durant is great, but I wouldn't mind seeing it back down in RU. Maybe if it dropped, then Choice Scarf Moltres would be a lot more popular.

    TL;DR Let's try out Durant and Cresselia in RU; Venomoth is too good for RU IMO.
  10. DittoCrow

    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Mar 15, 2010

    Just going to make this short, because this thing would be insanely broken. There are so many powerful threats who would be even stronger if they received a Quiver Dance, coughNidoqueencough, not to mention that Venomoth can do pretty well on its own with Sleep Powder and Tinted Lens. If anything is going to be retested, I doubt it will be Venomoth.


    Before I played with it in RU and saw it in UU a few times, I really wanted Cresselia to come back. It is exactly what stall and defensive balance teams need to become good again. Cresselia come in on a plethora of physical threats due to its resistance to Fighting and immunity to Ground-type moves and cripple them with Thunder Wave or set up Calm Minds. It also has access to dual screens, which can make it even harder for these threats to KO. How Cresselia really helps defensive teams is that it is an amazing Nidoqueen counter—252/0 Cresselia isn't even 2HKOed by Nidoqueen. Cresselia can also counter Moltres with a bit of investment and cripple it with Thunder Wave or break its Substitutes with Psychic. Cresselia is also an answer to many, many more threats in RU, and there's no doubt that stall would be so much better with Cresselia.

    However, from what I've seen, Cresselia is sooo hard to take down, maybe even too hard. For example, people have been mentioning Spiritomb as a counter, but Choice Band Spiritomb only does 49.09 - 58.1% to 252/252+ Cresselia with Sucker Punch / Pursuit (when fleeing). Cresselia actually beats Spiritomb if it carries Toxic! DRAPION doesn't even 2HKO 252/252+ Cresselia with a Life Orb-boosted Crunch. Most of the things that people are saying that beat Cresselia, like Spiritomb and Drapion, can be worn down very easily, and Cresselia can switch out without much of a problem as well, only losing 50% from CB Spiritomb's Pursuit which it can recover with Moonlight. Besides Scyther, I can't think of much else that can beat Cresselia without boosts except for Escavalier I didn't look that hard though /lazy. Escavalier is probably the best counter to Cresselia, since it has a 68.75% chance to OHKO Cress with Megahorn. During the mini-tournament, however, I used Hidden Power Fire Cresselia, which was a guaranteed 2HKO on Escavalier after Stealth Rock. It's quite easy to predict the Escavalier switch-in as well, so I wouldn't say that Escavalier is as reliable as everyone else is saying.

    I realized that Cresselia may be too bulky for RU when facing it in UU. My Scarf Heracross's Megahorn only did 60% (the actually damage is 54.5 - 64.86%) and Cresselia KOed it, as it was weakened. I didn't have much trouble taking it down after that, but I was thinking that if Heracross only did that much, then the weaker RU Pokemon would be doing much worse. Cresselia has much more switch-in opportunities in RU than it does in UU, and I think that it would be a little too overpowered.

    I mainly discussed the defensive set, but Cresselia is really versatile and can run other good sets too. Dual Screens and Sub CM Cresselia could be extremely annoying as well in my opinion, and I believe that these were some of the arguments brought up in the round where Cresselia was banned. It's easy to just say that Cresselia will bring balance to RU based on speculation, but I think that if we play with it, viewpoints will be much different.


