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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
- Status
Oh, I wasn't thinking of that.... It still had a good movepool in the third generation though. It mainly got two STAB moves (Outrage and Draco Meteor), and Roost. Salamence has a lot of checks and counters though, and also all that recoil from SS, LO, and SR (pardon all the abreveations), so it dies quickly. After all, as soon as it switches in, (asuming that sand stream and stealth rock are in play) and attacks, it is at 65% health. And then you have to factor in the damage it takes from switching in/ the opponent counter-attacking.
And conterary to what somepeople have said, salamence can not "OHKO anything that switches into it."
I am against too. I just like to make sure everyone knows the facts. I feel Salamence is better at home in OU.
@ Mence vs Nite:
I don't want to embroil myself too deeply into this, but consider that the OU metagame is the way it is now (analysis EV spreads included) partly because Salamence is in it. There is little point to EVing your Pokémon to beat Dragonite but not Salamence, simply because they're so similar and Salamence is so much more popular. However, in Suspect, where Salamence is out of the picture, outspeeding Dragonite becomes more enticing as it's the only Big Bad Floating Dragon in that environment (you know what I mean so don't bring up Flygon).
Also Gyarados is pretty great in Suspect right now ^_^
I don't want to embroil myself too deeply into this, but consider that the OU metagame is the way it is now (analysis EV spreads included) partly because Salamence is in it. There is little point to EVing your Pokémon to beat Dragonite but not Salamence, simply because they're so similar and Salamence is so much more popular. However, in Suspect, where Salamence is out of the picture, outspeeding Dragonite becomes more enticing as it's the only Big Bad Floating Dragon in that environment (you know what I mean so don't bring up Flygon).
From what I recall, people have been wanting Salamence tested ever since Platinum gave it Outrage. It's just that the suspect test was well into Stage 2 and was testing other Pokémon. The fact that it's taken this long just to get to testing Salamence is why the Council system is being implemented.Bamce said:
We've been given four weeks since Latias's ban to try out a metagame without Salamence. The suspect ladder test will be continuing until June 22 probably. (Jumpman and Aeolus always say "about four weeks" but it's always turned out to be exactly four weeks lol.) Four weeks is not an unreasonably short time. So get in there and play the Suspect ladder! ^_^Robb90000 said:
Latias was voted OU in her first test because all the centralization in that test was attributed to the spotlight being on her. However, after a year of being on the Standard ladder and (more importantly) OU tournaments, it has become apparent that Latias was underestimated back then.CuddyBuddy said:
Also Gyarados is pretty great in Suspect right now ^_^
A lot of other pokemon got new moves too; Gyarados got Ice fang, physical Waterfall, Aqua Tail, and Stone Edge. Jirachi got Iron Head, Flash Cannon, U-Turn, and Trick. Scizor got Bullet Punch and Super Power, as well as a whole new ability. In other words, just about ever pokemon got new and better moves in the fourth generation.
I wasn't saying that ADV Salamence and Gen. IV Salamence were equals; I was just pointing out that Salamence has been around for a while.
Salamence just wasn't broken in Gen 3 or in DP. The physical/special split and Draco Meteor were great buffs for Salamence. Outrage has been an especially awesome present, possibly pushing it over the edge.
No, the argument is that it can 2hko almost anything that switches into it, and outspeed for the kill. Few things faster than Salamence can take a hit from it without a scarf, and they are all outsped after a DD, so you have to make sure that you're dealing with MixMence, not DDMence.
Concur with this statement. Outrage was extremely unnecessary for Mence. In fact, I was under the impression they withdrew from giving him outrage JUST to balance him.
If anything, Outrage made Salamence easier to kill. If by everyone's opinion and logic, "Salamence gets one kill regardless" then Outrage was just going to kill one thing and then get it's ass revenged anyways. That's why everyone's #1 method to stop DDKingdra is to switch dragons in on it to force it to Outrage a steel.
You know, this doesn't mean much to the discussion, but it's worth throwing out there just make sure it gets said somewhere in the mix.
As a note, Cressy is not a 100% completely reliable counter, she's highly reliable, but not completely. Cresselia can be 2HKO'd by Specs sets or rolling high numbers with new Mixmence+SR, but if you're in the discussion you probably already know this.
