The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[Chou Toshio]

+2 Infernape? Frankly Nasty Plot infernape sucks. With all the scarf and priority users (not to mention pokemon that are simply faster) Nape is really not pulling off a good N-Plot sweep 95% of the time. Plus, without HP Ice, Dragonite and Salamence become huge issues. Instead of taking the time to Nasty Plot (giving my opponent the chance to switch in a pokemon that forces out nape and wastes the advantage I had), I'd rather just spam Close Combat or Overheat (or Fire Blast I guess . . .), or U-Turn if you have it (may not be as good without Latias around, but you got room for it if Salamence is banned, making HP Ice that much more useless).

huh, that's ironic-- taking out Salamence actually makes mix-nape that much more lethal. You get room for Thunder Punch just for Gyara/Tentacruel, N-Plot or even U-Turn.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

I guess you missed the original point. You said that the reason Salamence shouldn't be Uber is because of "execution." Sure, some random idiot can come in with Kyogre and spam one move and generally wreck entire teams. But Salamence has the same individual potential in BOTH of his sets if they're played smartly.

So that's what an overdominating pokemon does, huh? You realize that describes Salamence to a T, right?

Excellent argument, sir. "I'm right because I say so, and because I say you're a scrub." Think for two seconds, please. If a well placed outrage critically damages your hard DDmence counter, what's going to stop its sweep later? Not powerful without support indeed...


All I'm saying is that execution should not be the deciding factor in Salamence's tiering, as you say it is. The inability of some people to use a weapon doesn't make the weapon safe.

You don't seem to understand the concept of Pokemon battling. So now Salamence is getting off a DD for free, is able to Outrage to severely damage it's main counter, and then sweep again later? Do you actually even battle...?

Of course if you did you'd realize when Salamence picks the wrong move, it normally has to get the hell on out of there, so no it's not overdominating. And have fun taking another 25%.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Either way slowbro cant switch into an infernape's grass knot. But this is not a thread to discuss infernape.

All DDmence does is prove that it is less Uber than it is Uber. DDMence requires you to actually predict to use, and predict to stop. What is one of the most common way of baiting Kingdra? Forcing it to Outrage. Now it brings up real Pokemon battling into the equation. Let's go back to Salamence. You now have to judge base on your opponent's past moves to how he has reacted to other situations. Do you want to Outrage the 70% Swampert now? But what if he brings in a Heatran or Jirachi? And as the Swampert user, do you go right away to your steel type? Or do you let Swampert die and then easily revenge kill it. Salamence makes people battle more. It is healthy for the metagame. It requires knowledge of scenarios and situations.

However this assumes you have a 70% Swampert. And a bulky steel to switch in once the Outrage has been used, one that can KO the salamence.

Which I think is the key to the argument for the banning of salamence, not that it removes prediction from the game, but that it causes such a huge bottleneck at the teambuilding stage.

IE that at the very least, the threat of DDmence (being the most dangerous sweeper in the game) greatly increases the uberness under the support characteristic of mixmence. As it requires enough special consideration to counter reducing your ability to defend a mixmence's attacks.

Either way, DDmence being proof that salamence is not uber is absurd.

Have a nice day.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

DDMence helps the metagame, not hurt it. As far as team building goes, every team will have a weakness to something. There's no denying it. We cannot absolutely counter everything. We remove Salamence and then what? The same thing will still be true, except it turns the metagame more stale. Take a look at suspect atm. Every team is about exactly the same right now. Now go play on the regular ladder, you see team diversity is definitely increased relative to the suspect ladder.

But then again not as many people play on the suspect ladder which shows two things:

They want to use Salamence and don't mind having to face others if they get to use it as well.

Or that they just want to talk about banning Salamence but don't have the credibility to have a voice about it.

If you can't build a team and battle successfully for it, then that's more of a personal problem then a Salamence problem. Though I'm sure everyone's team is already naturally DDMence proof as it is.

And DDNite from a countering perspective is the same as DDMence. We are talking about -countering- here. Dragonite hits just as hard from that end, if not better (Tbolt to prevent from Outraging against Gyara while still hitting Skarm etc). You can talk about revenge killing but that holds true to any boosting sweeper.

 

[Hipmonlee]

If we are talking about countering we should not be. It's only relevant as far as teambuilding goes.