    I would like to bring Durant back to be honest. My old teams were almost all defensive or balanced, and things such as Steelix and Poliwrath had absolutely no problem dealing with Durant. However, now that it gained Superpower from BW2, I think that Durant could be another one of those Pokemon that trample defensive teams. I do realize that RU is primarily offensive, though, and that's why I think it deserves a chance. Durant is extremely frail, and with all of these powerful Pokemon running around nowadays, I think that it will have trouble switching in. Pokemon like Sceptile, Accelgor, Tauros, Swellow, and Archeops are all somewhat common on offensive teams and they can outspeed Durant. There is also quite a bit of priority, and even though Durant resists ExtremeSpeed and Sucker Punch, they can still revenge kill Durant if it's at around 25%. I'm really not sure about Durant but I'd at least like to test it. Hopefully the current mini-tournament will help me take a more defined position on it!
  11. spuds4ever


    Oct 4, 2011
    Well, I think quite a lot has already been said about the bugs. Venomoth is absurdly hard to stop, even though it only runs one set. Durant seems a little more debatable though, and much as I love it, I still think its way too powerful for ru. Consider the fact that it is faster than manetric and hits as hard as almost anything in the tied and is pretty much impossible to revenge with priority, I think that already says enough. No thanks Durant.

    Cresselia I still think as an individual Pokemon is broken, but the things it would do for the metagame would be fantastic. Stall would now be more viable and we'd see more of actually really good sets like dd crawdaunt and bulky SD drapion. Cresselia is still extremely tough, though, as you will have to be running lum berry on everything just because it is so difficult to safely take down. On the other hand, I don't think I'd like to run crawdaunt, drapion, or esca on every team which seems like it would be compulsory if she dies come down. Maybe if krook came down as well it might balance things out a bit.
  12. /B/utterfree


    Sep 3, 2010

    There's no, and then there's "Hell no". My opinion on releasing Venomoth into RU falls under the latter. Already there is trouble in regards to Baton Pass within the tier such that a complex ban of "Shell Smash + Baton Pass" exists. Venomoth's secondary controversy stems from QuiverPassing when it has already done its business of sweeping with Tinted Lens-aided attacks. Its "inferior" cousins are also of some concern. I theorized a possibility of breaking RU with just Quiver Dance Butterfree sweeping, since she also has Tinted Lens thanks to Dream World, and a similar enough movepool to be "Venomoth 1.5".


    Durant gained SuperPower, meaning it has less checks in RU than it had before (it used to only have 4; with SuperPower in movepools, now it only has 1, maybe 2 if Escavalier can survive its blows). Of its "checks," none had reliable recovery to stomach Durant's powerful attacks. In Durant's Suspect Test, there were enough of the same arguments of Hone Claws + Baton Pass also being lethal a combo.



    No, no, and no!
    Just because Escavalier is in RU does not, under any circumstances, mean that Cresselia should be welcomed back to the RU tier. Cresselia's defensive stats also make every other wall in RU blemish at the sight of her. You might as well send Uxie to NU, not to mention other Psychics who are used for fundamental defensive teams.

    Stall is perfectly viable without Cresselia; it just requires more effort to make a team of than it would otherwise. There are also bulky offensive teams which do a great job of stalling.

    Let's not forget that nearly every BL2 Pokemon outside of these three has moved up to UU or OU, and that some of their counters/friends have as well. Furthermore, this "free something from a tier that was previously banned" phase (yes, I'm calling it a phase, much like Weavile's banishment to Ubers was a phase back in DPPt) is not working in the other tiers last I checked. People wanting Garchomp back in OU are bound to create a myriad of problems in the tier as a result, and nobody else is suggesting anything in UU/NU.

    I still view RU as one of the more hazardous tiers to play in, even with Cofagrigus moving up. There are a lot of variables regarding why I find RU a little too powerful for its own good. Remember that I'm "That-Guy-Who-Still-Wants-Roserade-Banned-From-UU," "That Guy Who Doesn't Think Shadow Tag Chandelure Is Broken," and "The Guy Who Wants Metagross To Drop Down A Tier or Two So People Don't Troll NU/RU With Metang."

    That said, my focus at the moment is OU-related (I'm making a "Molk Approved" team, as it were, where Mew is the star). Thanks to the RU hub, I can check out this tier and then see when things arise so that DittoCrow's invitation to the next thingummy for RU doesn't end up declined due to negligence. I still have some work to do here, until I can be convinced the tier is super-balanced-and-no-devious-schemes-can-change-the-outcome.

