The MMA/Boxing/Fighting Sports Thread

[latinoheat]

Rampage thought he lost the fight, yet really didn't i had it 2 rounds to 1 that 2nd round was close though.

Yeah Rampage won the fight , he did well to cut off Machida, but i think this was more Machida looked shit, the Shogun loss seems to have fucked him.

His speed and movement were noticeably slower he wasn't even trying to do his usual timing routine till the 3rd when he knew he was losing, his cardio was even worse then usual, its never been the best but he looked more gassed halfway through the second then after 5 rounds with Shogun.

Credit to Rampage he looked more motivated then in forever and he pushed the fight a lot more, but i would still comfortably pick Rashad and Shogun over him.

The highlight of the fight was the standing escape of Rampage's attempted slam.

I have no clue where the division goes from here a ton of contenders yet all at least one good fight away from deserving a title shot, though Dana is obviously wanna cash in on a Rashad/Rampage rematch, somewhere down the line.

There is not even a guarantee Shogun will be back for March he is on schedule, but knees are notorious for setbacks let alone with Shogun's old man knees,Dana loves his interim title fights.

 

[Trax]

Black GSP (Phil "Mr. Wonderful" Davis) looked good, really want to see him with some better opponents soon.

Phil Davis actually passes guard and tries to finish instead of win rounds, so the GSP comparisons can go - he's more like a black Sakuraba :D

Rampage thought he lost the fight, yet really didn't i had it 2 rounds to 1 that 2nd round was close though.

Rampage wasn't so much saying he lost under the sport rules as that he took a beating in the third round and probably took more damage during the fight, IMO.

 

[mirza]

I'm a huge Page fan as you all know and I honestly thought Machida had that decision. Whether you like Rampage or not, you have to admit that goofy motherfucker is classy time and time again. Reminded me so much of the Ninja fight... I'm glad he hasn't lost that.

Didn't somebody say LW's don't hit all that hard? :) Maybe I give him too much credit but Penn's an icon in this sport, as is Hughes. Vets like these guys find ways of winning even when they're not supposed to (see Rampage). Penn could make a last stand at Welterweight and I'd love to see him square off against any of the top guys at 170. And I'd bet he can give any one of those guys hell.

205 title picture is shaping up pretty well. Both Franklin and Griffin can still get a push, Bader and Jones are both up there, Evans is next in line, Rampage just got relevant again, Machida is Machida..good stuff. :)

Also wtf Tyson Griffin. :(

 

[mirza]

http://www.mmafighting.com/2010/11/21/dana-white-bj-penn-gets-jon-fitch-next/

wel there we go lol

 

[Shinryu]

Well that was a quick change of opponents for Fitch XD

I'm all but certain Dana really doesn't like Fitch and doesn't want to give him another title shot, he's pitting him against a guy who has nit only better standup, but great takedown defense as well. I will honestly be rooting for Fitch on this one, he was screwed out of a rematch when they brought Shields in and they're trying to make him irrelevant now by giving him Penn.

 

[mirza]

I doubt Dana White has anything against Fitch, it's just business. Fitch is a tough sell to the mainstream audience because he's boring to watch and wins pretty much every fight via decision. The guy's one of the best and always has been, but those guys arrange matches based on which ones will sell the most tickets.

It's the same reason shitty fighters like Irvin always get matched up with other strikers.

It's the same reason they brought in a boxer and had him fight a fucking wrestler. They knew Couture was near bullet-proof in that fight and they also knew that'd sell extremely well, even if it only worked once.

Also this is pretty random as are most of my posts but latinoheat you definitely know your shit when it comes to Machida...everything you've said about him is spot on. Props to you.

 

[Shiv]

Phil Davis actually passes guard and tries to finish instead of win rounds, so the GSP comparisons can go - he's more like a black Sakuraba :D

I still maintain that he finished Hardy at least 2-3 times if he wasn't such a nice guy! He'll always be black GSP to me, thats the first thought that had come into my mind when I first saw him a few months back and thats how I remembered him :P

Machida just gave Rampage's hands a bit too much credit IMO and just looked to be backing away worried he may get caught again. I'd hope to see a more attacking Machida next time, especially after the success he saw in the last round, it could be a very interesting proposition!

