I don't get why being an atheist can be a big deal, I don't see what can be wrong about it. I've always been an atheist and nobody cared about it. I usually don't talk with religious people but still... If a "Christian" bashes you because you're an atheist, he/she an idiot, it's simply stupid and not even from Christianity to hate on other people's belief. I'm sorry if they include your family/friends but that's what I think.
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Serious The Atheism/Agnosticism thread
- Thread starter Adamant Zoroark
- Start date
Ides_of_March
I think many people turn to religion in areas that lack other social services/support networks. In places where governments are underfunded, poverty is high, politicians don't care, and non-profits don't operate, churches provide many of the services that these entities would provide in 'secular' areas. This also leads to poor people voting conservatively even though it isn't in their economic interest to vote for conservative policies, but when you're poor and the state doesn't care, the church will still feed you if you go on sunday.
I think many people turn to religion in areas that lack other social services/support networks. In places where governments are underfunded, poverty is high, politicians don't care, and non-profits don't operate, churches provide many of the services that these entities would provide in 'secular' areas. This also leads to poor people voting conservatively even though it isn't in their economic interest to vote for conservative policies, but when you're poor and the state doesn't care, the church will still feed you if you go on sunday.
That's a very good observation. And the data supports it. However, there are many other factors that contribute to the secular behavior of politics in these countries. A major one is emphasis on literacy in science and math in the education system. You don't see the writers of European textbooks sneaking in nonsense to give a hand to creationists' arguments. CERN is the Mekkah for scientific research right now and the region is reaping the educational benefits. While certain social structures that are in place overseas would be long overdue in America, I believe we need to confront the cultural aspect head on through education as I believe intervention through economics may cause more problems than it solves in some cases. The grit of that argument is for another thread though.
Also, It's worth noting that the reason a majority of religious people vote conservatively is because the candidate paints him/herself as a beyter servant of god than his opponent, despite Jesus himself being a fervant liberal.
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I feel like so many other people are like this but I was raised as a fairly religious Catholic, but I am now beginning to question all of my beliefs. I definitely don't believe strictly by the bible because I think it is ridiculous IMO, but I still don't know if I believe in an all powerful being who looks over us and takes us to an afterlife. I am a person who loves science and who believes in the Big Bang and such but the more I think about it, the more questions come up. What caused the Big Bang? Some say that it was an infinitely small point that exploded but how did that get there? Some say that the Universe is oscillating and has always been and will always be. But when and why did it start? I know that we will probably never know the true answers to these questions but is it possible that some force that we can't even comprehend started all of this? This is obviously not the God that is believed in a traditional sense but maybe there is some type of God. I know this might be a confusing post but I just want to get a better sense of what other people feel.
I don't really want attack you, but I feel I have to address this common misconception
The "big bang" is more comparable to a balloon expanding than an explosion overall.
As for the cause, who knows, but IMO its more intellectually honest to say you don't know. I don't think it is unknowable either, some scientists are working hard at things like the string hypothesis, so who knows, we might know the cause of the big bang with out lifetimes.
There was no explosion, that implies that there was something for it to expand outward into. The big bang its self is the universe and that's not just matter, no that includes space as well. The big bang was the expansion of the very space that we live in (and fun fact its still expanding!). The point of view that you see in a big bang on science shows it a literal fiction, you can't have a perception of the universe from outside the universe, outside of our universe is literally nothing, not even empty space. If you were to travel back in time to see the big bang, you would be inside of it, because that's the only space that exists for you to occupy.
The "big bang" is more comparable to a balloon expanding than an explosion overall.
As for the cause, who knows, but IMO its more intellectually honest to say you don't know. I don't think it is unknowable either, some scientists are working hard at things like the string hypothesis, so who knows, we might know the cause of the big bang with out lifetimes.
Thank you for not attacking me lol, I know this thread could get heated pretty easily. Also thanks for your reply, I feel like I have a better understanding now.
HBK
Subtlety is my middle name
I was born and raised in a catholic family and I was a believer for most of my childhood but I've been an atheist for 2 years now. I too am a "closet atheist" because my mother is very serious about religion and it would make my life a living hell if I were to tell her. My father wouldn't care because he's an asshole but that's an issue for another thread. The sad reality is that I am forced to pretend that I believe in god and attend mass every sunday. However, I just have to wait until I can afford a place of my own to be free from this prison.
