Talking accross the table is rude (Language Discussion)

[RaikouLover]

Hey smogon, its Raikou and I have another thought provoking discussion today. Before I start, please remain civilized in this thread because it is a very controversial discussion.

So I am an American college student and many of you who attend American universities will know that there are a lot of international students attending these schools. I was sitting in the dining hall today, with my best friend who is Haitian (like straight from Haiti and speaks French), his other Haitian friend, two African students, and the rest of the five others were American (white and black if you must know). So basically, the table was representative of America as a country, a melting pot. However, while we were all eating and having our own conversations, etc., the two haitian students (who were not sitting next to each other, there were 3 students between them) started having a private conversation accross the table in creole, their native dialect. One of my American friends found this very offensive and confronted them about saying that it was rude and disprespectful. While I am a very accepting person, I agreed with her and also felt that it was very disrespectful.

So the meat of the discussion comes here: The reason why my friend and I find this disrespectful is that speaking in your native language in public when you are fluent in english is sort of like in a slap in the face. She took at as "what I'm saying is not for your ears so I will let that be known." The polite thing she suggested was for them to go have a private conversation at another table if they were going to speak in a different language. Their response was "why can't I speak in my own language. This is America, the country that accepts all cultures. Don't we have freedom of speech?" While I agree with both sides in this circumstance, I think this leads to a bigger issue that can be debated on both sides.

So here is my personal assessment of the issue: Although my country is a melting pot of all cultures, races and ethnicities, there needs to be some constant and in all cultures, language is the primary constant. It unifies and usually defines the roots of a country. So my opinion in the grand scheme of things is that I would support a law that says English should be the primary language of the country and should be spoken in public. Many of my international friends were enraged when I said this, but it makes sense from my point of view. I have no problem with speaking native tongues within the confines of someone's household, but as an American citizen or someone here for the sake of education and creating a better future for their families back at their native countries, I feel that respecting American culture and language is the minimum that should be required to be here. I know many will object to this logic and call me discriminatory and prejudiced and all kind of bullshit so I'll have to elaborate further:

It goes against the constitutional right of Freedom of Speech! This is perhaps the thing that outrages me the most. People cling to this constantly as justification for anything. Yes, the constitution says you may say whatever you want but this is limited to an extent. The real constitutional right means you can say whatever you want as long as it does not slander or threaten the government or is a threat to this nation's security. This is my biggest "point" if you will in my argument, as someone who talks accross the table but is fluent in english as I mentioned in what happened only has one reason to do so: they don't want everyone else to hear what they are saying. I remember being in an elevator once with twelve other people, and normally in elevators everyone is silent. Yet in this elevator, three english speaking people got on the elevator with me, and simply continued to have their own private conversation in spanish on the elevator. So my instinct in these situations without contradicting this constitutional amendment is that this can be perceived as a security threat. As someone who doesn't speak another language, I have no way of knowing if I could be plotted to be killed, talked about, or someone else being plotted to be killed. Its the same concept as if a teacher catches you talking during an exam. Whether you are cheating or not, the teacher has no way of knowing, and must assume the worst for the security of the test. I understand that such measures are not enforceable, but from a principle standpoint I don't think my stance on this situation is too farfetched.

So with that being said, my friends did apologize for their conversation and said they would respect our requests for them not to do this in the future, yet we really have no way of stopping them from doing so. They did say though "if you don't want to be offended than you should learn our language so you can understand what we are saying." Here is my final point: Why as an American should I have to learn other cultures' language? In the College of Art's and Sciences (I am Engineering), they are required to take a foreign language up to intermediate status. In high school, many are required to learn foreign languages. I just don't think I should be forced to learn the languages of others unless I am venturing to their respective countries. If I am on my own soil, I shouldn't have to be fluent in other languages for proper communication.

Thank you for reading my analysis, and I look forward to hearing discussions about this topic. I just want to say that I don't mean any of this to be discriminatory or offensive and if you find it offensive I'm sorry, but it is an important issue that deserves discussion and I have been nothing but honest in my own personal views in this thread. Please no bashing, thanks!

 

[Doomsday]

I think it's rude as well. It's almost the same as if one of them had gone and whispered into the other guy's ear. The point is that, while what they are saying might not offensive or 'secret' at all, it will always come off like that to everyone else who doesn't speak their language.