 

[Trax]

I doubt Dana White has anything against Fitch, it's just business. Fitch is a tough sell to the mainstream audience because he's boring to watch and wins pretty much every fight via decision. The guy's one of the best and always has been, but those guys arrange matches based on which ones will sell the most tickets.

You know he temporarily cut Fitch for not wanting to sell his likeness for life, right?

Pretty sure Dana doesn't like Fitch much.

 

[Shinryu]

I doubt Dana White has anything against Fitch, it's just business. Fitch is a tough sell to the mainstream audience because he's boring to watch and wins pretty much every fight via decision. The guy's one of the best and always has been, but those guys arrange matches based on which ones will sell the most tickets.

It's the same reason shitty fighters like Irvin always get matched up with other strikers.

It's the same reason they brought in a boxer and had him fight a fucking wrestler. They knew Couture was near bullet-proof in that fight and they also knew that'd sell extremely well, even if it only worked once.

Also this is pretty random as are most of my posts but latinoheat you definitely know your shit when it comes to Machida...everything you've said about him is spot on. Props to you.

Well Machida is a pretty damn horrible sell (omg I'm some sort of elusive ninja karate guy with nothing to offer except counterpunching AND I robbed Shogun of a win) and Silva has to be one of the worst yet in recent years, unless you find his antics funny. I mean, sure sometimes I find Fitch boring, but the fact is that he wins, and you have to appreciate how he utilizes his moveset so successfully to still take decisions with all the flak judges are getting about scoring and how fighters are continually told to not leave it up to them. It's sad how the casual fans want this to become more of a pseudo boxing/kickboxing excitement and can't appreciate good wrestling and such like what Fitch offers.

 

[mirza]

Me and you and maybe a couple of others appreciate good wrestlers. The mainstream doesn't. And honestly I can see the argument on both sides.

I disagree with you on Machida though. He had to beat several guys before earning his title shot, and he got it because he finished Sokodjojadnaodnae, and KOed Thiago Silva. That made him look much more interesting. Don't forget T. Silva was unbeaten at the time as well.

Not only that he was riding on an unbeaten streak and looked damn near invincible. He didn't lose a single round up until the Shogun fight. On top of that everyone was talking about the Machida era and the next dominant 205er. Who else was a better sell in this case than Lyoto?

Also you're wrong about A. Silva. The guy's an easy sell. He hasn't lost in the UFC and other than the Sonnen fight he's looked godly. He's flashy, likes to embarrass people, and is extremely talented. All that shit makes him look much better. Look what it did for Muhammad Ali.

@trax-Fitch was cut as were several other guys from his camp due to miscommunication from their management. Every fighter that had a contract at the time with the UFC was required to sign their likeness to the UFC. It's just business. It makes sense too..who wants to play a UFC game without the UFC stars? Especially without the #2 Welterweight in the world? Koshcheck was cut too.


And I don't understand why you dislike GSP so much but that's irrelevant.

 

[Vineon]

Theres never anything good about 3 rounds of wrestling (nor 5!). Fitch bores the freaking hell out of me (and many others) and I would not mind never having to see him fight again. It's allowed to call me a casual fan and it's even allowed to believe it nearly an insult! They likely rack in more money to the UFC than hardcore fans who stream all their ppvs on the internet and look like shitbricks on mma wasteland forums like Sherdog's.

I tend agree with Dana in his belief that there is hardly anything more despicable than an mma fan on the internet. Quite an annoying specie, they are.

PS : Yes no need to remind me that I actually find GSP's fights exciting but there 'might' be some level bias there!

 

[Trax]

I'll say this for Fitch; he does try to finish.. he just doesn't try to finish with much variety, for some insane reason the only sub Fitch really tries is RNC - I don't know why he hasn't tried to add the Kimura and Arm Triangle to his game, those two are possibly the best subs for big wrestlers to use and Fitch is one of the biggest in his division. Combine that with the fact he's been fighting guys who are really hard to sub and yeah, Fitch is not going to be finishing many fights.