As far as team building goes, every team will have a weakness to something. There's no denying it. We cannot absolutely counter everything. We remove Salamence and then what? The same thing will still be true, except it turns the metagame more stale. Take a look at suspect atm. Every team is about exactly the same right now. Now go play on the regular ladder, you see team diversity is definitely increased relative to the suspect ladder.

Of course we cant counter everything. But there is a specific reason that Salamence is such a significantly greater problem than all the other threats. The sheer power of dragon type moves, which are only resisted by one other type in the game.

The idea that because teams will never counter everything therefore there is no reason to ban anything is just a rejection of the testing process entirely, which is a discussion for some other topic. This topic presupposes that the metagame can be improved by removing or adding pokemon.

If it is the case that suspect ladder is less diverse than standard then argue that point. What is the cause of that? What has removing Salamence done to the metagame that has lead to this sameness..

Have a nice day.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Here's what I see as a summary of the entire Salamence debate:

@DD Mence

Smogonite A: In early game, if Salamence picks the wrong move at the wrong time, its sweep will be stopped and it will have to choose between dying and being forced out. When it gets forced out, it loses 25% to SR next time it comes in.

Smogonite B: If things go right (it's counters get removed and it times its setup right), Salamence sweeps your whole team!

Smogonite A: So what? The same can be said of practically every set-up sweeper.


@Mix-Mence

Smogonite B: This pokemon is capable of raping the whole meta-- it can 2hko everything and has no hard counters.

Smogonite A: Just because you have no counters does not make you uber. 4th gen has always been a game based on smart play and checks. If Mix-Mence picks the wrong moves, it can very well go down without having killed anything. Even if it's very capable of making 1 kill as a wall breaker, it's not capable of controlling which pokemon it kills. Between SR, LO and sand damage (without LO it's not doing enough damage to wall-break, and without sand-support from ttar the hard-earned damage it deals off could end up getting healed away by lefties for nothing), Salamence is likely making that one kill at best-- and this variant is totally screwed late game. Did I mention the SR weak?


@DD Mence & Mixmence

Smogonite B: Yeah, but if I don't know which mence it is, I could really get screwed!

Smogonite A: . . . and that won't happen based on whether or not random pokemon B is carrying Band, Scarf, running mixed, or doing some of its other multiple strategies?

Smogonite B: By using Salamence, you can weaken a bunch of potential counters for Salamence's teammates, therefore allowing said teammates to sweep-- support clause uber!

Smogonite A: Wait a minute, so because pokemon A deals damage to the enemy team by attacking, it is Uber? Because pokemon A kept attacking, weakening the enemy team so then pokemon B could later sweep, pokemon A is Uber? I'm sorry friend, but that is just dumb. Attacking and hurting the enemy is the fundamental strategy of this game. At the start of 4th gen, people threw away the notion of "always having hard counters," because of the sheer number of new threats. In 3.5 months, 5th gen will come out, bringing out a whole bunch of new offensive and defensive power houses, making hard-countering with a 6-mon team even more impossible. Banning a pokemon essentially because "It attacks and hurts things" is just . . . no . . .


At the end of the day, the question comes down to this:

Salamence attacks and hurts things, that is established. But does it hurt things badly enough to be considered Uber?


This question is completely subjective, and really comes down to what exactly you want out of the metagame. In my opinion, no it does not. In my ideal metagame, there ought to be powerful wall-breakers that can break the circle-jerk of resistance-based stall strategy. It's specifically because of that beautiful Dragon STAB resisted by only 1 type that Salamence fits into that ideal better than others.

Is salamence over-powering, too powerful for the meta? No. Is it good for the meta? Yes. Those are my honest opinions.

If you disagree, your reasons ultimately are just as subjective as the ones I have just given.


. . . Ultimately though, september gives up Pokemon Black and White. I am sure there will be so many new pokemon and strategies that all the "on the fence pokemon," from Lati@s to Shaymin-S, Manaphy and even Garchomp will have to be re-examined. In that light, it really doesn't matter whether Salamence is banned now or not.

 

[TheValkyries]

Either way slowbro cant switch into an infernape's grass knot. But this is not a thread to discuss infernape.


However this assumes you have a 70% Swampert. And a bulky steel to switch in once the Outrage has been used, one that can KO the salamence.

