I am still seeing offensive teams quite often and I think they are just as viable. I prefer playing semi-stall myself, so I'm biased towards Suspect, but if anything I'd say that OU was too offensively oriented with Salamence. Suspect makes stall more viable, but does not make an offensive playstyle impossible. It just requires a little less cruise control and a little more thinking.
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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
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Not every team is stall. Ive come across a few offense teams, and stall isn't that hard to break. Heracross and Breloom are excellent stall breakers in suspect.
I fail to see why the bold part is relevant to its actually tiering. Also, during Wobbuffett testing it was like, 44th in usage so that point is kinda moot.
90% of teams I've faced on suspect have been the heavily defensive FWG that verges on stall most of the time. Breloom actually has a harder time without Salamence, as Brelooms counters rise up tenfold. Sure, Breloom is amazing against stall, but not these balance teams that are near copies of each other. YES there are stallbreakers, but the point isn't that we can't break these teams, it is that they have already become stale. I'm sure when the stats come out we will be able to see a very defensively orientated metagame.
These discussions are going in circles and I've now had my fill, so...
Salamence for OU. HOO-RAH.
Hm, no idea why my post was deleted due to irrelevance, so I'll just spell it out again: no other Pokemon in OU can so reliably blast the hell out of anything that's supposed to be able to check them. Gengar, for example, achieves perfect coverage with its Ghost STAB and a Fighting move to back it up, but its options for a Fighting move are the weak Hidden Power and the unreliable Focus Blast; when a Dark-type comes in to block Shadow Ball, Gengar's pretty much screwed.
Salamence, on the other hand, has ridiculous STAB in the form of Outrage and Draco Meteor, and anything with the one type that resists those are blasted to bits by Fire Blast and Earthquake. All of those moves in the previous sentence have at least 100 BP and 85% accuracy, and half are physical while the other half are special. Nothing else in OU can boast that kind of power, diversity, and type coverage. Does this make Salamence Uber? Probably.
Salamence, on the other hand, has ridiculous STAB in the form of Outrage and Draco Meteor, and anything with the one type that resists those are blasted to bits by Fire Blast and Earthquake. All of those moves in the previous sentence have at least 100 BP and 85% accuracy, and half are physical while the other half are special. Nothing else in OU can boast that kind of power, diversity, and type coverage. Does this make Salamence Uber? Probably.
Blatantly false. I don't know whether this is intentional dishonesty or just a reflection of your playing ability, but either way, this is an absolute fallacy.
Just look at your response to SushiOnToast, which can be summed up as "well the Salamence player will predict your prediction and then beat you". It's an absurd line of reasoning, wherein you grant the Salamence user near-Biblical predictive powers, whereas the opponent can only make "obvious" choices. This just isn't how the game works, and your argument can't be taken seriously until you stop peddling this tired line. Salamence does not force a sacrifice every match, because it can only use one move at a time, and if it chooses the wrong one then it is getting forced out, without a kill and without 35% of its health - make that 55% when it eventually switches back in. It isn't even a 50/50 chance when you consider match context, and also that in any given situation, Salamence likely has more wrong options than right ones*.
If the Salamence player is ballsy enough to Dragon Dance in front of a Swampert, and they pull it off, then more power to them. That's a high risk/reward, matchwinning sort of play. It isn't any indication of how broken Salamence might be.
*I mean "right" and "wrong" is the sense that "wrong" moves are highly likely to get him beaten whereas "right" moves are highly likely to get him a kill - but neither are certainties.
Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
I guess that's the scariest thing about Salamence, though - it finds an opportunity to come in and forces that 50/50 prediction. If I win, yay, free kill. If you win, never mind, I'll get at least one opportunity to force you to make a correct prediction later. Even when you know the set, can you switch that Scarf Starmie directly in hoping I'll DD instead of just Outraging, knowing at my low HP that I'll have a low chance of successfully sweeping? If you mispredict, despite the fact that we're assuming by this point that, the first time it came out, you:
a) predicted Salamence's moveset correctly and
b) predicted the move it would use adequately enough not to take huge damage
So basically, you have to make three successful predictions over the course of a match, just to prevent Salamence from scoring a kill - and in so doing you allowed it to still put some potentially crucial damage on some of your pokes as you frantically pivoted around it.