@trax-Fitch was cut as were several other guys from his camp due to miscommunication from their management. Every fighter that had a contract at the time with the UFC was required to sign their likeness to the UFC. It's just business. It makes sense too..who wants to play a UFC game without the UFC stars? Especially without the #2 Welterweight in the world? Koshcheck was cut too.

They didn't cut Kos and Cain IIRC, but they did cut Fitch and Wellisch.

And I don't understand why you dislike GSP so much but that's irrelevant.

I just hate the whole Jackson camp strategy. Don't pass the guard, don't go for subs, land enough ground and pound to avoid a stand up. Even Fitch at least passes and tries to sub, I can count the number of attempts at finishing GSP has made in the last 2 years on one hand.

 

[Shinryu]

Me and you and maybe a couple of others appreciate good wrestlers. The mainstream doesn't. And honestly I can see the argument on both sides.

I disagree with you on Machida though. He had to beat several guys before earning his title shot, and he got it because he finished Sokodjojadnaodnae, and KOed Thiago Silva. That made him look much more interesting. Don't forget T. Silva was unbeaten at the time as well.

Not only that he was riding on an unbeaten streak and looked damn near invincible. He didn't lose a single round up until the Shogun fight. On top of that everyone was talking about the Machida era and the next dominant 205er. Who else was a better sell in this case than Lyoto?

Also you're wrong about A. Silva. The guy's an easy sell. He hasn't lost in the UFC and other than the Sonnen fight he's looked godly. He's flashy, likes to embarrass people, and is extremely talented. All that shit makes him look much better. Look what it did for Muhammad Ali.

@trax-Fitch was cut as were several other guys from his camp due to miscommunication from their management. Every fighter that had a contract at the time with the UFC was required to sign their likeness to the UFC. It's just business. It makes sense too..who wants to play a UFC game without the UFC stars? Especially without the #2 Welterweight in the world? Koshcheck was cut too.


And I don't understand why you dislike GSP so much but that's irrelevant.

I know Machida's beaten lots of good fighters, I meant more that personality-wise he's a hard sell. Silva, I dunno; for every person who finds his performances funny, there's another who finds them sorta rude and disrespectful. I mean, look at the Maia fight, granted Maia was sorta stupid for trying to get him to play on the ground, but Silva was equally obnoxious for dancing about for the better part of 5 rounds. I mean, if he just simply went and finished off his opponents, that's one thing; parading around like a jackass is another. Most people I would think pay for the event to see fighters fight, not dance around like Silva; sure it's fine for those of us who just watch it through free other means, but for people who pay to see a fight, it probably would come off as a letdown unless you're a super Silva fan or something.

And I'm not totally sure about that whole miscommunication/management thing...after all, Couture wasn't required at all to sign his likeness over, hence why he's in the EA MMA version. It wasn't until they started making the game I'm betting that management was trying to pressure them into signing over their likeness rights in the contracts, which some of them didn't agree with like Fitch.

 

[mirza]

Thats because while the UFC was signing contracts for the Undisputed game Couture and the UFC were having that huge court battle and Couture wasn't even signed with the UFC while that was going on.

@vin-yeah online MMA fans are pretty crazy considering most of us have limited/none experience in the sport but occasionally we do show a sense of understanding. I try to look at MMA from a business perspective because at the end of the day that's the only reason it exists in the first place.

On that note, do any of you guys still actively train/compete? Ever since University started for me I've pretty much had to stop going. Right now I'm focused on school/drinking and have gotten lazy as fuck. What's even funnier is that my weights dropped as I haven't had an appetite for food whats so ever.

I need a new competitive hobby since I really don't have the time and resources for training MMA anymore. :( Any suggestions? And no I've been done with pokemon for a few years now, it just doesn't have the same feel anymore.

 

[Vineon]

I'll say this for Fitch; he does try to finish.. he just doesn't try to finish with much variety, for some insane reason the only sub Fitch really tries is RNC - I don't know why he hasn't tried to add the Kimura and Arm Triangle to his game, those two are possibly the best subs for big wrestlers to use and Fitch is one of the biggest in his division. Combine that with the fact he's been fighting guys who are really hard to sub and yeah, Fitch is not going to be finishing many fights.