Which I think is the key to the argument for the banning of salamence, not that it removes prediction from the game, but that it causes such a huge bottleneck at the teambuilding stage.

IE that at the very least, the threat of DDmence (being the most dangerous sweeper in the game) greatly increases the uberness under the support characteristic of mixmence. As it requires enough special consideration to counter reducing your ability to defend a mixmence's attacks.

Either way, DDmence being proof that salamence is not uber is absurd.

Have a nice day.

I'm just going to stop talking, because I'm saying (or trying to say) the same things as Hipmonlee, just not remotely as concise and clear.

 

[Kaoru_Amane]

Salamence is by no means an unstoppable threat, most Salamence have to deal with being weak to Stealth Rock, Life Orb recoil, Threats forcing it out of battle etc. Scizor can come in with band bulletpunch and revenge kill Salamence. Salamence can be locked into an outrage and revenge killed by a really bulky steel using Gyro Ball, or an ice beam from a bulky water or a Porygon2, all who can survive an outrage or and revenge kill. You can even suprise one with an explosion on the opponents switch sometimes. I never really had much trouble with Salamence...

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

I shouldn't have to explain why there is less diversity between the two metagames. If you're not playing both then really you have no right to actually say anything about Salamence's Uberness or lack of. Condescending or not, this is true. If you do not actively play on both ladders then you do not know what you are talking about.

If I am fighting for the sake of Salamence being kept, and you're not, then you better damn well have the battling stats to back up your claim and defend your stance as well as attacking mine.

So really this is to everyone who wants Salamence banned, how is your Suspect ladder experience?

 

[drownpanda]

Sorry I am new and am still trying to understand this. This Smogon Council, is this how pokemon will be tested for tier placing from now on? Or is this something special for Salamence?

 

[Hipmonlee]

You dont have to explain why there is less diversity - you dont have to post at all.. But doing so would greatly help your position..

But you dont necessarily need ladder experience to pick holes in a flawed argument. It does significantly help when you make claims about the impact changes will have on the metagame however..

But yeah, basically ladder experience is generally the most useful information for a thread like this. Much more so than comparisons of the relative merits of infernape and salamence.

Have a nice day.

 

[Bamce]

Not being able to force the tie is losing, yes, but forcing the tie isn't winning either. A 50% chance of beating a Jirachi or a Flygon isn't very good at all, and if you have a Magnezone or a PursuitTar waiting in the wings switching to that would be a lot smarter.

Essentially the point of my post was that there is exactly one scarfer that solidly beats DNite where it doesn't solidly beat Mence and two scarfers that beat Mence half the time and beat DNite 100% of the time. While that might be significant, the question is "is it significant enough that Dragonite is subtantially slower in common battle conditions and thus unable to sweep". The thing is, both Dnite and Mence outrun everything without a scarf at +1, and DNite only really loses to one Scarfer that Mence can beat 100% of the time, so I'm not seeing any validity in any concerns about its speed.

I also don't have any preconcieved notions about Mence's Ooba/OU status one way or another, especially since I don't play Standard nearly as much as I play Ooba or UU, but given the playtesting I've done so far I just don't see much difference between DNite and Mence, especially not between MixNite and MixMence.

So if i'm reading this right.

Number of scarfers that beat nite 3
number of scarfers that beat mence 1 and 2 halves?
and your arguing about his speed not being a factor?

Especially when most people won't risk the tie if they can avoid it?

 

[FlareBlitz]

I'm not arguing that his speed is not a factor. I'm arguing that his speed is not enough to push him over the edge to Ooba status (assuming Dragonite is not considered Ooba by anyone) because it's not like the difference between Mence and Dragonite is "half of OU", like someone put.

 

[SubVersion]

Why is Salamence always granted perfect prediction, while the checks switching in are always blind and unthinking? Why are the 50% of predictions that Salamence wins talked about endlessly, while the 50% he loses go mostly ignored?

Honestly, the arguments of the pro-Uber side in this debate are becoming alarmingly fallacious. If I see "I chose the wrong counter and my Swampert died to Draco Meteor" one more time then I'm going to explode. That doesn't mean Salamence is Uber, it means you picked the wrong fucking thing. That's your fault. Get better at the game, don't limit the game to pander to your skill level.