I ceased to believe in God because most of the things that I asked God to do would never manifest. My father is an insensitive, judgmental and arrogant jerk who has scarred me for life and as a child, I would cry myself to sleep. I would constantly ask God, "Why ? Why do I have such a horrible father when all my friends have such wonderful fathers ? What have I done to deserve this ?", etc. And, as I matured, I also began to note the ridiculousness of every miracle and parable in the Bible. I noticed that, in life, a lot of bad things happen to good people even when they've done nothing to deserve it. Millions of people die of starvation and diseases every year, terrorist attacks etc. Whenever my mother prayed for something and it would not come to pass, she would make excuses to explain why it didn't happen. This, and my psychological education in high school, led me to realize that God is nothing but an imaginary guardian that some people create in their minds so that they can feel safe, avoid hyper stress or depression and have the confidence to overcome life's greatest obstacles. Other people do it because they are lonely or have unfulfilled lives; they believe that they have been chosen by God to spread the "Good News" and that he loves them very much. It gives them a purpose and makes them feel useful. I believe that such people find it reassuring to believe that there is some supernatural force watching over them, protecting them and fighting their battles for them.
I ceased to believe in God because most of the things that I asked God to do would never manifest. My father is an insensitive, judgmental and arrogant jerk who has scarred me for life and as a child, I would cry myself to sleep. I would constantly ask God, "Why ? Why do I have such a horrible father when all my friends have such wonderful fathers ? What have I done to deserve this ?", etc. And, as I matured, I also began to note the ridiculousness of every miracle and parable in the Bible. I noticed that, in life, a lot of bad things happen to good people even when they've done nothing to deserve it. Millions of people die of starvation and diseases every year, terrorist attacks etc. Whenever my mother prayed for something and it would not come to pass, she would make excuses to explain why it didn't happen. This, and my psychological education in high school, led me to realize that God is nothing but an imaginary guardian that some people create in their minds so that they can feel safe, avoid hyper stress or depression and have the confidence to overcome life's greatest obstacles. Other people do it because they are lonely or have unfulfilled lives; they believe that they have been chosen by God to spread the "Good News" and that he loves them very much. It gives them a purpose and makes them feel useful. I believe that such people find it reassuring to believe that there is some supernatural force watching over them, protecting them and fighting their battles for them.
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I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but are you also an anti-theist? You seem to believe that no God exists, definitively, from what I am reading. Or are you just saying that the common notions of Gods which people hold just have no real weight outside of making them feel happy. Just curious honestly, as I do not believe that no God exists.
HBK
Subtlety is my middle name
Yes, I do believe that God does not exist and have drawn this conclusion based on my personal life experiences. Although there was no malice intended against believers on my part, I do hate people who force their beliefs on others (like my mother) and who refuse to accept the beliefs of other people no matter how outlandish or nonsensical they may seem to believers. To me, that is just rude. And from what I've seen, if God does exist, he definitely isn't the loving and caring one that is portrayed in the Bible. He probably doesn't give a shit about good/bad values and deeds. Again, no offense here, just explaining my personal theories. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
EDIT: Just wanted to point out that, from the moment that I became an atheist, I actually felt relieved that God did not exist. Because it meant that I did not have to follow all the do' s and don't s of Catholicism and that made me feel like a great burden had been lifted off my shoulders. It meant that I was free to do whatever I wanted. And as a result, I'm living a much happier life now.
EDIT: Just wanted to point out that, from the moment that I became an atheist, I actually felt relieved that God did not exist. Because it meant that I did not have to follow all the do' s and don't s of Catholicism and that made me feel like a great burden had been lifted off my shoulders. It meant that I was free to do whatever I wanted. And as a result, I'm living a much happier life now.
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It must be difficult for you to respond to questions of the religious then, as if someone tells you that your belief in no God is no better than someone who believes in a God, you honestly have to respond as yes. I am actually rather interested in this, how do your maneuver yourself in those kind of debates?
A side note, but in work I as thinking how the Anti-theist position is much harder to definitely prove than any theist position, as to prove no God exists, one would have to have absolute knowledge of everything in existence, while for theism, all that has to happen is a God coming down.
A side note, but in work I as thinking how the Anti-theist position is much harder to definitely prove than any theist position, as to prove no God exists, one would have to have absolute knowledge of everything in existence, while for theism, all that has to happen is a God coming down.