 

[Goodbar]

Well don't you think it might be a bit overboard to have called their behavior disrespectful? They are probably more comfortable speaking in their native tongue, and if it didn't concern the rest of the table, maybe they were actually being respectful by confusing any other conversations. My roommate is Asian and we occasionally have dinner/lunch, and if he brings his girlfriend they will sometimes converse in Chinese. It's a little awkward but I don't think anything of it, if it's something that shouldn't concern me I'm ok with them speaking in a language that's more familiar. Also I don't think you can outlaw something like speech, since speaking different languages really isn't enough of a threat or disturbance. English is already primary enough of a language in America and our cultural roots are born in it, and I don't think public speaking of other languages is really diminishing that very much.

 

[locopoke]

This was too long for my lazyass to read all of it, so all I'm gonna say is that if people around you know english, but they chose to speak another language to eachother then they're most likely talking about you. I've been in situations like that before but I just tend to ignore it and let them do their thing, whatever language it may be that they're speaking.

 

[umbarsc]

So my instinct in these situations without contradicting this constitutional amendment is that this can be perceived as a security threat. As someone who doesn't speak another language, I have no way of knowing if I could be plotted to be killed, talked about, or someone else being plotted to be killed. Its the same concept as if a teacher catches you talking during an exam. Whether you are cheating or not, the teacher has no way of knowing, and must assume the worst for the security of the test. I understand that such measures are not enforceable, but from a principle standpoint I don't think my stance on this situation is too farfetched.

That's ridiculous. You don't want people to have any privacy at all? I guess you're fine with being strip-searched every time you go inside a building so everyone knows you don't have any concealed weapons. And regardless, it's not like they're speaking in some code they've devised so that no one will know what they're saying. It's just the fact that they're not speaking the language of America so they must be anti-Americans.

I agree with your original point, that to have private conversations (and publicly private conversations, if that makes sense) while you're sitting at a table with several other people is rude. But I don't really agree with your example of the Spanish-speakers in the elevator, because I think the fact that they are having a conversation in the elevator is what is rude (though it depends; if they were just very softly talking amongst themselves, I don't think it's a huge deal), not the language or anything. It's not like the entire elevator needs to know, or that they should suddenly decide to switch languages because people in the elevator think the language is rude.

 

[Tangerine]

The reason why my friend and I find this disrespectful is that speaking in your native language in public when you are fluent in english is sort of like in a slap in the face. She took at as "what I'm saying is not for your ears so I will let that be known."

Or maybe she shouldn't be minding their business? If they want to have a private chat in their own language, then so what? In the end - the language isn't the problem here - it wouldn't be a problem if they were sitting next to each other, right? The problem is people talking across tables that allows people to overhear it. Then don't overhear it, simple as that. The problem isn't the language here - it's more about having a loud private chat in a public space.

So my opinion in the grand scheme of things is that I would support a law that says English should be the primary language of the country and should be spoken in public.

Because you find speaking in other languages rude? Seriously, what is the reasoning behind this other than "you find it rude?". People find other things more rude and offensive (slang, swearing) and then call it "unamerican" or whatever - why not go for those? Hey, talking with your mouth full is rude, etc etc etc. I find it offensive because it's unamerican to slap the rules of etiquette around the face like that.

Secondly, how do you propose that it be enforced? Fine people for speaking in another language in public? Wanna see what kind of shitstorm that'll bring out?

It goes against the constitutional right of Freedom of Speech! This is perhaps the thing that outrages me the most. People cling to this constantly as justification for anything. Yes, the constitution says you may say whatever you want but this is limited to an extent. The real constitutional right means you can say whatever you want as long as it does not slander or threaten the government or is a threat to this nation's security.

So does the kids talking in another language really threaten the government or the nation's security? Your proposal of banning other languages except English definitely infringes on our "right" to freedom of speech - why can't I use a language that I choose to speak?

Sorry, but everything you suggested comes from such a limited perspective ("you can only speak one language"). I find it ridiculous and offensive you can even make a "point" like that, lol. I find it even more ridiculous that they had to "apologize" for speaking another language.

In the end: "Sorry you can't speak another language". That's right - you as a american don't HAVE to learn another language. if you don't learn another language - you're obviously going to "miss out" on some things - it's the cost/benefit involved with learning a language. You don't have the right to know what people are saying just because "you want to" and therefore "they must speak in a language that conforms to you" - sorry. This is just selfish and probably the rest of the world think we're morons.

You don't have the right to force other people to conform to you. Mind your own business is all I want to really say, lol

 

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted by umbarsc
And regardless, it's not like they're speaking in some code they've devised so that no one will know what they're saying. It's just the fact that they're not speaking the language of America so they must be anti-Americans.

I apologize if it came off that way, but I didn't mean for it to sound like they are anti-Americans. It was supposed to just mean that there really is no reason not to speak the language of America in America if you are fluent in it unless you have something you want to hide, especially in the situation I described in the dining hall, thats all.

