The CAP Metagame

[X-Act]

I think that I'm also guilty of what I'm going to type next, so don't take what I'm going to type next personally, as I'm included.

When we create new Pokemon, the arguments about movepool, base stats, abilities and typing are largely based on theorymon. This is rightly so, because, until the Pokemon is fully implemented, we can't say much about it concretely. My attempts to create a mathematical framework where things can be interpreted mathematically (and hence with no need of testing) are with this in mind. Unfortunately, I have only managed to do this completely for base stats so far. So base stats can be talked about rather solidly prior to testing of the Pokemon, but, unfortunately, little else can.

An important part of knowing what you're talking about when discussing a Pokemon is having a good grasp of the metagame involved. Unfortunately, speaking about myself, I lack very much in this department, so I rely on statistics to keep me up to date. The latest CAP statistics, for example, list Skarmory as not even being OU, so I can reason that it isn't being used for some reason or another, and the recent common moveset thread lets me know of what moves are being used commonly, so that I can reason things out better. However, I acknowledge that this is not enough. There's nothing better than experiencing things via playing.

What I'm saying is that having a good knowledge of the metagame makes you suggest better things and vote better. And the best way to know the metagame is to play in it. This also makes the metagame more stable. Having more players playing a game makes its metagame less haphazard, because if you, say, use Fidgit against 5 players and sweep with it, it doesn't mean that Fidgit is broken... it only means that those 5 players weren't prepared for it. If you use the same team against 300 other players and sweep with it, now that's different.

So we would killing two birds with one stone if new players play on the server: the metagame would stabilise much better with more players, and more players would know their stuff while voting in the subsequent CAPs.

I would also appreciate if a member here would post a short guide about the CAP metagame: what is used, differences from the CAP metagame to the standard one, maybe even different movesets, etc. so that new players can start playing on the server having at least read _something_ about our metagame.

 

[beej]

I would like to say that in the previous usage statistics, Absol was technically OU because of a few people using them. Maybe keeping our eyes on the metagame while making the CAPS will help you do this, but we'd really appreciate if you were to come on our server. We need way more people because about 25 a day does not provide accurate usage statistics.

 

[gorm]

statistics are less meaningful when you dont have the userbase x-act you know this.

we need more users, and there happen to be alot of people who want to fix plat metagame more than the cap metagame.

i think the choice is simple

 

[Lawman]

I would also appreciate if a member here would post a short guide about the CAP metagame: what is used, differences from the CAP metagame to the standard one, maybe even different movesets, etc. so that new players can start playing on the server having at least read _something_ about our metagame.

I can't say much for anything else (though most points i agree with), but I feel this is one of the most important points in your post, X-Act. I plan to start battling in CaP again, but I haven't a clue where to start. Am I supposed to make a team with no knowledge of how the CaP Metagame differs from from Plat? I feel that if an introduction of sorts is made for newer players, then people would be more open to playing on the server instead of being intimidated by a metagame they don't know much about.

 

[Adonzo]

statistics are less meaningful when you dont have the userbase x-act you know this.

we need more users, and there happen to be alot of people who want to fix plat metagame more than the cap metagame.

i think the choice is simple

so what? we scrap the 5 existing CAPs and the months of hard work and pretend they never happened... so we can make more CAPs? more CAPs that will likely continue to be ignored by a large portion of the userbase simply because they prefer the "pure", nintendo-stamped metagame? the very nature of pokemon creation projects makes them unpopular competitively because they are usermade

the current CAPs aren't going anywhere and the current CAP process will likely see little change as a result of EVO. you succeeded in delaying EVO so that it isnt an absolute shit show (which i agree with), but i think your sorely mistaken if you think you will change CAP as a whole

 

[gorm]

so what? we scrap the 5 existing CAPs and the months of hard work and pretend they never happened... so we can make more CAPs?

more caps, better caps with a bette rprocess and more interested poeple involved not people interested in flavour.

the current CAPs aren't going anywhere and the current CAP process will likely see little change as a result of EVO. you succeeded in delaying EVO so that it isnt an absolute shit show (which i agree with), but i think your sorely mistaken if you think you will change CAP as a whole

we'll see if i am mistaken i guess.