Absolutely, yeah. Salamence is really good and that translates into tough times whenever he comes onto the field. However, as has been covered before, the prediction is almost never 50/50 (ie. "blind"). You know what move types he has at his disposal (DD and Mix carry exactly the same ones), you know how threatened he is by your current Pokemon, you know the set most threatening to you and what you can afford to risk, hell you should even have a handle on your opponent's playing style by the time Salamence comes out. This all works both ways, of course, but with Salamence's options limited by field and Life Orb damage, I'm not convinced that predicting him is a 50/50 shot in the dark.
It's nice to see someone focusing on the process of playing against Salamence, though, as opposed to the tired "he always gets a kill!/you always have to sacrifice!/etc" arguments that a lot of people are rigidly adhering to. If there is an argument for Salamence to be banned, it's in the processes of beating him, not the on-paper damage calcs. Props.
I see moving Salamence to uber as sort of "nerfing Salamence by turning it into Dragonite." A lot of people are saying "if we ban Salamence, we might as well ban Dragonite too," but I'm a little confused as to why. People have pointed out why Dragonite is easier to deal with than Salamence. So my question is how much do you have to follow the explicit ubers criteria in a unique situation like this where you have two very similar pokemon? Say what you like about the critical importance of the 20 base speed and Intimidate, Dragonite and Salamence are probably more similar to each other than any other two pokemon. If Dragonite is more "balanced" than Salamence is, why keep both of them?
The goal is to make the game more fun and increase the number of options people have. So if Salamence goes uber, what kind of practical effect will it have for people who then switch to a Dragonite with the exact same moveset? Is the difference enough to make using Dragonite instead of Salamence completely worthless for some of these people to the point where they wouldn't be able to make the swap directly? I have my doubts that many people use both of them on their team.
And I'm also a little confused as to why Dragonite is so much worse at stallbreaking than Salamence to the point where stall is so much more prevalent on the Suspect ladder like some people say. I'd like someone to provide a reason for that. Even if it's because people who play stall are more likely to play Suspect because they hate Salamence, or something external like that.
Having looked through this entire thread, the one thing I haven't seen is my main question. If Salamence lost Intimidate and had 20 less base speed, what would that do to the metagame and why? And is the Suspect ladder so far reflecting that? And if it isn't, why isn't it?
The goal is to make the game more fun and increase the number of options people have. So if Salamence goes uber, what kind of practical effect will it have for people who then switch to a Dragonite with the exact same moveset? Is the difference enough to make using Dragonite instead of Salamence completely worthless for some of these people to the point where they wouldn't be able to make the swap directly? I have my doubts that many people use both of them on their team.
And I'm also a little confused as to why Dragonite is so much worse at stallbreaking than Salamence to the point where stall is so much more prevalent on the Suspect ladder like some people say. I'd like someone to provide a reason for that. Even if it's because people who play stall are more likely to play Suspect because they hate Salamence, or something external like that.
Having looked through this entire thread, the one thing I haven't seen is my main question. If Salamence lost Intimidate and had 20 less base speed, what would that do to the metagame and why? And is the Suspect ladder so far reflecting that? And if it isn't, why isn't it?
To correct somebody who claimed that Lance would be pissed if Salamence got banned, the fact is Lance has a total of 0 salamences and 3 dragonites. He would be more pissed if DNite got banned which would really suck.
Mence is good, it just isnt uber. If you fight against it on the ladder, you will not be swept 6-0 as some people here claim. If you let it get to +3 (life orb to +2) you will be swept no questions asked. Otherwise, just deal with it. If it is that much of an issue, use cresellia who can probably(should be able to) tank like 2 +1 outrages and still live to KO with Ice beam.
