The MMA/Boxing/Fighting Sports Thread

[Venom]

I missed this. I believe the comment was referring more to Nelsons ability to take punches and stay in the fight than his actual cardiovascular fitness.




What I believe mirza is saying is you're acting like he's the second coming when all we know for sure is the following

1. He can beat Brock Lesnar, who runs away from punches.

2. He can beat a version of Nog that is 2 Staph infections, a knee surgery and about 4 years past his prime.

3. He can beat Kongo, who has no ground game to speak of.

4. Steve Mazzagatti is a fucking bad referee and stopped the Rothwell fight when he was getting back to his feet. Cain was dominating though.


Nobody is debating that he's a good fighter and certainly in the top 3 guys out there today, but we're a bit more wary of crowning him BEST HEAVYWEIGHT EVAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!11 because he hasn't fought anyone without some kind of glaring hole in their game.

Well, in that case this is the first time I ever hear anyone call having a good chin and likes to brawl "good stamina", and probably the last time I ever will.

Regarding the second comment, no I don't believe he's the best. It just seems a bit immature to call Velasquez "not that great" after all he has done. Apparently not even beating Brock Lesnar, the "fucking monster of the Heavyweight division", the "Velasquez will never be able to deal with his size" guy, it's not enough to satisfy some people.

Call me a nuthugger or whatever you want, I have come to realize this isn't going to stop. Even if he gets through Dos Santos, people will probably be saying how "Overeem will destroy him". Or how other up and coming Heavyweights can beat him. This isn't going to stop. It's not worth me arguing with somebody over the internet on who's better than somebody else. I'll just let time go by and let Velasquez demonstrate why he is the champion in the biggest MMA organization in the world, and why he's there to stay.

Moving on, I'm really interested on how the 'possible' match-up with Edgar vs Henderson. This battle is sure to be interesting. I can see a lot of wrestling going on, but knowing how much of an exiting fighter Henderson is, I'd like to see how Edgar reacts. Those WEC motherfuckers are CRAZY.

 

[Shinryu]

Edgar/Henderson will be interesting, but in the event Edgar loses to Maynard (which is a possibility, given Maynard beat him once before and is a fairly big LW), I could even see Maynard bullying Henderson. And of course, this is all dependent on Henderson beating Pettis as well...

It's really pretty interesting to see who the unified UFC LW Champ will be next year, 4 good fighters all duking it out. And then you have to sort out all the contenders in the meanwhile as well, since Cerrone and Varner are just as hungry as their UFC counterparts to be champ again as well. Plus, you might even have a potential shitstorm if BJ shapes up and decides to move back down...

 

[Trax]

Regarding the second comment, no I don't believe he's the best. It just seems a bit immature to call Velasquez "not that great" after all he has done. Apparently not even beating Brock Lesnar, the "fucking monster of the Heavyweight division", the "Velasquez will never be able to deal with his size" guy, it's not enough to satisfy some people.

If you had read my post, which you clearly didn't fully do (or did with the reading comprehension level of the average third grader) you would've recognized what I was saying is not "Cain is not that great" but "Cain is not proven to be as good as you imply when you post".

Nobody is saying Cain isn't an excellent fighter, but you talk about him like he'd beat 5 Gorillas and a Tiger one after the other in a phone booth with no weapons but a party popper.

Moving on, I'm really interested on how the 'possible' match-up with Edgar vs Henderson. This battle is sure to be interesting. I can see a lot of wrestling going on, but knowing how much of an exiting fighter Henderson is, I'd like to see how Edgar reacts. Those WEC motherfuckers are CRAZY.

Thing is, Henderson has fought a bunch of guys who are in general pretty exciting (say what you will about them, but Njokuani, Cerrone and Varner are rarely in a boring fight), given guys like Edgar and Maynard fight much "safer" fights (i.e. Edgar hit and runs, and Maynard cuddles) I'm not convinced he'll be as exciting when he fights guys like that - I'm excited to see Cerrone with improved wrestling in the UFC though, I'd pay to watch him fight a tree stump.

It's really pretty interesting to see who the unified UFC LW Champ will be next year, 4 good fighters all duking it out. And then you have to sort out all the contenders in the meanwhile as well, since Cerrone and Varner are just as hungry as their UFC counterparts to be champ again as well. Plus, you might even have a potential shitstorm if BJ shapes up and decides to move back down...