I can't say much for anything else (though most points i agree with), but I feel this is one of the most important points in your post, X-Act. I plan to start battling in CaP again, but I haven't a clue where to start. Am I supposed to make a team with no knowledge of how the CaP Metagame differs from from Plat? I feel that if an introduction of sorts is made for newer players, then people would be more open to playing on the server instead of being intimidated by a metagame they don't know much about.

exactly, but apart from sentimental attachment to the effort spent, its much more efficient (if more difficult) to scrap it all.

 

[Bass]

I want better CAP pokemon that complement the metagame more in the future, but the five that we currently have are part of that metagame, so giving them the axe is unacceptable.

Also, the userbase is a problem, but it's not like we don't have enough contributors. Hundreds of people vote in every poll, but only 20 people at the maximum come on the server each day. This is a problem I have been ranting about for ages, and I agree that this should be addressed.

To be honest, even though very few people play this metagame more than I do these days, writing a guide would be difficult solely because even I have not been able to log enough battles on the server to get an accurate impression of the metagame.

 

[zarator]

I will admit it sincerely: i am a mediocre battler when it comes to effectively playing pokemon in-battle. There are many pokes - like in particular Celebi and Skarmory - who i cant beat without building a team specifically addressed to them, and even then, there are often some very marked weaknesses in every team I build simply because i lack the ability to make up for those holes with prediction and skill in general.

So, with this in mind, I generally rely on the strategy pokedex of Smogon for EVs, for Movesets and especially for the comments, which describe very well how concretely the pokemon fares in the metagame. The point is that the CaP server never did a comprehensive analysis of its metagame, focusing only on the single CaPs, and never revamping each analysis after the release of the next CaPs.

I'll make an example to show what i mean. Lets assume that the real metagame is Adv. Now, CaP starts to throw around, as creations of the community, most of the staple 4th gen pokemon, however, without analyzing how old pokes fare in the new metagame. I'm new, and when i try to build up a team i go to read the strategy pokedex, and here i read that Raikou is "the best special sweeper in the game" and Suicune is "like Jesus" and it will hardly die during rest turns. I trust these bold claims because i see they are valid in the metagame I know more and build a CaP team around , say, Raikou. Then I discover that there are things like Electivire which completely destroys it.

I hope that you got the point. I do not ask you to redo the analysis of each pokemon for CaP. but at least make light on the major differencies. So far what i understoodis that Heatran, Togekiss and Tentacruel are extremely useful, even more than in standard metagame, where staples like Skarmory do not fare well. But i think this is very little compared to what i still dont know. If anyone of the most experienced in-game testers/battlers could teach me something, i'd be very happy. Maybe this will bring much more people to the CaP server - people who, like me, are attracted but at the same time scared by a completely unknown metagame - and, nonetheless, it will maybe make voters more aware and mature

 

[Jhonny]

exactly, but apart from sentimental attachment to the effort spent, its much more efficient (if more difficult) to scrap it all.

That's just plain wrong. After testing out the pokemon for a while, changes are made to them if it's deemed necessary. The Evo project has been frozen because the people that frequent the CAP forum and server have been demoralized enough already.

I just WISH that more people went on the server, because the thing stopping many is that there aren't many people on, which is an ugly circle.

 

[Drakhun]

This is still pokemon, there is an aesthetic component. You will never divorce the two. All games have an aesthetic aspect, even something as simple as chess, because for as many people who look at it from a numberst standpoint and as a pure math problem there are many more who buy ches sets purely for the beauty of the craftsmanship. You also have a subset who are interested in both. That is what CAP is, and in order for it to stay successful at all needs to remain. While yes the big part of cap is the numbers, the flavor is what enables a community, and through the comunity you can create more interest in the numbers.

Unless your the free masons a decrease in accessibility does not equate to long term survival.

 

[tennisace]

IIRC, I started making something like this a while back (Misty even gave Darkie, TAY, and I access to the Metagame Analysis subforum.) The reason we never finished is because we were waiting for the Platinum changes, and CAP 5 to finish.

 

[zarator]

This is still pokemon, there is an aesthetic component. You will never divorce the two. All games have an aesthetic aspect, even something as simple as chess, because for as many people who look at it from a numberst standpoint and as a pure math problem there are many more who buy ches sets purely for the beauty of the craftsmanship. You also have a subset who are interested in both. That is what CAP is, and in order for it to stay successful at all needs to remain. While yes the big part of cap is the numbers, the flavor is what enables a community, and through the comunity you can create more interest in the numbers.