Mence is good, it just isnt uber. If you fight against it on the ladder, you will not be swept 6-0 as some people here claim. If you let it get to +3 (life orb to +2) you will be swept no questions asked. Otherwise, just deal with it. If it is that much of an issue, use cresellia who can probably(should be able to) tank like 2 +1 outrages and still live to KO with Ice beam.
Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
Thanks. Good arguments, too, and I do agree that it's not a complete 50/50 shot. Then again, you can turn that on its head - I know that you know all those things about my Mence and the game state. I can play on those assumptions. And so we go back round in circles.
The thing about Salamence is its risk/reward. The thing about Mence is that it forces you to play around it - you're switching around, so the consequences of a misprediction by you are far worse than the consequences of a misprediction by me, the Mence player. I might Draco Meteor your Scizor - alas! I did some damage, I'll switch out and/or set something else up. If I DD on your switch to Suicune, congratulations - however, as a Mence player, I'm going to be packing a strong switch-in to bulky water-types, and the only real cost to me is a third of my HP and some tempo. Mence can use its incredible resistances and ability to come back in later and force you to make that prediction all over again - especially (not exclusively) if you didn't get Rocks up early-game, or I managed to Spin them away. However, if your Scizor comes in on a Fire Blast, it's dead.
What I think pushes Salamence towards Uber - I'm not yet completely decided on the issue - is that it can force you to make that kind of skewed prediction several times over the course of the game. Generally, making three successful predictions - yes, they're not 50/50 guesses, but no prediction is - would be enough to win a lot of games. The Mence user will turn around to you and say, "Nice Yomi, I only managed to spread significant residual damage and check certain threats - I didn't sweep you."
@ exeCute: Apply that to this line of reasoning. Because it doesn't have Intimidate, it can't as consistently set up the scenarios above. Because it has less Special Attack, it can't as consistently execute the same devastating outcomes. Superpower makes Dragonite a better stallbreaker than Mence - the speed is mostly irrelevant when you consider the increased coverage, while Intimidate doesn't make much of a difference there either. However, Stallbreaking MixNite isn't nearly as threatening to offensive teams. When it comes to DD, those 80 Speed points make a massive difference - I'd sleep better at night if I knew that my (non-KOd) Scarf Jirachi/Flygon would always be able to stop me getting swept.
lmitchell0012
Wi-Fi Blacklisted
I agree that cresellia makes an excellent mence counter. What I don't understand is, if cresellia is such a good physical wall, why has it's usage dropped so much (because it's UU now)??
well...in hgss lance does get salamence for the rematch....
and people arent saying mence would 6-0 you... mence is an awesome wallbreaker and DDer... best DDEr next to probably only rayquaza... and a wallbreaker that is only second to ubers....its the best of both DDer and mixed attacker in the standard environment....
The reason stall is popular in the first place is because it forces people to make good offensive strategies. I think that the dominance of stall is more an indication that people don't know how to make good offense or are too lazy to, and therefore people exploit this by playing stall. If people could actually make effective teams then stall would be a non-issue.
Also, to everyone talking about how easy DD Mence is to handle, it might be because that isn't the best set. The very existence of DD Mence (among other sweepers I suppose) is what has caused this bulkier metagame to develop, and in this metagame it is Mix Mence that truly shines. DD Mence is the most effective set when the metagame is faster and more frail, or alternatively in a team that can weaken the main counters. Mix Mence is better when you are dealing with more stallish or bulkier teams because it has the ability to easily switch into these pokemon multiple times due to typing, ability, and roost and then force the opponent to predict correctly or lose something.
Once again, it ultimately comes down to effective team building. I think that in some ways Mence has contributed to a metagame where people have forgotten what offensive synergy is because they can simply throw in a high-powered sweeper like Mence and then write off the stall matchup. It shouldn't be this easy.