I have found, in my experience, only one way to make sure you're team is completely ready for Mence, and can reliably counter it at any given time, and that's Hail Teams. Abomasnow lead, throwing blizzard or another Ice move on pretty much anything that can, if they can't it pretty much has to be able to explode to get rid of Mence... if Mence actually kills something, a Scarfed Ice Type or Ice Sharder will do, seeing as it's impossible for Mence to get a DD in... It's not fun to run, but from what I see, it's the only way you can make a team with no worries about Mence, in return, though, you have worries about many other things.
That's really all I have to say. I really don't want OU to turn into some sort of Anti-Mence Hail Stall wit TTar on half of teams ALWAYS paired with Mence to stop the Hail or something once people figure out how well it works, taking out Hail AND stopping Cressy in her tracks, so I guess I'm pro-Mence ban.
As a note, Cressy is not a 100% completely reliable counter, she's highly reliable, but not completely. Cresselia can be 2HKO'd by Specs sets or rolling high numbers with new Mixmence+SR, but if you're in the discussion you probably already know this.
I have found, in my experience, only one way to make sure you're team is completely ready for Mence, and can reliably counter it at any given time, and that's Hail Teams. Abomasnow lead, throwing blizzard or another Ice move on pretty much anything that can, if they can't it pretty much has to be able to explode to get rid of Mence... if Mence actually kills something, a Scarfed Ice Type or Ice Sharder will do, seeing as it's impossible for Mence to get a DD in... It's not fun to run, but from what I see, it's the only way you can make a team with no worries about Mence, in return, though, you have worries about many other things.
That's really all I have to say. I really don't want OU to turn into some sort of Anti-Mence Hail Stall wit TTar on half of teams ALWAYS paired with Mence to stop the Hail or something once people figure out how well it works, taking out Hail AND stopping Cressy in her tracks, so I guess I'm pro-Mence ban.
Reality check for everyone involved in comparing Salamence and Dragonite: It doesn't fucking matter. If Dragonite turns out to be good enough to fill Salamence's role without any significant loss, then maybe we start testing Dragonite. But for now, the only place he isn't totally outclassed is on Suspect, a metagame in a state of flux. So instead of pointlessly wondering what Dragonite might be able to do once Salamence stops wrecking his shit, focus on the Pokemon whose potential has already been fully realized and can be discussed with reference to a real metagame that actually exists.
If Salamence goes to Ubers, worry about Dragonite when - and if - he ever becomes a comparable threat. He's just fucking irrelevant right now though.
If Salamence goes to Ubers, worry about Dragonite when - and if - he ever becomes a comparable threat. He's just fucking irrelevant right now though.
Qft.
However, if Dragonite becomes suspect when Salamence is Uber, I'll stop using Smogon tiers for sure =D
I know right? People will just come up with more excuses to ban things. If they ban Dragonite, they might as well ban Kingdra then Altaria...
Anyway, I think what makes Salamence a great walbreaker is that it can use Draco Meteor and outrage at the same time.
My problem with Dclaw is that's it's significantly weaker than Outrage. Sure your not going to be revenged as easily but your not going outright demolish the metagame either.
I think that Draco Meteor in tandem with Outrage is just awful. I could see Mence easily being balanced with just outrage, but the 50% threat of Draco Meteor is just annoying.
You know damn well that won't happen. I hate when people post like this.
No, because Dragonite would not be banned. What I saying is that Salamence appears to be a level above the other dragons, and that Dragonite and Kingdra appears to be at the same level. But since the tiers would not be change until Black/White, we'll see how the new dragon stands in the metagame (if it does). Still, if people are going to say Salamence is uber then they should use one of the three principles (attack, support, defence). I hardly see anyone doing so except solely mentioning 135/110/100. Correct me if I am wrong though, because as much as I love Salamence to be in OU, I will stand in a neutral position.
I'm not sure what your arguing.
I was making the statement that there are a bunch of defensive guys who can outspeed nite. Which was way the 20 speed difference is huge. Any one of them can be tailored to beat out a +speed (non boosted) nite. Similar in the way gliscor runs a +speed and speed evs to 100% of the time beat luke.
I'm not talking about switching them in on nite. In order to break walls you must outspeed them.