I can hear the cries already: "But I can't predict what set he has until he's already used an attack, and by then it might be too late!" Fuck off with this. The turn you switch in your check does not exist within a vaccuum. It is not an isolated moment in which you have no predictive power. Battles are a series of successive "states", each influenced by factors of the previous state, where the only truly blind move you can make is the Pokemon to use as your lead. Before Salamence has even attacked, your current state gives you one very vital piece of information: You know which Pokemon it switched in on.

As soon as you know anything, you can predict. You can look at the Pokemon you have out and decide whether Salamence can afford not to go straight for the kill. You can predict which move he'd use to do that. You can decide if the threat of a Dragon Dance is worth switching in your Scarfer. You can rule out the moves he probably won't use (Outrage and Draco Meteor against a Steel, for example) and switch appropriately. Switching in your check is never a blind switch unless, frankly, you're a fucking terrible player who doesn't bother paying attention.

Sure, sometimes the Salamence player will outpredict you. Sometimes you will switch in your Swampert and eat a Draco Meteor. But that's Pokemon. Sometimes, you will get it wrong.

But then sometimes, Salamence can't afford to not go for that Outrage/Draco Meteor, and your Steel-type comes in to threaten. Sometimes, Fire Blast/Flamethrower is the only real option (DD, Outrage, DM and EQ are all out against Skarmory, for example), and that Swampert switch looks good even if it is a MixMence - and now you've learned its set! These are just simple theorymon examples, for sure, but not any more so than the various "Counter A switches in and gets beaten by Set B" arguments being bandied about. The point of these examples is to illustrate how, despite there being no Pokemon who can beat both of Salamence's common sets, there are plenty of Pokemon that make reliable switch-ins to at least one of its common, individual moves. Even if you find out that your switch-in isn't safe - if Swampert gets hit by Flamethrower you can assume that Draco Meteor is next - at least you know Salamence's set, and the whole "unpredictability" argument ceases to have any relevancy at all.

So drop this stupid argument. Salamence's effectiveness with multiple sets, and the unpredictability that stems from that, are not any reason to believe he's Uber. Salamence is always limited by time, by his opponent, by the battle environment, by the predictable move types that both sets carry, and by the predictive skills of its user. You can always make an informed switch. Getting outpredicted - or being too thick to realize just how much information you've got to work with - means you're just not playing well enough to win. It says nothing about Salamence.

And on a very similar note, the "unpredictability" argument holds even less weight when you consider that more than 50% of Salamence use the Dragon Dance set. Even if you are just shutting your eyes to all context and making blind decisions, simply assuming DDMence will see you beat it more than half of the time. This whole argument is just amazingly dumb.

 

[Scoopapa]

Considering how similar Salamence is to Dragonite, and how Dragonite is generally not considered to be broken, I'm surprised more arguments here don't use Dragonite as an example. Salamence simply doesn't as much in common with the unnamed "other pokemon" that he is constantly compared to (the whole "SD Venusaur sweeps when his counters are removed, too!" argument that's flying around).

Salamence has higher attack than almost anything, and higher mixed attacking stats than everything but Azelf. It also counts a great deal that the base powers of its moves are much higher than any of the other pokemon whose attacking stats are comparable. Don't forget that it enjoys perfect (even theoretically) coverage with three moves and can strike foes from either side of the spectrum even on the DD set. If you're going to compare Salamence to pokemon X, you really should point out how the comparison addresses all of this. Don't forget his resistances and ability - if we assume ease of setup, we may as well compare him to Rock Polish Rampardos. I think any argument that compares Salamence to other pokemon but doesn't account for these issues is inherently flawed.

 

[Shock Trooper]

Salamence does have its share of issues though when playing in the OU metagame. The biggest one is definitely the residual damage factor. Salamence will take 25% coming in from Stealth Rock each time (and Stealth Rock is on at least 95% of teams on the ladder). Unless a choice Mence is being run (which has very defined checks/counters), most Salamence will be running a Life Orb, which loses 10% per turn an attack is used. Couple that with the fact that Salamence's most common teammate is Tyranitar, and you are looking at taking at least 41% residual damage just after 1 turn of attacking. This is the main reason why Scizor developed into one of Salamence's checks/revenge killers. Salamence does get worn down quickly, which really hampers it as a result.

 

[Chou Toshio]

The residual damage issue is especially interesting to look at when considered alongside one of Salamence's fellow dragons, Flygon.