Also, to everyone talking about how easy DD Mence is to handle, it might be because that isn't the best set. The very existence of DD Mence (among other sweepers I suppose) is what has caused this bulkier metagame to develop, and in this metagame it is Mix Mence that truly shines. DD Mence is the most effective set when the metagame is faster and more frail, or alternatively in a team that can weaken the main counters. Mix Mence is better when you are dealing with more stallish or bulkier teams because it has the ability to easily switch into these pokemon multiple times due to typing, ability, and roost and then force the opponent to predict correctly or lose something.
Once again, it ultimately comes down to effective team building. I think that in some ways Mence has contributed to a metagame where people have forgotten what offensive synergy is because they can simply throw in a high-powered sweeper like Mence and then write off the stall matchup. It shouldn't be this easy.
Excellent argument. I'm convinced.
On-topic, I agree with Anachronism's post. I like playing in an environment in which semi-stall and bulky offense are strong because it becomes a game of steadily wearing your opponent down and looking to exploit openings, rather than a game where a single lost turn means a Pokemon goes down and where some Pokemon end up being nothing other than sweep fodder. This isn't necessarily slow paced, if both players know what they're doing and don't force dumb things like Crocune vs. Vaporeon. Unlike most Pokemon, Salamence is able to overwhelm with sheer force, making defensive strategies much less viable. With Latias gone, Salamence alone is largely responsible for the offensive nature of OU. It's incredible how much one Pokemon changes the team building process. Salamence's effect on the metagame alone doesn't make it Uber, but I think it's definitely something to consider.
From personal experience in the last days playing suspect, the metagame is getting very very VERY EXTREMELY offensive. Stall is just impossible to use with Sub+PainSplit Gengar and one of the dozens of possible Infernape sets on almost every team. By the first days, the metagame was indeed more stallish, with heavy stall teams almost always using Tentacruel to stop Infernape, but I have played with such a stall team and Infernape still just rapes everything with CC/Fire Blast/GK/ThunderPunch.
And then there is Gengar. I have seem a lot of Togekiss lately, and it seems like the only viable pokémon capable of stop the Sub+PainSplit set, which rapes everything a stall team could throw at it. Not even specially defensive Metagross/Jirachi can avoid the 3hko from Shadow Ball, and Gengar just keeps switching out and then coming back on the walls that can't touch it (Gliscor, Skarm, most Blisseys). Not to mention that offensive teams just hate Gengar since ever, so this guy is a very huge threat by now.
Scarf Heatran is making a great return, being able of revenge killing Infernape (and some Napes are starting to run Mach Punch again to avoid that), Lucario and Gengar, if it's not behind a sub. And most matches overall are all about revenge killing.
Oh and on a side note, the cool thing about using stall when Mence was still around was that people kept using it instead of Dragonite, for obvious reasons, and it was somewhat easy to deal because Blissey is a great counter to the mixed sets, provided you come on Draco Meteor (which is the spammed move, so it is easy). But now people use Dragonite when they want a mixed dragon, and that makes the life of heavy stall even harder, with Superpower OHKOing Blissey, lol.
And then there is Gengar. I have seem a lot of Togekiss lately, and it seems like the only viable pokémon capable of stop the Sub+PainSplit set, which rapes everything a stall team could throw at it. Not even specially defensive Metagross/Jirachi can avoid the 3hko from Shadow Ball, and Gengar just keeps switching out and then coming back on the walls that can't touch it (Gliscor, Skarm, most Blisseys). Not to mention that offensive teams just hate Gengar since ever, so this guy is a very huge threat by now.
Scarf Heatran is making a great return, being able of revenge killing Infernape (and some Napes are starting to run Mach Punch again to avoid that), Lucario and Gengar, if it's not behind a sub. And most matches overall are all about revenge killing.