 

[Luduan]

Yes, the constitution says you may say whatever you want but this is limited to an extent. The real constitutional right means you can say whatever you want as long as it does not slander or threaten the government or is a threat to this nation's security. This is my biggest "point" if you will in my argument, as someone who talks accross the table but is fluent in english as I mentioned in what happened only has one reason to do so: they don't want everyone else to hear what they are saying. I remember being in an elevator once with twelve other people, and normally in elevators everyone is silent. Yet in this elevator, three english speaking people got on the elevator with me, and simply continued to have their own private conversation in spanish on the elevator. So my instinct in these situations without contradicting this constitutional amendment is that this can be perceived as a security threat. As someone who doesn't speak another language, I have no way of knowing if I could be plotted to be killed, talked about, or someone else being plotted to be killed. Its the same concept as if a teacher catches you talking during an exam. Whether you are cheating or not, the teacher has no way of knowing, and must assume the worst for the security of the test. I understand that such measures are not enforceable, but from a principle standpoint I don't think my stance on this situation is too farfetched.

Yes, it is farfetched because it can be taken to preposterous extremes. Can you not see the absurdity of automatically assuming that anyone speaking a foreign language in the presence of English speakers is a threat to national security? Honestly, think about what you are saying. I agree that talking in foreign languages over a dinner table when fluent in English can be construed as quite rude, as it seems a willful attempt at excluding others from your conversation, but on an elevator in the presence of complete strangers? Also, I find your point about having to learn other languages rather telling of the intellectual laziness (read: xenophobia) prevalent in American society. Most other nations have mandatory English requirements, why shouldn't Americans have to learn a foreign language as well? This is akin to the "I'm never going to have to use <insert disliked subject here>, therefore I shouldn't learn it" bullshit that you hear middle-schoolers say. It is childish. Language opens new worlds.

 

[RaikouLover]

It's not really xenophobia, its cold blooded realism. America is the most powerful nation in the country, that is why other citizens want to come here. That is why other countries have mandatory English requirements. Americans should not have to conform to other countries languages on American soil. If I am a CEO of an American companay in America, and one of my employees' first language is spansih, I shouldn't have to know Spanish just to interact with that person. That is bullshit, and I don't see anything wrong with that. Now, if I were going to another country, than I would have to learn that countries language just as I would have to be aware of their laws and customs.

Is it Americo-centric (made up word), yes. Is it egotistical of a country. Yes. But it is the cold reality of the situation in my opinion.

 

[Tangerine]

Americans should not have to conform to other countries languages on American soil. If I am a CEO of an American companay in America, and one of my employees' first language is spansih, I shouldn't have to know Spanish just to interact with that person.

Why would you hire the person in the first place if you two couldn't communicate? That's a contrived example and you know it, lol. People will have to learn English if the want to succeed and get around and communicate with others - but no one has the right to force them to do anything.

 

[Layell]

It's really not a big deal, IMO you should have just made a joke aobut it like, "what's with the secrecy, you guys planning a robbery or something?". They would have probably gotten the hint.

But you must understand that sometimes it's eassier to express meaning or emotions in ones own language, which is why it may be preffered.

For example in this competetion I was in there was a French judge, who couldn't express his opinion, so he spoke in French, luckily many of the people could also speak French so we understood what he meant.

 

[Kingdrom]

I'd have to agree, I find it kind of rude to start a different conversation in front of other people in a different language, especially when you are fluent in English. While the constitution protects our right to speak however we please, it doesn't always make it socially acceptable. Considering the situation in the dining hall, the Haitian probably realized that it was loud and speaking in his native language was the best way to get the other person to hear. Other languages are easy to pick out of a crowd of people simply because it sounds like jibberish to those who aren't versed in said language.

Speaking in a different language around people who don't understand it doesn't necessarily have bad implications. They may be acting in a respectable way by shielding you from their problems, whether they are about you or not. The elevator situation is explainable too. One must be paranoid to think that since people are talking in another language, that they are talking about something dangerous. Most of the time, with strangers around, people will not want to be making a bad impression, and speaking in a foreign tongue is a way to bypass that. I know that there are many situations where I wish i could ignore a loud conversation going on next to me.

The Haitians shouldn't have to apologize, either, unless they were talking about pertained to you. To think that there should be an official language of America isn't a bad idea in itself, but what would it really accomplish? If someone doesn't speak English, they are going to have a hard time living in America until they learn it. Part of America's appeal to others is that they can pursue their dream without giving up their traditions, of which language is a part of. Declaring an "official" language doesn't fix much.