Flygon has SR resistance and immunity to Sand and all ground-based hazards. Aside from the (much less threatening) potential danger of being directly W-o-W'd or Toxic'd, Flygon's almost got his own Magic Guard going. Along with Thunder-wave immunity and a spectacular set of resistances (along with only 2 weaknesses), Flygon's incredibly resilient against everything barring a powerful, direct non-resisted attack. This is what makes it a premier choice user, being able to switch in and out of battle with impunity-- like the energizer bunny, it just keeps going and going.

Compared to Salamence though, Flygon's speed and power are underwhelming to the poing where it pretty much HAS to use choice items to get anywhere--scarf being the most effective generally because that awesome speed is just a pain to deal with when you have to hit it directly to kill it and it is packing STAB Earthquake and Outrage. Still, watching your STAB Outrage do like ~26% against certain bulky water sets can be pretty depressing.

. . . and yet, Scarf Flygon has his time more often then not. It's such a subtle thing, that little transition bugger coming in and U-Turning out all battle, as the opponent's team weakens as time goes on, slowly but surely, while Flygon stays nice and healthy, when suddenly he realizes-- "Oh shit, I got nothing on my team that resists Ground anymore . . ." or "Oh shit, my last Steel type is only at 25% now."

. . . then Flygon, the little engine that could, gets his time . . . it's always amusing to see a choice user take out 3-4 enemy pokemon all on its own accord.

When considering that there are pokemon like Flygon in the metagame, Salamence's difficulties with residual damage really should not be underestimated. If it didn't make such a difference, SR would not be the premier move of 4th gen (and will always be regardless of Salamence's tiering). There's a pretty good reason that we're not discussing Specs, Band, and Scarf mence's alongside the other sets-- Salamence simply cannot use any game plan that requires lots of switching in and out. Unlike something like Flygon, it's simply not built for it.

This has strong implications on its other sets as well though-- whether the goal is to try and set up a sweep with DD, or to take out one enemy poke as Mix-Mence, Mence has a very small room for error. There are no second chances for it, and it's neither an easy pokemon to use nor one that is effective without planning.

Salamence is simply a pokemon that ups the stakes as soon as it comes out. It's like when the enemy brings out his Queen on turn 4-- it can be pretty intimidating, but on the other hand it could end up being a pretty stupid play on your opponent's part.

But, all people feel is the intimidating part (Nintendo gave mence the right ability in terms of flavor)-- they don't get the fact that the result could easily swing the other way. IE. Salamence doesn't necessarily dominate games so much as he simply ups the stakes from the start, making the fight kill or be killed on a much more in-your-face here-and-now basis.

That doesn't necessarily mean Salamence is always a good play.

 

[Tayla]

SubVersion kinda summed up everything I have to say about this matter. You can't just ignore the fact that the other half of the time, Salamence picks the wrong attack. Then he either dies to his switched in counter, or he is forced to switch out and later return depeleted 25%. The cycle then repeats itself, and the prediction game begins again. Prediction is part of Pokemon. Banning a Pokemon because it unhinges teams or kills a Pokemon when its opponent makes the wrong move is ridiculous. That's the fault of the user, not Salamence.

 

[baboon 101]

I might sound off topic here for a moment, but bear with me, I have a point. I still think it's bullcrap that Garchomp was ever taken out of OU. I know all the arguments that you are preparing to throw at me right now, the stealth rock resistance, the fact that his speed is higher than Salamence's (more on that later), and his higher bulk than salamence's.

I'm going to stick with my Garchomp rant for a while, because much of this also relates to Salamence.

People often complain(ed) about Garchomp being fast, here's the simple argument to that. No he isn't. Without a way to boost his speed, he's dead in the water from a Starmie's ice beam, a Weavile's ice punch, a Gengar's Ice Beam, a DD'd Gyrados's outrage, a Jolteon's HP ice, a Scarfed Flygon's outrage, a motor drived electivire's ice punch, and that's just what I could think of off the top of my head, not including priority moves.

With a scarf, he had no versatility and, no matter which way you slice it, base 130 attack still isn't enough to pull off a sweep without some sort of boost. (and before you say it, base 135 isn't either).