UFC LW division is looking fairly good, but I think Varner and Cerrone are probably going to sit underneath guys like Miller, Dunham, Florian and Sherk.

 

[Shinryu]

I doubt Sherk much...Mr. Muscle Shark is getting old, I mean he won a very bad decision over Dunham, unless he remembers he's a wrestler instead of trying to exchange with those stocky little arms, I don't see him amounting to much, not to mention he's been pretty injury prone recently... Ken-Flo I just don't know about him anymore either, I mean he's obviously top material, but he's only challenged for the LW champ twice and fell pretty short both times (incidentally, to both Sherk and BJ). Dunham is definitely good though, and Miller is decent as well.

 

[Trax]

I doubt Sherk much...Mr. Muscle Shark is getting old, I mean he won a very bad decision over Dunham, unless he remembers he's a wrestler instead of trying to exchange with those stocky little arms, I don't see him amounting to much, not to mention he's been pretty injury prone recently... Ken-Flo I just don't know about him anymore either, I mean he's obviously top material, but he's only challenged for the LW champ twice and fell pretty short both times (incidentally, to both Sherk and BJ). Dunham is definitely good though, and Miller is decent as well.

I severely doubt any of those 4 guys I listed will hold the belt (again), that was my point - they are the high end guys but not champions (Dunham may be the exception).. as for the Sherk/Dunham decision: it was fucking close - not really a terrible decision in my view.

 

[Shinryu]

Sherk looked good for like round 1 lol, then the judges seemed to ignore the fact that Dunham was winning rounds 2 and 3 because he had a cut. Hell, whichever one scored it like 30-27 to Sherk was off his rocker...

But I dunno, I could see top WEC people being competitive with those listed 4.

 

[Venom]

If you had read my post, which you clearly didn't fully do (or did with the reading comprehension level of the average third grader) you would've recognized what I was saying is not "Cain is not that great" but "Cain is not proven to be as good as you imply when you post".

Nobody is saying Cain isn't an excellent fighter, but you talk about him like he'd beat 5 Gorillas and a Tiger one after the other in a phone booth with no weapons but a party popper.

If you could point out or QUOTE where I have ever considered Cain Velasquez GOAT, i'd much appreciate it. If what you said was true, I could have easily said that he will totally dominate Dos Santos with his wrestling and will take Dos Santos' punches like nothing.

Thing is, Henderson has fought a bunch of guys who are in general pretty exciting (say what you will about them, but Njokuani, Cerrone and Varner are rarely in a boring fight), given guys like Edgar and Maynard fight much "safer" fights (i.e. Edgar hit and runs, and Maynard cuddles) I'm not convinced he'll be as exciting when he fights guys like that - I'm excited to see Cerrone with improved wrestling in the UFC though, I'd pay to watch him fight a tree stump.

Totally agree with you. I can really see this fight as another "GSP fight" to be honest.

 

[Trax]

Sherk looked good for like round 1 lol, then the judges seemed to ignore the fact that Dunham was winning rounds 2 and 3 because he had a cut. Hell, whichever one scored it like 30-27 to Sherk was off his rocker...

But I dunno, I could see top WEC people being competitive with those listed 4.

Sherk was landing fairly evenly with Dunham late in the second (maybe a bit less, but seeing as he got the early TD I think it's fair enough to score round 2 to Sherk). Rogans shitty commentary made that fight seem like a robbery when it was in fact a close decision that could have easily gone either way under the 10pt must system.


As for the WEC guys being competitive, I think they'll do OK but I don't think you'll see Ben Henderson beating Miller etc - that said I mostly base this around the fact Varner was a top 3 LW in the WEC (until his loss to Cerrone anyway) and he got embarrassed in the UFC by Franca (running away from punches, then trying to lay and pray and getting arm barred).



As an aside: WEC 53 looks fun - Jorgensen vs Cruz and Cerrone vs Horodecki should be great fights and supposedly Palaszewski is fighting Shalorus which would also be good value.

 

[Shinryu]

I dunno, Varner rebounded after the loss to Franca with a win, so 1-1 total in the UFC before moving to WEC. Plus that was 4 years ago, he's much better now obviously.