The non-theist side has some powerful arguments in its armamentarium (namely the problem of evil, argument from non-belief, and the efficacy of methodological naturalism), it could exploit, and they are often more informed than most theists. While I was an agnostic, I was often unimpressed with the quality of religious apologetics, feeling that I could easily counter their arguments, and even easily the theists who regurgitate the arguments without any underlying understanding of the philosophy or science behind them. I still derive some delectation in critiquing and dismantling malformed apologetic arguments, and this skepticism is quite consistent with my mild fideism.
I don't think religious debates should focus on one's personal reasons for believing or disbelieving God, although the faithful, myself included, have our testimonies detailing how God has impacted our lives; such arguments should be analytic and abstract in nature. One should abjure some judging the character of other people and just focus on addressing their arguments.
Happy All Saints Day everyone, even if it is inappropriate on this thread, but it is my favorite Holy Day of Obligation. :)
HBK
Subtlety is my middle name
No one has ever said that to me yet but I don't think that the fact that I don't believe in God's existence is similar to the beliefs of, well, believers. I take no joy in saying that god doesn't exist. Nor do I rely on it to get me through tough times. I just accept it as a fact of life. I do not celebrate it like they do. It's not that I don't believe in god just because it gives me freedom. I don't believe in god because I have seen nothing that would convince me of his existence.
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I had a similar attitude as you did as an agnostic, and while I initially took some pride about being an agnostic since it indicated some degree of independent thinking to be free from dogmatic tradition, I realized that atheism/agnosticism did not afford me any material gain, political power, or sense of peace. It was just an intellectual position I arrived at through some deliberation and I had to accept the consequences of it in order to live out my life until its cessation and oblivion at death. But like the faithful and all other humans in general, you had certain personal experiences that made strong impressions on you about the existence/absence of a benevolent personal God, and you experiences made it difficult for you to sincerely believe in God while in contrast the faithful's experiences reinforced their faith. I am not saying your position on the existence of a deity was entirely driven by your subjective experiences nor I am trying to dismiss the significance of your experiences, as you may had some credible arguments to counter various theistic arguments and perhaps you were not influenced by erroneous cognitive biases such as confirmation bias as other believers are, but your expieriences still had a significant role forming your stance on religion.
Even as a Catholic, I am not in a constant euphoric state though, nor do I have contempt over others who do not share my religious identity; more often, I am in a state of shame (not guilt) when I reflect upon my own sinfulness and at times I often had to forgo receiving communion because I fear my soul is not in a "state of grace". Despite this, I always maintained the faint hope that through God's mercy through the sacraments and purgatory I would eventually experience the consummated joy of the beatific vision (which is why All Saints Day is my favorite day), so my faint beacon of hope prevents me from experiencing spiritual despair.
Idk, I find these kind of arguments fall when you consider non-Abrahamic Gods. Thor for example is a God perfectly compatible with the "problem of evil," as Thor does not have omnipotent, omnipresence, ect, he is just a powerful dude. Although yes, I do consider Abrahamic Gods logically impossible as presented. I honestly don't understand why they try to present them as such, for example, if he was not all powerful or not all knowing, but still a pretty powerful and wise God that tries his best, why then is he not adequate for your faith?
I think it stems from the fact that the inherent dogma dictates that he is supposed to be infinitely superior to all other ideas of supreme beings, so believers simply make him out to be inconceivably better at everything than anyone can comprehend, regardless of the logical fallacies that go with it. It's kind of like making him as marketable as possible to those who would consider him as a deity.
i was never raised with any particular religion (because my dad is cool like that) so i developed my own views on the matter. i don't really like religion, namely christianity, but i can see the good in it as well. lots of good people i know are christian, who don't stand for hate or anything like that. though, my whole family pretty much thinks i'm going to hell, so they treat me like i'm a cancer patient on my way out. i don't really appreciate that, but i've realized lots of christians just want to save their family and friends, because it's what they believe.
I was raised in a Christian home and it was generally positive and happy. After a year away in college I realized I didn't need religion, a relationship with God, nor any type of theistic involvement. I spent the first two years really wrestling with it, listening to every Christopher Hitchens youtube video I could find (wow can he make a strong argument). I read as much Christian literature as I could too to try to keep the faith, but it never made sense to me when I thought about it with an open mind. I've been a very happy athiest the last five years, I continue to develop and grow as a person. I participate in philosophy discussions and love that so many people are naturally ethical and moral even without religion.