    It's definitely not as broken as OU, that's for sure.

    /inb4 "/B/utterfree Logic"
  13. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 18, 2011
    Durant deserves a retest. I also think that Cresselia should be freed, but I'll make another post on that later, especially since a lot of the people in this thread agree with me and it's not as controversial as Durant.

    A talk in #rarelyused was recently held about Durant, and an overwhelming majority of us though that it deserves a retest. The fact is that, as mentioned in the OP, a majority of us feel that Durant wasn't broken back when it was banned in Stage 5. Yeah, it was really fast and powerful, but even things that weren't hard counters (Steelix, Poliwrath, and Magneton were its only 100% safe switch-ins), you could still check it easily. Also, Durant was extremely reliant on setup, and wasn't bulky enough to get it up without forcing a switch most of the time. It was a lot like Absol is now. While we all know that Durant has only gotten better with the addition of Superpower to its movepool, we're now keeping it banned because of theorymon now. That's a really stupid reason for keeping something banned most of the time.

    We should strive to keep our banlist as small as possible, and I think we can do that here by retesting Durant. I'm not even guaranteeing that it wouldn't be broken, but it at least deserves a chance, and I hate that we're still keeping it banned because of theorymon. Remember, it still has checks. Poliwrath and Thunder Wave Qwilfish are probably the best checks to it, but there are others, mainly because Durant has four-moveslot syndrome now. It will always carry X-Scissor, since its the superior STAB move to Iron Head because it's needed for Slowking and Tangrowth. It will probably always carry Superpower, since it's needed for all the Steel-types. It will need Rock Slide to hit Moltres, and it's also an important move for when you want to hit a Water-type without lowering your Attack. But wait, it needs Iron Head to hit Nidoqueen, Golurk, and a couple other things hard. Remember too, that Durant is using Stone Edge every time unless it uses Hone Claws. In this offense-filled metagame as it currently stands, I've heard several users say that it's underwhelming. And it beats Cresselia too.

    Retest Durant.
  14. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    Dec 12, 2009
    Alright, since it doesn't seem like anyone has had any Pokemon that they'd like to see suspected this round, and we've finally achieved a stable metagame, Oglemi and I have decided to reassess the Pokemon in BL2; in particular, we are going to be reassessing whether or not Cresselia and Durant still deserve to be banned! Sometime soon, senate members will be having a vote on whether or not they'd like to see Cresselia and Durant unbanned. In the meantime, feel free to use this thread to discuss whether or not Cresselia and Durant should be unbanned!
  15. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Feb 28, 2012
    I agree to testing Cresselia and Durant. In the more fast paced metgame, Cresselia's bulk is a welcome addition. With her, balanced teams have a better way to work. And I don't imagine her to be broken, because of Escavalier, and her Psychic-typing.

    Durant is in the same boat as Cresselia. In this faster metagame, Durant has a hard time setting up, and if it does it will be weakened so it can be revenged.
  16. PDC

    PDC this cruel thesis
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

    Mar 18, 2010
    Would this be a strictly council vote or similar to a suspect process? But I would like to see mayhe Cresselia re-evaluated, as I don't think it will be as broken this time around.
  17. DittoCrow

    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Mar 15, 2010
    The vote on which Pokemon to bring down and whether or not to bring them down will be strictly for the 7 senators. The Pokemon will not be officially RU, though they will be allowed on the PS ladder. Then, after the round has passed with the BL2 Pokemon in the tier, should they be unbanned, there will be a vote on whether or not they should become RU or stay in BL2. The vote will consist of the Senate and a rotating council, which you can read about here. The rotating council will have 6 spots: one spot will be given to the person who is highest on the ladder, one spot to the person who wins the RU Awards, one to the best IRC discusser, one to Pocket (for winning the last round of the Awards), and 2 misc.

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