They didn't cut Kos and Cain IIRC, but they did cut Fitch and Wellisch.





I just hate the whole Jackson camp strategy. Don't pass the guard, don't go for subs, land enough ground and pound to avoid a stand up. Even Fitch at least passes and tries to sub, I can count the number of attempts at finishing GSP has made in the last 2 years on one hand.

I think little in fact would allow you criticize GSP if you do not at least do the same (and more) to Fitch.

There were 3 fights in GSP's "last 2 years", one of which ended with a finish. At the end of the 4th round against Penn, GSP's frustration had built up from actually trying to finish him. Cornermen throwing the towel is a finish.

From memory, GSP went for subs against Hardy, this was certainly one of the closest fight to be finished by submission you could find. I dont really give a shit if you counted how many sub attempts were made, they were there and they stood out. They are what people remember about the fight.

As for Alves, not so sure anyone is interested to try to knock the guy out standing and GSP never really managed to hold him down for long.

If you go beyond 2 years, Fitch went through hell and was rocked at the very least twice by GSP, Matt Serra was finished and Matt Hughes was finished. I also have no idea how anyone could even accuse GSP of not trying to pass guard.

It seems like complete horseshit to me to pretend GSP has not tried to finish.

 

[Trax]

I think little in fact would allow you criticize GSP if you do not at least do the same (and more) to Fitch.

Fitch at least passes guard and tries for subs.. GSP basically sits in guard/half guard (with the odd late in the round pass to side control) for the vast majority of his fights.

I can confidently say that BJ Penn has never showed up to a fight in good enough shape to grapple for 5 rounds - even when he was on top of Pulver for 2 rounds he ran out of gas something fierce (to the point that Pulver with a hyper-extended arm was beating him silly in the third with body shots on the ground, interestingly to me it looked like Penn cranked the Armbar he had on Pulver in the second after the bell which probably caused the hyper extension).

 

[Vineon]

I can confidently say that BJ Penn has never showed up to a fight in good enough shape to grapple for 5 rounds

Whether this is true or not for Penn's recent fights matters not. The point was that GSP tried to finish Penn just like he tried to finish Hardy. You claim that GSP does not try to finish. He also had much more success at it than Fitch did.

According to FightMetric, GSP attempted 6 submisions against Hardy, moved 6 times to side control against Penn, 8 against Hardy and added 2 mounts. Those being the successful pass attempts only, a number of other attempts failed.

GSP also delivers an insane amount of strikes once on the ground, he doesnt keep it to a minimum so that the fight doesnt get stood up, as you imply. He certainly hits a whole lot more on the ground than Fitch does.

The only Fitch fight thats on the website is against Alves, the 2nd time, in which he attempted no sub and very little guard passing.

 

[Trax]

According to FightMetric, GSP attempted 6 submisions against Hardy, moved 6 times to side control against Penn, 8 against Hardy and added 2 mounts. Those being the successful pass attempts only, a number of other attempts failed.

GSP also delivers an insane amount of strikes once on the ground, he doesnt keep it to a minimum so that the fight doesnt get stood up, as you imply. He certainly hits a whole lot more on the ground than Fitch does.

The only Fitch fight thats on the website is against Alves, the 2nd time, in which he attempted no sub and very little guard passing.

Lets take a more reasonable comparison: Fitch vs Alves II, GSP vs Alves (seeing as Dan Hardy has an awful ground game and was getting tooled on the ground by Marcus Davis of all people).

In 3 rounds GSP took his back once (and Alves powered back to his feet from it), Fitch on the other hand took his back twice and tried multiple submissions - by my count 2 RNC attempts and an attempted Arm Triangle (p.s. fight metric is shit for recording submission attempts).

 

[Vineon]

In 3 rounds GSP took his back once (and Alves powered back to his feet from it), Fitch on the other hand took his back twice and tried multiple submissions - by my count 2 RNC attempts and an attempted Arm Triangle (p.s. fight metric is shit for recording submission attempts).