If there is one thing that the Pokémon anime taught me, it taught me that one can be moral without religion because despite Ash Ketchum's secular orientation, he is nevertheless a paragon of morality and compassion, especially concerning his relationships with his friends and Pokémon. Ash's purity of heart is one reason why I admire him, and it is something that few people in the real world possess, whether they are religious or irreligious.
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You are indeed correct: it is certainly possible to be a moral person without explicitly basing one's morality on a revealed religion since humans have the sentiments for compassion and sympathy and the cognitive faculties to contemplate the consequences of a potential course of action. The exercise of these faculties would render one sensitive and aware of human suffering and at least provide some inhibition from acting in a way that would likely inflicting suffering on another human. There are indeed benevolent secular men and women who exhibit strong virtues and an authentic concern for the welfare of others outside of their immediate circle of family and friends, and also many sanctimonious people who in contrast are myopically self-righteous and hypocritical.
Here is something to think about on the intersection of religion and morality.
http://www.earlymoderntexts.com/pdfbits/hd3.pdfa slightly edited version of Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion said:
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Since I am autistic, I often experience extensive periods of social isolation, even more so when I was an agnostic as a college student who just retreated to home or the library after classes, but now I do have a few Catholic friends in whom I could confide. I do believe that due to my neurotic and introverted temperament, I am not predisposed to be a happy person or engaged in the world in this life, whether or not I am religious; instead of happiness, I seek ataraxia (a state free from any anxiety) and material contentment while maintaining a certain detachment from the world and using my mental faculties to observe it from a distance. At times, I could be like the character Aporia from Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's who was so enveloped with despair concerning the state of the external world, feeling impotent to do anything to assuage prevalent suffering and deprivation, but now I never experience any spiritual despair concerning the salvation of my soul even though I may be in a sullen state of shame while reflecting on my own sinfulness. On a few critical occasions, I do experience periods of felicity and serenity that I attribute to the influence of the Holy Spirit and God's grace to inspire faith, devotion, and piety in me for my earthly journey, but naturally I am rarely a happy state as my default personality is melancholic and pensive and often apprehensive when I experience mild stressors.
I do believe that my vocation, based on my intellectual dispositions and temperament, is to sympathize with sincere skeptics (as I am one as a devotee of Hume) (sympathizing with skeptics is not the same as direct proselytization or presenting apologetic arguments) and be attuned (although my capacity for empathy is quite low) to human suffering. In return, I need to rely on my brothers and sisters in the faith who are of a more cheerful disposition to encourage me when I am in periods of dejection and apathy.
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I wouldn't consider someone who makes his animal friends fight for his personal entertainment to be pure of heart.
The Pokemon universe is actually interesting, it is pretty clear that Gods and demi-Gods exist in their universe: Arcues, Palkia, Dialga, Lugia, Ho-oh; however the religious people in the Pokemon universe seem to be the minority, most of which seem to be some kind of eastern religions where they don't worship the God, but more of just respect it, the only formal Church I can remember is in DP at Hearthome City.
There are however lots of ancient ruins where I remember it indicates that in the past, humans did indeed worship various legendary Pokemon, even the likes of Ho-oh, just for their power.
There are however lots of ancient ruins where I remember it indicates that in the past, humans did indeed worship various legendary Pokemon, even the likes of Ho-oh, just for their power.
It was fatuous remark, but still I regard Ash possessing superior moral character that few people and adults, even among the religious, in the real world could match. And his Pokemon regard the battles as an opportunity to test and prove their strength, and they really enjoy and eager to battle.
Lol this is the atheism thread not Ash thread. Anyway Ash wants to become a pokemon master, he battles, and I never thought there was any difference between him and pokemon poachers/team rocket (who ignored the pokemon that wanted to be caught and taught by trainers and went for those who didnt want to leave, lol)
Back to topic, I basically concluded that religion cannot exist. The attributes given to god are impossible, and hence he can't exist.
Back to topic, I basically concluded that religion cannot exist. The attributes given to god are impossible, and hence he can't exist.
He cant exist going by our limited knowledge. He can exist because our knowledge is so limited.
Eh not quite, just because our knowledge of the universe is limited, that does not mean that anything can exist. Things which are logically impossible (which he is suggestion God is) cannot exist, period.
I do think his statement is flawed though, as I think he is thinking a version of God which is much too inclusive, less powerful God is perfectly possible, as I described earlier in this thread.
I actually had a good God comparison on another forum to an odd perfect number which I will share here later.