Mence would come in on anything except an ice attack just like nite. Except mence would threaten it, where nite does not.
I just would like to point out that Salamence is being discussed in this thread, and not any other dragon/pokemon. The whole point of this thread is to discuss the viability of Salamence as an Ubers suspect. This bickering over how every dragon is getting banned is meaningless complaining that is just clogging up the thread.
Salamence is an offensive threat that is dangerous because of its ability to break walls, opening up a team for a sweep by another pokemon. That is the support characteristic, and I don't think that any set of Salamence in the analysis doesn't fit the bill. Even Fire Blast on Choice Band Salamence 2HKO's Skarm with rocks down. It's in a league of it's own, moreso now that it is the lone dragon threat.
Salamence is an offensive threat that is dangerous because of its ability to break walls, opening up a team for a sweep by another pokemon. That is the support characteristic, and I don't think that any set of Salamence in the analysis doesn't fit the bill. Even Fire Blast on Choice Band Salamence 2HKO's Skarm with rocks down. It's in a league of it's own, moreso now that it is the lone dragon threat.
So is that offense or support? Doesn't support mean status, Baton pass, trapping, and all sorts of non-immediate damages?
The Support clause can also be used for when something (Salamence) can kill off walls easily and give something else an easier time sweeping (Lat@s fit this bill). If a Salamence kills a Swampert who expected a DD set then T-Tar will sweep much easier. This is one reason that some people will run both Gyradoes and Salamence, after one weakens a wall the other can sweep easier. Salamence took this to the extreme.
DDnite > DDmence
so, ddnite will qualify as well?
no, hell no.
maybe mixmence, but not ddmence.
Again, coming back to the two types of Salamences: Wall-breaker Mixmence and Sweeper D.D. Mence
First, starting with the wall breaker, Mixmence:
@Mixmence--
Wallbreaker: Job is to defeat 1 enemy pokemon.
Here's the problem though, Salamence is not the only pokemon designed to do this job, and looking at other pokemon meant to take out specific targets, it's got significant weaknesses compared to others.
Summary of the set and performance: Naive with Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Earthquake / Outrage is without a doubt the most effective. I base my opinion on having used this set in 80% of my battles until now, and having used the exact same set with Stone Edge over Outrage pre-platinum. Generally speaking, Mixmence is not as good late game as many other sweepers-- imo. Flygon, Breloom, Lucario, Empoleon, Metagross-- pokemon with a natural resiliance to passive damage and/or a powerful setup sweep strategy are generally better late game. Mixmence's real time to shine is early-mid, where he is able to break defensive loops that would otherwise be very frustrating to beat.
While it is possible that Salamence will be able to take down multiple enemies (usually only likely to happen against slow teams late game), or have itself out-predicted and killed without accomplishing much about, those types of outcomes are relatively rare. Salamence will likely come in the early/mid game against a slower enemy either on a resisted switch or revenge kill, and likely see 1 of 2 likely outcomes.
The two most possible outcomes:
45% chance: Salamence makes 1 kill, but having been forced to use Draco Meteor or Outrage as well as accumulate LO, sand and SR damage, is left weakened both offensively and defensively to the point where it is easily revenged (if not immediately revenged due to being locked in Outrage), so that it will either die or be forced out to be used as little more than death fodder later on (with a slight chance of pulling off one more desperation attack later, but will likely not be given that chance).
45% chance: Salamence dies while having done around a total of 70~90% damage to one or more (ie. 2 pokes with 40% damage each) enemy pokemon.
As a pokemon designed to take out one enemy pokemon, here is the pros/cons:
Pros: Powerful STAB with broad neutral coverage and excellent attacking stats from both sides. This really is what makes Salamence tick as a wallbreaker-- the fact that unlike Infernape, its primary STAB is both widely unresisted and comes from much higher base offensive stats. The nice thing about Mixmence is that he has very good odds to put the hurt on something, and while he somewhat limited to achieving optimum performance early/mid game, he's got relatively good flexibility during that time frame and can come out and do his thing on a number of enemies (anything slow that will naturally be defeated 1 on 1 by mixmence).