Oh and on a side note, the cool thing about using stall when Mence was still around was that people kept using it instead of Dragonite, for obvious reasons, and it was somewhat easy to deal because Blissey is a great counter to the mixed sets, provided you come on Draco Meteor (which is the spammed move, so it is easy). But now people use Dragonite when they want a mixed dragon, and that makes the life of heavy stall even harder, with Superpower OHKOing Blissey, lol.
One thing I'm finding interesting on suspect is how weak some teams are to one surprising Pokemon that will find its way up into the usage tiers in about 2 months. Yea, surprisingly, LO + 3 attacks CM Raikou can do quite a number against a lot of stall teams. It can live through a Scarf Heatran's Fire Blast or Earth Power, kill back with Hidden Power Ground, (or HP Fighting if you run it like I do, but that only 2HKOes Heatran, great for Tar nonethless), decimates bulky waters with Thunderbolt, etc. Really it only has troubles with Tar and Blissey if you run HP Ground, Heatran if you run HP Fighting, Swampert in general, and yea grass types give it hell if its not running HP Ice, but that's why you have 6 team members. I also find it fun to run with a defensive Celebi, who works great with crippling other teams with Thunder Wave.
Nearly every stall team carries Blissey, and if they don't have Blissey they have Scarf or Curse (Max SpDef) Tar (both beat you don't hp fighting first turn), so I fail to see how that will beat stall without significant team support. That set seems like a better answer to offense than stall.
Without Salamence, i think the OU metagame will switch place with the UU one.
I Don't think Salamence can be put to the Uber Play. It cant even be compared to those who are from Ubers. My Opinnion is, wait for Black and White, and look for the situation later, if Salamence is still a huge problems for Generation 5
Really, without Salamence, the UU metagame will risen !! and those in OU will more likely fall !!
If Salamence is going to be an Uber, why not Tyranitar and Dragonite too ?
I think if salamence is up to Uber, Tyranitar will most likely become the next suspect, as Lucario will decreased in usage and Tyranitar will lost it's Rival, the Close Combat 1HKO user Lucario even with Reflect ups !
I Don't think Salamence can be put to the Uber Play. It cant even be compared to those who are from Ubers. My Opinnion is, wait for Black and White, and look for the situation later, if Salamence is still a huge problems for Generation 5
Really, without Salamence, the UU metagame will risen !! and those in OU will more likely fall !!
If Salamence is going to be an Uber, why not Tyranitar and Dragonite too ?
I think if salamence is up to Uber, Tyranitar will most likely become the next suspect, as Lucario will decreased in usage and Tyranitar will lost it's Rival, the Close Combat 1HKO user Lucario even with Reflect ups !
The comparison between UU and OU was just that: a comparison. We aren't saying that more UUs will suddenly become viable. We are saying the metagame will become more diverse (with other OUs becoming more used).
As has been mentioned multiple times Salamence is in a tier all its own when it comes to offensive prowess. Everything else in Standard has situational counters, and some things have hard counters:Tyranitar will find it difficult to ever get past Machamp without using Zen Headbutt or something. Mix Mence doesn't even have situational counters. The standard Mix Mence set has 0 things that can come in on it safely more than once (Cresselia comes close but the popular sandstorm keeps it from being able to recover effectively.) It isn't like a lot of other pokemon where you might lose something to find out what set it has and then you know what to bring in. With Mence you are never safe. It can do 60% + to almost any switchin and has plenty of opportunities to come in and roost off damage and start the Grinding again. It is even able to counter things for you (namely Lucario and Breloom), unlike nearly every other top tier sweeper like Lucario, Infernape, and Gengar, which can't counter anything really because of their incredible frailty . It is very difficult for me to believe any argument based on the idea that there are other pokemon that are just as good as Mence that should also be banned. That argument, when folllowed to the logical end point, is essentially the same as the "slippery slope" argument, which is a known logical fallacy. If you wish to argue please do so in a logical manner.