So eh, guess we'll see, certainly adding any top scrappy WEC LW will make for a good show, as someone noted they put on a show, whereas with the UFC, you see a lot more "boring" game planning and slow paced, with action coming in bursts; hopefully that element from WEC won't get lost.

 

[Trax]

I dunno, Varner rebounded after the loss to Franca with a win, so 1-1 total in the UFC before moving to WEC. Plus that was 4 years ago, he's much better now obviously.

You're right, he has improved.. now he spits out his mouth guard instead of running away.

I want to see Varner vs Kamal again in the hope that Varner gets kicked in the sack a few more times..

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Am I the only person that really, really wishes that they would just stop trying to throw people at Silva for a while? Neither Marquardt nor Okami has anything close to what's needed to put it to Silva, and I want Silva to go back to 205 already and go beat up Shogun.

 

[Shinryu]

I dunno, Okami "technically" has a win listed over Silva, and he's about the last good MW to not have challenged Silva in the UFC. So I at the least would be interested in seeing how well he would do nowdays, as we know Marquardt will probably be flattened.

Besides, Dana has already stated if he wants to go to 205 he'll have to abdicate his MW belt, which Silva isn't keen on doing (also, methinks Dana personally doesn't want one person holding a title in 2 different weight classes consecutively). Regardless, I can see Silva signing up for LHW if someone somehow ever beats him at MW, kinda like how BJ gave up on LW for now to make another run at the WW title.

 

[mirza]

Shogun would kick Anderson's ass. Just saying.

 

[Trax]

Am I the only person that really, really wishes that they would just stop trying to throw people at Silva for a while? Neither Marquardt nor Okami has anything close to what's needed to put it to Silva, and I want Silva to go back to 205 already and go beat up Shogun.

Shogun is injured and set to fight Rashad when he comes back, the earliest he could fight Anderson is like July of next year.

Anderson is fighting in Feb and based on his usual schedule will want to fight again in June if not sooner.


I half expect we'll see Anderson retire pretty soon actually.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Just do what they did for Brock and have Silva fight Rashad for interim, then! I just don't want to see the endless stream of shit fighters being thrown at Silva in 185. Sonnen was as good as it gets, I think, and he's outta commission for a good long time.

 

[Starbuck]

Shogun would kick Anderson's ass. Just saying.

I have to agree with this one. Shogun's the man at 205.

 

[Shinryu]

Well, let's get the predictions out for tomorrow:

Okami > Marquardt: Honestly both are good fighters and I like Marquardt in particular, but this is Okami's time I think, after Belfort rolls over Okami will be the last unique top contender left for Silva, as Marquardt or Sonnen will be rematches. He's been bulking up on his wrestling as well, which can give Marquardt problems.

Rivera > Sakara: Random pick tbh, don't know enough about either fighter, so yeah...

Winner > Siver: Again I don't know too much about either fighter, but I do know Winner was on TUF US/UK, so he has my pick XD

Sadollah > Sobotta: Dunno anything about Sobotta, but I do know Sadollah won TUF somewhere...it still amuses me he managed to even enter TUF despite not having a professional record (despite the fact they're supposed to have one beforehand right?).

Soszynski > Reljic: Boy a lot of people I don't know of on this card (in this case, Reljic), so rooting for the one I'm vaguely familiar with.

 

[Trax]

Just do what they did for Brock and have Silva fight Rashad for interim, then! I just don't want to see the endless stream of shit fighters being thrown at Silva in 185. Sonnen was as good as it gets, I think, and he's outta commission for a good long time.

Rashad wants nothing to do with anyone from Black House right now and Dana is in no rush to have Silva/Machida blocking up the top of the division like Fitch/Kos are at 170.


Besides Anderson should actually beat someone in the running at 205 before getting a title shot eh?

It's not like Anderson is getting bad fighters thrown his way - his 185 defenses have been:

Marquardt, Franklin, Lutter (who missed weight), Henderson, Sonnen, Maia, Leites and Cote - of those guys three looked like they didn't belong in there (Leites, Maia and Cote) and the others gave him some resemblance of trouble

 

[Shinryu]

The only thing is, Kos is a non-factor since he's about to get his block knocked off by GSP in a few months. But I do agree Dana hates fighters from the same team not wanting to fight one another, that does create weird roadblocks.