Salamence is infinitely better than Garchomp for that access to dragon dance, but that doesn't make him the god that many claim he is in the OU environment. He still has the weakness to ice shard, and an additional weakness to Stone Edge, which can be critical.

Salamence has so many weaknesses, from the ice that most special sweepers carry to the stone edge that most physical ones do, that anything that survives his attack (there are a lot more than are being listed here, hell, this even includes an ice beam blissey) can have a good shot at killing him. Couple that with Life Orb, and Salamence has very little potential to sweep a team that hasn't first been significantly weakened and cleared of his counters.

I often think the concept of an evolving metagame is somewhat funny, yes, i get it that when certain pokemon get new toys (I.E. Iron Head for Jirachi or Bullet Punch for Scizor) it can change the game a bit, but dragon dance TTar is still as great as he ever was,despite having somewhat fallen out of style, same with a Bold Blissey, the game often changes for arbitrary reasons, while Salamence has changed very little, countering many new pokemon that come into style, the game has changed around him.

Salamence isn't "too good" for the metagame, the evolution of that metagame led straight into a wall, and that wall is Salamence. Now Smogon asks you a question, is it appropriate to allow the game to continue to evolve by forcibly making the evolution continue? Or do we accept that just like a bullet punch Scizor or a Dragon Dance Gyrados, Salamence is a powerful, but integral, part of the game?

Let's not make the same mistake that was made with Garchomp here.

Just for grins, I'll give you three reasons that Salamence should stay around, his counters still exist, but people just don't think of them. These are

1) They don't build Blisseys like they used to. Used to be that Blissey could survive anything short of a DD+LO outrage, now people complain about salamence because she can scarcely survive his earthquake. For some arbitrary reason, people decided that Blissey needed to lose much of its physical defence. Losing your walling ability against salamence is the price you pay. I don't care what people say, Salamence is really not that bulky, he can't even survive an ice beam from blissey.

Bold Blissey never stopped being good, it was just randomly decided that it should be able to survive Gengar's Focus Blasts, when Blissey really has no business staying in on a Gengar in the first place, and the whole Smogon community followed like sheep.

2) Weavile. I'll tell you what happened to this, Bullet Punch happened. Without being first intimidated, Weavile crushes salamence with ice shard. Even if he has taken an intimidate, ice punch can still hit the weak point for massive damage, given that Walamence hasn't had the time to set up if Weavile takes the intimidate.

3) Starmie. I really can't tell you what happened to the offensive Starmie. It has great speed and good enough special attack when combined with it's superb type coverage. I guess the rise of TTar hurt it, but I really don't know. Anyway, two words. Ice beam.

None of those three counters even need a boost to OHKO Salamence, and none of them are specifically designed to take him out, and have their own niches in the metagame. (side note, all three of them counter Garchomp beautifully, his removal from OU is still in my opinion the worst decision Smogon ever made)

 

[iruchii]

I don't think you know why Garchomp was voted uber. Also, Blissey, Weavile and Starmie aren't counters since they can't switch in (maybe Scarf Starmie? It still dies to Outrage/Draco Meteor I guess, though, so not even that).

 

[Korali]

A counter is a Pokemon that can switch in and threaten the opposing Pokemon WITHOUT HARM. If you seriously just suggested Blissey being a counter to Salamence, you have very little idea how to play the current metagame. One Physical attack from Salamence has the potential to 2HKO a Blissey unboosted. Even a switch in on a Draco Meteor will deal enough damage for a 2HKO EQ followup.

Weavile is also decimated on the switch in as well, and if used as anything but an Anti-Lead, Weavile is incredibly detrimental to a team.

Any Starmie not running Surf/Tbolt/Rapid Spin/Recover nowadays is incredibly rare, and there are better users of Ice Beam. And once again, Starmie cannot switch in on a Salamence without being horribly decimated.

You also forget one of the main reason Garchomp was so deadly, Sandstorm. Sand Veil, along with the raising of Garchomp's already decent Special Defense gave him a good resistance to Ice Beam, and also activated his ability to even bring his defenses even higher.

 

[Stellar]

No one has ever used that definition of a counter. Pokémon will almost always take damage when switching in to 'counter' another.

Even when Salamence is Rash and 252 SpA / 252 Atk, it can not 2HKO Blissey with Draco Meteor and Earthquake.

