The Fall of Stall [OU Joint RMT | Kumar628 + christoko]

[Kumar628]

@animenagai - I can agree how much more useful it is, as DDTar abuses SR so much, it's not even legal in the US. However, Toxic Spikes is a good way to down some threats who aren't immune to it, without them sweeping the entire team; namely, Starmie, Electivire, and Infernape. Starmie and Infernape already have Life Orb to weaken them, and Toxic only adds on. But yes, Stealth Rock can be abused and pushed to unsightly heights in regards to usefulness with DDTar on the team.

@S1edgehammer - *sigh* Here we go again. Magnezone is a trapper. He traps steels and Thunderbolts them. The only other reason he would Thunderbolt is because Roserade is dead, and Starmie is about to spin or something. Considering that it's my ONLY electric-type attack on this entire team, I wouldn't worry about the boost. I have also said that there are two scenarios where I can kill him fairly easily:
#1: Toxic Spikes are up. Electivire comes in on Roserade who has used Leaf Storm (or Scizor's Bullet Punch) and I simply switch to take a predicted hit. that's already 18% HP downed right there. I have switch to Gengar. Gengar uses protect to build up TSpikes damage. He loses I think 18% more HP now; putting him at 64%; more than enough for Shadow Ball to outspeed and KO him. Simple.
#2: As WoOoShoOo!! pointed out, I can keep Roserade alive and come in on a predicted Thunderbolt or Cross Chop, and outspeed and sleep. Because the standard MixVire has 289 Speed (Neutral speed nature + 220 EVs), Roserade outspeeds even max neutral nature MixVires. This means if I take a predicted hit, I can set it to sleep, and let Tyranitar or Gyarados set up (whichever is more of a threat to the team) and KO before he wakes up. The only risk is him waking up earlier than anticipated, which is why (again, as WoOoShoOo!! stated,) I will get a +1 and KO VERY easily. If he has a boost, then there would be a problem, but I will address your next argument and come back to that issue.

I already addressed SR; so, the next one: Heatran > Magnezone. I can definitely agree with this (but I don't agree that Magnezone only handles Scizor, I mean goddamn is he the only steel type people can think of nowadays? Does Bronzong, Metagross, Jirachi, or Heatran all sound similar to you? You mentioned Jirachi and Heatran as very commonly used pokemon in OU. Just saying that you said it but aren't saying it when it comes up again.) because with Stealth Rock, DDTar, and CBScizor (I should update the OP; I will later today or tomorrow) Magnezone is quite the dead weight. Heatran can be a nice back up with extra Toxic support to break walls like Blissey who love coming in on him (however, Clerics would be annoying.) So, I agree with Heatran > Magnezone, but I'll have to consult with christoko, but I'm sure he'll be fine with it as he likes Heatran.
I also agree with Leftovers on Gyarados.

@WoOoShoOo!! - I like that scenario and I hadn't thought of it. Thanks! Also, Trick Room can be an interesting twist (no pun intended) I might test that, actually.

Thanks again for rating! Keep 'em coming! Updates coming tomorrow or maybe later today.

 

[Raikaria]

Actually, you are MixVire weak, and badly so. Electivire without a Motor Drive boost already outspeeds every member of your team except Gengar, and OHKOs all of them easily without letting them so much as get a hit in. If Electivire does come in on Magnezone's Thunderbolt, you're finished. Actually, I'm not at all sure why you have Magnezone, since none of your Pokemon particularly benefit from removing Scizor. I recommend that you switch out Magnezone for Rotom-H (since you still need to cover Gyarados), and Latias for Gengar (better defensive coverage, you don't really want two Ghosts on the same team).

Sorry about the large font, and the format, but I've looked through this thread, and the OP seems to have ignored everyone saying this, even Reachzero, a Super Mod. In your response, you ignored the point I made bold, and assumed that he was talking about if it gets a Motor Drive Boost. Yes, Vire' might not be getting a Motor Drive boost, but against your team, it dosen't need it! Don't talk about Roserade, you stated it's a suicide lead, and it'll be long dead before you know they have Mixvire.

If Gengar is down and out, a Life Orb Mixvire will take out AT LEAST 4 members of your team, all 5 remaining members if Toxic Spikes are not up. If that's not 'Mixvire weak' I don't know what is.

Remember, Scizor is as common as the cold nowadays, and Scizor kills Gengar, no questions asked. So you basically lose against anyone running MixVire + Scizor/Tyranitar/Weavile/Metagross, automatically, without getting a say in. Scizor dosen't need CB to OHKO Gengar, and it's still forced out by Scizor, leaving MixVire alive to fight another day.