I'd still rather trust it over the memory of someone on the internet (or mine!). I you use the FightMetric comparison still, GSP attempted more subs and pass attempts on Alves. I certainly wont try to find both fights on the internet and attempt the analysis myself. I'm annoyed enough that you reduced the comparison to a man both fighters couldn't do much to other than take down.

Interestingly, Fitch WILL fight Penn, from which we'll draw much better comparisons. Thank god for that match-making.

Will you still admit that GSP clearly tried to finish both Hardy and BJ, which accounts for 2/3 of his fights in the last 2 years? Now don't try to highlight both fighters' weaknesses and just answer the question. Will you admit that he passed guard multiple times against both? That he hit an insane amount of strikes on the ground? In other words, that your earlier assessments were complete bullshit?

 

[Twisted Kneebar]

post.

 

[Twisted Kneebar]

Fitch at least passes guard and tries for subs.. GSP basically sits in guard/half guard (with the odd late in the round pass to side control) for the vast majority of his fights.

lol are you insane?

 

[Venom]

I'm guessing he missed the Dan Hardy vs GSP fight

Also, interesting read: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/523221-maiquel-falco-vs-gerald-harris-conspiracy-in-the-ufc

 

[Trax]

I'd still rather trust it over the memory of someone on the internet (or mine!). I you use the FightMetric comparison still, GSP attempted more subs and pass attempts on Alves. I certainly wont try to find both fights on the internet and attempt the analysis myself. I'm annoyed enough that you reduced the comparison to a man both fighters couldn't do much to other than take down.

GSP only did more if you count the 4th and 5th rounds, something Fitch didn't have the option to do seeing as their fight was 3 rounds - if you count the first 3 (and ignore half guard, seeing as Half Guard supports my statements) Fitch has 2 Back Mount and 1 Side Control to GSPs 1 Back Mount.

Will you still admit that GSP clearly tried to finish both Hardy and BJ, which accounts for 2/3 of his fights in the last 2 years? Now don't try to highlight both fighters' weaknesses and just answer the question. Will you admit that he passed guard multiple times against both? That he hit an insane amount of strikes on the ground? In other words, that your earlier assessments were complete bullshit?

GSP made no attempts to actually finish BJ beyond his usual sit in half guard and punch to a decision (though I'll give you that he did turn up the heat a bit from his usual in Round 4 when Penn wasn't even defending himself), however BJ unlike Fitch, Alves etc can't actually take a sustained beating 5 rounds. As for the Hardy fight I honestly didn't even watch it,


On an unrelated note this error of tweeting made me rofl

 

[Vineon]

GSP only did more if you count the 4th and 5th rounds, something Fitch didn't have the option to do seeing as their fight was 3 rounds - if you count the first 3 (and ignore half guard, seeing as Half Guard supports my statements) Fitch has 2 Back Mount and 1 Side Control to GSPs 1 Back Mount.





GSP made no attempts to actually finish BJ beyond his usual sit in half guard and punch to a decision (though I'll give you that he did turn up the heat a bit from his usual in Round 4 when Penn wasn't even defending himself), however BJ unlike Fitch, Alves etc can't actually take a sustained beating 5 rounds. As for the Hardy fight I honestly didn't even watch it,


On an unrelated note this error of tweeting made me rofl

According to FightMetric, GSP had a full mount and got Alves's back twice, excluding failed attempts. He also threw about three times the amount of strikes on the ground than Fitch did, counting only the first 3 rounds.

BJ was finished. The way GSP's frustration had built up at the end of the 4th round, when he punched the fence, clearly shows he wasn't interested in cruising to a decision. What do you mean by "his usual", in the 3 fights leading to Penn's fight, had had finished 2 of his past 3 opponents. He went nuts on a turtling Serra and submitted Hughes early. GSP's "usual" is apparently fights getting finished 65% of the time. Fitch's last 7 fights were decisions. That's all fine though, even though most of those fights were against mid tier talent, at least he 'tries'.

As for missing Hardy's fight, that is a problem if you want to assess anything about GSP's recent performances. That was his last fight.

 

[Shinryu]

...did I miss something here? Why are we all arguing about GSP and whether or not he finishes opponents?