252 Rash Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor
vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Blissey : 31.2% - 37%
252 Rash Life Orb Salamence Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Leftovers Blissey : 37.1% - 43.7%
Total damage (using maxima): 80.7%

You need Outrage or Brick Break to even have a shot at 2HKOing.

I'm not saying I believe that Blissey is a Salamence counter, I'm simply pointing out the flaws in your argument.

 

[Tayla]

If Weavile comes in on a DD, it can Ice Shard and kill it (135.3% - 160.7%, a direct OHKO with prediction). If Blissey comes in on a Fire Blast directed at your Skarmory, an Ice Beam takes care of the problem. If Salamence decides to Brick Break (if it happens to carry it) the max it can do to a Bold Blissey is 54.6%. Add that to Fire Blast's 21.3%, and you have a dead Salamence. Salamence's sets have different things that can take the threat right out. Force Salamence to attack with little damage, LO recoil sets in, Sandstorm damage, Stealth Rock, faulty switches. There's so many facets to how Salamence work, I believe it's healthy to the metagame for it to remain OU, and not move to Ubers. Salamence IS beatable. And if it moves to Uber, its performance there will be even more lacklustre than Garchomp's.

I don't see the problem in testing Salamence, but I don't think people should ignore how prediction and smart playing can stop Salamence in its tracks most of the time.

"Decimated" is relative, as it depends wholly on what the Salamence user decides to attack with, or what you plan to switch in on, or even if Salamence has seen your Starmie in play yet.

 

[Korali]

While I'll give you that, my argument still stands. Whether's it's Earthquake or Outrage, nobody in the world would be sane enough to keep Blissey in against a Salamence other than to soak up a Draco Meteor, then switch to another hopeful check.

If Weavile comes in on a DD, it can Ice Shard and kill it (135.3% - 160.7%, a direct OHKO with prediction). If Blissey comes in on a Fire Blast directed at your Skarmory, an Ice Beam takes care of the problem. If Salamence decides to Brick Break (if it happens to carry it) the max it can do to a Bold Blissey is 54.6%. Add that to Fire Blast's 21.3%, and you have a dead Salamence. Salamence's sets have different things that can take the threat right out. Force Salamence to attack with little damage, LO recoil sets in, Sandstorm damage, Stealth Rock, faulty switches. There's so many facets to how Salamence work, I believe it's healthy to the metagame for it to remain OU, and not move to Ubers. Salamence IS beatable. And if it moves to Uber, its performance there will be even more lacklustre than Garchomp's.

I don't see the problem in testing Salamence, but I don't think people should ignore how prediction and smart playing can stop Salamence in its tracks most of the time.

"Decimated" is relative, as it depends wholly on what the Salamence user decides to attack with, or what you plan to switch in on, or even if Salamence has seen your Starmie in play yet.

Nobody should be forced to pack a Weavile, who's used for not much else other than to dispatch dragons, just to counter a Salamence. Even if he did, Weavile is Stealth Rock weak, and probably wouldn't see the light of day for too long to safely down Salamence.

 

[baboon 101]

I'm not suggesting a switch in to salamence with a blissey, that would truly be stupid. Sometimes in pokemon, you just have to let what you have out die so that the counter can switch in without taking damage. The fact that Salamence does this sometimes is not reason to make him uber, every pokemon can do this, hell, even walls like blissey can force the opposition to stay in to die to ensure a safe switch-in from time to time. If that Blissey comes in on a non DD'd salamence, she would kill it. I'm not saying she is the best counter, but I'm saying that this argument that pokemon need some super rediculous spec/band-boosted power to OHKO salamence is simply untrue. Yes, not much can kill him with an unboosted Ice Shard (especially after an intimidate), but that's why Ice Shard is a priority move, it's supposed to be weak. People seem to forget that with ludicrously powerful bullet punches flying every which way.

This next part relates to the Garchomp argument, irrelevant to the main content of this thread:
The reason I ignored sand veil in that is because I really only tried to mention Garchomp as the arguments for his uberness relate to the argument for Salamence's. Besides, with evasion clause in effect (without brightpowder), Garchomp still gets countered by that stuff 80% of the time. In a metagame where having many counters that carry 70% accurate focus blast as their primary method to OHKO is considered a reasonable counter (see TTar) having an ability that slightly increases evasion only sometimes is not really a good reason to make an Uber.