In addittion, your team looks weak to a Specially Based Mixape. If Gengar is down, and Gyarados has taken prior damage, Mixape ruins the team. Nasty Plot Mixape, if Gengar alone is down, is basically GG right there. Close Combat kills T-Tar, Flamethrower kills everything else, and Grass Knot/HP Electric does a number on Gyarados if rocks are up at +2, if not an outright KO. I'm sure any prior switching into SR against a +2 Infernape means Gyarados loses.

 

[yond]

@S1edgehammer - *sigh* Here we go again. Magnezone is a trapper. He traps steels and Thunderbolts them. The only other reason he would Thunderbolt is because Roserade is dead, and Starmie is about to spin or something. Considering that it's my ONLY electric-type attack on this entire team, I wouldn't worry about the boost. I have also said that there are two scenarios where I can kill him fairly easily:
#1: Toxic Spikes are up. Electivire comes in on Roserade who has used Leaf Storm (or Scizor's Bullet Punch) and I simply switch to take a predicted hit. that's already 18% HP downed right there. I have switch to Gengar. Gengar uses protect to build up TSpikes damage. He loses I think 18% more HP now; putting him at 64%; more than enough for Shadow Ball to outspeed and KO him. Simple.
#2: As WoOoShoOo!! pointed out, I can keep Roserade alive and come in on a predicted Thunderbolt or Cross Chop, and outspeed and sleep. Because the standard MixVire has 289 Speed (Neutral speed nature + 220 EVs), Roserade outspeeds even max neutral nature MixVires. This means if I take a predicted hit, I can set it to sleep, and let Tyranitar or Gyarados set up (whichever is more of a threat to the team) and KO before he wakes up. The only risk is him waking up earlier than anticipated, which is why (again, as WoOoShoOo!! stated,) I will get a +1 and KO VERY easily. If he has a boost, then there would be a problem, but I will address your next argument and come back to that issue.

I already addressed SR; so, the next one: Heatran > Magnezone. I can definitely agree with this (but I don't agree that Magnezone only handles Scizor, I mean goddamn is he the only steel type people can think of nowadays? Does Bronzong, Metagross, Jirachi, or Heatran all sound similar to you? You mentioned Jirachi and Heatran as very commonly used pokemon in OU. Just saying that you said it but aren't saying it when it comes up again.) because with Stealth Rock, DDTar, and CBScizor (I should update the OP; I will later today or tomorrow) Magnezone is quite the dead weight. Heatran can be a nice back up with extra Toxic support to break walls like Blissey who love coming in on him (however, Clerics would be annoying.) So, I agree with Heatran > Magnezone, but I'll have to consult with christoko, but I'm sure he'll be fine with it as he likes Heatran.
I also agree with Leftovers on Gyarados.

@WoOoShoOo!! - I like that scenario and I hadn't thought of it. Thanks! Also, Trick Room can be an interesting twist (no pun intended) I might test that, actually.

Thanks again for rating! Keep 'em coming! Updates coming tomorrow or maybe later today.

Well ill start with Magnezone. Like i said YOU DO NOT REQUIRE A STEEL TRAPPER WHEN. Your team , save gengar, isnt hurt by steels very much and when i say hurt by steels i mean scizor. (who gyarados nicely counters).

What i want to say is Heatran can take care of rachi, meta, heatran itself, and scizor nicely enough.
I am glad you agree with me on that aspect.

Now for the mixvire weakness.

As Stated above. Without Motor Drive you are still outsped.
If you add this:

Rotom-H @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spe
~ Thunderbolt / Discharge
~ Shadow Ball / Hidden Power Fighting
~ Overheat
~ Will-O-Wisp / Reflect

Over Gengar you wont have as big a problem with him, since rotom can take tbolt hidden power ice/grass and flamethrower nicely.
Though you lose certain speed i do not see it as a problem considering:
You do not
-Lose Electric Stab

You Gain
-A WoW for sweepers who can or will set of on you
A viable counter for mixvire


Now for Roserade
Roserade is clearly a suicide type lead and is useless early on in the game. Not only that, but you are counting on chance to defeat the vire. Say he does get the motor drive boost. He then outspeeds your rade and fire blasts for the kill. Since you dont carry a rapid spinner sash will be broken most of the time to rocks/spikes.
and as i said before

Toxic Spikes doesn't hit as many highly used pokes are you think. (i.e: scizor , gyarados , mence , rachi , heatran , metagross , flygon, latias, gengar, magnezone etc)

Stealth Rock lead celebi is
A. Bulkier
B. A Stealth Rocker, much more threatening in the metagame today.
C. Provides you with leafstorm, but also even more useful moves (i.e Thunder Wave, Leech Seed)

In fact i have decided to post the Top 30 October usages on the Standard Ladder and will bold the pokes not affected by toxic spikes. And will Underline those who are affected by stealth rocks to a considerable amount on damage (considering all on that list are hurt by stealth rocks.)