Saying that Mence shouldn't be Uber because it isn't as good as other Ubers is ridiculous. It doesn't matter how good the other Ubers are. If Mence is too good for the rest of OU then it should be banned. And it WOULD have a niche in the Uber metagame anyway. It has more speed than Rayquaza (which lets it tie Palkia), and it has the useful intimidate. It also has roost, a move that Ray really wishes it has. It is already being used as a Rayquaza partner on a lot of teams.
Dragonite is in no way comparable to Mence. Intimidate, 1 Atk, 10 SpA, and 20 Speed is HUGE. It makes Mence physically bulkier upon switchin, and allows it to hit harder and faster. Dragonite is too slow to outspeed Lucario or base 100 scarfers at +1, 2 things that Mence really enjoys to do.
The reason stall is so common is because stall is always common in a new, limiting metagame. Once the new metagame becomes more established there might be less stall. Perhaps instead of whining about how terrible stall is you should build a team with some synergy instead of relying on Mence Dragon spamming to break through stall teams. If everyone built competent offense then stall would cease to exist.
Your logic regarding Lucario trends doesn't make sense. Salamence is THE premier Lucario counter for offense, and with it gone it becomes much easier for Lucario to sweep those teams. The increase in stall teams may mean an increase in Gliscor, which is problematic, but nothing a little bit of team building doesn't solve. Also, Lucario doesn't even counter Tyranitar. Any secondary attack from almost any set is a ko. The most popular set is DD, which outspeeds and kos with Fire Punch or Earthquake. A banded set has access to Aqua Tail and EQ. The scarf set kos with Superpower or Earthquake. Tyranitar IS good, but there are multiple good counters for it, Hippowdon and Machamp being the most obvious.
Regarding waiting for Black and White, we STILL need to establish tiers for Gen 4 just as we have done for every other generation. This doesn't change when a new game rolls around.
As has been mentioned multiple times Salamence is in a tier all its own when it comes to offensive prowess. Everything else in Standard has situational counters, and some things have hard counters:Tyranitar will find it difficult to ever get past Machamp without using Zen Headbutt or something. Mix Mence doesn't even have situational counters. The standard Mix Mence set has 0 things that can come in on it safely more than once (Cresselia comes close but the popular sandstorm keeps it from being able to recover effectively.) It isn't like a lot of other pokemon where you might lose something to find out what set it has and then you know what to bring in. With Mence you are never safe. It can do 60% + to almost any switchin and has plenty of opportunities to come in and roost off damage and start the Grinding again. It is even able to counter things for you (namely Lucario and Breloom), unlike nearly every other top tier sweeper like Lucario, Infernape, and Gengar, which can't counter anything really because of their incredible frailty . It is very difficult for me to believe any argument based on the idea that there are other pokemon that are just as good as Mence that should also be banned. That argument, when folllowed to the logical end point, is essentially the same as the "slippery slope" argument, which is a known logical fallacy. If you wish to argue please do so in a logical manner.
Saying that Mence shouldn't be Uber because it isn't as good as other Ubers is ridiculous. It doesn't matter how good the other Ubers are. If Mence is too good for the rest of OU then it should be banned. And it WOULD have a niche in the Uber metagame anyway. It has more speed than Rayquaza (which lets it tie Palkia), and it has the useful intimidate. It also has roost, a move that Ray really wishes it has. It is already being used as a Rayquaza partner on a lot of teams.
Dragonite is in no way comparable to Mence. Intimidate, 1 Atk, 10 SpA, and 20 Speed is HUGE. It makes Mence physically bulkier upon switchin, and allows it to hit harder and faster. Dragonite is too slow to outspeed Lucario or base 100 scarfers at +1, 2 things that Mence really enjoys to do.
The reason stall is so common is because stall is always common in a new, limiting metagame. Once the new metagame becomes more established there might be less stall. Perhaps instead of whining about how terrible stall is you should build a team with some synergy instead of relying on Mence Dragon spamming to break through stall teams. If everyone built competent offense then stall would cease to exist.