Cons: Salamence takes out the enemy at the cost of its own life, AND it has no control over what it kills. Because of LO (which it needs), Sand (which it wants) and SR, Mixmence is falling to easy revenge kill via scarf, priority, or simply faster pokemon. While pokemon like Magnezone, Scarf/bandtar, Scizor all have the capacity to force the kill of certain pre-determined targets, Salamence is unable to stop the opponent from simply switching in Death Fodder while Salamence continues to fall to residual damage and the effects of its own attacks regardless. Compared to more defensively built pokemon as well, such as Skarmory, Rotom-A, Swampert or Vaporeon, who can switch in easily against specific targets and are almost guaranteed to make very good use of turns by achieving specific objectives, Salamence is severely lacking in consistency and dependability.
This is where SR comes in, really denying Salamence the second chance if it hits the wrong target on this step.
If Mixmence were a Yu-Gi-Oh card, it would read: "Sacrifice this monster to destroy one enemy monster, your opponent gets to choose which one."
This would be a really crappy card effect. The reason is a question of resources, simple economics: This is a 1-for-1, you are losing one pokemon (by dropping salamence into a much weaker state) to kill 1 enemy pokemon (or at least weaken some stuff), an even trade if not for the fact that the OPPONENT gets to choose, and can simply make Salamence' efforts in vain with death fodder or just smart switching.
The only reason why Mixmence is "good" economically, (not great, but good) is because in the event it makes the kill, even if severely weakaned it can serve as death fodder (and relatively good death fodder using intimidate), with a slight chance of getting to throw out an extra meteor/rage later on if it gets lucky.
Looking at the picture in a broader sense than sheer comparative resources (how many pokemon you use to make how many kills), Salamence's real strength is in setting pace. Mixmence is all about battle by attrition-- it forces a faster paced game with both sides taking losses (after all, it initiates a 1-for-1 trade). This can be seriously disruptive to teams that depend too much on teamwork to perform (aka. traditional stall and slower forms of bulky offense). In other words, when all of your pokemon rely too much on their teammates being around to perform, your team gets ass-raped by Mixmence because it forces a different pace to the game. Honestly speaking, I think it's a very good thing that there are pokemon who can break the circle jerk of resistance-based defensive switching. Pokemon is a team game, but one based on one-on-one battles-- and it is a BATTLE, it's a FIGHT, the game is and should be based on intelligent sacrifices and a war or attrition.
Offense, Bulky Offense, Semi-Stall, and Dedicated Setup sweep (Setup sweepers following in wake of Hazard/Screen/B-Pass users) are all teams built for and perform excellently in wars of attrition. Salamence's real strength means little to nothing to them in terms of setting pace as all have executable plans that take sacrifices into account (or rather their game plans accomidate for making certain sacrifices at certain points in a given game). In my opinion, this is a necessary skill for truly competitive pokemon-- losing pokemon is a part of the game. You have to build to be able to fight without your whole team, and have a plan that you can both execute and expect to execute regardless of when shit happens and you have to sacrifice. Of course the fact that mence is in the meta means it shapes the meta-- but then that can be said about ANY top 10 OU poke.
People rant about Salamence's power, but it's really easy to ignore the consistency and dependability lost by choosing to use a pokemon like Salamence. The reason why bulky offense (and stall at one poing) was popularized in the first place was due to strong consistency-- which is a huge benefit to playing that style.
If you are using hard-core wall breakers like Mixmence/Mixnape, you ought to know that you lose out on consistency to achieve power. Inversely, if you are choosing to ignore pokemon like Salamence/Infernape, you shouldn't bitch if you can't match it in power-- because you have already forsaken that power for higher consistency.
@DD Mence--
Mid-Late game sweeper: Job is to sweep, that is kill 3+ pokemon consecutively. If it does not kill at least 2, it does not perform its job (considering it is meant to get kills/end the game against weakened opponents).
Summary of Set Performance: Salamence comes in mid-late game when his counters/checks have been fairly weakened, and looks to sweep using +1ATK +1Speed and its powerful attacks.
Pros: Powerful STAB Outrage resisted only by steel backed by respectable Fire Blast and Earth Quake means it has power and excellent coverage when compared to other late-game set-up Sweepers like Luke, Empoleon or Agiligross. You have more power and flexibility than late-game cleaning choice users like Scizor or Flygon.