Learning a language is by no means a waste of time, especially a language as large as French. Forcing others to speak in English just because one can't understand what they are saying would make one seem rather intolerant and belligerent, especially when they aren't talking to you. In every other country, people are taught English in schools. It's not really that hard to learn a different language, and the possibilities are virtually endless.

Originally Posted by Fat ControllerOfFlames
For example in this competetion I was in there was a French judge, who couldn't express his opinion, so he spoke in French, luckily many of the people could also speak French so we understood what he meant.

This too.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

My school is full of Asian students and I often hear conversations between them in their native tongue. I always ignore them seeing as how probably 99% of the time it's not my business, but I can see how someone would see that as impolite.

Still, I don't see what the big deal is. Maybe it's slightly impolite to have a conversation in another language in a crowd or another highly personal setting (a crowded elevator comes to mind), but that might just be because of the nature of having a conversation in a crowded place, not necessarily the language spoken. In the case that RaikouLover presented, I would consider it rude that they talked across the table like that, not that they spoke in their native language.

Is it really that offensive to be left out of a conversation?

 

[Jenigmat]

I just want to point out that just because you live in the U.S., if you're bilingual, and someone else is also bilingual, and can speak your native language, sometimes you just feel the need to talk to them. It helps you establish a cultural bond with them, and makes you feel a little bit more at home. Hell, I grew up in the U.S. for most of my life, and I still have people I don't speak in English with. It isn't always like people want to leave you out of conversations.

 

[akuchi]

America the most powerful nation in the whole country? Fuck me, thats impressive.
Sure, it's impolite if you're doing it in a gathering of other people when it's not for a good reason (like translation for someone who isn't fluent), much in the same way whispering is in groups of other people. If they're not in a group situation? Get over yourselves. They've got a different language. Why should they feel they have to converse in a tongue they're not completely comfortable in, other than to ease your blatant xenophobia? When I'm in France, and I'm talking to my boyfriend, I don't speak French. To attempt to do so would be daft.

 

[Warthog]

It can be a little annoying to me but not to the degree you discussed. Just let the dudes speak in their own language. If they aren't speaking to you it shouldn't matter.

 

[Onii]

I disagree with the people who say that it's about "being comfortable" with one language over another, or that "it's none of your business". The point is, it's rude because they're deliberately isolating the rest of the "group". In other words, it's the situation (group of people sitting together) that made talking in another language rude, not the talking in another language per se. That said, even if it is bad manners, to link it to national security is quite far-fetched.

 

[RaikouLover]

Thanks for the responses guys.

What you said Onii,

The point is, it's rude because they're deliberately isolating the rest of the "group". In other words, it's the situation (group of people sitting together) that made talking in another language rude, not the talking in another language per se.

is 100% true, and is probably why some of us get so offended. That is probably the explanation of why I get offended.

 

[Polis4rule]

It probably was the private conversation in a public place combined with the fact that it was in another language that made it so offensive.

 

[Vineon]

Call me impolite, I wouldn't mind speaking french to another french person even within a group of mostly english people. I would likely still instinctly speak english when there are more english people I know around, however.

I would also take it as an insult to be asked not to. Something quite like when English Canadians used to tell the Québécois to 'speak white' when they spoke french in public. Gladly, we don't see that happening anymore and if anything.... now the opposite is happening..

 

[Brain]

Let's call things by their names. RaikouLover, what you are proposing is fascism. A fascist state is one which puts the collective interest of the "nation" before the freedom of individuals. May be it race or language, the principle is identical. It is a dangerous slippery slope that we shouldn't tread on. You are free to find it rude for someone not to speak English in public in America. In some situations, it certainly is. Immigrants should make an effort to integrate themselves to the surrounding culture out of respect for their hosts. But to enforce this through legislation is simply unacceptable. If you think that people are rude, the best you can do is to politely tell them to stop. If they ignore you, it's their right. Too bad, deal with it.

The real constitutional right means you can say whatever you want as long as it does not slander or threaten the government or is a threat to this nation's security. This is my biggest "point" if you will in my argument, as someone who talks accross the table but is fluent in english as I mentioned in what happened only has one reason to do so: they don't want everyone else to hear what they are saying.

So what? Are you saying all conversations should be made public? Have you never told anyone a secret or anything that you wouldn't want anybody else to hear? Should we ban whispering to another person's ear? Passing messages? How about banning cryptography while we're at it?

I remember being in an elevator once with twelve other people, and normally in elevators everyone is silent. Yet in this elevator, three english speaking people got on the elevator with me, and simply continued to have their own private conversation in spanish on the elevator. So my instinct in these situations without contradicting this constitutional amendment is that this can be perceived as a security threat. As someone who doesn't speak another language, I have no way of knowing if I could be plotted to be killed, talked about, or someone else being plotted to be killed.