Unless your the free masons a decrease in accessibility does not equate to long term survival.

Drakhun, let me guess: have you ever played chess competitively? have you ever used programs like Fritz to improve your strategy and get the best out of your play? Artistic chess sets are beautiful and so on, but this is material for fans and collectors, not for chess players. Same thing with pokemon. Art and flavour is all good, but this is primarly material for fanboys, not for serious competitors.
I cant understand why you continue to bash about the community. If you want an happy, fanboy community, go on Serebii then. This is Smogon University, and CaP is one of Smogon's research labs. Of course, there is even there a community, but this community is - or at least should be - composed of dedicate competitors, students of pokemon who specialize in pokemon battling. Flavour can be a nice thing, but we cant allow flavour to mess up with competitive goals.

Hope this is clear enough. Hope this was clear enough. Flavour cant be defended in front of competition, at least not here

 

[eric the espeon]

IIRC, I started making something like this a while back (Misty even gave Darkie, TAY, and I access to the Metagame Analysis subforum.) The reason we never finished is because we were waiting for the Platinum changes, and CAP 5 to finish.

Any chance I could help with that when you start?
I already did a little bit in the stats thread, but that was kinda rushed.

Anyway the first thing to do should be to get the CaP analysis improved.
Pyroak is still missing what I think of as its best set by far (I posted it in the Analysis workshop quite a while ago, no change so far) and Revenankh has no mention of Ice Punch on the Bulk Up set (or even other options) even though it allows Rev to take on some of the Pokemon who normally counter it best like Salamence, Togekiss and Zapdos. Fidgit is pretty good though.

 

[tennisace]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44714

Theres a bunch of stuff in here, but this is Pre-Platinum. I'd say wait for the Stratagem Playtest thread and put it all in there.

 

[gorm]

I want better CAP pokemon that complement the metagame more in the future, but the five that we currently have are part of that metagame, so giving them the axe is unacceptable.

i think a real metagame can only be develloped by better stats and more users. if you stick to the norm you aren't exactly helping the future of cap. youre giving the past a nod and i have done that. but you need to let go of what might have been not a worthwhile endaevour as far as smogon as a whole is concerned

if you oppose smogon as a whole, and i dont think anyone serious does, why are you here? i think we need to adhere more to rigorous process. thats just the truth of it, and part of that is starting fresh, kind of like a suspect test redo.

Also, the userbase is a problem, but it's not like we don't have enough contributors. Hundreds of people vote in every poll, but only 20 people at the maximum come on the server each day. This is a problem I have been ranting about for ages, and I agree that this should be addressed.

this is addressed right here and now by scrapping old cap pokemon FOR NOW based on fanboyish process getting precedence over metagame improvement. doing the art poll before movepool is not a valid process i think we can all agree. we can fix process but not past outputs, or at least not as easily.

To be honest, even though very few people play this metagame more than I do these days, writing a guide would be difficult solely because even I have not been able to log enough battles on the server to get an accurate impression of the metagame.

this is a problem and i am addressing it.

I will admit it sincerely: i am a mediocre battler when it comes to effectively playing pokemon in-battle. There are many pokes - like in particular Celebi and Skarmory - who i cant beat without building a team specifically addressed to them, and even then, there are often some very marked weaknesses in every team I build simply because i lack the ability to make up for those holes with prediction and skill in general.

that means nothing for teh fact that you cant appreciate a niche based on pure usage stats and simple thoerymon, eg camerupt/lanturn.

So, with this in mind, I generally rely on the strategy pokedex of Smogon for EVs, for Movesets and especially for the comments, which describe very well how concretely the pokemon fares in the metagame. The point is that the CaP server never did a comprehensive analysis of its metagame, focusing only on the single CaPs, and never revamping each analysis after the release of the next CaPs.

the strat dex is a good map of the metagame
so is the usage stats
so is all of xacts move stats
so is some random users theorymon, even if its wrong. it maps it, its just a bad map and we can tell him WHY houndoom is not a scizor counter EASILY (just an example)

the more we know about the metagame, the more we can help it. thats really it.