Scizor
Gyarados
Latias
Rotom(all forms)
Heatran
Salamence
Metagross
Tyranitar
Infernape
Lucario
Jirachi
Gengar
Swampert
Blissey
Starmie
Azelf
Gliscor
Machamp
Vaporeon
Magnezone
Skarmory
Celebi
Flygon
Zapdos
Dragonite
Forretress
Breloom
Kingdra
Empoleon

Hope this helps you any more.

 

[Kumar628]

Well ill start with Magnezone. Like i said YOU DO NOT REQUIRE A STEEL TRAPPER WHEN. Your team , save gengar, isnt hurt by steels very much and when i say hurt by steels i mean scizor. (who gyarados nicely counters).

Yep, figured that out. Now I just need christoko's opinion and I can edit the OP...that is, if he agrees as well.

Now for the mixvire weakness.

As Stated above. Without Motor Drive you are still outsped.
If you add this:

Over Gengar you wont have as big a problem with him, since rotom can take tbolt hidden power ice/grass and flamethrower nicely.
Though you lose certain speed i do not see it as a problem considering:
You do not
-Lose Electric Stab

You Gain
-A WoW for sweepers who can or will set of on you
A viable counter for mixvire

Yea, um, maybe I haven't said this enough, but christoko is quite solid on not removing Gengar. He and Tyranitar are the reason this team was made anyways. I'm sorry if this fails to follow through to you, or if this doesn't follow the RMT forum rules, but this team was based in and around our favorite pokemon. Swampert is a good Electivire counter as well, being totally immune to his STAB, resisting Flamethrower and taking fairly small amounts of damage from Cross Chop, Earthquake, and HP Ice. HP Grass variants would still rip the team, but from the only MixVire I encountered, HP Ice is more popular as well as Earthquake > Cross Chop. Again, I apologize to everyone stressing Rotom, but there is fact that has been said to me many, many, oh so many times:

Electivire, in general, is almost extinct in today's metagame; so much so that everyone fires an Electric attack on Gyarados, Vaporeon, Suicune, and the like, without any second thought of the opponent having an Electivire to grab a Motor Drive boost. I know this because this has been denied by myself so many times to teams that are MixVire weak. So, if I were like any other common player, I would just say, "Why worry about Electivire?" or moreso, "What's an Electivire?" I understand this is ignoarnce, but this is everyone's argument to when I say so. I even suggest Rotom-H, Cresselia, and Swampert, but they don't listen, why shouldn't I do the same when their team is just as weak as mine; weaker, even (with a boost.)

Now for Roserade
Roserade is clearly a suicide type lead and is useless early on in the game. Not only that, but you are counting on chance to defeat the vire. Say he does get the motor drive boost. He then outspeeds your rade and fire blasts for the kill. Since you dont carry a rapid spinner sash will be broken most of the time to rocks/spikes.
and as i said before

Stealth Rock lead celebi is
A. Bulkier
B. A Stealth Rocker, much more threatening in the metagame today.
C. Provides you with leafstorm, but also even more useful moves (i.e Thunder Wave, Leech Seed)

In fact i have decided to post the Top 30 October usages on the Standard Ladder and will bold the pokes not affected by toxic spikes. And will Underline those who are affected by stealth rocks to a considerable amount on damage (considering all on that list are hurt by stealth rocks.)


Hope this helps you any more.

My only problem is how many weaknesses Celebi has. Other than that, it's greatly viable, I will definitely get to testing it.

 

[george182]

As your t-tar has no speed ev's. I would suggest payback over crunch, you may thinl h payback sucks, but it has 100 base power as long as you move last, its not like averalnch or reveneg its different. Payback has 100 base power even if the oppent uses recover, or if they switch and as t-tar is as slow as, its a good option. Its also your most powerful move against swampert and a great move to hit switch ins. It also bluffs a cursing set which is nice. However payback does fail to slower pokes like dusknoir, but he probably wouldnt stay against a choice band payback anyway. Bassically its a much more powerful attack which is 25% more powerful and on a choice bander power should be maximised in every aspect.

 

[Kumar628]

As your t-tar has no speed ev's. I would suggest payback over crunch, you may thinl h payback sucks, but it has 100 base power as long as you move last, its not like averalnch or reveneg its different. Payback has 100 base power even if the oppent uses recover, or if they switch and as t-tar is as slow as, its a good option. Its also your most powerful move against swampert and a great move to hit switch ins. It also bluffs a cursing set which is nice. However payback does fail to slower pokes like dusknoir, but he probably wouldnt stay against a choice band payback anyway. Bassically its a much more powerful attack which is 25% more powerful and on a choice bander power should be maximised in every aspect.

Good thought. However, we've opted for DDTar, but I haven't updated the OP. Most likely tomorrow at this time, if not, tomorrow night.