How often do you think this happens? If I'm plotting to kill someone I won't speak out loud about it even in a foreign language, on the off chance that somebody understands what I'm saying. Your statement is worth nothing without evidence that the situation you describe ever happened. How many crimes do you think you'd prevent with this law? If people can't plot a crime by speaking spanish in public (which they probably don't in the first place) then they will do it by speaking spanish in private, which increases their odds of success. And how many crimes do you think this law would cause disgruntled people to commit? Your argument is senseless.

Its the same concept as if a teacher catches you talking during an exam. Whether you are cheating or not, the teacher has no way of knowing, and must assume the worst for the security of the test. I understand that such measures are not enforceable, but from a principle standpoint I don't think my stance on this situation is too farfetched.

When somebody talks during an exam the odds are good that he'd be cheating. If two random chinese guys talk in chinese the odds that it's about some criminal activity are pretty fucking low and even if it was, they'd probably do it in english regardless.

 

[IcyMan28]

I think that while your friends to have the right to speak in their native tongue, it is poor...tact, I guess, to simply switch over in the prescence of others who don't speak the language. If nothing else, it could imply that they are talking about the other people, and even if that is not the case, they are being purposely left out of the conversation. IMO, the polite thing to do would be to call the other person aside and continue the conversation elsewhere before returning to the table.

 

[Polis4rule]

Call me impolite, I wouldn't mind speaking french to another french person even within a group of mostly english people. I would likely still instinctly speak english when there are more english people I know around, however.

I would also take it as an insult to be asked not to. Something quite like when English Canadians used to tell the Québécois to 'speak white' when they spoke french in public. Gladly, we don't see that happening anymore and if anything.... now the opposite is happening..

Don't even understand that at all, wow...

 

[Vineon]

A fascist state is one which puts the collective interest of the "nation" before the freedom of individuals. May be it race or language, the principle is identical. It is a dangerous slippery slope that we shouldn't tread on. Immigrants should make an effort to integrate themselves to the surrounding culture out of respect for their hosts. But to enforce this through legislation is simply unacceptable.

It is all fair and respectable considering there are no immigrant to my knowledge that don't make changing country an educated life altering choice. Immigration is not a process that is forced upon them. A country has full rights to legislate on languages and in my opinion should if its cultural preservation demands it. Sure that is putting "the collective interest of the "nation" before the freedom of individuals" but are there many laws that don't?

Should laws into place not fit would-be applicants, they are free to look elsewhere, this is a big wide world. If they made the choice to come, it is because they also made the choice to abide to those laws and therefore it is hardly a breach of freedom rights. Not anymore than carefully selecting and rejecting immigrants based on set criterias, which is something all countries do. Making big changes to language laws after we've attracted them would be however.

 

[y2zipper]

To be honest, I think it's a little paranoid for you to believe that all conversations should be public or be in English, but I don't think that's where you're coming from.

Living in Califonria, I've been in the same situation as you a lot. I've been in situations at school where I'm hanging out with a couple of my Asian friends and they talk to each other in their native tongue, and I've even worked in call centers where the majority of employees are bilingual and talk to each other in Spanish. I can understand that you'd feel isolated in these situations, but I think it's overboard to say they were disrespectful.

People talk in more than one language for all types of different reasons: maybe they're more comfortable talking to each other in that language, maybe the conversation is private and they don't want you to hear what they're saying, or maybe they're just culturally different from you and weren't aware that you were bothered by their habit.

You talk about a melting pot and all and that's nice, but that term doesn't accurately describe what America actually is. The term salad bowl describes it more, as I'll explain:

Melting Pot refers to a concept where you blend a bunch a bunch of cultures together and the result is one brand new culture. Think about it like a smoothie. You have your strawberries, bananas, ice cream, milk, etc... and you put all the ingredients together in a blender and blend them. After you blend it together and finish the smoothie, it's impossible to pick out a banana or a strawberry while you're drinking it.

Salad Bowl - Think about a salad. You have lettuce, tomatos, cucumbers, cheese, bacon bits, carrots, etc... You mix them all together to make a salad. After the salad is done, you can still pick out lettuce, tomatoes, carrots, etc... This model more accurately reflects the culture of America.

Now that I've gone completely off the original topic, I guess my main point is that contrary to your belief, people who come to America don't have to learn the language or culture. Sure, they can assimilate into mainstream American life, but a lot of the time people will keep elements of their own culture. IMO, that's what makes America different than every other country.