[/quote]I'll make an example to show what i mean. Lets assume that the real metagame is Adv. Now, CaP starts to throw around, as creations of the community, most of the staple 4th gen pokemon, however, without analyzing how old pokes fare in the new metagame. I'm new, and when i try to build up a team i go to read the strategy pokedex, and here i read that Raikou is "the best special sweeper in the game" and Suicune is "like Jesus" and it will hardly die during rest turns. I trust these bold claims because i see they are valid in the metagame I know more and build a CaP team around , say, Raikou. Then I discover that there are things like Electivire which completely destroys it.[/quote] yeah that's pretty much it. you cant analyse a metagame without data and that is gonna confuse new users from the start if they have no experience to build on

I hope that you got the point. I do not ask you to redo the analysis of each pokemon for CaP. but at least make light on the major differencies. So far what i understoodis that Heatran, Togekiss and Tentacruel are extremely useful, even more than in standard metagame, where staples like Skarmory do not fare well. But i think this is very little compared to what i still dont know. If anyone of the most experienced in-game testers/battlers could teach me something, i'd be very happy. Maybe this will bring much more people to the CaP server - people who, like me, are attracted but at the same time scared by a completely unknown metagame - and, nonetheless, it will maybe make voters more aware and mature

thats what we're hoping :D

That's just plain wrong. After testing out the pokemon for a while, changes are made to them if it's deemed necessary. The Evo project has been frozen because the people that frequent the CAP forum and server have been demoralized enough already.

im saying id rather start out with something less in need for a change with a reliable framework and the fact is at present the userbase that is experinced in currect cap competitively is too small to overthrow the potential new interested users.

I just WISH that more people went on the server, because the thing stopping many is that there aren't many people on, which is an ugly circle.

stop wishing start doing.

This is still pokemon, there is an aesthetic component. You will never divorce the two. All games have an aesthetic aspect, even something as simple as chess, because for as many people who look at it from a numberst standpoint and as a pure math problem there are many more who buy ches sets purely for the beauty of the craftsmanship. You also have a subset who are interested in both. That is what CAP is, and in order for it to stay successful at all needs to remain. While yes the big part of cap is the numbers, the flavor is what enables a community, and through the comunity you can create more interest in the numbers.

Unless your the free masons a decrease in accessibility does not equate to long term survival.

the asthetic compenent exists but it not as important as the competitive component. if you really think gamefreak gives alot of shit what their art dept puts out (see luvdisc) then you are wrong. they HAVE to appeal to a younger less mature audience. smogon does not

Any chance I could help with that when you start?
I already did a little bit in the stats thread, but that was kinda rushed.

Anyway the first thing to do should be to get the CaP analysis improved.
Pyroak is still missing what I think of as its best set by far (I posted it in the Analysis workshop quite a while ago, no change so far) and Revenankh has no mention of Ice Punch on the Bulk Up set (or even other options) even though it allows Rev to take on some of the Pokemon who normally counter it best like Salamence, Togekiss and Zapdos. Fidgit is pretty good though.

i think ive made enough points to counter act "lets improve the addmitedly fanboy process because we are attachted to the effort we put in

i completely respec the effort and anyone who doesnt is stupid.

but the effort put in on a whole didnt interest smogon enough to be considered competitive and that is proven simply by the lack of users interested in this.

 

[tennisace]

Well then lets make a deal Gorm. Find your better users. Get them to play regularly on the current CAP metagame. After a set period of time we'll vote: keep the Pokemon or start over. Keep in mind that if start over is chosen, TLs would be the current 5 TLs in the same order, because its unfair to us that we worked hard making polls and decisions, and then have it all wiped away.

In the meantime, we need a CAP congress type body, like the Policy Review sub forum. It should be limited access, open only to those who deserve it. What we would do is revision of the policy/Pokemon. It would almost be like the selection panel, except some members would be "elected". TLs would be given permanent seats. This is to prevent what's happening in the Syclant revision thread, where people who have no clue what they're talking about are voting.

I think this is a fair compromise, no?

 

[eric the espeon]

Let me just say this:
You will erase the past CaP's over my dead body.

Revise them if they are too strong, but there is literally no reason to take away many months of work because you don't like it.

If a majority of players who know CaP's process well and understand the metagame (as Tennis outlined) voted for taking them away, I would disagree strongly but accept their vote.