Your logic regarding Lucario trends doesn't make sense. Salamence is THE premier Lucario counter for offense, and with it gone it becomes much easier for Lucario to sweep those teams. The increase in stall teams may mean an increase in Gliscor, which is problematic, but nothing a little bit of team building doesn't solve. Also, Lucario doesn't even counter Tyranitar. Any secondary attack from almost any set is a ko. The most popular set is DD, which outspeeds and kos with Fire Punch or Earthquake. A banded set has access to Aqua Tail and EQ. The scarf set kos with Superpower or Earthquake. Tyranitar IS good, but there are multiple good counters for it, Hippowdon and Machamp being the most obvious.
Regarding waiting for Black and White, we STILL need to establish tiers for Gen 4 just as we have done for every other generation. This doesn't change when a new game rolls around.
You people and your "what if slippery slope happens" arguments are getting stale. Quite honestly, it seems that every person who comes into this topic with sub 100 posts chimes in with "well let's ban Dragonite/Lucario/Infernape if we're banning Salamence!" when it's been shown that the slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy.
So please, stop. Not only has it been said to death, but it doesn't contribute any meaningful discussion to the subject.
So please, stop. Not only has it been said to death, but it doesn't contribute any meaningful discussion to the subject.
Starmie would outspeed even if Salamence was max+, but according to the usage statistics, 59% of Salamence used a speed boosting nature and 74% ran max speed ev's. Do your research before you post.
Scarf Starmie is pursuit bait anyways.
Shuckle is not a counter >.>
I have posted my views here already, but I run a Jirachi set specifically to deal with Salamence/Gyarados, its basically just the CS set with max atk/spe, with U-Turn, Ice/ThunderPunch and Iron Head. I always try to bait the Salamence into attacking, by switching to something [usually fodder] that can be threatening, then bringing in Jirachi for the Ice Punch. I find this set to be very effective, and deals with so many pokemon its ridiculous.
Also don't try to compare Salamence with Dragonite/TTAR, they are COMPLETELY different. Does dragonite have a 110 SpA stat, 10 less base is actually a fair amount, so much so that its mixed set without Super Power is rather lacking in terms of power, and its lower Speed makes a HUGE difference. Sure defensively he is much stronger, but Salamence is extremely bulky considering its offensive stats are 135Atk/110 SpA, compare that to other sweeping pokemon with those kind of offensive stats and speed, as well as the raw power of their generic move pool. Nothing compares to Salamence, don't bother with this argument.
But as I said earlier, considering the usage of Tyranitar and Scizor, both completely ruining Salamence after stealth rocks and SandStream/Bullet Punch + Salamence's Life Orb. Sure he is powerful, but there are enough OU pokemon to handle him.
I have posted my views here already, but I run a Jirachi set specifically to deal with Salamence/Gyarados, its basically just the CS set with max atk/spe, with U-Turn, Ice/ThunderPunch and Iron Head. I always try to bait the Salamence into attacking, by switching to something [usually fodder] that can be threatening, then bringing in Jirachi for the Ice Punch. I find this set to be very effective, and deals with so many pokemon its ridiculous.
Also don't try to compare Salamence with Dragonite/TTAR, they are COMPLETELY different. Does dragonite have a 110 SpA stat, 10 less base is actually a fair amount, so much so that its mixed set without Super Power is rather lacking in terms of power, and its lower Speed makes a HUGE difference. Sure defensively he is much stronger, but Salamence is extremely bulky considering its offensive stats are 135Atk/110 SpA, compare that to other sweeping pokemon with those kind of offensive stats and speed, as well as the raw power of their generic move pool. Nothing compares to Salamence, don't bother with this argument.
But as I said earlier, considering the usage of Tyranitar and Scizor, both completely ruining Salamence after stealth rocks and SandStream/Bullet Punch + Salamence's Life Orb. Sure he is powerful, but there are enough OU pokemon to handle him.
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