Cons: You're trying to late-game sweep with only 75% of your HP. That is a big problem. Especially when you're facing sand, possible LO damage, and have no resistance of any kind to priority. Aforementioned other popular set-up sweepers Luke, Empoleon and Metagross all resist Bullet Punch and Extreme Speed, the most common priority attacks, as well as resistance to Sand and Stealth Rock. That does a lot in aiding their sweeping, especially when considering all these pokemon should be aiming to sweep against weakened teams. Late-Game Choice users like Flygon and Scizor also have excellent resistance against passive damage, and thanks to choice items don't even need a turn of set up. Flygon also lacks thunder wave weakness. One can even compare DD mence to the also very powerful Kingdra, who lacks SR weak, resists Bullet Punch, and has flawless Dual STAB.
All in all, DD mence is certainly a good pokemon, but put along side his fellow late-game offensive pokemon, he certainly has his own issues to work out as well.
First, starting with the wall breaker, Mixmence:
@Mixmence--
Wallbreaker: Job is to defeat 1 enemy pokemon.
Here's the problem though, Salamence is not the only pokemon designed to do this job, and looking at other pokemon meant to take out specific targets, it's got significant weaknesses compared to others.
Summary of the set and performance: Naive with Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Earthquake / Outrage is without a doubt the most effective. I base my opinion on having used this set in 80% of my battles until now, and having used the exact same set with Stone Edge over Outrage pre-platinum. Generally speaking, Mixmence is not as good late game as many other sweepers-- imo. Flygon, Breloom, Lucario, Empoleon, Metagross-- pokemon with a natural resiliance to passive damage and/or a powerful setup sweep strategy are generally better late game. Mixmence's real time to shine is early-mid, where he is able to break defensive loops that would otherwise be very frustrating to beat.
While it is possible that Salamence will be able to take down multiple enemies (usually only likely to happen against slow teams late game), or have itself out-predicted and killed without accomplishing much about, those types of outcomes are relatively rare. Salamence will likely come in the early/mid game against a slower enemy either on a resisted switch or revenge kill, and likely see 1 of 2 likely outcomes.
The two most possible outcomes:
45% chance: Salamence makes 1 kill, but having been forced to use Draco Meteor or Outrage as well as accumulate LO, sand and SR damage, is left weakened both offensively and defensively to the point where it is easily revenged (if not immediately revenged due to being locked in Outrage), so that it will either die or be forced out to be used as little more than death fodder later on (with a slight chance of pulling off one more desperation attack later, but will likely not be given that chance).
45% chance: Salamence dies while having done around a total of 70~90% damage to one or more (ie. 2 pokes with 40% damage each) enemy pokemon.
As a pokemon designed to take out one enemy pokemon, here is the pros/cons:
Pros: Powerful STAB with broad neutral coverage and excellent attacking stats from both sides. This really is what makes Salamence tick as a wallbreaker-- the fact that unlike Infernape, its primary STAB is both widely unresisted and comes from much higher base offensive stats. The nice thing about Mixmence is that he has very good odds to put the hurt on something, and while he somewhat limited to achieving optimum performance early/mid game, he's got relatively good flexibility during that time frame and can come out and do his thing on a number of enemies (anything slow that will naturally be defeated 1 on 1 by mixmence).
Cons: Salamence takes out the enemy at the cost of its own life, AND it has no control over what it kills. Because of LO (which it needs), Sand (which it wants) and SR, Mixmence is falling to easy revenge kill via scarf, priority, or simply faster pokemon. While pokemon like Magnezone, Scarf/bandtar, Scizor all have the capacity to force the kill of certain pre-determined targets, Salamence is unable to stop the opponent from simply switching in Death Fodder while Salamence continues to fall to residual damage and the effects of its own attacks regardless. Compared to more defensively built pokemon as well, such as Skarmory, Rotom-A, Swampert or Vaporeon, who can switch in easily against specific targets and are almost guaranteed to make very good use of turns by achieving specific objectives, Salamence is severely lacking in consistency and dependability.
This is where SR comes in, really denying Salamence the second chance if it hits the wrong target on this step.
If Mixmence were a Yu-Gi-Oh card, it would read: "Sacrifice this monster to destroy one enemy monster, your opponent gets to choose which one."