And to be fair Silva did beat Forrest at 205 (who Dana certainly ranks up there in the top LHW category, which is really the only opinion that matters within the UFC), so it's not like Silva beat a pushover (as fail as Forrest did look against him). For what it's worth, I'd be willing to put my money on Silva to beat someone cocky like Rashad (not too superb a striker whose only hope would be pinning Silva to the mat for 3 rounds, plus he has a questionable jaw Silva could jab at), but not someone akin to Shogun (superior clinch, just as good striking) or maybe Rampage (if he'd ever get back to his old self, he has heavy hands and wrestling when he chooses to use it, probably adapt a similar gnp like Sonnen did).

Anyways just my thoughts on the matter, Silva isn't moving up to 205 regardless for now, but it's fun to speculate. I don't see GSP/Silva happening anytime either, GSP is put in the awkward position of having to move up in weight in most scenarios, which is to his disadvantage; I can only see this bout really happening as a catchweight (force Anderson to cut weight and GSP to fight above his norm), probably might even be a non-title fight (I mean, why would either bother risking their belts, GSP doesn't seem interested and Silva would be put in a rather odd position of having to cut weight to defend anything at 170).

 

[Trax]

The only thing is, Kos is a non-factor since he's about to get his block knocked off by GSP in a few months. But I do agree Dana hates fighters from the same team not wanting to fight one another, that does create weird roadblocks.

Did you see the first GSP vs Koscheck fight - Kos remains the only guy to actually win a round from GSP since the Serra fight (and AFAIK the only guy to take GSP down in the UFC). Assuming Koscheck has been training his wrestling he can at the worst make more of a fight out of it than pretty much anyone else.

 

[Shinryu]

Nah I'll admit I haven't seen their first fight, I just know it ended with GSP winning a decision. Also, Hughes got a takedown on GSP before didn't he in their first fight? That's how he won with an armbar...or am I forgetting my fights.

Regardless I know Koscheck has good wrestling, but GSP is also pretty good himself (I mean, even Hughes a bit past prime couldn't get takedowns on him in their 2nd and 3rd matches and GSP was bringing him down at will), so unless Kos or GSP of them really comes out and dominates the other, it'll move on into a striking match I'd think.

 

[Trax]

Nah I'll admit I haven't seen their first fight, I just know it ended with GSP winning a decision. Also, Hughes got a takedown on GSP before didn't he in their first fight? That's how he won with an armbar...or am I forgetting my fights.

Basically Koscheck took the first round with GSP by way of exchanging take downs and some ground and pound, got taken down in the second and nobody completed a take down in the third. Koscheck legitimately believed GSP couldn't take him down and I think he should have respected the wrestling of GSP more.

As for Hughes/GSP, Hughes got 2 take downs and GSP got one (GSP got the first one) - as an aside that fight ends with the best damn counter I've seen to a Kimura.

Regardless I know Koscheck has good wrestling, but GSP is also pretty good himself (I mean, even Hughes a bit past prime couldn't get takedowns on him in their 2nd and 3rd matches and GSP was bringing him down at will), so unless Kos or GSP of them really comes out and dominates the other, it'll move on into a striking match I'd think.

Koscheck is a better wrestler, credentials wise, than Hughes. Koscheck vs GSP could happen anywhere, I expect it to be mostly striking but I could see either guy spending most of the fight on top on the ground.



Also: Score one for Okami, Nate once again proves to be weak off his back..

 

[Shinryu]

Mmm, maybe it'll be better than I expect...certainly couldn't be worse than GSP's past 2 decisions, Hardy and Alves had no real answers at all for GSP's takedowns.

 

[Venom]

I'm not gonna lie and say that I think Koscheck has been doing his homework. If we look at his past fight with GSP, he didn't get completely dominated. If Koscheck isn't dumb, he knows what GSP's gameplan is, and has probably prepared for this fight more than his past fights. If Koscheck really wants it, he can get it, because he's probably as much as a good wrestler as GSP is.

 

[mirza]

Only problem for him will be that GSP is better off his back and on his feet. Luckily GSP doesn't finish people all that much anymore and Kosh has KO power.

Coule be very interesting. :)

Also, how come no Rampage/Machida talk lol. I realize my boy is gonna get beat and possibly embarrassed but damn.