Edit: I asked on the server to see what opinion there is like.
eric the espeon: Who thinks that removing the past CaPs is a bad idea.
Flounder: Me.
Lord Vader: me
Bobtheball4: me
Granight: Me
Beej: Me.
Numbuh214: anyone who likes CAP
eric the espeon: I need to know that people are behind me
Numbuh214: really

Not a single person thought it was even a remotely considerable idea.

And from a convo between Beej and Captain (both well known on the server, Captain is a mod):
Beej says: lol gorm wants to get rid of the past CAPs
Beej says: this is getting hilarious at this point
Captain says: tell him to fuck off

And from a past TL:
Gothic_Togekiss: I support your post Eric.

Look Gorm, Doug and all of us have been stunningly tolerant up to this point. You tried to go against the outcomes of several polls (anyone else would have been infraced, or at the very least had an instant deletion) behaved in an extremely derogatory way towards the community and many members includeing myself and several past TLs, and got the EVO project which otherwise could have done fine cancelled (given the state it was in, due entirely to you, it was the right choice by Doug.).
Don't push it.

 

[Flounder]

Let me just say this:
You will erase the past CaP's over my dead body.

Revise them if they are too strong, but there is literally no reason to take away many months of work because you don't like it.

If a majority of players who know CaP's process well and understand the metagame (as Tennis outlined) voted for taking them away, I would disagree strongly but accept their vote.

Fully agreeing with this.

There is absolutely no reason at all to remove the post and current CAPs.


Gorm, you've come into this project, and asserted yourself as the most knowledgeable person around, and now you're telling us, most of whom have been here for at least 2 months, to outright remove everything that we have created just because you (and I highly emphasize that) think that the current/previous processes were bad.

The existing 4 CaPs, and the up-and-coming fifth were made with a perfectly fine process (though the first two did have some problems and have been since revised) that, while isn't perfect, works. We have no more reason to remove and restart an entire year's work than we would to comepletely scrap the current tier system - "if it isn't broken, don't fix it".

I'm sorry, gorm, but at this point, you're ridiculously out of line from my perspective. What you're doing is essentially the same thing as a country telling the United Sttes to scrap its Constitution and Bill of Rights because another country thinks that it's got a better way of governing. You've come in here and gone against most everything we stand for - primarily our democratic process.

The only way you'd ever get support for this "scrap the CAP" proposition would be to get a bunch of other smogon "higher-ups" and tell them to vote with you, not unlike you did here and here.

 

[beej]

Let me just say this:
You will erase the past CaP's over my dead body.

Revise them if they are too strong, but there is literally no reason to take away many months of work because you don't like it.

If a majority of players who know CaP's process well and understand the metagame (as Tennis outlined) voted for taking them away, I would disagree strongly but accept their vote.

Yes.

Gorm, part of the CAP process is learning through experience, and all of the past CAPs are examples that we can base our work on. I don't see what getting rid of these would accomplish, and it is actually beneficial to have these mons to look back on, to see if we can do a better job next time. At one point a while back, we actually did have somewhat of a CAP process change. This was in the time between Pyroak and Fidgit (our most successful CAP), and not once did the notion of getting rid of Syclant/Revenankh/Pyroak cross our minds. It wasn't perceived as necessary at all, and yes, there is a sentimental value in all of these CAPs. We've spent months on these creations and getting rid of them just like that is going to upset everybody, myself included.

As far as an actual revolution goes, I'm fine with it if we can turn out better results. But as eric said, you will erase the past CAPs over my dead body.

 

[Icy Vegeta]

Let me just say this:
You will erase the past CaP's over my dead body.

Revise them if they are too strong, but there is literally no reason to take away many months of work because you don't like it.

If a majority of players who know CaP's process well and understand the metagame (as Tennis outlined) voted for taking them away, I would disagree strongly but accept their vote.

Edit: I asked on the server to see what opinion there is like.
eric the espeon: Who thinks that removing the past CaPs is a bad idea.
Flounder: Me.
Lord Vader: me
Bobtheball4: me
Granight: Me
Beej: Me.
Numbuh214: anyone who likes CAP
eric the espeon: I need to know that people are behind me
Numbuh214: really
IcyVegeta: me!

Not a single person thought it was even a remotely considerable idea.