This would be a really crappy card effect. The reason is a question of resources, simple economics: This is a 1-for-1, you are losing one pokemon (by dropping salamence into a much weaker state) to kill 1 enemy pokemon (or at least weaken some stuff), an even trade if not for the fact that the OPPONENT gets to choose, and can simply make Salamence' efforts in vain with death fodder or just smart switching.
The only reason why Mixmence is "good" economically, (not great, but good) is because in the event it makes the kill, even if severely weakaned it can serve as death fodder (and relatively good death fodder using intimidate), with a slight chance of getting to throw out an extra meteor/rage later on if it gets lucky.
Looking at the picture in a broader sense than sheer comparative resources (how many pokemon you use to make how many kills), Salamence's real strength is in setting pace. Mixmence is all about battle by attrition-- it forces a faster paced game with both sides taking losses (after all, it initiates a 1-for-1 trade). This can be seriously disruptive to teams that depend too much on teamwork to perform (aka. traditional stall and slower forms of bulky offense). In other words, when all of your pokemon rely too much on their teammates being around to perform, your team gets ass-raped by Mixmence because it forces a different pace to the game. Honestly speaking, I think it's a very good thing that there are pokemon who can break the circle jerk of resistance-based defensive switching. Pokemon is a team game, but one based on one-on-one battles-- and it is a BATTLE, it's a FIGHT, the game is and should be based on intelligent sacrifices and a war or attrition.
Offense, Bulky Offense, Semi-Stall, and Dedicated Setup sweep (Setup sweepers following in wake of Hazard/Screen/B-Pass users) are all teams built for and perform excellently in wars of attrition. Salamence's real strength means little to nothing to them in terms of setting pace as all have executable plans that take sacrifices into account (or rather their game plans accomidate for making certain sacrifices at certain points in a given game). In my opinion, this is a necessary skill for truly competitive pokemon-- losing pokemon is a part of the game. You have to build to be able to fight without your whole team, and have a plan that you can both execute and expect to execute regardless of when shit happens and you have to sacrifice. Of course the fact that mence is in the meta means it shapes the meta-- but then that can be said about ANY top 10 OU poke.
People rant about Salamence's power, but it's really easy to ignore the consistency and dependability lost by choosing to use a pokemon like Salamence. The reason why bulky offense (and stall at one poing) was popularized in the first place was due to strong consistency-- which is a huge benefit to playing that style.
If you are using hard-core wall breakers like Mixmence/Mixnape, you ought to know that you lose out on consistency to achieve power. Inversely, if you are choosing to ignore pokemon like Salamence/Infernape, you shouldn't bitch if you can't match it in power-- because you have already forsaken that power for higher consistency.
@DD Mence--
Mid-Late game sweeper: Job is to sweep, that is kill 3+ pokemon consecutively. If it does not kill at least 2, it does not perform its job (considering it is meant to get kills/end the game against weakened opponents).
Summary of Set Performance: Salamence comes in mid-late game when his counters/checks have been fairly weakened, and looks to sweep using +1ATK +1Speed and its powerful attacks.
Pros: Powerful STAB Outrage resisted only by steel backed by respectable Fire Blast and Earth Quake means it has power and excellent coverage when compared to other late-game set-up Sweepers like Luke, Empoleon or Agiligross. You have more power and flexibility than late-game cleaning choice users like Scizor or Flygon.
Cons: You're trying to late-game sweep with only 75% of your HP. That is a big problem. Especially when you're facing sand, possible LO damage, and have no resistance of any kind to priority. Aforementioned other popular set-up sweepers Luke, Empoleon and Metagross all resist Bullet Punch and Extreme Speed, the most common priority attacks, as well as resistance to Sand and Stealth Rock. That does a lot in aiding their sweeping, especially when considering all these pokemon should be aiming to sweep against weakened teams. Late-Game Choice users like Flygon and Scizor also have excellent resistance against passive damage, and thanks to choice items don't even need a turn of set up. Flygon also lacks thunder wave weakness. One can even compare DD mence to the also very powerful Kingdra, who lacks SR weak, resists Bullet Punch, and has flawless Dual STAB.
All in all, DD mence is certainly a good pokemon, but put along side his fellow late-game offensive pokemon, he certainly has his own issues to work out as well.
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