And from a convo between Beej and Captain:
Beej says: lol gorm wants to get rid of the past CAPs B
eej says: this is getting hilarious at this point
Captain says: tell him to fuck off

Look Gorm, Doug and all of us have been stunningly tolerant up to this point. You tried to go against the outcomes of several polls (anyone else would have been infraced, or at the very least had an instant deletion) behaved in an extremely derogatory way towards the community and many members includeing myself and several past TLs, and got the EVO project which otherwise could have done fine cancelled (given the state it was in, due entirely to you, it was the right choice by Doug.).
Don't push it.

100% agreed. As I believe we have worked months to adjust to this CAP Metagame and server that we are proud to play in, yet Gorm wants to undermine this whole project. Not tolerable at all. Why should we listen to a person who has been a jerk to us all along anyway?

 

[Time Mage]

Bah, I wanted to stay out of this discussion, but I have to step in to say that I fully agree with eric: Deleting, even temporarily, the older CAPs is an insult to the CAP forum members and contributors. And frankly, it adds to the several insults you (Gormenghast) have already said to the community.

I'm not that active anymore, but I have been very active in the past (both in the forum and in the server) and I still try to vote on all polls and contribute with whatever I can. If previous CAP pokémon are deleted, it's a sure thing I'm leaving the project. The reply to this will likely be "I don't care". Well, I'm not a very well known member, so I'm fully aware that what I do will have little consequences, but at least I'm being consequent with myself. Hijacking the process in EVO, however badly designed it was, was something I didn't like at all. But just considering deleting previous CAPs really offends me. It shows zero knowledge of the metagame, zero respect for it, and zero interest in knowing it better. It's basically saying: "here I am, I'm better than you idiots, and whatever I think is the right thing".

 

[Darkflagrance]

The problem with restarting a metagame, of course, is that it assumes a current universal metagame that all people desire to approach, which is not the case.

If we want to fix the "current competitive metagame" where would we start, considering that Order of Operations etc are devoted to changing the current metagame? Would we return Garchomp, Manaphy, Latis, etc in hopes of creating pokemon to counter them? Would we use UU or Ubers as the base power level for the new metagame? Would it even be better to scrap all of Nintendo's pokemon and create a whole new Smogondex designed to be completely balanced?

If we really wanted to fix the metagame and create the ideal environment where competitiveness is emphasized, we should not do CAP the way we are going about it now, creating 1 new pokemon every six months to address a random, screwy, imperfect environment, but start completely afresh and design from the ground up.

Otherwise, there is no reason to scrap what we already have, since it is taken for granted that we will be using the original 486. Because of the imbalances already present in Nintendo's system with regards to flavor etc, there is no competitive reason to even use Nintendo's pokemon if we want to go that far. And if we do use Nintendo's pokemon, there is no reason to argue that we should abandon the already present CAP pokemon because approximately the same amount of competitive and flavor considerations when into them as well.

To sum it up: It is unjustifiable to delete old CAP pokemon even based on competitive reasoning.

 

[Time Mage]

And if we do use Nintendo's pokemon, there is no reason to argue that we should abandon the already present CAP pokemon because approximately the same amount of competitive and flavor considerations when into them as well.

I'm pretty sure that CAP pokémon have way more competitive reasoning than official ones. WAY more.

 

[Captain]

DougJustDoug: The CAP pokes aren't going anywhere -- you can write that in stone.

The quick answer to anyone wanting to get rid of old CaPs.


Granight: Gorm is pushing it x10 more then Aldaron

Seriously, Gorm, at this point, it's apparent you are an ass who has no respect for the regulars of CaP. Don't bother us again until you've become a better person.

if you oppose smogon as a whole

Don't even think about bringing it up. CaP is not some antismogon worm that hates smogon and somehow got on the Smogon forums. the CaP section basically says smogon sponsors CaP and that CaP has no problem with smogon as a whole. However, that doens't give a badge member or pretty much anyone the right to randomly come in here and totally insult or troll us. You don't own smogon, gorm, in the slightest, so don't pretend going against you is going against smogon as a whole.

 

[eric the espeon]

Ok. Crisis averted.
Doug is on the CaP server right now, he said it is "set in stone" that the old CaPs will stay and is.... not best pleased with Gorm.
If anyone wants to discuss it come to the server.

And I would like to thank everyone who agreed with me and stood up for the spirit of the project and the community we have.
Something this serious by someone who has already been shown to have a surprising influence should not be ignored, and it was not.